ProAc sc1 vs Magnaplanars for classical?

 

New member
Username: Dohgrant

Post Number: 8
Registered: Aug-07
Which Magnaplanar (if any) to better the proac sc1. I'm due for an upgrade
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 16696
Registered: May-04
.

IMO any. However, moving from a ProAc to a Magneplanar is like switching from tequila to chocloate. Unless the ProAcs have burnt your ear drums it's difficult to imagine a system where they are interchangeable without other modifications to the system. Which definitely leads to asking, "What is it you value in music?" Where in the auditorium do you sit when you attend a live performance?




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Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 14665
Registered: Feb-05
Have you considered Harbeth or Spendor?
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2553
Registered: Oct-07
Have you ever heard panels properly set up? In a small room the MMG is tops, and at 600$, tough to beat.
As you go up line you get 'more' and at the same time they like more space while continuing to be a very different speaker than any box.

You'll need to consider the entire system. The amp you have for the Proacs? Probably not quite enough power.
The room? If you have installed treatments, they may not be in the best place for panels.

That being said, right now, the MG1.6s are going for bargain prices. They were recently replaced in the line by the upgraded 1.7, which for Magnepan is a big move. The MG3.6 has also been upgraded so they are also selling used at a good price. You don't really have to be afraid of any panel 'used' if you can properly hear it before hand. Delamination and other problems can be heard.
And, as if that weren't enough, Magnepan is a very DIY intensive speaker. Crossovers? Bi / Tri amp? ReFrame? Stands?
I even listen to the 'wrong' side of the panel. Magnepan changed orientation of the panel and I prefer the way it was, not listening to the mylar side.

Go listen to some.
 

New member
Username: Dohgrant

Post Number: 9
Registered: Aug-07
The ProAcs, much as I appreciate them, are best for voice. I just can't get them to do symphonic as convincingly as, say, the old kef 104(AB), or the powered three-way (passive radiator) Mackie 824s. I paid about 2500 Can for the SC1s. I would be prepared to spend that much and more on something truly FLAT (like the Mackies) but with less colour than the Mackies or the KEFs.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 16699
Registered: May-04
.

The Mackies are "flat" but also "colored"? That would lead me to think you shouldn't be looking at speakers which simply measure as flat in an anechoic chamber.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2556
Registered: Oct-07
I'm not sure how well maggies measure. Certainly, they sound good but the physics of the panel make measuring them a chore for most reviewers....at least the few that bother to measure anything.

If you stuck panels in an anachoic space, wouldn't the backwave simply disappear?

At the 2000$+ price point, the MG1.7s are the obvious (only) choice unless you find an older pair of MG3.5s. Even MGIIs still have a following as do the model called 'Tympani', a landmark speaker in it's several revisions.
See link for Magnepan model history:: Used prices vary by condition and any modifications done.

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/articles/speakers.html
 

New member
Username: Dohgrant

Post Number: 10
Registered: Aug-07
That's very useful info on the Mag! I only use it as one example of an alternative/improvement? over the proacs. Of course there might be others. Generally, I've found that speaker manufacturers that test for (and take seriously) flatness and distortion DO tend to make better-sounding products. Hence both the Kef 104s and the Mackie 824s claim flatness within a certain percentage over a given frequency range; and the speakers DO in fact deliver in that respect.

But, of course, once a relatively flat response is achieved then the REAL challenge comes to the fore: distortion. The sc1s are an oddity: not particularly flat, but very low distortion in the treble.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2557
Registered: Oct-07
I don't know anyone who would prefer a speaker to measure good OVER sounding good.

That panels have measurement issues doesn't mean that have performance issues.

Nobody has an anachoic space for the listening room.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 16704
Registered: May-04
.

"The sc1s are an oddity: not particularly flat, but very low distortion in the treble."



Not all that "rare". With computer aided designs, high distortion drivers and enclosures are not very common at all in serious speaker design. Look at the frequency response of, say, a Wilson Sophia. It's hardly "flat" yet recieves terrific reviews and is generally regarded as a reference grade system. And, in today's high end systems, the upper frequencies are typically not where harmonic distortions from the drivers are at their highest level.


You would appear to be missing the point which as been made several times. What you perceive, more than any other component, is the room and how it interacts with the speakers. Also there is more to what you hear than the speaker's measured on axis frequency response in the extreme near field within an anechoic chamber or its harmonic distortion components when driven by sinewaves.


What is it you're trying to get from us? You haven't listed any equipment which will pair with new speakers. You appear to be blaming the speakers for not managing what you want but not recognizing the speakers might not be at fault here.

