Sub Add-On

 

New member
Username: Jmltinc

Post Number: 1
Registered: Dec-10
Hi folks,

New to the Group and hoping for good advice.

I would like to compliment a pair of Pioneer HPM-100's with a JBL 1500GTi subwooffer.

I was considering a 5 cu ft sealed box in the corner, active crossover, and a dedicated 500W amplifier.

Any thoughts to this scheme?
Crossover point?
Downward firing in a corner?
What symmetry should the box have?

All suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,
-John
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 491
Registered: Oct-10
5 cu ft? Sounds a lot larger than you'll need or want. First, I'd contact JBL and find out what size box they recommend and whether it should be sealed or ported. If ported, length and diameter of tube.

The subwoofer should be kept as far away from walls and corners as possible. Otherwise, it will probably be boomy and over powering.

The crossover point, like the level and exact location will be a matter of trial & error until you find out what works best. I recommend filtering sub bass away from your main speakers as this will give them cleaner sound. How much will again depend on trial and error. You might filter as low as 40 Hz down away or as high as 120 Hz down. You can use all kinds of test equipment for this, but the best tool of all is your ears.
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 494
Registered: Oct-10
If you do put the sub in a corner, you'll need to keep its level pretty low.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15603
Registered: May-04
.

It would appear you're trying to use a driver intended for car audio in your home? I know you don't have HPM100's in your car unless you're driving a panel truck. As a rule car subs don't work well in home systems. This would be a call you need to make by understanding the T/S parameters of the subwoofer. I'm not finding any T/S parameters for this driver but I'm also not devoted to doing the legwork on this. Do you have access to the parameters of this driver?

If so, first, do you understand T/S parameters and how they influence the enclosure design? Second, why not choose a driver actually meant for home audio use?


.
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 503
Registered: Oct-10
"I know you don't have HPM100s in your car unless you're driving a panel truck."

You mean aside from having no room for my sons, I couldn't put a pair of these in the back seat of my Kia Spectra? LOL!
 

New member
Username: Jmltinc

Post Number: 2
Registered: Dec-10
Hi Folks, thanks for the replies!

I have a lot to answer; I'll do my best.

Regarding sealed enclosure volume, JBL's spec sheet for a particular freq response @ 2.83V is 1.85 cu ft. A January 1992 issue of Car Stereo Review dropped the speaker in a 5.3 cu ft sealed box and RAVED. Their modelling suggested an enclosure between 2.5 and 5 cu ft (sealed). They also quoted JBL as suggesting a ported enclosure between 2.5 and 7 cu ft (for 35 Hz).

Yes, I had the speaker in a mobile installation in a box a shade over 4 cu ft. It was ported and I found it disappointing. I attribute the poor performance to my inabiility to devote time to properly tuning the port.

I have all the Thiele/Small parameters and would be glad to post them if they will help. Quickies would include a Total Q of 0.34, Free Air Resonance of 35 Hz, and a Compliance Volume of 8.01 cu ft. I am not sure if it breaks the rules of the Forum, but the link is: http://www.retrevo.com/support/JBL-1500GTi-manual/id/619dj280/t/2/ I am ignorrant as to why a driver made for a car would make a difference in a home. Please educate me.

What are your thoughts? They are appreciated.

Thanks, Again.
-John
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 507
Registered: Oct-10
Ultimately, it has to sound good to you, but if you put the sub in a corner, you'll be real popular with your wife, kids, neighbors and local police, ect.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15607
Registered: May-04
.

The retrevo link doesn't do it for me. And I'm not having much luck with a search engine when I try to call up specs.

If "total Q" is being used as the equivalent to "Qts", then this driver would fall at what I consider the very edge of being suitable for a sealed enclosure. You can use any number of on line calculators to decide just how well this driver will match your projected enclosure. Here's a very basic calculator; http://www.diysubwoofers.org/sld/

As with most JBL woofers this would probably work better as a vented system but will require more math and more tinkering to get good results. Sealed systems are simpler to make work as the stuffing of the enclosure can make up for quite a bit of miscalculation on the math.

