The saga continues...advice about mismatched drivers in Mission speakers?

 

Gold Member
Username: Illuminator

USA

Post Number: 5515
Registered: Apr-05
Oy.

So I was looking at the Mission 731 bookshelf speakers I "inherited" and realized that one of the woofers does not match. I took the speaker apart (some of the screws were almost stripped and I could tell the person who replaced the driver likely used an electric screwdriver.

Anyway, the mismatched woofer is a Klipsh K-1015-S (different power handling--50w RMS/200w peak vs. Mission's 25-75w suggested power, I believe).

I have a difficult time by just listening that there is a different woofer in there, but I get the feeling that the sound will be quite a bit better if I use matched drivers, yeah? Or no?

I'm also looking for the Mission driver: 60-LFC13 if anyone knows where I can grab one (I googled and have sent a message to a seller on ebay who had one but it didn't sell). Thanks so much guys.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 16265
Registered: May-04
.

The 731's are how old? About twenty five years?

The power handling of the driver doesn't
mean squat as to how it sounds. There are a series of electrical and machanical parameters which define each low frequency driver. To match a new driver to the parameters of the OEM woofer, you'll need to know those OEM parameters. Just buying another driver - whether it's a Mission woofer or not, will not be sufficient if you're actually interested in having a matched pair of speakers. You might try calling Parts Express for some technical advice on possible replacements. Better yet, it's really time to move on to a newer speaker. Technology has changed quite a bit since the 731's were a current model

My advice would be to either live with the speakers as is if you think the sound is OK. Or move the Missions to a remote room location and buy some new speakers.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Illuminator

USA

Post Number: 5516
Registered: Apr-05
Well I guess I'll keep searching for the original driver in that case.

And Jan, these things were basically free and they still sound better than most mass-made speakers out there. I'm somewhat surprised you say that...I know a few audiophiles who swear by their 70's and 80's speakers. To get speakers equivalent to or better than these, I'd have to spend hundreds of dollars when I frankly have better things to spend my money on. =)

Thanks for the reply.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 16268
Registered: May-04
.

You miss my point, Jexx. The power handling of a driver says nothing about its sound quality. You are an electronics technician, this should make sense to you. What you don't know are the parameters of the OEM driver nor of the replacement. Those are the vital bits of knowledge required to make any reasonable decision about replacing drivers. There is a possibiity the replacement driver has similar parameters to the OEM driver and that would be reason enough to use it should an exact replacement driver not be available.

Certainly, before you replace what is in the cabinet, I would encourage you to find out those specifications for both drivers along with any other driver you might consider. Power handling by itself is not sufficient data to justify a decision to replace the replacement. Should you buy a driver that is still unsuited to the 731's design, there's an equal chance the speaker will sound far worse than what you currently have.

Those are the points to be made regarding replacing the driver.

As to the 731's themself, they are a fairly old design. There have been numerous improvements in computer aided design and material usage since the time of the 731. This isn't to say the 731 should be discarded. Nor does what other's listen to prove there have not been improvements made in speaker design since the 1970-80's.


Jexx, they're your speakers. You get to do what you want with them. But my advice would be to not change drivers just because of what is in the cabinet now. You say you cannot tell the difference between the two speakers as is. I would say even with two identical speakers room placement will make for very different sounding speakers in most cases. You asked a question though, "I get the feeling that the sound will be quite a bit better if I use matched drivers, yeah? Or no?"

Jexx, spending money on a matched pair of drivers is fine with me as long as you have a truly matched pair of drivers. Otherwise, it is a waste of funds. At this point you don't seem to know what will be an exact match. It's possible Mission made changes in the driver as the model progressed in time. My point being you don't know what to look for. So find out before you waste money buying soemthing that will not be a perfect match. My opinion is you would be better off putting your money into something other than another driver.

"To get speakers equivalent to or better than these, I'd have to spend hundreds of dollars when I frankly have better things to spend my money on."

Apparently we agree on that point.


