I've enjoyed every Harbeth I've listened to but never had one in my home. These will be in a 9 x 10 room with 8ft ceilings. A difficult room as it's almost a square box. If I buy them I will inevitably build a system around them but they will have to live with a old Marantz 2220B receiver in the interim. I will also listen to them in the main system with the Sonneteer amp and in my wifes office with her NAD.
I heard the previous version a few times. Excellent speaker that was very hard to criticize. I thought they could have used a bit more presence, but that may have been what they were fed.
I'd love to hear them behind a pacey amp like a Naim. I hear that's a very popular pairing. If your Sonneteer swings like you say it does, it should be a very intriguing combo. I love my father's 2220B, so I'd be very interested to hear what yours will do for them.
How about tracking down an old original Nait or Nait 2? Very few creature comforts, but for what seems like an office or den system, the lack of bells and whistles may be easier to deal with. The old Naits and BBC speakers with a TT were a very popular combo back in the day according to many sources, including my Scottish Naim/Linn/Rega dealer.
How about an original Nait, LP12 or P-25 and P3SER system? Please let me live vicariously through you!
"If I buy them I will inevitably build a system around them but they will have to live with a old Marantz 2220B receiver in the interim."
I suppose if the Queen of England visited, you'd take her to Jack in the Box. The Harbeth's are a monitor type loudspeaker - the newest version of the BBC's LS3/5a - and they are mean to show what is fed to them. The Marantz is not what they were meant to be paired with and does not have the character or precision necessary for the Harbeth's. Sloppy bass, diffuse to non-existent staging and rolled highs are not going to play well on the speaker. Cheap amplifiers in general are not what the Harbeth's are meant for.
Of course you did read that the Harbeth's would not be bought to pair with the Marantz, right. They would be at the heart of a system built around them. I can get them at a good price now and put together a system later. I'm hoping to have a high quality system in the office to play in case our granddaughter comes to live with us and I change the seating arrangement in the living room to no longer include a system (at least temporarily).
Still it will be fun to hear what the Marantz will do with them, though I certainly suspect that your description is accurate. The Sonneteer on the other hand should be right up the Harbeth's alley. It's a very well built, great sounding amp. We'll see. It may turn out that a lesser speaker may be more appropriate in the office...that's why the demo.
I would add that from what I've been reading, Jan. Your description sounds right on the money relative to earlier iterations of the Harbeth "3" however this latest 3 is supposedly designed to work well with a far wider variety of amplification and sources. Have you read that as well?
I believe I read that on the Harbeth website and from Alan Shaw himself.
I have never read or heard anyone claim Harbeth was not a speaker with more than sufficient resolving power to show you what was in front of it. That the crossover has been redesigned to be applicable to a wider range of high quality amplifiers I have heard. The 3/5a clones have all been designed along the same lines and with similar voicing which makes them usable with a wide range of amplifiers meaning they are very "amplifier friendly". Tubes and low powered class A amplifiers fit like a glove to the Harbeths. That doesn't mean they should be used with inexpensive, mediocre or worse components.
They remain a speaker with a 83dB sensitivity, based on that spec alone the (rather high THD and high noise, low resolution) supposed 20 watts from the Marantz would not be my choice for amplification. The small Harbeths need to be auditioned with the very best electronics. What you do afterwards is your businesss but judge the Harbeths using the type of equipment they are meant to be paired with.
The Harbeth's will be used with a Sonneteer Alabaster which is as articulate and sophisticated a sound as I've ever heard. At 3k it ain't cheap either. I will also listen to them with my wife's NAD C325BEE and then they will find a tempoary matchup with the Marantz. That is only until I can put together better and I will not hurry to do that. I want to do it right. I don't even judge my $79 Jamo's with the Marantz. Keep in mind that Stereophiles reviewer used these speakers with a Peachtree Decco and I am not a bit impressed with the sound of the Peachtree. They do indeed sound excellent on the business end of a good tube amp as these particular ones have been used with a Mastersound amp.
There's a Nait 5 on Audiogon for $500 right now. Great price for a great integrated. I think that would make an excellent combo with the Harbeths.
