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Speaker Repair Query

 

New member
Username: Pmaxp

Sag Harbor, NY United States

Post Number: 1
Registered: Jan-13
Hello All. I am new to the forums.

I have a pair of KEF K-120 speakers that were bought new years ago. I just discovered that the foam surrounds to the woofers have disintegrated. Internet searches reveal many sources for DIY foam replacement kits. Can someone recommend a vendor that are the "go to" people for such a kit? Thanks
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17619
Registered: May-04
.

Parts Express.
 

New member
Username: Pmaxp

Sag Harbor, NY United States

Post Number: 2
Registered: Jan-13
Thanks. I came across this firm that sells a product tailored for the KEF k-120 speakers' woofer surround. Are these folks acceptable as well?

http://www.simplyspeakers.com/kef-speaker-foam-edge-repair-kit-fsk-6.5.html
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 54
Registered: Dec-12
You may want to consider contacting KEF directly. I am surprised you have not mentioned that.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17642
Registered: May-04
.

There's no need to contact KEF directly. Ornello is surprised other people can draw breath without his approval. Ignore him.



Foam surrounds had many advantages over other materials at the time of their design. How a speaker diaphragm is terminated at its outer edge determines, in part, its compliance within the speaker enclosure (cabinet). Foam surrounds were commonly applied to sealed systems (acoustic suspension systems) where a heavier diaphragm was called for. Unfortunately, foam surrounds have not proven to be very durable over the years. Therefore, the industry for replacing these surrounds has become a popular source for keeping good sounding speakers going for another few decades.

The numerous on line retailers for these repair kits all by from one or two vendors who are themself responsible for manufacturing the surrounds. Therefore, the kits are all pretty interchangeable as far as quality. Who you buy from is not as important as whether or not you want to try the repair yourself.

The surround will serve to center the voice coil within its gap. Most speakers have very little room for error in the aignment of their voice coil. In a factory set up this process is performed with the assistance of a jig which assures proper alignment. The individual using the repair kit obviously lacks that advantage. Do a poor job of centering the diaphragm and you'll hear the driver scrape on its motor system as you play music. This will result in an unacceptable system sound and you'll need to cut off the new surround and try everything again or replace the driver completely. Doing the refoaming job correctly isn't that difficult though for someone who is doing the job for the first time, smaller diameter drivers are easier to repair than are larger drivers. Once you apply the glue to the surround and place it on the diaphragm, that's it, there's very little room for error or repositioning the surround. So you'll need to be very steady and very sure of yourself when you do this repair. I've done the repair several times so it's not impossible to do well if you take your time.

KEF no longer supports these older models as they no longer manufacturer the old style drivers and are under no obligation to keep thirty year old speakers up and running. I suspect contacting KEF would only provide you that information.


There are numerous resources for repairing drivers if you decide the the job is a bit more daunting than you first thought. There are several videos on line which will show you how to go about the process. Watch those videos and decide whether this is within your skill set. Parts Express or many other shops - possibly there's a speaker repair shop in your area, check with the pro music retailers - will do the job for you if you decide that's the better route. The cost is minimal compared to buying a new driver after you misalign the old one.




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Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 55
Registered: Dec-12
It would be best if the manufacturer were given the opportunity to service the speakers. If they cannot do it, they would be in the best position to recommend other remedies.

This should be self-evident.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17645
Registered: May-04
.

It should be self evident the NS100's are not the best speaker ever made with the exception of the four way Kenwoods. But that fact escapes you too since you have no earthly idea what time and phase have to do with a speaker and you are unwilling to learn anything new.


KEF hasn't manufactured specific driversmeant for old systems in many, many years. It's why the original 3/5a design eventually had to be adandoned in favor of new drivers. They do not continue to build drivers in perpetuity. They have no stock of drivers for replacement and they are not interested in one off repairs of decades old speakers.

They are in the business of selling new speakers, not keeping old speakers running. What part of that escapes your comprehension now?




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Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 58
Registered: Dec-12
Would it not be best if the manufacturer, not some self-appointed internet 'expert', told him that, IF in fact it is true?

Do you really think that KEF has no interest in repairing their customers' older equipment? I believe you are thoroughly mistaken.

Repairs are a significant source of revenue.

I easily found this:

http://www.kef.com/html/en/service/warranty_info/index.html

and this:

http://www.speakerrepair.com/page/category/kef-re-edge-kits.html

and the best band in the known universe:

http://youtu.be/A_YX4l_UKsI
 

New member
Username: Pmaxp

Sag Harbor, NY United States

Post Number: 3
Registered: Jan-13
Here is the info from the KEF-USA website. I also called their parts person and am awaiting a response.

"How long do you support old models?
It is our policy to maintain a healthy back-up of Reference Series parts for a period up to ten years. All other models are supported up to eight years from last date of production. In some cases, stocks of parts can become exhausted before our policy date, due to supplier problems, in these rare cases we will do our best to offer an alternative. For those speakers outside of the serviceable date, it is unlikely that we will be able to support with any spare parts, however it is worthwhile contacting your nearest local distributor who may have parts in stock that are no longer available from the factory."
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 60
Registered: Dec-12
Well, as I said, I would start with KEF and see what happens.
 

