B&O Beovox S45/2 driver upgrade

 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 27
Registered: Jun-10
Hi, I would like to upgrade my B&O Beovox s45s. I want to keep the 4" but replace the tweeters & 8" paper cone mid bass drivers with another with a bit more power handling & more attacking mid bass. For the tweets, I was thinking along the lines of vifa but 8" not sure at all. I would like to keep them all Danish, either Vifa, Peerles or Sacanspeak. I don't know what models would work well in the volume of the B&O enclosures & whether I need to look at upgrading the Xovers as well. Running off a McIntosh MA5100 amp with a Velodyne CHT-R 8 active Sub , using the active high pass xover from the velodyne. Opinions & advice all welcome. Thanks in advance.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14960
Registered: May-04
.

Uh, you don't even have the speakers and amplifier up and running yet and you already want to replace components?!


The best answer I have for your immediate question is you would be better off dumping the B&O's and putting your money into better quality and more modern speakers. You're fighting a loosing battle with the B&O's (new drivers in a crap enclosure aren't going to change one of the B&O's major failings) and your game plan is exceptionally flawed in many ways.


.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 15130
Registered: Dec-04
Move up to Dalquist DQ10's, if you must remain in that realm.

The Dairy Queens are more approachable.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 33
Registered: Jun-10
I like the nostalgic cabinets as they match my vintage & antique furniture. What other nostalgic cabinets could I be looking out for?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14963
Registered: May-04
.

You bought the speakers because you liked the cabinets?! You like 1980's Danish modern?!!!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 34
Registered: Jun-10
I don't want 10" inch drivers in my apartment, too loud & only an 8" sub. I want to keep to 8" drivers. Yes, I like the cabinets, I like the older looking rosewood finish, not the newer looking ones. They look out of place with the rest of the furniture. Bookshelf speakers are more appropriate for my requirements. The 8" drivers in the cabinets have the surrounds a bit lose & warn. I have listened to the speakers on another amp & have some idea how they sound, not just guessing. I like a 3 way setup. Why am I justifying myself to you anyway? Are you here to criticize, be sarcastic or help people?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 35
Registered: Jun-10
Jan, why don't you be more specific when you say the cabinets are crap? What's wrong with them? Do you have a set or looked at them? Tell me... You haven't even made a suggestion before you decided to criticize.
 

Gold Member
Username: Gavdawg

Albany, New York

Post Number: 1518
Registered: Nov-06
Jan has worked in the A-V industry for years and is one of the more knowledgeable members on the forum.

I would take her word on the cabs.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 957
Registered: Jul-07
"Opinions & advice all welcome. "

It's amazing how many people type that but don't really mean it.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14967
Registered: May-04
.

"Are you here to criticize, be sarcastic or help people?"


Are you here to get audio help or decorating help? Why do you see my comments as critical of your decision making process? Oh, I see, because your decision making process leaves a lot to be desired. 10" drivers have nothing to do with "too loud" and I just can't get excited about someone who buys speakers because of their cabinet and then wants to change everything mechanical about the speaker before they have them working in their system. How specific do you need me to be when I say the cabinets are crap? Look at them, with their angled baffles and their thin as cardboard enclosures and bass that doesn't exist below 80Hz. The drivers are not worth upgrading when you consider this was not a popular speaker in its day. I worked in a shop that carried B&O but I seldom sold these speakers even with a B&O system, no one in the store did otherwise. These are pretty pitiful examples of what B&O never was, a $150 pair of Boston Acoustics embarrassed them and that was 25 years ago. If you want to change everything about the speaker, it's your system and your money but IMO you're just wasting your money when you could buy a half way decent speaker for the money you'll spend on these just to have a pretty cabinet. I don't think you know what you're asking to do when you start to replace drivers without any idea what fits or what works or, most importantly, what does both. But I can't argue taste, if you want these cabinets and don't care how the speakers sound after you're done jacking with them, that's your business. So, please, get off your "criticize, be sarcastic or help" schtick. I can't help if your only desire is to have a system that looks a certain way and being at least somewhat sarcastic comes easy in that situation. Why are you justifying yourself to me anyway? I made a suggestion, dump the B&O's instead of spending money on them. If you don't like that suggestion, you have other options. Why get pissed at me for telling you what you need to hear?