And I never suggested you buy some sort of "mass made" speaker. The Missions are assembled on a production line from off the line parts. Does that make them "mass made"? IMO you should spend some time listening to what is avaiable in the current line up of speakers before making any monetary decisions, Jexx. You will find there are some very nice speakers for not much money if you listen. Will you like them better than the Missions? I don't know. but I would certainly listen before spending money on the Missions.




.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1493
Registered: Oct-10
Jexx, if you are really determined to keep the 731s and have them match, you'll need to replace the woofers in both speakers. That's the only way to know for sure that you will have matching speakers. I have to agree with Jan though. At least listen to what is available now. Listening is certainly not a commitment to buy. If nothing else, at least you'll have a better idea how you want to proceed.
 

Gold Member
Username: Illuminator

USA

Post Number: 5517
Registered: Apr-05
Ahh, point well-taken, and I think I wasn't very clear in what I meant by replacing the driver.

I certainly understand that I would have to replace both drivers in the case that I got an alternative replacement driver (one which isn't an original Mission speaker). But my plan is to find the original Mission driver that should be in the unit. I've found a few sellers on ebay that have sold them recently and one that didn't (messaged him about it) and have my fingers crossed that something will come up. I would only want the original Mission speakers anyway, and no substitutes or alternatives. I have the original part number since I took apart the other speaker cabinet and pulled it off the other Mission driver. It seems if I can find one, I won't be spending more than 20-25$ so it's not too big of a deal. I'm just surprised that I can't hear much of a difference between the two speakers as it is, as when this has happened in the past I would certainly be able to tell. Maybe my hearing is going?

And yes I have somewhat naive questions, I know. I'm more or less coming from the car audio world where the listening environment is very different. I also agree that there have been improvements in speaker design over the years. Heck, I have a pair of Diamond Audio Hex components in my car that can't be more than three years old and they're stunning and certainly more clear than the Mission speakers (which is saying quite a bit comparing car speakers to home speakers--albeit the diamonds did cost $400).
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1496
Registered: Oct-10
If you don't hear a difference, is it really necessary to replace the woofer? I certainly wouldn't take that as an indication that your hearing is going. If you're concerned, get your hearing checked.
 

Gold Member
Username: Illuminator

USA

Post Number: 5520
Registered: Apr-05
That's what's bugging me: am I going to have better sound (namely in sound image) if I put in the original mission driver?

It's somewhat of an enigma to me right now. As it is, I'm still not even sure what to do with the speakers since they ARE pretty old. Wouldn't make much money selling them and don't know anyone who would want them (would be nice if they went to someone who also appreciates music).
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1504
Registered: Oct-10
If you don't hear a difference Jexx, I wouldn't waste the $ on a new woofer for a 25+ yr old speaker. It's your money and your choice, but that's my advice brotha!
 

Gold Member
Username: Illuminator

USA

Post Number: 5526
Registered: Apr-05
Yeah, true. Though for less than twenty bucks, it's not too bad of a price for a new woofer. What are some modern equivalents for these? I know, difficult question. I wouldn't mind grabbing a pair of modern B&W's or Missions to replace them sometime in the future, candidly.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1508
Registered: Oct-10
Yeah, I guess <$20 is a good deal. Modern equivalent? Yep! That's tough question. I kinda doubt there even is such a thing. So far, my fav out of all the speakers I've heard is B&W 801. I have heard them powered by Mac, B&K, Krell and Denon amps. They're running $24,000 a piece. So, unless you have an extra $48k lying around, you'll probably want to explore some less lofty models.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1509
Registered: Oct-10
Btw Jexx, any possibility you'd consider book shelf speakers and a subwoofer? This arrangement is a good alternative to floor speakers. They usually sound better to most peeps and take up less room.
 

Gold Member
Username: Illuminator

USA

Post Number: 5527
Registered: Apr-05
That's quite a privilege that you got to hear the 801's. Was it at a hi-fi shop I'm assuming? I actually found a place near me and plan to do a bit of auditioning to have a better idea of what sound I want etc. It also acts as a good reference point for my current system.