New member
Username: Pmaxp

Sag Harbor, NY United States

Post Number: 4
Registered: Jan-13
The KEF-USA repair/service department person called me back. They would service the woofer surrounds for $130 each and the cones for $160 each. He could not recommend anybody in NYC who could do the work. He cautioned me about doing it myself.

So does anyone in the eCoustics community know of a good repair place in NYC or Long Island?

Thanks
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2974
Registered: Oct-07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mERI3jlDjJU

result of a 30 second search on youtube for 'speaker surround'.

Doesn't look THAT hard.....now does it?

What IS KEF going to do with the cones, anyway? They should be OK unless somebody stuck a pencil thru one.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17651
Registered: May-04
.

It's not that difficult. Unless you screw it up. Then you start over. Smaller drivers are easier to successfully repair than are larger drivers. The K120 looks rather easy.

I would give a call to any of the larger audio shops in NYC and ask for a repair shop recommendation. There should be several places which will take on your project for less money than KEF is asking. Just ask if they guarantee their work and for how long. Compare your cost of a diy repair vs letting a shop be responsible. It's hardly the end of the world even if you aren't perfect in your repairs.


From the pricing I see on the web, you coud easily buy a replacement speaker of the same type for less than it would cost to ship the speakers to and from KEF plus their repair charge. I'd say this is KEF's way of saying you're better off not using KEF for this repair.






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Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 62
Registered: Dec-12
No, I say that you should go to KEF for the repair. The repair cost is peanuts compared to new.
 

New member
Username: Pmaxp

Sag Harbor, NY United States

Post Number: 5
Registered: Jan-13
Jan: Thank you very much for the useful advice. What would you recommend I look at if I were to replace these?

Take care,

Peter
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17655
Registered: May-04
.

When I said you could easily buy replacements of the same type I was simply looking on line at the price being asked for your speakers. They appear to be at reasonable prices for what seems to be a well thought of speaker from KEF.

I've sold KEF for years and have admired their technology and products. Their consistency between lines and models is what I think of as the best a speaker company can do; have an idea how live music sounds and refine your products to reflect that idea from the least expensive to the most expensive product you offer. Their current line is no less consistent than their previous products have been. Buying a low to mid line speaker still provides a good chunk of what is available in their Reference line gear. IMO, if a speaker company has 35 speaker models in their line and they have no consistency between models, then they're leaving it to me to get lucky and choose a good speaker.


I seldom do recommendations since there are so many lines and models to choose from, particularly if you include pre owned products. I have no real idea what might be available to you at any one time. And I certainly don't have your ears, your room and your equipment. I will say the BBC inspired speaker lines from England all have a very similar approach to speaker design and all have that same consistency among products. The Uni-Q line from KEF has great advantages to those listeners who desire a very cohesive music presentation. The Spendor line is a bit more upscale in price but offers a very listenable presentation when paired with the appropriate gear. Harbeth has long been a studio monitor reference and is, IMO, the pinnacle of this type of design. Harbeths tend to demand very high quality gear in front of them.

On the other hand, single driver systems have caught on with many listeners. Keeping the design simple has numerous benefits to the listener. In general, the single driver speakers offer high electrical sensitivity which makes the most of even a modest amplifier. http://fullrangedriver.com/

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html




Good luck.




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Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 67
Registered: Dec-12
If I were you, I would locate a dealer who sells KEF and visit some others too. Most better shops will let you take stuff home and try it. Avoid the discount places, as it is difficult to evaluate and compare speakers at most of them.
 

New member
Username: Pmaxp

Sag Harbor, NY United States

Post Number: 6
Registered: Jan-13
Wow, thank you so much. FYI, I am driving these speakers with a Yamaha AX-592 amplifier, probably low-end in your audio universe. Again, I appreciate the advice. I look forward to looking around.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17658
Registered: May-04
.

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/682815.html#POST1956655



https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/643339.html





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Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2978
Registered: Oct-07
It should also be noted that Magnepan won't play SUPER loud even if given huge amounts of power.
No upper power limit is generally given for Maggies, anyway.
MY 1.6s....the model immediately prior to the current 1.7, has a 4 amp fuse in the tweeter / mid circuit. to me this implies a total of about 8 amps capacity and maybe 300 watts.
Dynamic capacity if far higher.

But, don't worry about that if you like the panel presentation. Many users, myself included do or at one time made use of sub-100 watt amplifers and even tubes. The load represented by most Magnepans is not all that bad. Low sensitivity? yes....but no wacky reactive loading or impedance dips to sub 2ohm territory. Any (nearly) amplifier capabable of driving a 4 ohm load at 100+ clean watts will work. This lets OUT most of the available HT receivers.

The 'baby' Maggie does indeed go for 600$ and is factory direct ONLY. The hook? You can return 'em for credit if you want to go upline. The used market for 'em is brisk even though shipping CAN be a PIA. And YES, better stuff upstream yields better results. Don't go nuts.

