Audiolab vs. Exposure showdown (plus a whole bunch of speakers too)
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 652 Registered: Dec-06 | Hope all is well everyone. Over the next few days I'll be doing some in home comparisons. Got a brand new Audiolab 8000S to compare to my existing Exposure 2010s2. I have also borrowed a couple of speakers - the PMC TB2i once again, and the Monitor Audio RX2 (what a looker this one is), to compare against my current Quad 12L2. I think I'll try all speakers with the 2010s2 system, and then switch over to the 8000S and do the same, after letting the 8000S run in as recommended in the manual, taking notes along the way. In a few days I will listen to a pair of Dynaudio X16 and also the ProAc Studio 110 (in store, not in home, but at least with the same electronics). No commitments, I just want to see which system I like best, which matches will have the most synergy, and how much of a difference it'll be over what I've got now. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 3060 Registered: Jun-07 | Right on Dan. Sounds fun! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12760 Registered: Feb-05 | I used to own those ProAc's. That series was voiced on Audio Research tube amps. It's a very good speaker with the right electronics and will take your head off when mismatched. Haven't listened to the Dyn Xcites...should be fun. Look forward to your impressions. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 653 Registered: Dec-06 | I read some of those old posts about the ProAc's, Art. I think Nuck may have tried them too, if I recall. It's a very intriguing speaker. Of course 33Hz is what sticks out to me. I'd love to know how ProAc was able to achieve this, assuming the spec is somewhat accurate. It's the only front ported speaker on my list, and in my room I think that may be an advantage. My rear ported Quads sound pretty great in the bass department most of the time, but occasionally bass sounds a little boomy. I bet those are the times when the port is doing it's thing. My latest impressions on my current setup: I've actually become a lot more satisfied with my system over the past month or so. Maybe I've gotten used to the sound, or perhaps my Quad 12L2 has reached a certain level of break in. That sense of scale that I complained was lacking isn't so much anymore. It could still be better though, I think. The 12L2/Exposure system does a lot right. The Quads are capable of some serious low end and dynamics given their modest size. The tweeter/woofer integration is spot on. Treble isn't harsh, bass isn't flabby, and overall the sound is smooth. Imaging is good, though not as halographic and large as I've heard. The speaker feels quick and capable of playing many genres of music well. I listen and think, this sounds nice. No obvious, glaring problems. But, music lacks excitement. It all sounds a little too safe. Also, vocals and midrange instruments are too far down in the mix, at least for my liking. Music seems distant other than lower end bass and highs. It feels as if it's got a smile shaped frequency response, with a recessed midrange. The Quads sound like they've got a lot of quickness, but when I think back I would say the Monitor Audio RS5 and Tannoy F2 had more. Those speakers had a more exciting sound, and definitely more presence. It felt more like you were there, or that the singer was there, right in front of you. That's what I'm looking for now - a bit more presence and excitement. I think all the speakers I'm considering will better the Quads in this respect, and will also provide a greater sense of scale, though from what I've read Dynaudio also tends to be a bit sterile to some ears. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14909 Registered: May-04 | . " I bet those are the times when the port is doing it's thing." The port is always doing "its thing". It's impossible for it not to do "its thing". . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15058 Registered: Dec-04 | The port may cause some resonant frequency excitation in the room at times, Dan, if that's what you are getting at. As the power goes up, the sound waves will make more distance travelled as audible, to the point where a rear, or reflecting wall will bring the wave back to your seat. And ears. And that china cabinet of ceramic figurines an a glass shelf... |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 655 Registered: Dec-06 | The speakers are about 2 1/2 feet in front of the rear wall. I figured that would be enough room, but I'm not sure. It's not just that there's a wall there though, If you make a direct line from the back of the speaker (lets consider the left speaker only) you will hit the wall, but just beside that is a corner. Now, we draw the line again and hit the wall, but this time go the other direction. We will hit another corner that is created because of the credenza. So it's like the rear port is firing into a big box that has only one opening, and that's forward. This goes for both speakers. So I don't think they are too close to any walls, but they might be firing back into a less than ideal area. The waves probably cannot disperse and come back to the listening area. I'll throw up a pic if need be (it's in the old pics thread I'm sure). Most times I don't notice any negative effect, but every once in a while I'll get bass that just seems a bit too boomy. I don't think it's enough to preclude me from getting a rear ported speaker, but it's probably a good idea to test something like the RX2, which probably has more bass energy than most monitors on the market. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15062 Registered: Dec-04 | Some recordings, or specific tones can do that in all but the best rooms. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 926 Registered: Jul-07 | Throw some bass traps in the corners and see if that improves. You might end up with both more, and better bass. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 656 Registered: Dec-06 | Some impressions thus far... First I tried each speaker with my Exposure gear: PMC TB2i I guess until you compare your own speakers to a superior one, the deficiencies aren't obvious. Now they are. I can clearly say that the PMC's are better than the Quads. - Greater detail and clarity was the first thing that jumped out at me. Not that the Quads aren't bringing that same level of detail, but the PMC organizes it so well. It resolves much better than the Quads do, which are prone to jumbling complex musical passages. The PMC never seems to do this. Every single line of music can be followed easily. - The PMC sounds much more open, while the 12L2 suffers from some boxiness. - The Quads give off the feeling of deeper bass, but I think it's kind of an illusion. The PMC's bass is less boomy. The boominess gives the 12L2 the feeling of deeper bass, but then I get to a point in a song that calls for deep bass and the PMC just brings it. I'm not saying the Quads are boomy speakers compared to other similar speakers, but the PMC just excels in clear and tuneful bass. Monitor Audio RX2 This one was a surprise. It sounded closer to the TB2i than I thought it would. - Detail, clarity, resolution is excellent. Not as good as the PMC, but closer to it than the Quads. - The highs aren't as harsh