For a 15" driver five cubic feet isn't all that large though in an average sized room five cubic feet of subwoofer cabinet can be rather difficult to deal with. I'm assuming you want to use this driver because you have it and buying a driver actually meant for home use would cost more cash. If you're convinced JBL intended this driver as a workable unit for a home audio system, then you shouldn't have any problems. It's not all that uncommon though for a car system driver to have a frequency response modelled to a car's interior or to have a limited range of voice coil motion traded for raw power handling which might suit a particular desire for car use but isn't really applicable to home systems. If you've done the research to prove to yourself this is at least a workable driver for in home use, then you only need to decide how to build the system.

Since this isn't a DIY site for the most part no one is likely to have direct experience with the driver you own. More specifically, since you are intending to use a driver most often meant for car use, no one here will have any direct knowledge of how this driver suits a home subwoofer situation. I suspect the Car Stereo Review system wasn't used in a home subwoofer installation so a car stereo magazine raving about a subwoofer in a car doesn't exactly make me want to investigate the driver as a possible driver for a home sub. Most car stereo enthusiasts will expect something vastly differrent from their subwoofer than will most home audio system users. Where you fall on the spectrum of wanting a driver that "hits" vs a driver that is ultimately musical and transparent is unknown to me but the difference would make quite a bit of difference to which driver I would select.

You might want to try the diyaudio.com sites. They have a good amount of loudspeaker designers over there and one of them might have some direct experience with this driver.

Downward firing? I don't think that would be best for this driver but again it is on the edge of what I would consider suitable. Corner placement? No way to tell, it's your room and your sound. I would send you to a few subwoofer placement webpages before I just said corners are best. As with anything audio, each placement has its tradeoffs. The JBL should be efficient enough to not require the SPL boost found in corner placement if that's what you're considering.

Crossover depends on what you want from the system. The HPM100's don't have much useable bass extension beneath about 60Hz and then the ported enclosure response falls of rapidly. Group delay wasn't even a real consideration of the Pioneer designers back in the '70's - it was just called "bass reflex sound" back then. IMO the lumpiness and "thudiness" of the Pioneer's mid-bass will make blending the HPMs with any subwoofer a challenge.


.
 

New member
Username: Jmltinc

Post Number: 3
Registered: Dec-10
Thank you Jan for enlightening me with your insights. I always like to learn something new.

Yes, the Total Q was the Qes, and yes - I own the driver and it is in fine shape. The size of the enclosure is not that much of an issue - sound quality is what counts. I am more concerned with enclosure ratios (l x w x h).

Now, I understand the difference between car and home drivers - kinda; but could excursion not be managed by power level? Incidentally, the max excursion for this driver is .22". I cannot tell you if it is optimized for a car, but I am at a loss how a driver would make that big of a difference. I would think it is all about enclosure and/or porting. My ignorrance shows again.

My thought is to drop it into a sealed box, play with crossover points, and then port/stuff/baffle - whatever it takes to try and make it work. Time is now on my side.

I appreciate the feedback.

For the specs I Googled "jbl 1500gti" - it was the third hit.

Again, your additional comments are most welcome.

Thank you so much.
-J
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 520
Registered: Oct-10
John, speakers/drivers are specifically designed for car or home use. One won't usually work very well in the wrong application. Just like you wouldn't use house paint on your car or visa versa, right? Each type of paint has a specific purpose. Speakers are the same way. I really recommend just getting a powered home subwoofer, keeping it at least 2 feet from tne wall if at all possible and being done with it.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1892
Registered: Oct-07
John,
You say you are concerned 'with enclosure ratios'.
Well, the theoretically perfect box is built with the 'golden ratio' as the constant.
see link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

The short of it is that you pick 3 dimensions for your box. Each dimension is 1.618 times the next dimension shorter. You pick dimensions that when multiplied yield the size (volume) you desire.