"It's amazing how many people type that but don't really mean it."

LOL!



.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1294
Registered: Oct-07
LCam,
Speaker design is not just replace and drop in/ plug in.
Lots of testing and these days computer stimulations go into making a speaker sound.....well, as the designer wishes.

Go to Madisound and look at the kits. Some real nice stuff there and it has been tested and is pretty good stuff and from what I've read, not all that bad a value.
You can build whatever enclosure you want from the provided plans. Make it match whatever your decor happens to be.
Problem solved without have to re-engineer someone's old work.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 38
Registered: Jun-10
You know, Jan. You answered my questions in about 2 sentences. The rest of it was Newb Bashing crap. But thanks for the constructive help, I was only asking! as I know absolutely nothing! That is why I am here and, why most people come here. Have you forgot that? I think you could do a lot better at expressing yourself nicely rather than angrily. It's a real turn off. I'm not here for the competition, just some decent advice. After all those posts, I got there in the end. lol. I don't care who you are or what you've done in the past. I don't know you but, my impressions of you & this forum are so far are less than impressive. I have to say, it's far from polite & welcoming. Just my impression. Like it or not. Don't care.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 39
Registered: Jun-10
Can I give you some advice? Relax, you will give yourself an MI... Work it out..
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 15132
Registered: Dec-04
If those B&O cabinets are exposed to lower frequencies, my guess is they will resonate, if not outright buzz.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 40
Registered: Jun-10
Having a bad day are we? you don't know what drivers would work well in the volume enclosures I have? Bull. I can figure that out anyway. I was just looking for opinions since you are the "expert" here. Or maybe you're as we in Australia would say, "stuck up" It's all in the delivery. A skill which you obviously don't have. Please, in future, don't comment in my threads. Thank you leo, Thanks for the pointer. Cheers mate.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14968
Registered: May-04
.

Remember, if I bruised your thin skin, you asked. Then when I responded, you became defensive and proceeded to ask again this time with a snotty atitude - "Why am I defending myself to you?". It was your choice to get PO'd, not mine, and it's your choice to take good advice when it's offered. Now you figure you're a speaker design expert. One more piece of advice then, just because you find a driver that works in the volume the B&O cabinet represents (which you won't really know because of their funky shape and you don't know what panel thickness they used or what B&O did inside that cabinet) doesn't mean that same generic driver will match the real size of the driver B&O used (new screw holes and possibly rabbetting of the baffle) or that fits the crossover filters of the B&O and now you're talking about working through the holes in the cabinet to pull out crossover boards and then you start choosing drivers not because they work well together but because they save you the trouble of cutting new holes or patching old ones. Now you're retro fitting an entirely new speaker made of mismtached parts that will need to be duct-taped into place into some old crap cabinets just because you like the rosewood they used. And it sounds like crap. And that's dumb. Retro fitting drivers is a pain that never really works out well. That's my expert opinion developed over forty years plus of doing this stuff. I didn't have to tell you that, I could have let you just get a headache trying to figure out what fits and probably wasting a good bit of cash doing so. And, since you're PO'd you'll probably go ahead and waste some money just to find out this isn't as simple as you think and no one on this forum can just say go buy a Dynaudio D28 driver and snap it in place. Whatever you do you are starting with a pig's ear of a speaker done up with a rosewood veneer. But if you don't care what the speakers sounds like, there's no reason to change the drivers and, if you don't care what the speaker sounds like, you should have said that at the beginning of this thread. What you're thinking of doing is a very bad idea.

Go read CH's post again.





.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14969
Registered: May-04
.