And I would certainly consider some bookshelf speakers and a subwoofer. In fact that's the direction I'll be taking in the future as it also seems to be the cheaper option. I've had my eyes on several Mission and B&W bookshelf speaker pairs on ebay lately and getting an idea for what kind of money I'll need when I do eventually make that upgrade (of course a listening test would precede the actual purchase). One thing I have noticed however, is I might get a good deal on floorstanding speakers as many who sell them are not willing to ship, so they resort to selling locally (pick-up only) and subsequently may lower the price to make the speakers more attractive to a smaller audience.

But buying locally seems to be the way to go as I would also get a chance to audition the equipment before purchase. I appreciate your advice with all of this.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2425
Registered: Oct-07
I'd like to go back to the OP for a sec, if I may.
25 year old speakers with mis-matched woofers, stripped screws on one of 'em.
First, 25 year old Crossover parts? At some point 'ya gotta question the caps.
Loose screws? Well, that speaker may be poorly sealed. And it won't matter a bit if it is ported or sealed. you'll still change the'tune' of the enclousure.

Consider yourself lucky they sound as OK as they apparently DO.
IF you feel the urge to take on a DIY project? Measure the enclosure, and find a woofer of the right size with the appropriate TS parameters. Buy a pair. Recap the crossover, too and while your at it, buy a matching pair of tweeters. At this point, you've spent enough time and money / effort / labor to BUY a new pair of much better sound speakers with a newwarranty.

I'm guessing their is QUITE a bit of space between partially trashed, 25 year old Missions (were they at least good when issued?) and 50 large worth of B&W?

Jexx has the rite idea. Go listen to some stuff....and leave the checkbook at HOME on the first pass. If you come home with 50 large worth of speaker, we'll end up reading about you in the paper....
 

Gold Member
Username: Illuminator

USA

Post Number: 5529
Registered: Apr-05
Just before getting too far into it: are they really 25 years old? I know that was a speculation earlier, but I'm not quite sure it's a fact. The speaker design and terminals wouldn't seem that they're so old. They seem to be more like mid-nineties. I certainly could be wrong. Still old regardless.

Update: I'm pretty sure these are the 731i model. Mission doesn't have a year or model number printed anywhere on the speaker cabinets, drivers themselves etc., so I'm going by google image search (lame method, I know--but it works.). As such, I would guess these are from ~'96. If someone can give me a better way to identify what model these are/year produced, it would be appreciated. It seems the 731 had nasty brown woodgrain cabinets and the tweeter was mounted on a separate plate with four screws--the 731i has a black cabinet and the tweeter sits flush with the plastic frontplate which is like mine

Sure the caps could be questioned, but if a capacitor is used rather frequently, as I believe these were, then there really isn't much of a problem with caps zeroing out etc. The screws aren't loose, just that the screws were slightly stripped indicating the driver had been removed/replaced. At this point, it would be more feasible to simply find the original driver as they are available. Then I wouldn't have to replace the tweeters because of crossover frequencies etc. And if I replaced tweeters and woofers, I would likely need a new crossover, and by that point might as well just get new speakers as you said.

Haha, and no I don't intend on purchasing anything upon going to the place. I only intend to buy used since electronic equipment doesn't hold its value very well. And the type of people who do buy this stuff new usually treat it quite well as they're aware of how much they paid. What would your thoughts be on a set of Mission floorstanding speakers with subwoofer and center speaker for $500 (from about 2000)? I can get a link if necessary.