The DOWNSIDE to panels? Well, they need space. While the sides directly left and right are in 'nulls'.......they should be 3feet or MORE from the front wall. Slight toe in, crossing in front or back of the primary listener is a decent start while tweeters 'in' or 'out' and mylar 'front' or 'back' are ripe for discussion.

I've owned panels for 30 years and am well acquainted with setup, limits and capabilities.

If you want to just hear something different, when you take your KEFs into the city for refoaming, check out the local Maggie dealer.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 68
Registered: Dec-12
The main things about Magnepan speakers that I don't like are their size and the fact that they are dipolar. I like boxes, if they're done right. They do seem weird in their presentation, but they do sound pretty good.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17659
Registered: May-04
.

"The main things about Magnepan speakers that I don't like ...


No one cares.

You have no facts beyind what you read in a marketing brochure.

You are an internet troll.

Go do your complaining somewhere else.




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Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 69
Registered: Dec-12
But I'm not the only one who feels that way about Magnepans.

You are a rather intolerant one, aren't you? Considering that you really don't know what you are talking about most of the time....

Why are you on here?

The poster has really just two choices: repair or replace the speakers. I would not suggest Magnepans, really, not because they are not good, but perhaps because they are rather large compared to what he is currently using. I don't think Magnepans sound bad at all. I (and others) dislike them for other reasons. But in any event, they are rather large, not at all like what he has now:

http://audio-database.com/KEF/speaker/k120.JPG
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17660
Registered: May-04
.



You wouldn't suggest the speakers because they are to you ... "large".





I don't know how to respond. That is either totally or absolutely More likely both.



That "other people" feel a speaker is undesireable is now important to you? But not when we're discussing another speaker that you like.


Well, yes, that's what your ... uh, ... "advice" as amounted to from day one.



"The poster has really just two choices: repair or replace the speakers"




WOW! Great insight.




Gald to have you on the forum.




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Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 70
Registered: Dec-12
Jan:

I would question your qualifications to offer advice. Magnepans are nothing at all like what he has now. He now owns very small speakers, and however good Magnepans may sound, they are, GASP! (stay with me now, Jan) NOT small speakers!

He can either repair these or replace them, but I hardly think that Magnepans are a suitable replacement for small speakers, however good they may sound.

Personally, I would suggest something else smallish from KEF, B&W, Spendor, or other British manufacturers, because they will have a similar overall sound.

He did not ask about big speakers at all.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1528
Registered: Jul-07
Why don't you let Peter decide Ornello, rather than imposing your own limitations on things ? What YOU think is suitable or not is really moot. Perhaps sound is more important than size.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 71
Registered: Dec-12
And perhaps not! Perhaps size is more important than sound! It is Jan who wants shove Magnapans down his throat!

I think Magnepans sound just fine, but they are nothing at all like what he has now.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2980
Registered: Oct-07
Orn,
Jan has NEVER told anyone what to buy.......at least in those areas where taste is the final arbiter.
And believe me when I say, we had this Magnepan discussion years ago and agreed that 'whatever floats your boat' was going to be OK. The usual recommendation is to 'go have a listen'.....

If you read more posts, you'd see that Jan only reluctantly drags his system into the mix. Doesn't matter what YOU own.......as long as it satisfies the musical part of YOU.

Even I, who have owned panels non-stop for well north of 30 years wouldn't simply tell someone to 'go get 'em and be satisfied'......Too many other things going on and many worthy speakers to audition.

As long as I have room for 'em, I'll own panels. If I hit the Lotto bigtime, I'll build a room addition and go bigger......but I'll probably always own panels.....

I find the immediacy and lack of 'box' with panels to be compelling. When set up properly, and believe me when I tell you I'm VERY proficient at it, they tell quite a musical story.
And while it it true that better upstream stuff yields better end results, you don't need to spend multiple thousands of bucks on amps and sources.......I'm personally satisified with just 'good'. I even sold a nice CD redbook only player to get a good enough DAC to improve system flexability.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 72
Registered: Dec-12
It's not that I don't think they sound good. They do. But the large size and the fact that you have the sound coming out of the back can both present problems. Boxes can sound very very good, if they are done right.

...and let's not forget the original question was how to get his small speakers fixed!

I find the speakers that are neither huge nor tiny to be the best overall. The speakers I have owned have all been about the same size (Yamaha NS-690, Rogers Studio 1, Yamaha NS-1000). They are all roughly two feet high by one foot deep by one foot wide.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2981
Registered: Oct-07
The point has been....from the beginnings of both related threads that ALL speakers have built in compromise. Your multi-way boxes have a different set than my 2-way panels......and different benefits as well.