And dump the attitude. No, you cannot give me some advice.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 41
Registered: Jun-10
Yeh, Had a look at the xover set up. Not conventional. I'll have a listen first & if I'm not happy, I'll keep these for the garage & get another set of bookshelf speakers.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1295
Registered: Oct-07
What is a 'non conventional' crossover?
Most I've seen are caps, resistors and inductors...at least the in-speaker type.

Once again.....If you NEED to match finish with existing furniture, DIY is a good way to go. Something from Madisound will work.....

https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=35_40_402_408&products_id =8573
330$ for all the electronics / drivers and the enclosure is up to you.
Got a lumber yard in NSW?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 44
Registered: Jun-10
Yeh, looking at some kits atm. Found some enclosures - towers that are pre-maid from a local dealer. Just goto find suitable driver kit for the volume of these enclosures & if I can tune the port length. I have a software for that. I'm doing it backwards & I know I should be choosing the drivers 1st then either cabinets to match or make em myself but trying to avoid having to make em.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 45
Registered: Jun-10
Yep, the cabinets rattled & resonated. It's the caps which are unconventional for crossovers. They are electrolytic bipolar. Not ideal. I ended up changing the 30 year old bipolar caps for some new crossover caps, braced the cabinets, sealed them with up & added some Dynamat - Car sound deadening material inside the walls & baffle. I connected them with my 35 year old solid state transistor Monarch amp & Marantz Pm 40 SE special edition amp. I then auditioned a set of Krix Phoenix floor speakers & also a set of Krix Harmonix speakers connected to the best Cambridge Audio amp this particular audio shop had to offer. I can tell you my speakers killed them for bass & detail. They were very smooth & wonderfully warm sounding. (The 8 inch driver is a very capable driver In my opinion. No need to change. Mind you, I could have found a driver replacement to suit the cabinets if required. I could have modeled several drivers using winisd or bass box pro & modified the crossovers, woopee, what a hassle, lol). The only advantage the Krix had over mine were vocals which which were warmer & richer. These speakers I auditioned were retailing for $1500 & $2500 Australian respectively. The problem with the B&O speakers were the bipolar electrolytic caps which are less than ideal for crossovers & 30 years old, the rigidness of the cabinets or lack there of. A little TLC, 2 hours work & $50 & I absolutely adore them. In my opinion, they are a fantastic sounding speaker. Just a side note, the Monarch sounds better than the Marantz. JAN, no offense but boy am I'm glad I did not take your advice. You cant know it all I suppose. I may have lack of knowledge in home audio but I do have some experience with harmonics from my background in car audio. The car audio environment is a less than ideal environment for a sound system with cabin gain issues, impedance rise, vibration & reflection issues, requiring a striped interior, panel bracing & sound deadening. Hours & hours of testing can go into the placement of speakers & experimenting with xover points particularly when running a system fully active. Just try & achieve 130 DB plus with clarity & no listening fatigue, getting a snap of a twig that strikes the back of your neck & a thwack of a bass drum in your chest while hearing the creak of the bass pedal itself. I am fussy with sound. No head aches, no wasting of cash & definitely no crap sound, JAN. Re-furbishing these B&O speakers was a dandy idea. Advice was taken from "Claus" of Copenhagen Denmark & member of Beo world. www.beoworld.org

http://forum.beoworld.org/forums/t/32520.aspx
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1317
Registered: Oct-07
ElCam,
Glad you took your own advice....and it worked to your satisfaction.

Sidenote:: Krix speakers get NO play here in the states. I don't know about our Canadian or European contributors, but here in the US, Krix are for kids.