You can do this in a few minutes with a 'scientific' calculator or perhaps use Excel.
Example.
1 foot basic side. X 1.62 = 1.62 feet.....multiply again and you get 2.61 feet for the 3rd side. Multiply 1x1.62x2.62 gives about 4.25 cubic feet and is in 'the golden ratio'.
The advantages of this design are few standing waves and few 'resonant' frequencies in common.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 15593
Registered: Dec-04
I like what John has going on. johnnie has current software and a good head.
The impedence can always be crossed over for a better load, the control (active) is the big ticket.
 

New member
Username: Jmltinc

Post Number: 4
Registered: Dec-10
Well, I need to bone-up on the difference between auto and home speakers. Having said that, I guess I will search for a new driver - one intended for home use. Suggestions? The 100's regularly see 150 Watts, and I have a spare 500W amp, so a low efficiency driver would be a nice addition.

All components are separates and the thought of a powered sub does not sit well. I also don't have the $$$ to match a powered sub to the exisiting set-up. I have a Polk for Home Theatre, and it is marginal and expensive.

Thanks for reiterating the Golden Rule. I knew that, but thought asymmetry might break up internal resonant modes.

I has no software, although I have seen plenty out there. Does me no good without basic questions answered however. For the record, my head went a very long time ago!!! Yes, I was thinking crossover points, slope, and level management. Kind of a backward way of doing things.

You folks were very patient. Thanks to all.
-John
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 542
Registered: Oct-10
You might want to see about a passive sub already in a box and power it with your 500 watt amp. You should shoot for reletively high sensitivity/efficiency. You don't want your amp to work too hard. Don't worry about power handling of the driver, it's essentially a meaningless spec.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 15597
Registered: Dec-04
what 500W amp are we looking at?

If it is a D-amp (like my Gallo sub amps), then some basics are covered, such as active outputs, phase control and XO.
Active XO's are available from Behringer for tryouts, and cheap. These work.
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 555
Registered: Oct-10
That's good advice Nuck, I'll have to check into that if my sense of adventure ever returns.
 

New member
Username: Jmltinc

Post Number: 5
Registered: Dec-10
The amp is a 90's vintage Carver 2AU size - offhand, I think it is a TFM-35. I expect it is Class AB. Only good for sub duty IMO. Just don't sound as clean as the Pioneer Spec-2.

I looked at the Behringer crossover. I like their stuff - a lot of bang for the buck. I use several of their pieces to condition mic audio for ham radio. But, the inputs are all balanced.

I could add a direct box balun, but I am just adding more componetry. I was looking at a Nady active crossover with unbalanced inputs/outputs. Not the greatest name though...

Thanks,
-J

More research to be done.
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 557
Registered: Oct-10
The Nady might work out though. You never know till you try!
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1896
Registered: Oct-07
Some folks over at AA and elsewhere like the 'cost no object' Marchand solution for crossovers.

http://www.marchandelec.com/

If i wanted to 'go active', and could afford the bunch of Bryston or Pass it'd take to make it work......this is where I'd start looking for Crossovers.
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 565
Registered: Oct-10
Cost might be an object. In fact, I think it is.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15609
Registered: May-04
.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/CAR/Boxes%20and%20Parameters/1500GTI.pdf
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15611
Registered: May-04
.

An Fs of 35Hz for a 15" driver wouldn't appear to be the best choice for a home sub IMO. That's a lot of box at 5 cu.feet for 35Hz assuming that's what the calculations indicate is possible with a sealed enclosure. 35Hz is easily obtainable with a vented enclosure but nowdays 35Hz just isn't in the ballpark for home use subs where you want response down into the 20's. I guess it depends what you're after, John. I think, if you look around at contemporary drivers, you're going to find most home audio low frequency drivers are capable of an Fs closer to the mid to low 20Hz range with a flatter response curve than I'm seeing on the JBL spec sheets. http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-404s.pdf Xmax has increased significantly over the years since your driver was new and this will translate into smaller enclosures for a still lower Fs and typically much lower harmonic distortion numbers. I'm no expert when it comes to car stereo but the driver you own would appear to me to be a vintage example of what car audio was when the driver was designed. Offhand, I'd say you might be spending a lot of time and money working with a driver that isn't really going to qualify as a true home audio subwoofer unless you have satellite speakers that stop making bass at about 70Hz. Like I said, it's whatever you want it to be but a low end of 35Hz isn't all that impressive today particularly if the response is maximized to play in that 80Hz range where car stereo systems thrive.