That you have a preference for a certain design paradigm is no skin off my nose. Only you should NOT represent it as the be-all, end-all of speaker design.
I've heard 25,000$ Sony speakers which supposedly represented the BEST they could do. OK, but not for my nickel. I heard Focal Grand Utopia speakers. They were taller than me and you couldn't put your arms around 'em. In the wacky small room I heard 'em in? Sorry, no sale.
On the other hand? A pair of AudioEngine A-5 powered speakers were terrific. You could stuff a pair under each arm. Other small speakers which impressed ranged from the Audience 2+2....fairly expensive but small and full range at that! (w/passive radiator for xtra bass) to the new offering from RogerSoundLabs....the original owner bought the name back and is at it again.
Many of the Lothar / Seas / Foxtex single driver speakers impress as well.
Turns out I'm fairly sensitive to certain distortions and phase/imaging situations.

BTW, with panels, the 'problem' of sound coming out the back is also an opportunity. Without going into agonizing detail, setup is key. I've found people with ZERO better sound background are a little off put at first. By the time you put on something familiar.....most of 'em come around.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 74
Registered: Dec-12
But, to repeat. he was asking about repairing his SMALL speakers.

These:

http://audio-database.com/KEF/speaker/k120.JPG

Is there something about this that escapes you?

Why not address that? Magnepans, no matter how good they may sound, are NOT small speakers!

It's like trying to sell the driver of a VW GTI a Mack truck.

Americans seem fond of big stuff, big cars, big houses. The British excel at making small speakers. Quit imposing your American 'bigger is better' perspective on this.

Look at this article, obviously written by an American, with (mostly) big American speakers chosen:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20007800-47.html
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2982
Registered: Oct-07
The reason I didn't address 'that' was that good advice had already been given.......refoam kits are easily obtained and in the case of drivers which hadn't been abused, a good choice.

I'm sure Jan will like the 'bigger is better' crack, being the owner of a 4wdrive Fiat...with 3" lift kit and a front mounted winch.........
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 75
Registered: Dec-12
But he lives in Texas, I believe.
 

New member
Username: Pmaxp

Sag Harbor, NY United States

Post Number: 7
Registered: Jan-13
I have found the discussion that I initiated quite strange. I asked a simple question. One list member was incredibly helpful. No other poster contributed anything useful and the discussion got way off topic. Al bit odd given the pleasure music provides all of us. Guess it does not always soothe the wild nature of sentient beings.

Anyway, I am looking for replacement woofers for my KEF K-120 if my efforts at replacing the foam surrounds does not work. I do not want to have to modify the cabinet or new woofers.

THanks
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2986
Registered: Oct-07
Please post back with the results of your project.

Check out the youtube vids available which may also be helpful before you start 'operating'.

Mentally rehearse the sequence before you begin and have all materials and supplies ready to go.

You'll do fine.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17663
Registered: May-04
.

Peter, has the foam kit gone badly for you? Or, just decided not to chance it? Have you checked into any speaker repair shops in your area?


As another potential resource, KEF sells the Uni-Q drivers as car systems. Since the idea behind the Uni-Q is a completely self contained unit with woofer, tweeter and crossover all included the problems of system matching are largely removed for the diy'er. There are electrical and mechanical parameters which describe all drivers. Using these numbers it should be fairly easy to make a car system driver work in your existing cabinets. The KEF sound is the KEF sound and whichever driver you would select should sound very much like your present speakers - possibly a bit better due to the newest technology in a new driver.

Automotive drivers and home systems are not completely interchangeable however. It goes slightly beyond just finding a driver of the same diameter. KEF should be willing to assist you in making the selection and most high quality shops should understand the matching process. Looking at your situation from the outside and taking into consideration the idea what you have is not a super tweaked and ultra-refined system of the highest order, I think I might be tempted to give this car system driver a look if repairing your present speakers just isn't in the picture.




.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 76
Registered: Dec-12
Car system? Jan, this is even more ridiculous.

First you wanted him to buy Magnepans, and now a car system. You are again not being helpful, at all.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1530
Registered: Jul-07
"No other poster contributed anything useful "

Take the hint Ornello. Seriously.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 77
Registered: Dec-12
No, you provided absolutely nothing of value. Why in the world would you presume he was referring to you? I suggested he see a dealer and contact KEF. You made all kinds of irrelevant comments and suggestions. Why would you presume that he wants to get involved in this repair himself? Or that he would want Magnepan speakers? Your suggestions and comments were worthless and misleading.

The greatest service you could perform would be to get off this group and stay off.

That is not a hint, by the way.
 

New member
Username: Pmaxp

Sag Harbor, NY United States

Post Number: 8
Registered: Jan-13
Dear Ornello:

I do not know you. Your postings in response to my question were in no way useful. Instead you contributed bad spirit, hostility, and generally poor internet etiquette. My experience on this forum was ruined by your comments. If I was moderator of this forum, you would now be banned from participating forever. Take care and please stop commenting on this thread.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 78
Registered: Dec-12
I offered positive and useful suggestions, unlike Jan. I suggested you contact KEF to get your KEF speakers repaired. That is good advice. Why would anyone object to that advice?

Jan is a BIG problem here, and I strongly recommend he be kicked off of here.