Dynamat is a good idea. There is at least 1 DIY guy I know who swears by it in rebuilding Magnepan panels. It is installed between the speaker driver and the frame.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 15149
Registered: Dec-04
Well done EC, I hope you are happy with your efforts.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 46
Registered: Jun-10
I wasn't impressed with the Krix for their price. I think they are over priced. There is a kit available here soon in September. "Vifa" You can purchase the speakers separately & cabinets separately or both. $700 Aust. pair: 2 x Vifa P17wJ cast mag basket & D25AG tweeter. 3 way Llinkwitz-Riley filter. Tweet high pass - 12db/oct 3.5K, Mid low pass - 6db/oct 3.0K perhaps higher with roll off, sub low - 6db/oct 200 Hz, should boost 3db below 200 Hz. Has impedance equalization. Cabinets are ported tuned to 35Hz 50 Lt. Looking at these for my main Floor speakers. That's very cheap for Danish speakers here. I haven't listened to these drivers before. Anyone know much about them? Big demand for them ATM.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1319
Registered: Oct-07
http://www.parts-express.com/webpage.cfm?WebPage_ID=121

If you'd listened to Jan, in an earlier post, you'd a seen the Vifa line at Parts Express.
Madisound, which I ref'd sells many enclosures in a variety of sizes and shapes. I'm reasonably certain you could have found a pair of 50l cabinets in Cherry, or finish to your specs.

Crossovers? they got 'em. and with premium components, like aircore inductors and Clarity caps and non-inductive resistors. Not cost-no-object, but certainly quite a cut above the junk as issued in the B&Os.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1320
Registered: Oct-07
https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=35_439&products_id=8697&o sCsid=700e1d30a594444a565ca1ef47e1bb75

For 235$ US on sale, this is quite a deal. add enclosure of your choice, and all the hardware stuff and for probably 400$ or so, a very nice pair.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 47
Registered: Jun-10
That is about the same price after currency conversion to AUSTRALIAN DOLLARS and I still have to factor in shipping cost International. Works out more expensive. The kit available here is $700 AUSTRALIAN including cabinets & they are a TWIN WOOFER 3 WAY arrangement.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14989
Registered: May-04
.

"Just a side note, the Monarch sounds better than the Marantz. JAN, no offense but boy am I'm glad I did not take your advice."


I never said anything about amplifiers. But, no, putting "JAN" in all caps (twice) says you're not trying to offend me.


"No head aches, no wasting of cash & definitely no crap sound, JAN. Re-furbishing these B&O speakers was a dandy idea. Advice was taken from "Claus" of Copenhagen Denmark & member of Beo world. www.beoworld.org"


I see you found someone else who agrees the Beovox cabinets are crap. Your original question was about driver upgrades, not cabinet upgrades. I still wouldn't have advised you to do anything to those cabinets, mainly because now you're still stuck with 35 year old B&O drivers - plastic cone tweeter with a little plastic dispersion guide, right? They used to sell a dozen for $5.

And the same problems I laid out in regards to swapping drivers into crap cabinets still applies to your modified cabinets.


" Whatever you do you are starting with a pig's ear of a speaker done up with a rosewood veneer."


I just hate it when car stereo guys come talk about home audio, they don't have a clue about what really happens over here. But, if you think slapping Dynamat all over the interior of the enclosure is an upgrade, then you're welcome to it. I seldom see someone tell me what they did or what they bought isn't the best thing since push/pull amplifiers were invented - at least not till they finally do listen to what they've created. If you "adore them", they're yours, not many people would try to take even a modified B&O S45 away from you.


.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 964
Registered: Jul-07
"Just try & achieve 130 DB plus with clarity & no listening fatigue, getting a snap of a twig that strikes the back of your neck & a thwack of a bass drum in your chest while hearing the creak of the bass pedal itself."

Let me get this straight. 130db without listener fatigue. Really ? I can honestly say that 130db would fatigue the he!! out of me, no matter how you accomplished it. At 130db my ears would be ringing for 8-10 hours after you turned off the music, and permanent hearing loss is a distinct possibility at those levels. I said, PERMANENT HEARING LOSS IS A DISTINCT POSSIBILITY AT THOSE LEVELS! Sorry, I wasn't sure you heard me the first time. And the creaking you hear may not be the "bass pedal itself". It could be your car coming apart. Just sayin'.

"I am fussy with sound."