I don't know about the particular unit or seller worth looking into if you're serious about the speakers and adding a Naim unit IMO. The Nait 5 has a powered Stageline input, can take an external PSU, and can seperate the pre and power sections, unlike the 5i.
The pics would be too ugly as of yet as they are not optimally set up.
I have them in the office with my wife's NAD C325BEE and my Oppo 981 on a set of 26 inch wood stands that I picked up at a yard sale for $5 a few years back. The only other stands that I have are all 24 inch, and I tried them all...Solid Steel, Atacama and so on. The cheapo wood ones win the day. I would get the 2 post Skylan's later.
The entry level electronics are connected with a set of van den Hul Waterfall interconnects and van den Hul CS-122 speaker cables.
Even at only 83db efficient the NAD drives these wonderful speakers easily. These are not speakers that will play at earth shattering volumes, and that's ok with me. In my 10 x 9 office they sing quite nicely.
Will I keep them...I don't know yet. Even at a good price these are very expensive little mini monitors. I will put them through their paces on the main rig this weekend or next.
If I were a betting man I would bet that these are keepers.
Just like pretty much anything audio for me, you've got to run them through pretty much everything you have. I find that the only way you really know what ultimately sounds best and what everything is capable of. May seem like a waste of time on paper. How many things in this hobby make sense on paper? How many things seem like they'd work out well, then they sound not so good?
Glad to hear it's working out for you. Have you tried them in place of the Apes? Or are they Gorrillas? I always concurs those, kinda like gators and crocks.
I did try them in place of the Apes...the apes are more a full range speaker and they do a great job of filling my main living space. The little ole Harbeth's just weren't enough for that room until I removed the coffee table and pulled the speakers closer to my listening chair. Then they sounded great, though still bass shy. they don't exactly slam in my office and that's ok. They sound beautiful with rich tone color and very realistic relative scale .
Piano and voice are very difficult to reproduce in a convincing way. Both the DeVore's and Harbeth's have this down. Both also do very well with trumpet. They differ relative to trombone and sax with the DeVore's being more convincing with the trombone and the Harbeth's doing the sax better than I have ever heard. Cool stuff man!
I haven't heard the current ones, but the last ones were the same in that they didn't have that slam factor. You can only get so much from a small driver, no matter how good that driver is. I figured that's how they'd differ from the Apes.
Wouldn't it be great to combine the 2 into one speaker? Tradeoffs, just like everything else. I'm pretty sure they'll never be able to replace the DeVores (permanently anyway), and I'm sure you didn't have that intention when you got them. It's always nice to see if it's a possibility though.
My Naim guys guy always has a vintage Nait or two laying around. When your wallet recovers, I'll ask what they have if you're interested. They don't like selling them to people they don't know, and don't like shipping them cross country, but if it's a guy like me reassuring them it's for someone like you, they should be ok with it.
Just letting you know it's an option. They're great people, as I know you've got a few too. Old Nait's are getting more scarce.
Maybe when I've got more room and more things I need, I'll get an old Nait and build a great old small system.
Well fella's the Marantz is moving on without having been used with the P3's. Jan was right this speaker reveals everything you use with them, and they want the best you have. Running with the Sonneteer/Saturn in my office and the sound is sublime. Just bought my wife the Era Design D4's for her NAD C325BEE/Rotel RCD971 (heavily modded) setup and she is very happy with them. We now both have setups that make us happy and we have our living room back (once the old stuff is all sold). We are also making a system for our granddaughter using a Sony CD player and the Pinnacle AC650's. Amp yet to be determined. Having fun learning more about the Harbeth's. More impressions later.
The entire 3/5a series and its later versions - those not designed by the BBC group - were voiced for correct response with the grills in place. You might not agree with the designer as to what constitutes "correct response" in your system, in your room and with your sources and your ears. Many listeners removed the grills from the 3/5a's (I did) as removing the grill generally has little effect on anything beneath the top two octaves. Those are important octaves however which tend to open the speaker up a bit and provide a sound quality with just a touch more presence. So listen to what pleases you in your own home. But the final voicing was performed with the grill in place. That's always been the stated opinion of the 3/5a designers.