I have not been rude, whereas he has been. Read the posts and see for yourself. Are you confused as to who is who? Who has shown proper internet etiquette? It's me, and not Jan. Read the posts.

Who has shown 'bad spirit' or 'hostility'? Who has made personal attacks? Jan.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17664
Registered: May-04
.

A separate time wasting thread made clear Orne does not grasp the use of Theile Small parameters. Never heard of them. Will not research them. Therefore, as knowledge is the ultimate threat to his existence as an internet troll, he refuses to comprehend the audacious fifty year old concept that mechanical and electrical parameters define a driver's performance. Once defined by the T/S parameters as a "motor system" with both mechanical and electrical values, that driver is now looking for an application. The driver isn't concerned whether that application is as a motor system in a car, a home or free space, as long as the application suits its parameters and its parameters suit the application, the motor system will be happy - as will the user.

Therefore, given the many motor system parameters with which a loudspeaker designer works, a single driver will fit many applications, all of which will be successful when its electrical and mechanical parameters fit the application. In the designer's world of T/S parameters, there are no "car systems" and "home systems", no "small speakers" and "large speakers", there are only electrical and mechanical "motor parameters" seeking a useful purpose.

A "useful purpose".

The very antithesis of what an internet troll is all about. If, however, a troll has not had a simple, single new thought or fails to be inquisitive about anything beyond what they find in a marketting brochure, that value is lost on the troll. Some trolls actually do have some degree of information which they will use to beat others over the head - again and again and again. I've engaged them on more than one occasion and, unfortunately, they are still internet trolls no matter. Even more sadly, most are just trolls with no purpose other than to entertain themself by bothering others.

Orne comes here everyday - probably multiple times a day - hoping to find a single word, a single phrase upon which he can fixate and thus fulfill his life's mission; to be trollish in his disagrement and thereby disrupt the usefulness of someone else's conversation.

The internet equivalent of throwing nails onto the highway and waiting for the wreck to happen. The very thought of it makes most trolls literally wet their pants, the very first sign they have no control over basic human functions in a normal society.

That was Ornello's reason for coming to this forum in the first place. It is his reason for staying on this forum - for as long as he is being fed. It is the mark of any internet troll with a vacuous life being sucked into the black hole of absolute irrelevance to anyone under any circumstances.

Trolls lives to disrupt threads for people such as Peter who come looking for assistance and direction and find ... well, they find foolish, useless trolls such as Ornello who are not here to provide intelligent and informative commentary. That is not what trolls do. They want a car wreck to occur. The more massive the pile up, the better for them.



So take comments from the peanut gallery for what they are worth. If someone says, "You are not being helpful", it is seen as a badge of honor to the dedicated troll. If I say, "up", the troll will then say, "How outrageous! DOWN!". If I next say, "Left", that same troll would repeat, "Down". Not because they had no understanding of "left" but because they are so limited in their rationale for being here that they can only repeat and repeat and repeat again the same non-helpful crap they came with on their first day of arrival. In this case it is what they've read in a marketting brochure. It is not Theile Small parameters. Trolls suffer from "repeatitus" where any intelligent comment is met with a repeat, repeat, repeat of some previous worthless crap they have made up which is neither helpful nor relevant to a productive conversation.


When this is pointed out, they will come back with yet more irrelevant and unhelpful crap, the same crap they have thrown through the cage bars many times before.



Just watch what happens next. Some useless and irrelevant troll will prove they have absolutely no value to this - or any other - discussion. It is what trolls do.




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Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 79
Registered: Dec-12
See what I mean? Jan's entire post is a personal attack. Need any more proof?
 

New member
Username: Pmaxp

Sag Harbor, NY United States

Post Number: 9
Registered: Jan-13
One more time. Your response shows no self awareness nor any interest in reflection. There was no contrition nor even an apology for your attitude and lack of community commitment. The other person was, in fact, very useful. PErhaps a trip to your local bookstore and a browse through the self-help section. Please stop contributing to this thread. Good luck and good fortune.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 80
Registered: Dec-12
Peter:

Sorry, I am in no way guilty of anything but being helpful and making a positive contribution.

If you think what I have written is in any way negative, you are mistaken.

If you read the sequence of posts, you will see that.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17666
Registered: May-04
.

It's no use to make contact with the troll, Peter. The more you invite any comment, the more advantage a troll will take to be a troll. This is the troll we have to deal with at the present time, you have unfortunately arrived just in time to watch this troll's clown act.


You're not going to get rid of a troll, you can only work around them and just avoid reading what they post. Make your comments and we'll respond as best we can. You can see which posts are from which sources.



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Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 82
Registered: Dec-12
Sorry, I am in no way guilty of anything but being helpful and making a positive contribution.

If you think what I have written is in any way negative, you are mistaken.

If you read the sequence of posts, you will see that.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 84
Registered: Dec-12
I have no idea why anyone would accuse me of being a 'troll' when someone else (Jan) took the thread into many irrelevant directions. The answer I gave was succinct and appropriate: contact the manufacturer or dealer to start with. What in the world makes me a 'troll' for suggesting that?