You haven't said anything about musical preferences other than "classical" which is about as descriptive as asking. "What bowls will go well with food?"

You haven't mentioned anything other than how much you've spent on the ProAcs and that you look at measurements rather than listen to music.

You haven't said what values are important to you in music or the presentational style you prefer, just that you look at measurements to judge the performance of a speaker.



So what is it you're wanting from us?




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Bronze Member
Username: Dohgrant

Post Number: 11
Registered: Aug-07
What do I want? Just opinions and directions, nothing specific. What I've heard here so far has, in fact, been of great benefit. I listened to the Spendor 9As today and compared them directly to the Martin Logan Theos on a variety of orchestral, solo voice, and solo piano material. The speakers were (at this shop) roughly equivalent in price, the Logans a bit cheaper.

For my taste (because I think it is a matter of taste at this point) the Logans were demonstrably clearer and more life-like on all types of music.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Canada

Post Number: 3561
Registered: Jun-07
The Logans must had been set up to perfection. Jan and Leo make great points. Your associated equipment is very important, and even more so your room. The Logans are either loved or hated as they are one of the hardest speakers to have properly set up IMO. Like Leo stated, Magnapans will also need a dedicated room with proper treatment and size to allow that style of speaker to breathe. My dealer is a Martin Logan dealer and I have heard them sound fantastic and the same speaker sound down right horrible. Room is key John. What amp and source are you using?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Dohgrant

Post Number: 12
Registered: Aug-07
Dayton Wright preamp; Spectra Acoustics amp (200 rms), which I really hope doesn't die on me--it's real old. Thorens w/ SME Arm, various cartridges; Onkyo C-S5VL cd player (the only relatively new hardware I own!)



I'm checking out Maggies tomorrow. 1.7 and 3.7. It would be great if I could compare them directly with the ML. JG
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2559
Registered: Oct-07
If you like the 1.7 maggies, you may also enjoy the 1.6, available pre-loved for quite a reduction in price.
Opinions vary as to if / or how much improvement was made going to the 1.7 revision.

If you can afford NEW 3.7s, you WILL need better upstream electronics. period.

The subject of amps and magnepans is a study of its own.
Don't get me started on the DIY aspect of these speakers, either. If you are in the least handy with wood, a full reframe to get away from the MDF is a wonderful help and can be a speaker of great beauty.

If you go the modification route and want someone else to do it?

http://www.indiespinzone.com/magnestand.html
 

Bronze Member
Username: Dohgrant

Post Number: 13
Registered: Aug-07
Thanks Leo, that's very helpful info. I take it you think ALL my electronics would need an upgrade, but which component (if it is possible to say) needs the most improvement? I'm loath to abandon the Spectro** Acoustics Amp and Dayton Wright preamp. They've served me tirelessly and flawlessly these long years.

JG

**note that's "spectro", not "spectra"!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 16711
Registered: May-04
.

Your equipment is from the 1970's. You also appear to be stuck in a 1970's frame of mind when it comes to your system; upgrade the speakers first and always. Unfortunately, for you, the ProAcs have moved forward with the progession of time and thought. What they are now accomplishing is the very thing they are intended to do, show you what is being put into them - both good and bad. And, with the vast majority of 1970's electronics driving them, that would hardly good news. While better than the first generation of soid state gear from the 1950-'60's, transistors in the '70's were still rather nasty sounding items.

The thinking in high end audio has, for the last thirty plus years, been to concentrate on the front of the system and work your way toward the speakers, updating the speakers last rather than first. If you have any doubts about why this is done, a Linn dealer should be able to explain the logic of "garbage in = garbage out". It would be your choice as to whether the table and arm - plus cartridge - required an update. Certainly, if your main source is LP, then a table upgrade is worth the money. Once again, the primary source is the table, then the arm and finally the cartridge; backwards from 1970's thinking.

I owned a Dayton Wright SPS pre amp in the 1970's. Nice unit for what it was but I haven't had the DW since the early 1980's. No current day speaker will open up with the signal fed through the Dayton Wright. The "Spectro" needs to go also. Not only have the passive components within an amplifier changed significantly and for the betterment of the music, but 1970's amplifiers were not meant to deliver high current. One development in audio has been the progression toward more and more difficult to drive speakers requiring high current delivery over an extended time period since thinking in far too many speakers designers' mind is watts are cheap. For example, the ProAcs require a good amount of control from the amplifier and the 1970's solid state "Spectro" cannot supply what they demand.