Why don't you contact PartsExpress before you proceed with this project. They list "car subwoofers" as a separate division of drivers so they can probably do a good job of filling you in on the differences between car and home use drivers.

http://www.parts-express.com/home.cfm


If you're still interested in a project after you get done with PartsExpress, you might consider the BASH plate amps instead of your old Carver and an external crossover. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-750

The crossover goes down low enough to be useful and the filter action is steeper than normal for good integration with your main speakers. Bass boost can be accomplished if desired. There's also a 500 watt version available. I think you'll find sticking to the accepted ways of doing a home sub will be less complicated and more successful than trying to force the Behringer into a situation where it doesn't really fit well. Having used a Behringer crosssover for a temporary sub and then switching to the BASH unit for my DIY sub, I wouldn't go back to the Behringer myself.


A Spec 2, eh?! I wouldn't have expected many of those amps to still be around. http://powerampshop.com/pioneer-spec-2-power-amplifier-amp-poweramp

So, how do you intend to make the connections to your system to drive this subwoofer?

.
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 567
Registered: Oct-10
You'd be surprized what's still around and how many Jan. I know a guy who has had his field magnetic from the first year they were made (82? 83?) refurbed twice just because he likes it.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15612
Registered: May-04
.

I'm constantly amazed at what people want to restore. I watched an auto auction the other night and someone paid $9k for a '67 Dodge Dart.
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 568
Registered: Oct-10
Yeah, didn't anyone tell this guy that just because it's antique, doesn't mean it's a collector's item? I guess he labors under the illusion, "If it's antique, it must be chic!"
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1898
Registered: Oct-07
9 large for a Dart? What was that guy smoking?

I can think of a few oldies I think are cool, but that's too much.
The word 'classic' has lost meaning in the car world.

But, I sure would like an SS427 Impala Convertible 4spd.
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 586
Registered: Oct-10
Yeah Leo! Now we're talkin' 69 4-4-2 would be nice too!
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1901
Registered: Oct-07
I watched the 'Meechum' auto auction....once.
Some of the prices were simply wacky..and for what they have now given the name 'retro mod'.
Take a run-of-mill '66 Chevelle, add a 3xx (50 or 27), nice rims and paint. Good interior redo....original doesn't matter.
Ask some large $$$ and you'll find somebody to cough up.

From last summer:
Upload
 

New member
Username: Jmltinc

Post Number: 6
Registered: Dec-10
Wow, a lot to respond to. I'll try my best - not necessarily in order:

Yes, cost is an object. I simply just don't have the 'free' money I once had when younger. I think, with age comes some fiscal responsibility. But the desire remains.

I am looking to go very low on the bass with a flat response. Another good argument for a modern driver (and perhaps enclosure) - but $4K plus amp is not in the equation.

Regarding restoring antiques, I am not out to restore anything. The Spec-2 is in the same shape it was when purchased new. I opened it the other day and saw no leakage from the lytics, and it played as sweet as before. I would hold a spec-2 up against most SS amps made in the last 30 years. The power supply is massive and holds up under demanding conditions.

While it is no Pierce Arrow, it is certainly a Stutz Bearcat. The Carver on the other hand...

In the end, I will probably build a large sealed enclosure and drop the old JBL relic into it and use the Nady and Carver. I'll start filling the enclosure with partitions and stuffing; perhaps porting it too. In the end my bet is the majority of this Group is correct (that is why I came) and it is crap.

But it keeps an old man off the streets.

Thanks,
-John
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 605
Registered: Oct-10
May as well have some fun!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 15614
Registered: Dec-04
John, if you are on free time, than thats cool.
I can think of any number of Single driver designs that I would rather start with, especially OB Lowther (or Fostex) ,if I just got a bandsaw and first aid kit.
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 614
Registered: Oct-10
Nevermind the first aid kit, just go to faith healer. It's called "the laying on of stumps"!
 