Why would anyone suggest Magnepans for someone using small speakers? Such a suggestion is the mark of a 'troll'.

I am definitely going to contact the moderator here.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1531
Registered: Jul-07
Ignore it Peter and get the advice you need. Reasoning with it is futile. Good luck.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 91
Registered: Dec-12
I feel as though I have stepped into some alternate universe, where everything is backwards. If you are nice, people accuse you of being nasty. If you offer useful advice, people accuse you of being a 'troll', and if you take the thread in a totally different direction and are nasty, rude, and insulting, people praise you. I have no idea what is wrong with you people. But I have behaved perfectly properly and offered useful, good advice. For this, I have been accused of everything under the sun.

The question was a simple one, and I answered it in an appropriate way: contact the manufacturer first. Then let them offer advice if they cannot offer a repair service.

A lot of people confuse 'useful' with 'what I want to hear'. I don't.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17671
Registered: May-04
.

"If you are nice, people accuse you of being nasty."




Shall I once again quote back to you a few words you directed at me in another thread ...



1) Everything you know is wrong.

2) Everything you think is wrong.

3) Before you were even conceived, you were wrong

So, do us all a favour and get off this forum. You have nothing to contribute ...


https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/713635.html#POST2008191

That was what? your tenth post on this forum?


You have not been nice!

To anyone.

You are, therefore, reaping exactly what you have sown on this forum. Your reception has been a reflection of your entrance and your continued insistance on interrupting and contradicting others. When you are shown facts, you deny them. When you are ignored, you rudely interrupt. When you have no information to offer, you insist you do. When you are asked not to contribute further, you argue with that person.


"A lot of people confuse 'useful' with 'what I want to hear'. I don't."


You are obviously confused. What you want to say and say and say is not what others want to hear again and again and again. Think about why that might be. You confuse insults, obstinance in the extreme, lack of information, lack of curiousity, lack of courtesy, an inability to refrain from being insulting to others and constant interruption with "being nice".

Self reflection is a b**ch. If you've been told by all involved that you are the problem, quite possibly you are. That is exactly what you have been told by everyone on the forum.


If you've been asked not to post more comments, the courteous and mature thing to do is to quietly drop out and not post more comments. Arguing with the person who made the request is not the un-troll-like thing to do. Reasonable people understand such requests. Trolls do not. Trolls claim everyone other than themself have been the problem.

"Sorry, I am in no way guilty of anything but being helpful and making a positive contribution.

If you think what I have written is in any way negative, you are mistaken.

If you read the sequence of posts, you will see that.

Why would anyone suggest Magnepans for someone using small speakers? Such a suggestion is the mark of a 'troll'.

I am definitely going to contact the moderator here."




And how has that worked out for you?



Trolls go through the forum looking for years old threads to respond to.



If you feel you are in an alternate universe, the best thing to do is to quickly return to the universe from which you came. This is not it and never will be.


To further argue with this friendly, "seen many others just like you" advice is to prove yourself to be the consumate troll lacking value to anyone on this "alternate universe" forum.


I fully expect you to argue and to insult. It's what trolls do.



.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 92
Registered: Dec-12
You are quite the consummate demagogue. What has another thread to do with THIS one? In that other one, I was responding to your false statements, and I stand by those responses to those false statements. Here, I have been quite the gentleman in the face of extreme, unwarranted provocation.

I have not insulted you or anyone else here. I have pointed out that you hold mistaken opinions, and you do. That is not insulting, but pointing out the truth, however ugly.

Why do you feel compelled to write enormously long responses? Are you afflicted with graphomania? This audio stuff isn't all that complicated.

The BEST thing would be for YOU to disappear from the pages of this board. You're unfit to be here. You are qualified neither intellectually nor psychologically. You view every contrary opinion as a threat.

You know nothing of value to anyone here.

In the immortal words of Jim Mora: You THINK you know, but you DON'T know, and you never will.

http://youtu.be/NHipzGL4dwM

You're like a geeky 14-year old with no social life who has memorized every trivial fact about Pink Floyd and dreams of being a rock star, unaware that rock stars are probably the most miserable people on the planet.

We don't need you. We don't want you. Go away.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 93
Registered: Dec-12
Look what I found!

http://www.stereophile.com/content/jan-vigne-banned

Jan Vigne banned
Posted: November 15, 2010 - 9:41am

"We have banned Jan Vigne from the forum.

I have tried, John Atkinson has tried, Ariel Bitran has tried, and members of the forum have tried to assist Jan Vigne in becoming a valuable, productive, sociable member of our community, but Jan simply could not function within the group.

Jan's contributions turned regularly to hostility. Jan's contributions worked to derail threads so that his behavior and personality became the focus of discussion. And, ultimately, we felt Jan's behavior dissuaded others from participating and prevented new members from joining.

It's always unpleasant to have to ban a member of our forum, but we feel this is the right decision and we hope it helps to make the forum a better place."
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17673
Registered: May-04
.