And I'm always open to other ideas. I'll admit I love B&W, and even if they're 10-15 years old, I would be more than happy to give them a look. I'm not looking at price so much (I could potentially spend up to $700) but more at what I'm getting and what the sound quality is like. If I can get a great set of speakers for 200-300, then I'd be very happy. I like the Missions I have right now because they play music with such passion! I haven't heard such a quality in speakers for quite some time, but then I haven't heard the really good stuff either.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1537
Registered: Oct-10
Yes, it was quite nice to hear the 801s. It was in a store that held seminars hosted by reps from various companies. The Peach Tree demo was good too!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Plymouth

Canada

Post Number: 16348
Registered: Jan-08
Super

Those 801 was also my favorite but need a amplifier with the same calibre, I had never see a Denon fitted with those speakers!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1545
Registered: Oct-10
Yeah Plym, Denon doesn't exactly meet the high end criteria, but it sounds WAY better than you'd think!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Plymouth

Canada

Post Number: 16349
Registered: Jan-08
I had a Denon which is not good at all in my point of view, I gived it to my daughter, the problem is the cheap power supply!

My Yamaha home theater receiver sound better!

Recently I buyed 4 cheap but surprising Canadian speakers from Precision Acoustics, those speakers which cost only 80$/pair are amazing!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1548
Registered: Oct-10
That's funny Plym, my Denon has a pretty decent power supply considering it was only $400. Keep in mind it's stereo. It seems that Denon's more upscale HT models have bigger power supplies in relation to the amp than their cheaper HT models. Personally, I like the sound of Denon way better than Yamaha. It seems that Yamaha lost interest in sound quality some years back. To each his own though.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1549
Registered: Oct-10
Jexx, is it possible that someone replaced the speaker terminals? I have done this on some older speakers I've had.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Plymouth

Canada

Post Number: 16350
Registered: Jan-08
Super

I buyed a cheap Yamaha HT receiver then it sound better than my 400$ Denon, the Denon is too much smooth without definition in sound, for sure my Adcom is a bunch over those amplifiers but need also better speaker and source!

I can admit that this Yahaha does not fit with my High end speaker then a good source!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1553
Registered: Oct-10
You might like the sound of the Denon with Mirage speakers Plym, especially with 12 awg speaker wire.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Plymouth

Canada

Post Number: 16355
Registered: Jan-08
super

I know the Mirage but from the 80's, I hope they sound better today because it was a little agressive!

That's why you like it with the Denon!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1558
Registered: Oct-10
I never got to hear Mirage till 3 yrs ago Plym, but powered by Denon, they make a truly stellar team for the price range. If Mirage is aggressive and Denon is laid back, I guess they off set each other. So you made a good point Plym. I think our tastes are a little different too.

 

Platinum Member
Username: Plymouth

Canada

Post Number: 16357
Registered: Jan-08
I don't know for you Super but for me a good system is able to reproduce any kind of music from classic to heavy metal without agressivity, with the higher end system you must heard more detail with each instruments in their proper positions if the recording was made live with only 2 micros.

My experience in live music show and my testing instrument helped me to found rapidly what is not good in a system, which frequencies is over the others then how remove the problem!

Understand by experience in what a power supply improve the sound as well that the importance of the power of the power stage, the voltage of the preamp is a good point, don't think that 12 volts is a reference but to much less for a Class A!

We can discuss on it for a year but the better thing is that you come see me then see my setting and my systems which is the best to understand my point of view!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1561
Registered: Oct-10
Well Plym, I see what you are saying. However, I find that Denon/Mirage set up provides very clean, accurate detailed sound with any type of music. It does well with movies too. Again, the power supply is ample at least for the volumes I listen at, low to moderate. I recently blasted the 1812 overture (Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, Erich Kunzel conducting, Telarc, 1979) and handled the cannons like nobody's business. Of course, I'll upgrade to high end if I ever can, but for now, this system DOES deliver the goods! If upgrading ever becomes feasible, this system will go into the bedroom.

As for paying you a visit, going to Canada just isn't a real possible right now. Maybe some day my friend.

 

Gold Member
Username: Illuminator

USA

Post Number: 5533
Registered: Apr-05
Curious, what are your thoughts on these B&W's? I assume they're pretty old as the review is from 1995: http://cgi.ebay.com/B-W-CDM-Bookshelve-Speaker-Black-Ash-/230637460804?pt=Speake rs_Subwoofers&hash=item35b3105d44

Would a pair like this be better? http://cgi.ebay.com/B-W-Bowers-Wilkins-DM601-Bookshelf-Stereo-Speakers-/360374933256?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item53e8051708

I'm not looking to buy just yet, but trying to get some input. I got to hear some new B&W's and they're my favorite speaker so far. Plus based on my older ones, they sound the best with my amplifier...
 

