Hi everybody, Would like to get some thoughts on a 'fun' problem I have before me. I just put in a nice Rega Brio 3 & P3-24 system in my living room. Oh, and an Ortofon 2m Blue ...really diggin' it so far. Even using my very ancient, late 80s speakers!!
Now I get to shop for some more modern standmount speakers. Here's my shortlist:
Here's what I'd like your feedback on, but only IF you've actually heard these items together, please. Which pairing provides the best combination of solid bass, lively and detailed mid/treble, addictive musicality, but NO sibilance? I hate sibilance more than taxes! All this while preserving the Rega signature sound. I plan on buying secondhand, so don't want to bother dealers with auditions. Wish I could afford new, but likely need to stay in the $500 range.
My room is 18"x14" with lots of tile & brick and will be using 24" Atacama Nexus stands with Naim speaker cables.
That's it. I know someone's going to throw out the ole 'go hear for yourself' post. Still, I'd like to get some thoughts from those with personal experience with any of these speakers -- that's the whole point of this forum, right??
Do you have DIY handy, like for making cabinets? How much room do you have for placement of the speakers? Can the speaks come out into the room, like speakers on extra cost stands?
The Rega RS1 is the best match in that group. The M5i is very bright and edgy...the Totem Mite is a good speaker that may work well, and the Focal's are nice and smooth but like the Dyn's, not in keeping with the sound of the rest of your system.
Your room is likely too large to get earsplitting volumes out of your system regardless of which of those speakers you choose...which may be good or bad depending on your preferences.
Nuck, Haven't heard either speaker you mentioned, sorry. Not considering DIY for now, just plug n play. As for room, speakers can come out 12-18 inches from front wall, no side walls close by
Art, Do u think the RS1s can fill my room at mid- to moderate levels? I don't crank the volume to high, just need a good solid bass foundation.
The RS1 won't have much bass, in fact only the the speakers on your list that aren't a particularly good match for your setup will have good bass. The Rega RS3 won't take up any more room than the RS1 on stands and will provide considerably better bass punch. Admittedly the Mites will be a little punchier than the RS1's in the bass dept but I'd look at the RS3. Do some auditioning if you can.
Thank you, Art. Ah yes, the RS3's seem to be the ultimate goal. Unfortunately I can't afford them right now.
I am little surprised to hear you say that Focals and Dynaudio's wouldn't be a good match. I've read some posts here recommending these before with the Brio3. Of course, if we all agreed on everything it'd be a boring world and neither FoxNews nor MSNBC wouldn't exist!
Maybe I need to keep my old speakers and save up for RS3s? Tough one, I know
Settling for new speakers just to have new speakers is a bad route, MS. Audition all that you can, whenever you can, then beat the bushes for the best deal, new or used, and save the pennies!
Dynaudio, even the less hungry Audience 42 need more than the Brio 3 can produce to be at their best. The Focals are simply not a speaker I like (not that series anyway). They may be perfect for you. If you have some dealers availablt I would go out and have a listen.
The Brio needs a speaker that is easy to drive and reacts quickly to gain the most from the amp, as I recall from last sessions. That was a set of PSB B25's that were better left in the trunk of a car for the Rega. How about the Monitor Audio line? A bronze BR2 or up to the Silver RS6? Discontinued and rare now, but acceptable with the low power of the Brio.
From his description I'm afraid that the MA's (and the Rega's for that matter) might have a bit more sizzle on top with the Brio 3 than he would find accpeptable. MA's are fine speaker and certainly worth considering. Audition, audition, audition!
I know it's not on your list but the Quad 11L2 might be worth a look. Lanemart on Audiogon probably has them at $500 or below every once in a while. For a little bit more you could buy the 12L2. Definitely a smoother top end than Monitor Audio. As nice a finish as you will find at the price. I have the 12L2 and when given a bit of corner reinforcement the bass is impressive. I can't say they are as lively and detailed as other speakers that I've heard, but they aren't terrible in these aspects either. You can't get everything in one speaker, or at least not for $500. The integration of the two drivers in the 12L2 is first rate. This is what I noticed the very first time I hooked them up.