New member
Username: Jmltinc

Post Number: 7
Registered: Dec-10
I must say, I stumbled into a group of knowledge (with respect)!

My foray into what I consider audiophyle stereo began in the late 1970's. When I purchased a new home in 1996, the acoustics were so bad, I put the gear in storage and just used a so-so Home Theatre set-up.

But the drive was still there, so I turned my effort to competition-quality car stereo (spent way too much money). I gave up on that because there were too many bells and whistles to maintain (automated drawers that opened and closed to expose the amplifiers and ODR network gear, dual alternators, water-cooled, damn neon lights...). And the SPL was too much for old ears (no, I could not listen at comfortable levels).

Newly divorced, the old equipment came out of storage and sparked new life into this old body. I did not realize how many years had passed and how much advancement had been made - OB? I had to look that up!

No mas! Time to take your advice and look for a contemporary driver(s).

So, Instead of trying to polish a turd, I am open to all suggestions regarding unpowered drivers; If you please. I would like to use the crappy Carver TFM-35 and an electronic crossover for the sub. The HPM-100's stay.

I am open to all suggestions, but would like to keep the cost reasonable. I am not interested in punchy bass. I am looking for the very low (and linear).

Thanks, again.
The Believer
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15620
Registered: May-04
.

John, have you been in a dedicated audio store in the past few years? The type that existed in the late 1970's? Not a big box or a big box wannabe masquerading as an audio store that sells mostly home theater? You get to like whatever you want to like but the world of high end audio has come a significant way since the HPM's. A thing called Theile/Small came along and listeners became aware of qualities the HPM's, Spec 2's and Carver's were never meant to reproduce. The Spec 2 was competing with SAE and Phase Linear. TipToes weren't even around when you bought your gear and only a few people had heard of Monster Cable speaker cable. Those nickle plated connectors on all that gear you own have oxidized a dozen times over. You might want to take off the double knit polyesters and try something new just to know what's available before you launch into this.

As a bachelor do you get to hear live music at all?


.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15621
Registered: May-04
.

John, you don't happen to have a Pickering "needle" on your PL-12D, do you?
 

New member
Username: Jmltinc

Post Number: 8
Registered: Dec-10
In the Chicago area, there was a high-end outfit that had a couple places in the area. Big Screen and Dolby Pro logic were the rage. Ribbon speakers were in vogue at the time. They disappeared about the time my acoustics did. So to answer that question - no, I have not been to a High End Shop in the last few years. In fact, I know of none in the general area of which I live. In this neck of the woods (I moved from Chicago in 1996), "High-End" audio shop's idea of High End is an Onkyo receiver.

I know the Hundos were designed before T/S became THE parameters for design, but they do sound awesome to this ear. And, I am sure I could buy many times better, but the idea of this thread was to add a sub - not purchase a new system. That is way beyond my means. No, I must live with what I have, perhaps tweak it where I can.

How did you know my connectors had oxidized so many times? Ha! I never gave them a chance when I used the system. I used tuner lube regularly. I still have the original monster cable too. Yes, I know, time for new cable...

I have only been single for a few weeks. Live music? Not in decades. If I did, I couldn't reproduce the sound anyway. Loan me a couple Mil and I'll try!

All kidding aside, I do get your point. But as I said, I just want to add a sub...

Thanks,
-J
 

New member
Username: Jmltinc

Post Number: 9
Registered: Dec-10
John, you don't happen to have a Pickering "needle" on your PL-12D, do you?
No, I whittled down a piece of birch...
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 15625
Registered: May-04
.

John, cactus needles had just barely gone out of fashion when you purchased your gear.

I'm not suggesting you plonk down money for a new system. But building from a system that has the amount of ... uh, "maturity" your's has acquired might not be the best long range plan either. Not knowing is the worst thing you could do IMO. I don't doubt you like the sound you hear, that's not the issue. Things change, take that AMC (nee; Rambler) Pacer you're still driving ...