Platinum Member
Username: Plymouth

Canada

Post Number: 16363
Registered: Jan-08
Hi Jexx!

Usualy all B&W's product are good even old one!

Which amplifier you use to drive those speaker?
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1568
Registered: Oct-10
I agree Plym, B&Ws are pretty good, especially anything in the 800 series. However, what I must tell Jexx, is that buying things on ebay is a crap shoot. They might be in great shape or maybe not. You might find a better deal on used ones else where.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2432
Registered: Oct-07
Some hi-end stores will have a used/trade/consignment section.
I'd pay 'em a visit. Everything eventually wears out so I'd be aware of stuff like the caps in amps over....15 years old...or speakers with any sign of surround rot or sun damage.

As for super visiting Canada? Well, I'm guessing at some kind of border crossing issue....
Is saying that in bad taste, these days?
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1569
Registered: Oct-10
I am not worried about crossing borders Leo.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1343
Registered: Jul-07
Some B&W models present a fairly difficult load to amplifiers, so be cautious. It is critical Jexx to ensure you have a good amplifier/speaker match, otherwise a decent speaker will not sound like much if the amp cannot drive them adequately.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1570
Registered: Oct-10
Which models would those be Chris? I only ask because when I heard 801s connected to Denon integrated, it was only rated at 80 wpc. I should mention here that it was Denon's 100 yr anniversary model. It was $2500 and probably had a beefier power supply than most of their gear.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Plymouth

Canada

Post Number: 16376
Registered: Jan-08
Chris is right but for the small model I can see no problem!
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1344
Registered: Jul-07
The 801's aren't so problematic, but the 800's are.....which makes the 92 db/1W/1M specification very misleading.

To quote Stereophile "a low impedance value of 3.94 ohms will be severely magnified by a capacitive phase angle of 55 degrees.".

That's why sensitivity ratings are about as reliable as wattage ratings in terms of usefulness.

I'm not going to look-up every B&W model ever made.....once you think you know what model you are interested in you can do just what I did.....google to find the measurements. If you don't know how to interpret them, you can get some help here. Jan knows this stuff way better than I do. If you can't find measurements online, contact the manufacturer or a dealer to see if you can get them.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1571
Registered: Oct-10
Thanks Chris, but the 801 was my main point of interest. So, no need for looking up other models. Thanks again.

 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2433
Registered: Oct-07
right you are, Chris.
BUT, just try prying the phase data out of a speaker manufacturer.
The rest of the 'data'? Might as well have been written by Stephen King.
Stereophile is the only place I know to get reliable measured data for this parameter.

I do have a few preferences in its presentation, however:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/component/content/article/228.html

And even in the way an amplifer gets bench measured
http://www.sonicdesign.se/amptest.htm
OR
http://www.audiograph.se/Downloads/PowerCube_12p_brochure_complete.pdf

enjoy:
 

Platinum Member
Username: Plymouth

Canada

Post Number: 16381
Registered: Jan-08
Hi Leo!

I like your third link about the PowerCube graphs, that proove what I say about power supply then power stage of the amp, this is the reason why a Mac is a Mac, strong and powerfull able to drive all speakers, the only problem is in the concept of a speaker and what they use like amp!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1572
Registered: Oct-10
Stephen King huh Leo? Lol!

It seems that most companies that make anything only want to give you useless specs and nothing really helpful. I actually had the fortune of meeting a Denon rep who told me what SLDC (signal level devided construction) actually means. Their website gave me pure BS! It means that they keep the power supply as far from the amp as possible to minimize hum from getting to the amp. Whoa! Big trade secret! Ooh... So, b&w doesn't seem any worse than any other co. to me.
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