Fussy how exactly ? What can you tell me about music at 130db that you're particular about ?

"The only advantage the Krix had over mine were vocals which which were warmer & richer."

You liked the bass and detail of your speaker, the midrange however, not so much. Personally I'd take a speaker that does midrange at 90db over one that does bass at 130db.....but hey, that's just me. To each his own.

Some people value hearing advice that differs from their own point of view. Some don't. Guess you're one of the latter.

Enjoy your speakers.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 48
Registered: Jun-10
Mate, Thats 130 db with balanced sound. Mid bass blended well with sub bass. I'm not suggesting those levels over the whole frequency range, mostly when the sub bass hits. E.G during dance tracks or rock. I liked the MID BASS from the Beovox, different band width altogether to mid range. The Krix had superior mid range but not worth the trade off. Try & achieve 130 DB with mid bass & sub bass very well blended. Do that in your house. Yes, constant listening to sub bass during a test tone would result in acute acoustic trauma if not permanent. Who listens to test tones all day? You don't get listening fatigue during music playing if you have pure unclipped power driving your individual speakers if your drivers blend well together with smooth correct crossover slopes. That is an achievement. You don't go deaf because the bass strikes at 130 db for less than a second. You don't go deaf working at an airport re-fueling jets either.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 49
Registered: Jun-10
Jan, the cabinets are not crap when they perform to MY LIKING, nor the drivers. I would have spent $$$ more to get that result. Isn't that the point? Everyone to their own liking. I'm not here to please anyone else. I wasn't emphasizing that you mentioned anything about amplifiers. That's your interpretation. I wasn't trying to offend you either, again your interpretation. But when you throw in a couple of these:. that's being offensive. I agree, I would not have purchased them new If I auditioned them. I'm sure they sounded crap in the show room. All I am suggesting is that I have discovered that for a few $ spent on them, they are quite nice & worth the mod. I purchased them second hand for next to nothing. I think you're the one getting P'd off. I don't need to change the drivers now. I'm quite pleased actually.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14991
Registered: May-04
.

And I addressed that possibility.
 

Gold Member
Username: Gavdawg

Albany, New York

Post Number: 1526
Registered: Nov-06
"You don't go deaf working at an airport re-fueling jets either."

I can debate this one... I know multiple people in the airline industry (and have elite stats with one), and have a cousin who has an almost perfect 40dB notch in his hearing at 3.5 khz. Jet engines DO have a specific frequency that they peak at. It is not just white noise.

but this is not airliners.net
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank12391

Sydney, N.S.W Australia

Post Number: 50
Registered: Jun-10
Hi Gavin, I work in a health setting. 2 days ago in fact, we had an educator from the Australian Hearing Association (Government organization who subsidizes hearing aids for the disadvantaged & the aged ) visit for an in-service. What she had to say shocked me. We only have so many little hairs in the cochlear that resonate & send those signals to the brain. Every time we are exposed to loud sounds, they decay & over a period of time, so does our hearing. Safe exposure to noise is 110 db for 15 mins daily! Every 3 db thereafter, exposure time should be halved or we seriously risk premature deafness. No exaggeration. That worries me a lot. I know that I have to ask to repeat what was said to me at least 10 times a day & I thought my ears would recover after a days rest from my stereo. I listen for about 30 min to & from work each day, 5 days at around 128 - 135 db. I pulled her ( the educator) aside after the lecture & told her what I do. She informed me that I should get my hearing checked (audiograph) regularly. She told me that prem hearing loss has risen very sharply (all ages) since the explosion of Ipods & MP3 players. I Have to seriously think about what I'm doing to my hearing. I realize this now. I learned a lot. But a member on another forum that I subscribe to had this to say:
The real damage to hearing occurs above 1500-2000Hz, at which your system would be lucky to do 100dB at the same perceived loudness of the 135dB bass.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 15170
Registered: Dec-04
Thankfully, you will now be able to hear your kids voices, EC.
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