This is not to say you must follow the mainstream in audio. The low wattage, minimal circuit path concept of amplifier design has been in vogue in the more progressive movements of audio. A niche product to be sure, a two watt amplifier must be paired with the approriate system with considerable attention paid to the speakers sensitivity/efficiency and simplicity of crossover circuit. Magnepans, Logans, ProAcs, etc are definitely not going to be acceptable to this way of thinking.

http://www.zuaudio.com/

http://www.decware.com/newsite/articles.html

http://www.miniwatt.com.hk/amplifiers/miniwatt-n3.html



Finally, attention to system set up, cabling and AC line conditioning pay susbtantial dividends to the listener's enjoyment of the musical event. Hop in the AMC Pacer - filled to unleaded gasoline - and head to a decent independent audio shop.



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Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2560
Registered: Oct-07
John,
Don't be sad. This is not a case of 'mission creep', but may be a needed upgrade.
I'm not a frequent upgrader, either, but when the time came, my 20+ year old amp / preamp and even OLDER speakers did get changed.

When you go to listen to speakers, get the info on the complete system. Everything matters.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2562
Registered: Oct-07
I saved this idea until I had some more data.
I just measured my panels.
I set the level to be about 80 db where I sit. I than measured the voltage at the speaker at about 3.5 volts....absolute peak. I never saw as much as 4 volts flicker by.
Even 10x the voltage....would be about 245 watts / at 5ohms or 500 watts the pair....absolute PEAK.
At 90db, I saw 20v flicker by during loud passages. My amp, as are 99%+ of all consumer amps is incapable of 10x peak voltage of that level. 200 volts at 5ohms is 8kilowatts, clearly out of the question. I don't even want to know the current.

Even the Kilowatt Pass 1000x is 'only' 127 volts....and the only amp manufacturer I've yet seen who will give you a maximum voltage specification to the outputs. My 'd' amp lists 85 volt 'rails' of which I don't know how much is available to the speakers.

I don't know what common practice is, but many speakers use 100v capacitors or perhaps 200v. For aftermarket / DIY caps, the skys the limit and 600v are available, even in the high values needed in crossovers.

Bottom line? When, not IF you upgrade your amp, and IF you end up with Maggies, you'll need a reasonable but not over-the-top amp for reasonable levels. 80db at my listening position is fine, while 90db can get loud. I have no idea what 'redline' is, but I don't want to get into mylar slap (bottoming driver).

If I had real deep pockets, the Pass INT-150 would be on the short list to audition. At about 300x2 at 4ohms, this amp would get the job done....and than some.
Many of the Panel folks will tell you to get a 'd' amp. Bel Canto and Wyred 4 Sound (W4S) are 2 commonly mentioned. Spectron, Rowland and many others are in this niche, too.

Go listen.

Jan, What would the average : peak voltage ratio be on music? Worst case of 10 x (voltage) seems too.....strict....or do most prefer using power as the measure? All I can measure is volts, albeit crudely. Going from 50 watts (just over 3 amps @5ohms) to 500 watts only ends up at 10 amps.....which should be within my panels peak capability...
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2563
Registered: Oct-07
Jan, loved the Pacer remark!
Saw a (unusual) AMC Marlin over by the beach the other day. With A for-sale sign, too. They made only 15000 of 'em in 2 years, so I may have passed up my opportunity to own a 'classic'.

Make mine an AMX, with the 390, 4spd, please.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Dohgrant

Post Number: 14
Registered: Aug-07
OK... listened to the Maggies today: mmg, 1.7, 3.7.

All fantastic. Why didn't I hear these BEFORE spending 2100 CAN dollars on the proac sc1? The SC1 is a great (and small); but the little mmg while admittedly bigger is--what can I say?---much greater still. If raw accuracy is your taste, this is IT.

Short and sweet: the 1.7 are bigger and, therefore, more flexible; but pure soundwise, absent size of space and position of listener, there is little to choose between the mmg and the 1/7. Likewise with the 3.7: super-clean sound, big, and therefore a "bigger" sound.

But they're all pretty much on par if space and loudness are not an issue. Ergo: if you've got a big space and folks dancing or just walking around, then get the 3.7. A smaller space and you're sitting down in the sweet place: mmg.

Yup.... a sub is definitely required... for all of them ... but obviously more for the mmg.

Hey... I just heard Leo Kottke on the little mmgs now in my living room .... sounded fantastic.... and I'm a classical guy.... I don't even listen to this stuff (my wife does).

So... again... the bigger 1.7 and 3.7 would be, I think, more of the same. Incredible, but more bass and more of the same beauty, but now wherever you happen to be standing in the room.

All of them are quite position-relative-to-source dependent. But, less so the more you spend.