as the old RS series. They aren't as sweet as the Quad or PMC tweeters, but they aren't far off either. PMC does the highs the best. They sound more extended than the Quad but never become too much. None of these tweeters do. I could easily live with the highs in the RX series, unlike the RS series tweeter which was way too loud. - I guess there is no substitute for displacement. The RX2 sounds huge. It's the kind of sound I was looking for. It just breathes into the room. Unfortunately my fear was realized - it's too much for my room. Bass can overwhelm, and the room feels too pressurized, as if I'm more feeling sound waves and less hearing music. In a larger room with space to put the speakers out in the open, these would be great I think. If I plug the ports it fixes the issue but also makes the speaker feel too small and takes away the magic. Too bad. For a while there, as I played the first few songs through them, I thought this was the speaker I'd choose. Then I quickly realized it was not to be. Then I tried the Audiolab with the Quads and PMC. What I was hoping has indeed come to pass. I'm getting a more full bodied sound. Depth of the image has increased substantially. Music feels less distant, and vocals are right in front of me now rather than further back. One thing I wasn't expecting is that the highs have been tamed (not that they were ever a real issue). On the very highest tones the Quads could start to exhibit a little harshness, but that is just gone now. Overall it's a very neutral amp that exhibits a lot of control, but also delicacy during those softer moments. And it's also built like a tank. It may look small but this thing is heavy, all the knobs offer the right amount of resistance to feel like they aren't part of some cheap budget amp, and the fit and finish is flawless. I wish it didn't run quite as warm as it does, but I guess that'll be a plus in the winter. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 927 Registered: Jul-07 | Tony Minasian used to use an Audiolab 8000a amp to demo his speakers (Tonian Labs), which by all accounts are fantastic. He clearly had a very high opinion of that amp if he used it to show off his gear. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12772 Registered: Feb-05 | My Sonneteer runs hot. There is even a warning in the owners manual about it. Sounds great though. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 657 Registered: Dec-06 | I know the old Audiolab is held in high regard. The new, despite being very similar in design, seems to take it's share of criticism. But of course, a lot of folks enjoy the new model. I'd say that the Exposure beats the Audiolab when it comes to PRaT. It just sounds quicker. But, the Exposure has a lot more hours on it, and for it I used the matching 2010s2 player, while with the Audiolab I used my Cambridge Audio BD650. Long term I'm leaning to an Apollo with the 8000S. I'm willing to trade off that sense of quickness for what the 8000S gives me. I'm considering just focusing on the PMC and the ProAc for now, and forgetting about Dynaudio. I suppose it wouldn't hurt to listen, but I'm starting to think a rear ported speaker in this room just isn't ideal. And the Dyns will probably pump out more bass than most similar speakers (and definitely more than my Quads). I'm sure they would sound great, but will an in store demo tell me what I need to know? I'll probably check out the ProAc and if they don't do it for me then I might consider the X16 once again. I know I can throw up bass traps, but it would probably make sense if I can avoid spending money there too. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3842 Registered: May-05 | My B60 runs pretty hot too. It's due to the pure class A preamp section. With any component the gives off a lot of heat - as long as it's well ventilated, it shouldn't be a concern. Some manufacturers (Bryston included) give recommendations as to how much free space to have on all sides. What I think your experiment is really telling you is each piece of the chain has a significant influence on the final sound. It's also telling you there's no perfect component - each has it's own strengths and weaknesses. The trick is to find the components that compromise the least on what you think is most important in exchange for giving up a little more in areas that aren't a big deal for you. By reading what you've wrote, I think Audio Physic speakers would be something you'd really enjoy. Unfortunately they're very easy to track down |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3843 Registered: May-05 | Sorry - They're NOT very easy to track down. It's hard to edit posts on my iPhone. The main designer from Audio Physic left a few years ago and started a new company - Sonics by Joachim G something or other. There's a small bookshelf speaker that looks a lot my Yaras and got some great press. The review or two I read sounded like they sound identical to mine. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 658 Registered: Dec-06 | Hey Stu...the 8000S has a class A preamp section too. I sort of worry about running it too hard during the summer when it gets really warm inside. Who knows, I may listen to some Audio Physic speakers. The Dyn dealer here carries the line and has some demo models for sale now. The only concern again is the rear port. Normally I wouldn't be so hung up on this, but with a little boominess in my 12L2, and the RX2, that stuff happens at the frequencies the port is putting out. The PMC did not exhibit this quality, of course it's also not a rear ported speaker. Will listen to the ProAc's tomorrow and hopefully they impress and render all this contemplation moot. The dealer that lent me the RX2 suggested the Paradigm Studio 20 as an alternative. To be honest it was the next speaker that I would have listened to, but I dismissed it after checking out Stereophile's measurements. The impedance dips below 4 ohms in the bass region, and they suggest an amp that has some guts. I think the 8000S has plenty of guts but still, it's not like I'm running Bryston separates here. Unless version 5 is a little easier to drive then I'm not sure I'll consider the 20's very seriously. Edit: I've pull up a pic of the Yara bookshelf and perhaps they don't have a port after all. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12773 Registered: Feb-05 | You don't need Bryston separates for Studio 20's. Most good quality integrated amps will do the trick. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 3063 Registered: Jun-07 | I agree Art. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3844 Registered: May-05 | I agree too. The Studio 20s aren't easy, but they're not that demanding either. If Rotel integrateds drive them adequately, what you're running won't have problems. My Yaras are rear ported. I'm pretty sure the current ones are too. 2.5 feet away from the back wall should be more than enough. My current room is a finished attic with sloped ceiling, but they did pretty well in my living room with about 1.5 feet behind them. I wouldn't go less than a foot. Proximity to side walls also comes into play when adjusting distance from the back wall. No two rooms are really alike. Don't be scarred of any speaker just because of it's port placement. I've heard them in a demo room with a few inches behind them - wasn't very good bass wise. They respond very well to correct room placement, but they're not a hard speaker to place. A lot of placement options made big differences, but none (except being a few inches from the back wall) make them sound bad. I've never had a speaker that acted this way to this extent. