I'm thinking of buying a Hi-Fi/HC system for about 50/50% use. After a little research I'm inclined to buy B&W but I'm not quite sure which. I'm hesitating between the 704 and the DM 604 S3. Is the extra money worth while? Is my small room (5 by 4 meters) big enough for this?
And for the A/V ampli. I was thinking about a Cambridge. 540R I think. Would this be enough for the 704 or would a "bigger" model be in order? Rottel?
If you could induldge me with a few moments of your time I would apreciate it.
The 704 is much better than the 604 and it really is worth the extra money. Also a pair of 705 with an active subwoofer would be a good choice.
The 704 is actually a little easier load to the amp than the 604. The 540R is ok, but if possible a more powerfull receiver or a separate power amp could help.
Ramiro
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If forgot to mension that for the after speakers I was thinking of someting smaller. Probably a DM 600 S3. As for the central I haven't put much tought into it yet as I will start by buying the 2 main speakers and only later the rest. I'm also hesitating between series 600 or 700.
I agree almost completely with landroval. The only thing I would comment on would be that although the paper specs say the 704 is easy to drive, I find it needs a bit more grunt than the 600 series.
I don't know the Cambridge and looking at the specs it seems powerful but I wonder what can be achieved at this price. I don't see specs for slew rate or maximum current delivery so it's difficult for me to say if it will be up to the job. The NAD T753 would be the minimum that I would attempt to use with 704s, and I would think it a better match with the likes of NAD T763, Rotel 1056 or Arcam AVR300. If the Cambridge is similarly capable as the 753, I'd be surprised.
Also, don't discount the 705+sub idea. Provided the sub is a good sub (REL Stampede or better), you will get a good result for both music and surround sound.
If you've just bought a new DVD player then please ignore everything below this!
If you really want to setup a decent system, don't discount the source in all this. Although the DVD player is meant to just read digits off a disc, I find that different players sound very different in real life. For example, I had a customer come into the shop on Saturday and he said 'but all DVD players are just reading the digital data off the disc so it should be the same'. I put in a Pioneer 565 and compared it to an Arcam DV79 and it took 2 notes (Piano piece - Ludovico Einaudi Le Onde) for him to say 'oh'. Then I showed him that it's even better if he used the analogue outputs from the DV79 and he could tell the difference for that too. This was done using a simple piano piece so with really complicated music you can understand that it gets even more important to have the better player.
Since you said that the aim is 50/50 music/AV, then it becomes more important to have a better player than a bargain basement one. If you want to cover DVD-A and SACD, it becomes difficult since I haven't heard decent DVD-A and SACD reproduction from any player yet and I think this is due to the manufacturers still trying to get the mastering right as much as anything else. If you don't need to cover DVD-A and SACD, have a listen to something like the Arcam DV78 or better to hear what the difference is. Since your requirement is 50/50 music/AV, it makes sense to invest a little more in the source in my view, even to the detriment of the speakers if you have to.
Regards, Frank.
Ramiro
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Tks for the input
I haven't had the chance to listen to the 705 + sub comb and I'll try to do that but I'm naturaly more inclined for the big brother version.
I checked the amplis you said and they're all a bit too expensive. Maybe the NAD T753 could be looked at. I have to listen to it! You think it isn't worth buying the 704/705 without an ampli as good as this? I should perhaps stick to the 604 + Cambridge?
For the players I was thinking about a seperate CD and DVD player. For the first maybe a Cambridge 540 or 640C if the full cambridge version goes else a Marantz could be an option. Any ideas about the best model for this?
For the DVD player I haven't put much tough about it yet.
Cheers
Ramiro
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I forgot to mension. What about cables. Which should I use in all of this?
I'd recommend to stay with the 700-series even if you get the 540R. I dont think they need more grunt than the 604's, but of cource if you can get the T753 you should.
Ramiro
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I didn't find the Marantz you were talking about. Did you mean the SR8300? It looks good enough anyway.
I'm happy you say that. I really feel the 700 series. Excelent sound & design
I understand the inclination, but I disagree with landroval about the ease of drive of the 700 series. I've used them quite a bit now and they are definitely harder work than the 600 series. Any old 30 watt amp can drive 600 series - even 603s, but no 30-watter can drive any 700 series speaker. It would be great if you could build a system with the 700 series on the end since the 700 series speakers are so much more capable than the 600 series. However, if the amplifier you use does not have enough grunt to do the speakers justice, you will very quickly become tired of the system. If you have an easier load on the amp, then you will get longer terms satisfaction. In many ways it won't have the occasional magic that you'd get with the 700 series system, but you wouldn't suffer from the much more prevalent inadequacies of a back-end heavy system.