Honestly, systems have changed considerably over the last 35 years. Making a component work for personal reasons is fine, if that's really what you want to do. But doing so without any larger scheme of what's available and what might be best for similar costs is not IMO the wisest long term plan. For the money invested in your plan you could have sold the Carver on line and not bothered with the Behringer or NADY and instead purchased a Hsu sub that is actually a sub worth having in today's market with some money to pocket or put towards another improvement in the system or a few nights of live music.

Liking the HPM's is fine also, though you should realize they were built as large "bookshelf" speakers. I don't remember the last time I saw a speaker manufacturer claim to have built a "bookshelf" speaker. At the time you purchased your gear speaker stands were little low slung affairs that at best just tilted the speaker backwards or got it up above the coffee table height. John, an entire audio glossary has developed since you bought this gear; http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/bbs/stereophile_audio-glossary.html Your system doesn't speak in that dialect. That's not bad, per se, but you should come to terms with what is being spoken in order to successfully navigate putting what you have to good use. Again, kind of like thinking you just need to adjust the carburetors when you have fuel injection and computer controlled systems.

Oxidation happens in older gear. That was one of the main reasons for the switch to gold plated connectors in audio. A 35 year old nickle plated connector will look nasty no matter how well you've tried to maintain it over the years while a gold plated connector would look almost brand new - and sound that way too. Trust me on this - I use vintage components and I sold the gear you own back when it was new. Quite honestly, no matter what level your listening is at, just having clean, non-corroded connections will make an audible difference. Tuner lube is, I'm sorry to say, old fashioned too. You might also consider the numerous connection points internal to your system, they have all experienced the same aging process as those RCA's as have the push on connectors internal to the HPM's.

The original Monster Cable has probably turned green with oxidation many, many years ago which makes it less desirable than new zip cord - which is, nowdays, about as low on the "desirable" list of possible speaker cables as you can get. Since you haven't mentioned any interconnect cables, I'm assuming you are still using the freebies that were thrown in with the gear. You've also not mentioned what you are using for source players or pre amplifier.


I hate to be the one to break the news but looking at the caps in the Spec 2 won't do you much good. If the amp has been in storage for several years and you pull it out and connect it to 120VAC, the chances of those caps going bad in a few weeks is pretty high. Vintage gear which has been stored should be brought up to full power very slowly while being monitored on a scope. Filter and coupling caps should be given a chance to reform as they have very likely dried out internally and when hit with full voltage will eventually fail. Hopefully, you're equipment won't have problems but, if you suddenly hear a loud 60Hz hum, immediately shut everything down. Consider that the caps in your speakers also have 35 years of age on them. They aren't going to cause ground noises but they are problematic.




So, what you do with the rest of the system is up to you - as is the subwoofer. But, in today's market and with your existing equipment vs what's available, DIY'ing the sub is a debatable project. Gaining a clear perspective on what you have vs. what is current thinking in audio is not. You wouldn't just slap some new wheels on that Pacer and go, would you? The same applies to your system, at least go look and listen to what's out there today. You don't have to buy a new system in one day or one year. But, IMO you need more of a plan than just making do with what's available just because it's readily available or familiar. You need to know how what's available stacks up in terms of value against what else you might have as an option. And, you might need to make a few contacts just in case your 35 year old system starts to get creaky in the AM's (and PM's too) due to age. What's the worst that could happen other than you'll run into a salesperson who wasn't even born when you made this purchase? So look for the shop with the old geezer working there and talk to him. If you do nothing other than talk - he might tell you, "They don't build 'em like that any more", which is true both good and bad, you'll have a better prespective on where you might want to go with this. After you've gained some perspective you can do whatever you care to with more confidence you've got the best plan in mind.


.
 

Silver Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 674
Registered: Oct-10
In addition to what Jan said, the last receiver I had was about 10 to 15 yrs old when the tuner quit working. The preamp and power amp still worked, but for how much longer? Once one part goes.... I don't listen to radio at home very much, I just saw the failure of the tuner as a warning sign. Replacing right then wasn't exactly what I wanted to do, but the message was clear. The old one was an Optimus, the new one is a Denon. Serious upgrade! I don't think even people who don't like Denon would argue that point. You might find similar failures in your current system.

Jan, cactus needles? That's mean!
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