Yes that's exactly what Alan stated. Final voicing was done with grills in place. They do sound excellent that way as well. I find that in my room I get a little more 3 dimensionality without losing any driver integration, which has been one of the stated niggles relative to taking the grills off.
Interestingly my wife's Era's are supposed to be listened to with the grills on as well. There is even a foam insert that is supposed to attenuate the high end a bit but the sound was far better after we removed the grills. The effect was more dramatic with them than with the Harbeth's.
Nice Art! Harbeth is one of those speakers I have to hear one day, just because of their reputation. Harbeth, planar speakers, MacIntosh amps, Audio Note, single driver speakers, tube and SET amps, etc. There are just certain things that are held in such high esteem, or have a really strong following, and Harbeth is clearly one of those.
Well Dan the BBC designed Harbeths are a different kettle of fish from the rest of the Harbeth line,i think their are some older bigger Harbeths that went by the BBC philosophy though,Jan would know more about this than i do.The other speaker that fits this nitch that is equally as excellent as well is the Pro Ac Tablelites but the agenda on those are a bit different from the BBC school.
Indeed Dan, Harbeth is a line with a very loyal following and now I understand why. They ain't lyin' when they talk about how natural these speakers sound.
Congradulations Art. Looks wonderful. I have read the Harbeth reviews with interest. I never graduated from the old Rogers, but I have always used my Rogers LS3 5A monitors with a subwoofer as main speakers. I finally got a small sub to go with myQuad 11Ls. I finally really enjoy them as I should. I use small floor standing speakers for my bedroom.
So my question is if there are stand mount or bookshelf speakers that don't need a subwoofer to complete them? I assume you have found such a speaker here.
I could ask this question on Brad's thread "Which bookshelf or stand-mounted speakers have impressed you for under $1000?" If you feel that you need a sub woofer then you should list that in the speaker price quote total. A large % of my music has a stand up bass! I could ask for ideas for the smallest and least expensive speakers have adequate bass. To me that would be an acoustic bass in the room not amplified.
Kevin you should check out the Gini Ls3/5a a modern copy of your Rogers with a better tweeter,plus their transmissionline bass stands that will land you right under $1k.Or the Usher 718 basically the same speaker at the 718 tiny Dancer DMD without the diamond tweeter,or a couple more hundred bucks for the Usher S-520/SW-520 then you will really be set.
I listen to my Quad 12L2 without a sub. I really don't think they need one. I'm sure part of it is the room and placement of the speakers. My room is fairly small and maybe is laid out so that bass doesn't present too many problems. The 12L2 has very tuneful bass, but when it has to sound deep and full, with ample weight, it's all there.
I've had trouble getting my sub to blend in with my speakers, but I'll be giving it another shot. Rather than off to the side in a corner, which is where I had to set it up before, and where I think it had created troubling standing waves, in my latest room layout I can put the sub right in between my speakers and either firing forward or down. I think this might help. Failing that I will lay down some blankets as I think Chris or Stu suggested to me a while back. If that doesn't work that's okay, like I said getting the sub in there isn't a pressing matter for me.
Anyhow, Art did mention the Harbeths are a little bass shy. They use a 4.3" driver and are rated down to 75Hz. With those figures you can't really expect a speaker to shake your room unless you've also got a sub connected.
Tawaun that Gini looks interesting. Once I saw a pair of used Rogers with bass stands like that and I kick my self for not buying them. The Usher is nice looking and at a good price. The huge Hsu on my Rogers on the other hand is a monster and too much for a bedroom system.
Dan. Very interesting. I don't really need to shake the room. In fact the little NHT sub that I finally now put with my Quad 11L after a few years is very subtle so that you don't really notice it as it just fills in. I probably should have gone for the 12L but my area is all mail order.... well, except we do have a B&W dealer hereand they have some good sounding speakers.
Kevin, in a 9 x 10 room the sub is optional. Keep in mind that I don't listen to music loud. Always low to medium volume. I also don't often listen to music where I would feel that something is missing. I may buy a sub somewhere down the road for rockin' out so to speak but at this point I see no reason to consider one.