Look what you found! The question is, why were you looking in the first place? My personal life is none of your business. But it's always the trolls who find that post on another forum. A forum they had to go looking for by doing a search into my personal life. But another thread on this forum has NOTHING to do with this forum?

Yeah, that's usually how trolls think.


And I don't belong on this forum?


Orne, I forgot more about audio just today than you've ever known.






.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 96
Registered: Dec-12
It is extremely unlikely that you know more than I do about what matters in audio.

Why was I looking in the first place?

I looked you up precisely because of your poor conduct and boorish behaviour here. I wanted to know if it had been displayed elsewhere, and it has. So badly have you behaved that you were kicked off of the Stereophile forum.

What is important is what was said, the 'why':

Jan Vigne banned
Posted: November 15, 2010 - 9:41am

"We have banned Jan Vigne from the forum.

I have tried, John Atkinson has tried, Ariel Bitran has tried, and members of the forum have tried to assist Jan Vigne in becoming a valuable, productive, sociable member of our community, but Jan simply could not function within the group.

Jan's contributions turned regularly to hostility. Jan's contributions worked to derail threads so that his behavior and personality became the focus of discussion. And, ultimately, we felt Jan's behavior dissuaded others from participating and prevented new members from joining.

It's always unpleasant to have to ban a member of our forum, but we feel this is the right decision and we hope it helps to make the forum a better place."

So, I do think you are due for some reflection.

You don't belong here.

You are unfit to be here.

Go away.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17674
Registered: May-04
.


Peter, how are you doing?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 97
Registered: Dec-12
How touching.

Since you have been unmasked, I expect you to crawl away.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17675
Registered: May-04
.


"If you are nice, people accuse you of being nasty."



The thread is about Peter.

He made a request of you several posts back.

You looked because you are a troll. Trolls all look. Haven't met one that hasn't. Trolls all think alike and all operate alike. You're just the latest troll to look.




.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 98
Registered: Dec-12
I am making a request of you:

Get lost!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17676
Registered: May-04
.


I don't take requests from trolls.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 99
Registered: Dec-12
But you're worse than a 'troll', whatever that is.

All purpose defense: call someone a 'troll'.

GET LOST!!!!!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17677
Registered: May-04
.


"If you are nice, people accuse you of being nasty. If you offer useful advice, people accuse you of being a 'troll' ... "
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1532
Registered: Jul-07
"We don't need you. We don't want you."

Who the heck is "we" ? You got a mouse in your pocket fella ?
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 105
Registered: Dec-12
We are the rational people who know how to behave, that's who 'we' are. We are the people who are sick of Jan Vigne, that's who 'we' are'
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1535
Registered: Jul-07
Are we voting on who the "rational" people are ? Or are you self appointing yourself to that group ?
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1536
Registered: Jul-07
Are we voting on who the "rational" people are ? Or are you self appointing yourself to that group ?
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 106
Registered: Dec-12
Are you unaware that Stereophile also found his behaviour unacceptable?
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1537
Registered: Jul-07
Of course I'm aware of it. That gets dusted off every once in a while. Allow me to paint you a brief history.

Many people have popped by this site, mostly folks looking for help with something. Purchasing advice, repair advice, a little bit of DIY banter, etc. Jan is by far the most helpful person who hangs around here, and gives thoughtful, knowledgeable advice....and 99% of those people leave here with a thank you. Many of them don't get the advice they wanted, but most appreciate the fact that someone took the time to inform them, or perhaps challenge their views on something.

However, every once in a while, someone drops by thinking they know way more than they actually do, and decide (for a reason that I still have not yet determined) that Jan is a problem. So even though 99% of the people appreciate the advice and knowledge, and <1% don't, they decide Jan is the problem. And then the go digging for dirt, and find the Stereophile bit.

Now, what would a "rational" person deduce from this story. That the 99% are wrong, and the <1% are right ?

So here we sit, with another misguided, self appointed know-it-all who wants to butt heads with Jan, simply because Jan doesn't agree with your views on audio. Of course, nobody here agrees with most of what you said, but again you still conclude that you're "rational" and we aren't. With guys like you it really doesn't matter what anyone says, once your mind is made up on something, no amount of reason will change your mind. So the only "rational" thing to do is ignore you, which is what I expect you'll get a lot of from now on.

So go ahead Ornello. Knock yourself out. Nobody here agrees with you, the OP on this post asked you to butt out long ago, your in the vast minority when it comes to your opinion on Jan, but go ahead and hold the opinion that WE'RE the problem and not you. Cuz that's what guys like you do.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 110
Registered: Dec-12
I provided simple, straightforward and reasonable advice. Jan did not. In fact, he took the thread into all kinds of directions.

I don't particularly care that you say 'Nobody here agrees with you'. You have no evidence of that.

There is ZERO evidence that I am a wacko, and there is PLENTY that Jan is.

I don't know everything in audio, nor do I claim to. But I do treat others with respect. Jan certainly does not, and THAT was why he was kicked off of the Stereophile forums, and that is why he should be kicked off of here.