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3845 Registered: May-05 | You realize that the PMC DB1i are rear ported, don't you? The port is the black rectangle in the picture. Its covered by black grill cloth material. May not be easy to identify on a black pair of speakers...  |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3846 Registered: May-05 | Sorry, posted twice somehow |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 661 Registered: Dec-06 | Right, that's their transmission line design. Perhaps it technically it is a port, but it doesn't behave like a typical port behaves. The amount of sound pumping out of the RX2's port was substantial. I didn't really check out the port of the TB2i while it was playing but there is no way it sounded anything like the RX2's. The material in the port of the TB2i seems to be the same material that MA used for their port plugs (felt like it at least), so perhaps it has that same effect. But I don't believe removing the PMC's plug is really an option. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 932 Registered: Jul-07 | I'm not sure your problem is port location. It may simply be speaker placement. You should seriously think about bass traps in the corners as well, if you haven't already tried that. Trying to solve room acoustics with speaker changes can be a frustrating exercise. If your room acoustics aren't tuned to some degree, you can spend a boat load of cash and still not be satisfied with what you're listening to. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 662 Registered: Dec-06 | With the 12L2 it really isn't much of an issue, just the occasional bass that seems a little boomy. With the RX2 it was a constant thing. I don't recall ever hearing bass like this with my old front porters, which is why I've been focusing so much on the port. If a speaker needs bass traps behind it, doesn't the fact that it's rear ported only exacerbate the problem? Speaker placement is definitely an issue in this room though. Unless I get rid of the big desk with the PC, or even the credenza that holds my gear and replace it with a proper rack, this won't change. However, I have moved things around again. Kind of back to the old location, with the speakers firing across the longer length of the room. The room is a lot less awkward that way. First listen wasn't good. Now that I have stands though I can make some adjustments. I then positioned the speakers so they are a bit further out into the room, and as far from the wall as I can get them. On a quick second listen there was much improvement. Ultimately I think I will look into bass traps and some first reflection absorption. Will still replace the Quads though I'm sure. I've also got my Exposure gear to trade in, and a sub. With all this I think I can go to an Apollo and better speakers than the Quads. I think the PMC's really highlighted the weaknesses of the 12L2. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3848 Registered: May-05 | Another thing to look at is how much you toe in your speakers. Not every speaker sounds good with it, and the overall sound changes with varying degrees of it. Every speaker and room is different. Don't toe in all speakers the same amount. My Yaras are very sensitive to it. With no toe in - backs parallel to the wall, the soundstage is widest, but the sound is a bit more dispersed and slightly vieled. Toeing in all the way - where I look directly at the drivers and can't see the sides of the cabinets, the soundstage collapses somewhat into a jumbled mess in the middle. The sound get very detailed, but also pretty bright. They sound like different speakers when at the extremes. I found the best amount is either no toe in or about a quarter of the way toed in (I don't use a protractor to measure the angle) depending on the recording. Yeah, I cange the toe depending on what I'm listening to, but not that often. I don't dwell on it, but sometimes my OCD gets the better of me. Its not a huge difference, but sometimes its enough to make me really appreciate it. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 664 Registered: Dec-06 | I think if a speaker is next to a wall then toeing it in will alleviate some of the reflections. That's the situation with mine right now, as one of the speakers is close to the wall. But I've always found that the Quads benefit from a decent amount of toe in, which really helps improve clarity and imaging. I've tried firing them straight before, and with very little toe in, and like with your Yaras the sound becomes veiled and loses focus. With the right speaker so close to a wall now, however, I think it would be even worse if I didn't toe them in. The ProAc audition is delayed until the dealer can get the tweeters replaced (he says another customer blew them out while he had them!). I've had a couple of discussions with the owner of this store, he's been great so far, taking the time to discuss the various components in my system and what he thinks. I told him I was probably going to buy an Audiolab, and he warned me of the fact their distributor dropped them and just wanted to ensure I bought from a reputable dealer in case I had any service issues, rather than from someone online who may have just been selling off some of the distributor's existing stock. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 933 Registered: Jul-07 | "If a speaker needs bass traps behind it, doesn't the fact that it's rear ported only exacerbate the problem?" You're really treating the room with bass traps, not the speaker. Yes, positioning of the speaker and the listener changes (for better or worse) the interactions of the soundwaves in the room, but ultimately if you need to tone down the bass because any quantity of it sounds "boomy", you need to treat the room. Why match the deficiencies of the room to a speaker that least exacerbates them ? I agree you'd want to select components that sound good in your room, not the showroom at the dealers, but I just think you're likely to misjudge a speaker if the room is too flawed. Anyway, just a caution. I know how difficult it is to decide what the right thing to do is, and what fits you best. Have fun with it, and I hope you find something that really brings the music to life for you. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 665 Registered: Dec-06 | I appreciate that Chris. I think I'm getting closer to the kind of sound that I want. I'll try to figure out which speaker of those on my list gels best with my electronics, and then focus on room treatments and perhaps vibration control, if need be. Here's how things are arranged now:.   |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3849 Registered: May-05 | It's hard to tell what exactly you can do by a few pictures, or even a ton of pics. And I'm not a room acoustics expert or an interior decorator. But... You'd most likely get better results from having the speakers on the long wall instead of the short wall. The trade offs would be that you can't get the speakers as far out from the wall, and your seat might be up against the back wall. That part is relatively easily remedied, the distance behind the speakers isn't. If you've got the option to try the long wall without tearing the room apart, give it a go. You never know what'll happen. I think a lot of this stuff comes down to trial and error. There's also a method of placement called the Master Set. It's used by Sumiko (Sonus Faber and Vienna's US distributor) when they set up demos at shows like CES and RMAF. May be worth trying out. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 667 Registered: Dec-06 | I had the speakers up against the long wall for a while now. Here's a pic from the pics thread - https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/637100.jpg. I just moved the speakers back to the short wall yesterday because there's simply more room that way, and the credenza fits better tucked in the corner under the window. But if I find the sound quality isn't as good I'll go back to putting the system against the long wall. I always thought things sounded pretty good against the short wall, despite the corner and window. You may remember the speakers used to sit on the credenza, and were much closer to the window and corner than they are now. I definitely need a bigger room for the system whenever I move next. I'll look into the Master Set. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 668 Registered: Dec-06 | Imaging has improved substantially in this new location. I'm not sure if that might have to do with the fact that the speakers are further out into the room and not as close to the credenza as before. Do physical objects impact the image? I was listening to the Chesky Evaluation Disc yesterday and it sounded great. I could place sounds like never before. Other music sounds great and doesn't sound great. But I think it's partly a function of the disc, and partly the speaker. For example, Knockin' on Heaven's Door off Use Your Illusion II sounded awesome. For people who know the song, there's one part where a phone rings and someone picks up and starts talking. It felt like he was right beside me! Overall everything was nice and clear. More complex stuff from that album was a little messy though. I think this is due to the 12L2, which I realized before has a tendency to do this. The boomy bass has all but disappeared. Again, probably a function of the speakers being a little further out into the room, although this is a bit confused by the fact that the right speaker is ultimately closer to the side wall than before. I'm still wary of the port issue. I realize there is a room issue that would benefit from bass traps, but I've been reading some opinions of front vs. rear ported speakers. They both have their pros and cons. The cons of a front ported speaker (chuffing, higher frequencies coming out) can be dealt with by speaker design, while a rear ported speaker somewhat hides these if they are not dealt with in the design, but the con now is limited placement options. Too far away from a wall and you may not get that bass reinforcement (though bass is supposedly omnidirectional, I'm not sure how unless it can radiate out the port and then back through the speaker and at the listener), too close and bass sounds boomy. So to place a rear ported speaker ideally you need to have some flexibility in terms of the room, which unfortunately I don't have right now. It doesn't make it un-doable, but it makes it tougher. I won't eliminate rear ported speakers from consideration, especially since I feel that Dynaudio would be ideal for my musical taste. In fact, I might go listen to them in the next day or two. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 934 Registered: Jul-07 | Just a thought. What I ended up doing was bass trapping the corners, which then allowed me to integrate a subwoofer, and pull the speakers out into the room. If I remember correctly Dan you weren't having a lot of luck with the subwoofer integration, and I'm wondering whether the bass traps would allow that to work better for you. Just for an experiment, if you have sleeping bags, place 1 in each corner. Experiment with 2 in each corner. If you don't have sleeping bags, take a heavy blanket or quilt and tightly roll it up and tie it and pop them in place. See what happens. Just a guess, but what you may find is that you get more bass, and tighter/faster bass. The other thing I'd note is that the desk your components are resting on appears to be right against the wall. Bass energy tends to be increased against the wall, which will put an awful lot of energy into your desk....and subsequently into your gear. What might be happening is that when bass energy gets stronger (speakers closer to wall) the more bass you get, the more internal vibration you're generating in your gear, which in turn further detiorates the sound quality. It may not be just your speakers causing the instruments to sound congested during complex passages.....it may be a result of the energy you're driving into your components. In your new room arrangement, can you temporarily move the desk out from the wall ? What do you have as isolation devices under your components ? |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 670 Registered: Dec-06 | That's a good point about the desk, Chris. I have no isolation devices now, but I was looking at one today (I went to hear the Dynaudios). It wasn't cheap (about $250 per component), but looks like a great device. It's the Rollerblock Jr. by Symposium. They are pretty cool. Just stick them under each component and it feels as if it's floating on air. There are a lot of cheaper alternatives, which I'll also consider, but I'm keeping this one in mind. http://www.symposiumusa.com/rbjr.html Not to belabor the point, but wouldn't front ported speakers alleviate the concern with the desk as well? I don't want to become too focused on port location, because it doesn't make sense to buy a speaker based solely on that, but if it's close between two or three speakers, and one is front ported, then it may make sense to have that break the tie. Otherwise, buying a rear ported design may mean having to invest in room treatments I might otherwise get by without. I've got some blankets lying around. I'll give your suggestion a shot, though in the current location the 12L2's bass doesn't seem to be an issue. This would have been an interesting experiment while I had the RX2's. But as you say, maybe this will aid in creating a more clear sound overall. As for the Dynaudios, they are no doubt better suited to rock music. Deep but clean bass that reminded me a lot of the PMC's, and a nice sense of scale. Detail was I think slightly better than the 12L2, but it's hard to say for sure with such a short comparison. The 12L2 was a bit less veiled, and the highs sounded more extended. The X16 made music that flowed really well. The emotion came through. It's definitely on my short list. But frankly I find myself hoping the ProAc blows me away. It would definitely make this easier. Front ported, and the perfect price to make an easy trade happen for it and the Rega Apollo. This dealer also had Audio Physic, which I know Stu likes. Saw the Yara II Compact. Man are they tiny. I was considering listening to a pair of AP speakers, but thought they had the larger bookshelf. I did briefly hear a mega buck AP tower speaker though. It sounded gorgeous, powered by some no doubt similarly mega buck Simaudio components. Smooth as silk. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3850 Registered: May-05 | How small were they? Mine are about 1.5 times bigger than the DB1+. (that's what she said). The DB1+ could probably fit into a shoe box. Not sure about the DB1i. APs pull off an odd way of being detailed and fast, yet staying smooth. Their whole line (that I've heard) are fantastic. They're all very similar, with the more expensive ones giving you more of that magic IMO. I haven't heard Sim with them, but the newer Sim gear sound pretty close to Bryston, so I'd imagine thatit would be a great match. Sucks that AP changed the Yara bookshelf. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 671 Registered: Dec-06 | These were some of the smallest speakers I'd ever seen. Probably close in size to the DB1i, but I think the Yara is smaller. These are the mega buck ones they had on the floor: http://www.audiophysic.de/cardeas/index_e.html Only $36,000. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 938 Registered: Jul-07 | I don't think I'd get too hung up on front vs rear port. Find the speaker that you like the best, and try to optimize your room to get the most out of it. Regardless of port location, bass energy will still be more significant along the walls, and in other locations in the room dependant on room size, wave length (frequency), and speaker location/orientation. Moving the desk away from the wall and isolating the components will be a big benefit regardless of port location. Having rear ported speakers closer to the front wall just allows for room reinforcement of the bass. Less of an option for front ports, where the speaker doesn't get any help. If you read different approaches to speaker placement, not many of them suggest the optimal placement is close to the front wall. Mine are about 2 ft out, which gives me excellent depth to the soundstage, and wonderful instrument separation. I use the sub to fill in the bottom end, rather than proximity to the front wall. I couldn't integrate a sub properly without the room treatments. It always went from not enough, to too much. Now, you'd never know the sub was in the room. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 673 Registered: Dec-06 | My speakers are now 3ft from the front wall, which is perhaps why I'm finding boomy bass less of an issue now. This is complicated a bit by the fact that the wall behind the right speaker has, at about 1.5ft, a little piece that juts out from the side wall. You can see this in the pic...it probably doesn't make a huge impact, but I'm not sure. It's also complicated by the desk, which I'm sure takes some of the bass energy, especially along the right side where it's closer to the side wall. It's tough to really move the desk out much. I'll focus on isolation and putting some blankets in each corner and see what that does. It's very logical what you are saying, about needing some bass traps if using a sub. I'm really quite content without a sub though, as I'm finding that most 6.5" bookshelf speakers that I've tried are sufficient in terms of bass (maybe I need bare walls to accomplish this though?). Once I get the blankets in each corner I'm sure I'll give the sub another shot. I was a little worried about the Dyn's rear port, it puts out way more bass than my Quads, but I really did enjoy that speaker. So I'll get it if it's the best option for me, and then treat the room if the bass is too much. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 698 Registered: Dec-06 | Ha-ha, this hobby is going to drive me insane, and that is probably not too far away. Listened to the system last night. I was disappointed. It didn't sound as good as I remembered. I'm thinking I may actually prefer the sound of my Exposure equipment. It's a good thing I didn't get rid of it yet, since now I've got the chance to determine whether this is in fact the case. As I mentioned before, I was enjoying it a lot more the last month or so it was in my rig, so maybe that is worth something after all. I was really hung up on ideas like damping factor and peak power that the Audiolab would appear to have over Exposure. But now I read of the negative effects of damping and negative feedback, and I wonder if that's in part what I heard yesterday. Not that Exposure doesn't use these ideas, but they don't to the same degree. Those drum beats feel huge with the 8000S, and while enjoyable at first I now think they might be too emphasized. The sound wasn't as transparent as I remember the 2010s2 being, and drums sounded big with the 2010s2 when the song called for it. In short, I think it sounded more "right". Hopefully the next few weeks will confirm this. I should hopefully get to try out the ProAc and Paradigm speakers soon too, but first I'm going to figure out the amp thing. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 955 Registered: Jul-07 | Keep thinking "systems" Dan. It isn't just the amp, it's what it's connected to as well. If you've got different components to swap in with each amp do it, and see if you can find something that works well. What you heard the other night could be the combination you put together, not the amp itself. Also, don't make a decision based on one listening session. Ears are funny things. |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgamePickering, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1171 Registered: Jun-08 | Dan, I think you just hit the nail on the head in describing the Audiolab sound in my experience. I find it warm and full and overall quite smooth but no excitement. I believe they miss something in the upper midrange and upper treble which make them feel a little lifeless. I did not like what they did to the RS6's when I heard it paired with them. It took them from being an exciting speaker to a bit of an easy listening speaker. Some would like that - I personally don't. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 956 Registered: Jul-07 | As long as the "excitement" doesn't turn into "fatigue".....which in my experience happens to many "exciting" components. If there is excitement in the music, your stereo should bring it out. If there isn't, it shouldn't attempt to create it. I know that's not what you were implying George, it's just a cautionary note. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15129 Registered: Dec-04 | Bang and sizzle sells on Saturday afternoons. Hi-fi sells on Wednesdays. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 700 Registered: Dec-06 | The Audiolab is definitely warmer and fuller than the 2010s2, with what feels like a bit of treble roll off, but I'm not sure if my issue with it really is a lack of excitement. The big drums are kind of exciting, but this last session they just sounded overblown. I think my main problem with it was what sounded like grain...just a real lack of transparency, and in organizing all the instruments so that it made musical sense. It was kinda jumbled. I don't think I ever felt that while listening to the Exposure equipment. For sure Chris. I'm not going to toss the 8000S out just yet. I plan to use it with my Quads for a few weeks. Then I should be able to try out the ProAc and Paradigm speakers. The Audiolab and Exposure will get time with all of these. Luckily I bought the 8000S for a steal...which made it worthwhile just to try out. Brand new, half price, from a local dealer who was bought out by his partner and part of the deal was that he got to keep some of their stock. They are both solid guys (these were the guys that let me try the PMC last year and always provided great service). I should get my Apollo back next weekend. See the CD forum if you missed it...I bought a demo model of the 35th Anniversary Apollo. Couldn't resist it at about $400 off retail, there's not too many left anymore. It was meant to be paired with the Audiolab after I sold off my Exposure stuff. It failed the first day!! Right now I am leaning to using it with the 2010s2 amp and parting ways with the 2010s2 CD player, but I'm not positive on that. A matching player is nice (one who's reliability I can count on), but a 35th Anniversary Apollo ain't just any old CD player. I'll be glad once this is all over - I feel like I've been doing this way too long! |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 710 Registered: Dec-06 | Last night I did a comparison of CD players. As touched upon in the Rega Apollo thread in the CD section, the Apollo greatly improved the sound coming from the Audiolab 8000S and Quad 12L2. Much better clarity and transparency, and overall smoothness. With the CA 650BD sounds were kind of smeared together, and the richness brought by the Apollo was not present. I was surprised at the contrast between the two players, and until I added the Apollo I was blaming the poor sound on the 8000S. I don't recall the CA sounding this bad with my Exposure amp, but I can't be sure unless I try it again. Last night I compared the Apollo to the 2010s2 CD player. I would say they are both of comparable quality but the presentations were different. The 2010s2 had greater emphasis on bass and just seemed to rock harder. It had a loose, swinging sound, overall more drive than the Apollo. The sound was more forward (closer to the listener). The Apollo was more balanced, laid back, and refined, but to me it's biggest virtue was the detail it wrung out of each song. As an example, I could clearly hear every little strum of the guitar underneath the more prominent distorted electric guitar, drums and vocals on a few rock tracks. With the 2010s2 I had to listen closer to pick up on these details, and sometimes they were tough to make out...they simply were not brought to the fore the way they were with the Apollo. One thing to note is that there is only about 5 hours on the Apollo so far. It was orginally a dealer demo but the dealer said they barely played it. I guess it's a matter of preference then. Personally I like the added detail and separation. Everything going on is part of the song, and hearing it with ease only enhances the experience. I wouldn't mind getting that and some of what the Exposure brought...maybe with the right amp and speakers that will happen. The next comparison will be the 8000S vs. the 2010s2 integrated amp this coming weekend, then hopefully the ProAc 110 and Paradigm Studio 20 the next. I'll say this though - with the right electronics ahead of them, the Quad 12L2 do a bang up job. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 767 Registered: Dec-06 | APs pull off an odd way of being detailed and fast, yet staying smooth. Their whole line (that I've heard) are fantastic. They're all very similar, with the more expensive ones giving you more of that magic IMO. I haven't heard Sim with them, but the newer Sim gear sound pretty close to Bryston, so I'd imagine thatit would be a great match. Stu, I'm going to check out a few speakers this week, including some Audio Physics. I'm very eager to finally hear a pair as from your descriptions of the AP sound I think I'm going to really dig them. I've kind of shifted my focus now to floorstanders, in an effort to get bigger scale and more body. When I think back to the MA RS5 that I had for a while last year, the only thing I didn't like was that treble. I really enjoyed the scale, dynamics, and body it produced. I'm also going to take that credenza out of the picture somewhat, as Chris suggested, as I'll finally be purchasing an equipment rack to hold my amp, CD player, and turntable. I'm getting a Target CL-430. A pretty nice looking rack for the money. Just a thought. What I ended up doing was bass trapping the corners, which then allowed me to integrate a subwoofer, and pull the speakers out into the room. If I remember correctly Dan you weren't having a lot of luck with the subwoofer integration, and I'm wondering whether the bass traps would allow that to work better for you. Just for an experiment, if you have sleeping bags, place 1 in each corner. Experiment with 2 in each corner. If you don't have sleeping bags, take a heavy blanket or quilt and tightly roll it up and tie it and pop them in place. See what happens. Just a guess, but what you may find is that you get more bass, and tighter/faster bass. Hey Chris, I'm going to try this out in the next day or two. As you can see from the pictures above, the only place I can put the sub is either in the corner or in between the speakers. I'll be going with the latter option to minimize interactions in the tight confines of that corner, and I'll try putting blankets and towels in the corners to see if they help with the integration. The sub can actually fire downwards or forwards. I'd figure forwards is another way to minimize contact with the rear wall and furniture. Ultimately I'm probably going with floorstanders and won't require a sub but I'll give this a shot before I get different speakers. Of course, many people use floorstanders and a sub, so I guess this is a possibility as well. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 769 Registered: Dec-06 | Stu, I've got a question about your Audio Physic Yaras. Are they difficult at all to drive? This is the only thing that concerns me about them. AP quotes all their speakers at 4 ohm impedance. When I view measurements at Stereophile for all AP speakers they've reviewed the impedance charts bear this out - not super tough to drive but you need an amp stable into 4 ohms. And this seems to be a pretty consistent theme with AP speakers. But of course, they've never measured a speaker in the Yara series, so one is only left to guess. I did briefly listen to two speakers today. The store is focused pretty heavily on home theatre, but they've also got some really high end audio components. For amps you are looking at Mark Levinson, Macintosh, PrimaLuna, and then on the more affordable end Cambridge, Marantz, and Yamaha. Anyways, I heard a pair of Canton (I think the model was 507) powered by a CA receiver and the BD650. Didn't like it really, hard to tell if it was the speakers or the other gear, but it was a little harsh and bright. I also heard the Tannoy Revolution DC6T, powered by a Marantz universal player and a PrimaLuna tube amp. They sounded great! Warm, full, smooth, but still nicely detailed. I'm sure it was partly the amp, but I've never heard a pair of Tannoys that I've hated yet. Unfortunately I only listened for about a minute or two to each, and not even one full song per speaker. But I think it's enough to know that I like the DC6T and not so much the Cantons. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3973 Registered: May-05 | APs are pretty easy to drive. They're a 4 ohm speaker, but they don't dip down much lower than that. Phase angle and a few other specs that I know little about are pretty amplifier friendly too. From what I hear, running APs with tubes is pretty popular. If your amp doesn't like 4 ohm loads, that's a different story. Most amps that you've been around/contemplated don't have any problems with 4 ohms. My B60's manual says not to use it with speakers below 4 ohms. Never had a problem with the Yaras. It runs at the same temperature (without using a thermometer) as any other speaker I've used. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 770 Registered: Dec-06 | From the Stereophile graphs they tend to have areas in the bass region that either dip below 4 ohms (slightly) or dip below 6 ohms with a challenging phase. The Scorpio looks most like the Yara (at least in terms of drivers and cabinet shape). http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/506ap/index4.html It dips to 3.6 ohms at 93Hz and 5.2 ohms with a -41 phase angle at 78Hz. Though the lines don't look as crazy as others I've seen, in that from 100Hz up they are pretty flat. A subwoofer might really help an amp out with this speaker, since they are most challenging from 100Hz and down. I think the amps I either have or am considering can cope, but it's a bit of a concern as they are still relatively modest integrateds. Of course, the Scorpio isnt the Yara. The Yara could be much easier to drive than the Scorpio. Tough to make a call! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3975 Registered: May-05 | The Scorpio has 4 drivers vs. the 1 in my Yaras. I'm pretty sure they use the same 7" driver and tweeter If im not mistaken, AP makes their own drivers and tweeters. If not, they design them and have them made for them. The 4 drivers vs 1 driver complicates things a bit, especially in the cross over. The Scorpio used two 6" mids and two 7" lows. I guess saying that APs ate easy to drive and tube friendly was too much of a blanket statement. Their 2 way speakers would have been more appropriate. If you're looking at the Scoprios or Virgos, I think they may be a bit too much speaker for your level of amp and source. Not that they'll sound bad at all, but those speakers ate capable of much more than they'll be fed. Keep in mind that those are/were $5k ish speakers. If you can get them for the right price, snatch 'em up! If not, don't lose much sleep over it. AP's house sound is pretty consistent in the speakers I've heard. They're not impossible to drive, nor are they too difficult IMO. If they're matched up with comparable components (quality wise) they won't present too many problems. If you can't find the Yara monitors I have, maybe the Yara Evolution towers are still around/available? They retailed for about $2k. They went a little lower bass wise, but were pretty indistinguishable sonically to my ears. Still can't figure out why they went with the current Yara Compact. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3976 Registered: May-05 | If you're looking into towers, check out Totems. The Arro is one of my favorite speakers, regardless of price. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 771 Registered: Dec-06 | Hey Stu, thanks for your thoughts. The speakers Stereophile has reviewed tend to have that third bass driver, so that might cause some issues that the Yara isn't faced with. Actually the Yara Evolution tower is the model I'm looking at. They are a demo pair and are going for about $1,400. Great deal, except I've got a bunch of stuff to trade in and this dealer will only accept my gear on a consignment basis. So I'd have to buy the speakers and be out $1,400 now, while I try to recoup that money through selling my current gear. Another dealer has the Tannoy Revolution DC6T for about $2K and will take my gear up front. He pays pretty close to fair value, of course allowing for himself a small profit. Selling used gear seems to be a big part of what he does. I'm also going to one other place to check out ProAc, Rega, Neat, and Kudos speakers. I'll just listen to what he has and see how I like them. This dealer really is amazing...he pretty much insisted when I spoke to him that i do an in-home trial because how else can you know if you can live with a speaker? The next time I spoke to him I asked him about Neat...he said he carries Neat and can order the Motive 2 for me, but that I should shop around a bit because prices on Neat speakers might be low right now. Neat just dumped their North American distributor. Wow! I wasn't expecting advice like that!! Anyhow, I'm leaning to the Tannoys given how much I like the speakers and the ease of doing a trade. But I'm not rushing into it. I can probably squeeze Totem into my listening as well. |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 695 Registered: Jul-07 | There is a used pair of Arros here: http://www.hawthornestereo.com/used/ |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 774 Registered: Dec-06 | I'll probably listen to some Totems today. I think I'd like a larger driver than what's on the Arro though...so I will hope to hear the Sttaf. But I'll check out the Arro too. The one thing that has me concerned about Totem, it's soemthing that somebody told me and it's not a Totem thing because a lot of small floorstanders are like this. But the warning was that in speakers with small cabinets and drivers that claim deep bass, they often trade off sensitivity to achieve that. So to get higher SPLs you need to feed them more power, and more power going to small drivers can lead to compressed sound. I won't outright discount a speaker just because I feel it may do this, but it's something I will try to listen for and just keep in the back of my mind. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3978 Registered: May-05 | The Arro is a magical speaker. It does things it shouldn't be able to do. It won't play pipe organ bass, but it'll pull off most other stuff in a smaller sized room. Its absolute SPL is a bit limited, and too much power will make the drivers hit the basket. It won't get compressed until that point, in my experience with them. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 776 Registered: Dec-06 | My plans have been thrown for a loop. I went to that dealer I was talking about earlier. He's the kind of guy who basically tells it how he sees it and isn't just out to sell you new gear; his approach is system building. He actually recommended that I keep my amp and speakers and work on set up. Let me tell you, my system sounded a lot better there than it has at home. Well, I'd say a lot more balanced. It doesn't sound bad at home, but the sound doesn't grab you like it should, it's a bit closed in and thin sounding too. It wasn't that way this afternoon. The dealer remarked that my Audiolab often sounds better because it's not as revealing as my Exposure, which will highlight deficiencies elsewhere that the Audiolab covers up. So right away when he hears what stands I'm using he says they have to go. Height adjustable stands aren't going to be as solid as they need to be. He uses Kudos stands that were filled maybe 1/4 full with lead shot. He said enough to make it so the stand doesn't ring, and more if you want to enhance bass, less to enhance the midrange. Logically it makes sense that my stands are going to be compromised...I couldn't imagine by so much though. Sometimes you gotta hear to believe. Just as I'm typing this I'm viewing some comments from users online about these stands and it seems they are held in pretty high regard. I wish I brought in my own stands to compare head to head, but the bass at his shop was just more weighty and punchy, and I think it's down to the stand. The second thing he suggests is getting rid of the jumper cables and using a pair that are non-terminated. So he made a set on the spot and let me keep them (it's 4 pieces of 1.5" wire, so no biggie). He also tried a different power cord, a $30 cord that did wonders for a lot of amps he's used over time but in this case it didn't seem to have much impact. The biggest impact outside of the stands was when he substituted out my Atlas speaker cable for LFD cable. He was a bit surprised Atlas wasn't a great match, but said that with Exposure there's a few things that have always worked well, and that's Exposure's own cables, LFD, one QED cable, and an Ecosse. Said that Atlas makes good cables, but it's all about amp load and how it matches with the cable's load (I'm paraphrasing, he probably didn't say exactly that but you get the drift). We put on some Celine Dion (lol) but he said it's a disc that can tear a system to pieces when she gets up into those high notes and pretty much yells while doing so. But it was never too much, even at high volumes. My speakers were filling up the room, which is more open than my room at home. It was doing so at high volumes while keeping it all together and never getting that grain in the treble that often happens. We spent almost the whole time listening to my own amp and speakers. For a few minutes he used a floorstanding speaker (I think made by Kudos) and to me it wasn't any more rewarding. Other than that none of his speakers entered the picture. So now I find myself backing off on the idea of floorstanders. I did hear the Audio Physic speakers today too, and like the Kudos there's more fullness and weight than what you'd get with a standmount. They were nice and smooth, but I almost find it to be too much in a smaller space. It's like a floorstander falls behind a standmount in terms of imaging and clarity. All that extra weight to the sound makes it sound bloated by comparison. I'm sure in the right room with the right setup a floorstander would sound great, so don't take that as some kind of general criticism. So it's now back to the drawing board. I think I'm sticking with standmounts and will get new stands. I'll try out my old Chord cable on my current set up (as the dealer suggested I do) and I think I'll also get the speakers off my current stands and put them back on the credenza. I always thought that most speakers sounded good on it. Maybe it's that one piece of furniture in 1000 that is really solid but not too solid. It's also full of stuff, which maybe helps too. It's not my long term solution, but I just need to see how getting the speakers off my current stands affects the sound, and how my old Chord Rumour 2 affects the sound as well. But I'll probably opt for a set of the Kudos stands in the near future. Alternatively he suggested I could import a set of Partington Dreadnaughts. It'll cost me $900 (if I do it myself, not through his store) but it'll be the last stand I ever buy. I don't know if I need to go that far, and he wasn't suggesting I should. It's a top notch stand, but the Kudos is a very good alternative that is half the price. Meanwhile I've got enough to offer on trade that I may still grab a pair of Tannoy standmounts. I've always had a thing for Tannoy and would love to own a pair of their dual concentric speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 777 Registered: Dec-06 | Man, this forum is dead lately. All we got going is a G-D political thread and another thread where about a billion album titles are listed. No offense if you are enjoying these two threads, but audio discussion it certainly isn't. Anyhow, tried out a couple of things. First I set things up as before and listened for a while. Then I replaced the Atlas jumpers (terminated with spades) that I normally use with the bare wire jumpers. The Atlas jumpers were bought from an online UK store. The result? The difference is incredible. I don't know if it's just better using bare wire or if there was some problem with the termination, but I can't even exaggerate the improvement. Bigger, fuller, weightier sound. And better organized. Music makes a lot more sense, it's got more drive and it just connects with me. I didn't hear this much difference in the store when moving from the brass plates that came with the speakers to the bare wire, so I'm thinking those Atlas jumpers are maybe even worse than the brass plates. Whatever, I now hear what my speakers and amp are capable of...and the Quads aren't going anywhere. I think maybe the spades on those Atlas jumpers are too thick and the banana plug of the speaker cable perhaps didn't go in fully. Maybe. The Quads are great speakers and they definitely can rock. Fast; crazy amounts of detail from them and the Exposure amp - I mean, I hear everything and it's all clear and has it's own space; fast and punchy bass, with good weight; and smooth but very prominent highs (which almost become too much). The dealer was right in that the Audiolab isn't as revealing. I tried it out and it was like putting a sheet over the speakers. It made some of the highs more bearable, but the crispness and clarity was missing. Then I took the speakers off my stands and put them on the credenza. Uh, no. Going from stands to the credenza really highlights how much better they sound on stands. On the credenza they sounded warmer and fuller, but separation was lost, music was bloated and more hazy than before. I don't recall the difference being as noticeable going from the credenza to the stands (when I first bought them) but perhaps when it goes from good to bad it sticks out. This time I heard it right away. So I've ordered new stands. I'm going with the Kudos S50 and will be trading in my old stands. I'll also be moving to LFD cables. Hopefully then I'll get another big jump, like the one we heard in the store. I think that'll reign in the highs a little bit, but I wouldn't want them reigned in much. All this is definitely an eye opener. How tenuous great sound coming from a system actually is. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 13123 Registered: Feb-05 | There are plenty of sites with lively audio discussions, Dan. Most of them have a playlist. That's always my favorite thread on one of these sites. I know you are a member at Audiogon. Have you tried Audiokarma or Steve Hoffman (seems like I've seen you you at one of these)? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3981 Registered: May-05 | I've been following, Dan. Just not posting much. Pre-season's almost over! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15373 Registered: Dec-04 | Back to the stands...hehehe Good call Dan. |
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