Therefore, I suggest you look again at the 600 series and match with as good a CD/DVD/receiver combination you can put your money towards. Also, don't discount the Arcam DVD players - they are very musical and one Arcam DVD player may be all you need, provided you cable it up correctly. Cabling depends entirely on what electronics you choose. If you go with NAD then a neutral cable is correct. The Arcams are a bit warm so a slightly lean cable would be better in this situation, but you need to let your dealer guide you since he will also know what he can get a hold of locally.
regards, Frank.
nikofdus
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I have B&W 601S3 fronts, 600S3 rears. I am looking for a center. I believe LCR60 would be the perfect match...is that true or could I go in for a LCR600? On the receiver side, I am trying to decide between H/K AVR4550, Marantz SR5400OSE, Yammy RXV650.Please help me decide.Which of the above would bring the best out of my speakers?WOuld B&W speakers be considered warm, bright or somewhere in between? my listening is 50/50 for music and movies. cheers
Ramiro...if you can get a copy of the October issue of WHat Hi-Fi Magazine, they have an excellent buyer's guide in this issue that covers everything from speakers to dvd players. It might help in your decisions. All of the equipment you have mentioned is covered in this guide.
The LCR600 has same drivers than the 601 so that would be the obvious choice.
The SR5400OSE would be my choice for receiver. It sounds warm but more detailed than the AVR4550. The RX-V650 is not very musical and probably wont be a good match with metal dome tweeters.
Depending on what type of TV & where its placement is, you may be able to get away with using an *unshielded* 601 as center.
The LCR600 is good but it's big & bulky as hell. I was not impressed with the LCR60.
I have 603/601/LCR600. My brother has 601/601/601. I have been kicking myself for spending more than 2x extra on the LCR600 than a single 601.
My dealer only sells 601 in pairs, so if you go that route you will have a 6.1 system.
Anonymous
Posted on
Hi all, Sorry to but in but seeing as there are some very good points raised here I'd like to throw a bit more into the mixture. Ramiro, Something to think on: A speaker only makes the signal it receives from an amplifier (before that a CD/DVD player) audible. If you have poor source and poor amplification and good speakers all you'll hear is poor sound through nice speakers. Now I know you can't do this all at once so you have to start somewhere. CD/DVD technology is moving all the time as is AV amp technology. Speakers, well they seem to stay pretty much the same. Basically you'll probably keep your speakers longer than anything else. To get round the DVD/CD problem up to the $500 range most players will sound very similar they all use basically the same transports and DACs. However if you get one of these and then add an external DAC you can really improve things. I've yet to hear a $3000 player match a $200 DVD player with a $1000 DAC. The reason: A good DAC makes up for all the shortcomings of your DVD/CD player. Not many dealers like to admit this. It can be quite good fun going into a dealer putting a tatty old CD player and DAC on the counter and saying 'That's what you have to beat!' The dumb ones are great 'cause they actually try.... Like I said, worth a thought.
Well, that's not quite true now is it? When you use an external DAC, you become much more susceptible to jitter. This is because of 2 things: 1) the buffering needed for the S/PDIF connection introduces masses of jitter, 2) the inadequate connectors used on most (if not all) optical cables causes errors and yet more jitter. It's easy to distinguish the jitter problems. The sound becomes more disjointed. There's nothing wrong with it per se, it just doesn't sound as cohesive. Now of course, you do get extra goodies with an external DAC, predominantly in terms of spacial cues, such as bigger soundstage and better tonality, but the screwed up pace of the DAC makes for an ultimately less involving listen, simply because the timing cues are off just that little bit.
The only DAC I've heard which I think actually works is the Chord Electronics DAC64, and even then it depends on the transport...
Regards, Frank.
Anonymous
Posted on
Hi Frank, Don't remember saying anything about using a Toslink cable. What's wrong with 75 ohm COAX? Most DACs have this connection. Far superior to an optical lead. I'll agree with you about the toslink cable. I haven't heard one yet that doesn't sound flat. As for Jitter correction most upsampling DACs will do there utmost to solve this. Let's face facts here, you talk about Phase issues with DAC's? At the price range we're talking about the speakers will have far more phase issues than the DAC! With regards the DAC 64. It was designed as a transport independent DAC. If you remember the mark 1 was released a long time before the 4K Blu. It was quite a while before the upgraded mark II came out. The whole idea of the buffer technology is to eliminate the timing issues caused by inferior transports and poor cabling. Which, lets face it, it does superbly well. The DAC 64 works exceptionaly well with any transport. All it means is the better the transport the less you need to use the buffering. It's not until you connect it to a top of the range CD player that you start to notice the differences in transports. There are plenty of other DACs out there that are not the equal of the DAC 64 but certainly far better than anything you'll find in a $1000 CD player. Perpetual technologies, MF, DCS (Bit dear this one) to mention but a few.