Everyone, I am sure, can understand this.

All I have done is respectfully disagree where I thought Jan was out of line or mistaken. I have not insulted anyone, but HE HAS! So, why am I the 'bad guy' here? I don't get it.

Are you incapable of recognizing rude, boorish behaviour? Hint: It's Jan's standard conduct.

Here is what I said:

"You may want to consider contacting KEF directly. I am surprised you have not mentioned that."

After I posted that, the VERY NEXT post, this is what Jan said:

"There's no need to contact KEF directly. Ornello is surprised other people can draw breath without his approval. Ignore him."

What on earth is wrong with you people if you think that THIS is proper conduct on a forum?

IT CERTAINLY ISN'T!!!!

A lot of times people simply don't think of contacting the manufacturer or dealer, or perhaps they are afraid of something. I had a problem with one of my Rogers speakers once and took the speaker back to the dealer, who obtained a new driver from Rogers' import agency, and serviced it. That's what dealers do.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1540
Registered: Jul-07
Look Ornello, I don't have the energy to bat this back and forth. You're going to have to figure it out for yourself. Your response was as predictable as my sons reaction to broccoli. You ignored everything I wrote and started cherry picking your "evidence" of being correct. Completely ignoring any evidence to the contrary.

"I don't particularly care that you say 'Nobody here agrees with you'. You have no evidence of that."

Well, I do actually, and so do you. Hint. Find one guy that DOES agree with you. I thought so.

"I don't know everything in audio, nor do I claim to. But I do treat others with respect."

Also not true. In the other thread you said all kinds of rude things, including repeating over and over that Jan knows nothing. You started a thread with the sole purpose of attacking Jan. That's not cool at all, and certainly not respectful. I could go on and on, but you get the drift. This statement is pure bs and you know it.

"Jan certainly does not, and THAT was why he was kicked off of the Stereophile forums, and that is why he should be kicked off of here.

Everyone, I am sure, can understand this. "


Let me see if I got this straight. Jan was kicked off of Stereophile (for reasons you don't really understand at all btw), and therefore he should get kicked out of here ? That's your logic ? How about every other board Jan goes on ? Jan should be perhaps banned from the internet entirely, eh ? Nonsense. You don't know the reasons or background of the issues at Stereophile. And you show up here and 100 posts later you're the expert on everything and everyone huh ? More nonsense.

"Are you incapable of recognizing rude, boorish behaviour?"

Oh yes. I certainly am. Are you capable of listening to what you're being told. Peter told you to butt out of his business, yet you still think YOU gave good advice and Jan didn't ? REALLY ? Peter said Jan helped him and told you to beat it, and you think Jan was in the wrong ? REALLY REALLY ? C'mon Ornello. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Here's Peter's exact words;

"One more time. Your response shows no self awareness nor any interest in reflection. There was no contrition nor even an apology for your attitude and lack of community commitment. The other person was, in fact, very useful. PErhaps a trip to your local bookstore and a browse through the self-help section. Please stop contributing to this thread. Good luck and good fortune."

So, I'm thinking he didn't find you helpful at all. Quite the contrary, as he felt YOU were the problem, not Jan. And that's what I think. And that's what Leo thinks. And presumably that's what Jan thinks. So take Peter's advice and self reflect on that dude. What do you think that all means ? Hint: You're not playing well with others.

Stop trying to vindicate every word that comes out of your fingers, and start reading (and comprehending......that's important) what other people are saying to you.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 113
Registered: Dec-12
This is truly hilarious. Where is Rod Serling?

And are you still incapable of distinguishing between 'what you want to hear' and 'good advice'?

People who live with an abusive person eventually come to view them as 'normal' since they don't have any basis of comparison. I am telling you unequivocally that Jan is not fit for this forum, that his behaviour is inappropriate.

And where did I claim to be the expert on everything? I have owned audio equipment, some of it state-of-the art or near state-of-the art (at least at the time), for more than 40 years. What is more, I do have good 'ears', and others have commented on this.

I have worked in photo retailing, a similar line of work. I didn't know everything there was to know, but I was able to solve the vast majority of customers' problems using a process of elimination and understanding of the photographic process. It's essentially the same thing in audio.

Sometimes you would have customers who insisted that this or that was a problem (defective camera, lens, film, etc.) when it was none of those things, but simply the limitations of the technology or user error. This is where a bit of tact comes in handy: telling people not what they want to hear, but what is true, but doing it in a tactful way. Can you imagine delivering the photofinishing to a high-school girl who did not properly thread the film in her camera, and lost 2/3 of the 40 rolls of her trip to Russia? Yes, most of the rolls were blank. Yes, there was hysterical crying.

Now, it's true that it could have been the camera, but an examination thereof showed it to be operating properly.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1541
Registered: Jul-07
"And are you still incapable of distinguishing between 'what you want to hear' and 'good advice'? "

I'm sure the irony of that statement is totally lost on you.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 114
Registered: Dec-12
LOL

No, my friend, no.
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