Addendum: let me add, for clarification, that my wife heard them 40 ft away in the kitchen and remarked on them as being "way, way, better than what we've been listening to." Fact is: we haven't listened to much from the living room stereo since I put the old but beautiful active Mackie hr 824s in the basement with our HD tv. They were SO good. Replaced them with the SC1s and then the really ancient KEF 104s. We were bored with everything coming out of those English speakers.

The MMGs, now in the living room, have convinced us that American speaker technology and production RULES. Unless someone can drop some quads in there that prove otherwise, I'm hooked on this technology.
JG
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 16712
Registered: May-04
.

http://www.musclecarcalendar.com/MyGarage2004/MattScrambler/ScramblerP1.htm


or ...


http://www.theavanti.com/avanti.html




.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2565
Registered: Oct-07
John,
The MMGs MUST have been used. I understand they are only available mailorder direct from Magnepan.
Go to AudioAsylum and look at the planar pages. These guys know a LOT about panels and will be able to advise about subs. The DIY guys will start in on 'ya, too. Frames? Stands? Crossover mods? One guy even mounted his panels ON subs, which raised the panels for better imaging and gave 'em a nice bass boost.
Don't forget that the original panel was made in the '70s and is pretty much the same with extensive revisons and upgrades since. But still, using the same refrigerator magnets and idea as the originals.

Neat AMC stuff, Jan. That 'stude in the form of the Avanti was a space ship on wheels. Under the hood? Some (all?) came with a belt drive Paxton Supercharger. I think the last ones came from Canada.
As for the Marlin, it came with an optional 327. Wouldn't surprise me to learn it shared much with the Chevy of the same size. The bore / stroke is the same at 4x3.25 which is more than a coincidence.
No classics or fix-er-uppers for me. No space, time or money. I'd be willing to learn the skillset, but I'd end up living in it. I have too many hobbies as it is! Last nite, late, I ended up outside with the Binocs doing some star gazing. Jupiter rose and you could see a couple of the moons......
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 14676
Registered: Feb-05
Not to mention a Supernova.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Dohgrant

Post Number: 15
Registered: Aug-07
MMG "used"? in a sense, yes. They were his demos at the store. I took them home. I'm returning them tomorrow. Which is too bad. Because I am developing a serious relationship with them!!

I'm buying them; then I'll have the 1.7s to compare them with at home: ie the shop has offered to set up the 1.7s in my home. If necessary, the mmgs will end up somewhere else in the house.

Read today that Buick is coming out with a manual trans competator to the lexus 350, which as we know is a super quiet version of the Camry that is the definition of No Fun To Drive. The stick version of the Buick is going to market before the automatic. Given that this particular GM line is known to be QUIET, what with the handling it might even compete with the lowly es350.

}
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 16718
Registered: May-04
.

Too much glare from the Dallas lights for me to see even the supernova.

Besides, I always preferred the Chevelle SS.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2566
Registered: Oct-07
Jan, bigtime power failure will certainly take care of THOSE pesky lights. Last nite was OK since moon was over 1/2. It it had been a new moon, you could'a got lost walking across the street. The brightest lights would be those LED rechargables out in the yard. As it was, it was nice out. It cooled off enough for normal sleep.

Yeah! The SS396 ruled for a while. Chevy made a 375 hp version one year which COOKED. I lived in Chicago and we had Nickey Chevrolet, who made some AWESOME bigblocks from the catalogue. Pristine models from 'The sign of the backwards 'K' are collectable.
Me? Give me the original Z28 with the small block 302....Bore from the 327 (4") and the 3" stroke from the 283. 7500rpm redline and a (claimed) 275 hp...which it easily exceeded. It would beat the 325 horse bigblock in the 1/4...not to mention killing it on the road.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 14678
Registered: Feb-05
I crossed the Country in a Chevelle SS...was that fun or what! Don't remember the engine but I did have an Impala with a 396 Turbojet. Seems like it was equipped with a Rochester Quadraflush...so long ago...

Saw the Supernova last night, kinda cool.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2570
Registered: Oct-07
Try this, Art,
For the fans of 60's too much is never enough.

Upload
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2573
Registered: Oct-07
I could have seen the supernova the night of the BIG power failure. It was dead-nuts clear and very still, to boot.
Last 2 nites have been very overcast from about 10pm to 10am!
Good mornings to do a car wash, though.
I've got the glass, too. A pair of 7x50s for spotting.....You can, if braced, see 3 of the for Gallalean moons of Jupiter with 'em.
I also have a 1000mm f10 lens, T-adaptor for my camera and 18mm and 25mm eyepieces in 1 1/4" Nice. 25mm=40x and can be used for spotting. 18mm=55x and is too much except for astro.
Tracking stars with a camera tripod is almost impossible.
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