What you've described with jitter is a problem common in most cheap CD players due mainly to the quality of the DAC's and the fact they share the same power supply as the transport. I really don't see how adding an external DAC with a seperate power supply can fail to be an improvement over a cheap CD player with poor a poor quality DAC. As found in most sub £1000 CD players.
Well Anonymous, we'll just have to agree to differ I guess.
I mentioned the toslink just to cover the optical side of the equation, not because you mentioned it. I agree that coax is generally preferable, though I have had one or two situations where toslink has been better than coax (on a DAC64!) so go figure!
However, the jitter-induced timing and phase problems have been prevalent for years. I remember how a Linn Karik/Numerik 'sounded' better in terms of resolution and space, but that musically I preferred the solo Karik for its better timing, even though the Linn used a master clock on the two units!
The phase issues remain a major concern of mine since once they come through and get amplified, they are a significant problem at the speaker end. I am not sure that the combined phase problem being amplified by the amplifier is not worse than the phase issues exhibited by the speakers at this level.
As to reducing jitter, the most effective way of doing this (as I understand it) is to have both DAC and transport mounted in the same unit. This means you don't have to buffer the datastream between the transport and DAC. Naim Audio do this and put the power supply in a separate case to get the large magnetic and noisy effects of the toroidal transformer away from the more delicate signal electronics in the head unit. As a result their player has one of the lowest (if not the lowest) jitter rates of any player in the world. Linn kept power supplies, transport and DAC all in one case with the Sondek CD12 and their player also had very low jitter rates.
I have quite a bit of experience with the DAC64, both old and new. The DAC64 is as susceptible to transports as pretty much any other DAC I've tried, irrespective of buffering. For example, it's a happy combination with the Linn Genki but a very unhappy combination with the Linn Ikemi which is twice the price of the Genki. Also, I've found that DVD transports work very well with the DAC64, very often better than the equivalent CD transports which is really rather odd. The point is I can never predict when it will work well or not, so customers usually bring their transport to ensure satisfactory results.
In my experience most CD players, sub £1000 or not, sound better using their internal DAC than being used as a transport into a processor. By sound better, I mean they generally display better timing, a classic case of jitter and phase problems at source.
But that's just my view, and you're entitled to yours of course.
Regards, Frank.
Anonymous
Posted on
Hi Frank, I see what your saying, I can't agree but I doubt we'll convince each other....! I find it interesting what you say about the DAC 64. I've had a lot of problems with this little beast and all with DVD players. Expecially high end ones like the LINN UNIDISK and TAG DVR32. Mainly connection problems, i.e. connection being dropped or missing the first couple of seconds of tracks. No matter what i've tried i've been unable to get round the problem. Every CD player i've tried has worked a treat. Included in this are The CD12 and 47LABs PiTracer + a lot of lesser CD players. I actually prefer the CD12/DAC 64 combination! You can chase the jitter ghost all day but a lot comes down to personal taste....
Fair enough. I haven't heard of problems as you describe them, but obviously you are getting them. Perhaps it's a dodgy DAC64? I also know that the early DAC64s had a much closer lock tolerance. Later DAC64s had a wider tolerance. This is just a firmware change. However, it does affect how the DAC sounds. I prefer the older tighter tolerance version. It just seems to have better pace. As to the CD12, we have several customers who upgraded theirs with a DAC64, and it's a definite improvement over the stock DAC in the CD12, so no argument there. I was using that and the Naim as examples of an alternative way of finding a solution. I wonder, for example, how the CD12 would sound if it had the DAC64 technology in its own chassis instead of a Linn DAC? I'm fairly sure it would sound better. The odd thing is there is a well known solution to this jitter issue. Currently, everyone uses S/PDIF for coax and Toslink for optical connections. And yet, there is a standard called I2S which can be used and will provide unbufferred output with lower jitter than can be provided through the other interfaces. There's very few players on the market with this interface and I just don't understand why this is the case since there are no downsides if it's implemented well.