Another option might actually be the Wharfedales, I have 9.4's kicking around. These are very easy to drive, are by no means overbearing with the cymbals, and deliver very deep bass, if not rock solid at this price. The front ports made placement wasire, so 12" of clearance would be ok, with no sidewall reinforcement as quoted from MS.
I like these speakers, just a touch heavy in the bass for me. http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/168520-wharfedale_diamond_94_black__half_ pricefree_shipping_/
Thanks for all the feedback, lots to think about. I just may have lucked into a mint pair of 6 mos old R3's that are within my budget. Current owner prefers to sell them locally first, but if no one buys them after 20 days, I'll have first crack at them. Keepin' my fingers crossed!!!
Thanks Art! Sounds like you're fairly familiar with the R3s, so I have a question for you.
If they're only 30" high, I'm guessing the tweeter comes up to my knees, if that. I've "heard" that tweeters are ideally at your ears' listening height. Is this conventional wisdom or has rega designed around this? Just curious..
Rega has designed around it. I had the R5's for a couple of years and enjoyed them very much. A bit unrefined but loads of fun. The R3 is the sweet spot in the lineup. Your question has been asked and addressed more than once on Pink Fish. Keep in mind as Nuck pointed out that you should listen to any speaker the way it sounds best. If you wind up buying them go ahead and try them tilted back. I did it a couple of times with the R5's and wound up putting them back to level. The R5's are a bit taller and I may have preferred the R3's with just a hair of tilt.
To me, the sweet spot in the lineup means best performance to dollar ratio, not absolute best. I agree with Art - the R3 was the sweet spot. The R5 and R7 were definitely better though.
Interesting day at the casa today. I went by the local Dynaudio dealer, actually an 'upscale' home theatre palace. I'm not a fan, they mainly seem focused on big custom installs & not keen on selling $500 speakers. Anyways, I asked to hear the Audience 42s. "They've been replaced BUT we have a pr of old floor samples in the back," they said. "Hmm, could I take them home for the weekend to try in my system?," I asked. "Sure!," they replied.
I've been listening to the Dyn 42s for a few hours now. Not perfect, but not bad at all, & at times they're really very good. I think the treble is their achilles heels -- it can be a little harsh and dull at times. But still a very fun speaker to listen to.
What I came to realize with the 42s is that what I'm really looking for is not so much deep bass, but rather a sense of scale. For example, the Dyn 42s put out decent bass for their size, but sound 'small' in terms of scale. Drum sets sound tiny! So, I'm probably not going to keep them, but learned something in the process.
The Dyns can do scale just fine, but if you pay attention here you'll see that we don't believe that the Brio 3 can make the Audience 42 realize that scale. It's about mating the correct pieces. Nice report and thank you for sharing.
I think you have some terms confused. Scale, to me anyway, means how high and low something will go, frequency wise.
I think you're looking for a fuller sound than the Dyns are giving you. Not sure if it's the Dyns or the Brio to be totally honest. Maybe a little of both?
My suggestion for a speaker to try pout would be Audio Physic. The Yara monitors can be found used for about $600. That's about what I paid for mine.
Track down some Totems too if you can.
What you have going on is why we always recommend auditioning speakers. No one can really tell you how full, thin, up front, pushed back, etc a speaker will sound.
Scale:: Fish or other reptile covering Scale:: musical: as in Q'What happens when you drop a Piano down a very deep hole? A 'A Flat Miner' Scale:: Size of something. 'Large scale' 'Scale model' 'Built to scale' Scale:: What Lawrence Welk used to pay
Yeah, to me scale basically means how big a speaker sounds. It's hard to put into words, I'm not sure if it's the same as casting a big soundstage. I don't think it is, but that probably doesn't hurt. I think it has to sound like each instrument has it's own space, that it has lots of room to breathe.
I have begun to realize that scale is one of the things that I want as well. Thinking back over the speakers I have heard, the biggest ones were the ones that had the biggest sense of scale. I've done a little bit of math to try to quantify this. I multiply (in inches) the width, height, and depth of a speaker. That gives some idea of volume in cubic inches. I then take the largest speaker in the comparison and make it 100%, then convert the other ones to a percentage to relate to it. I also look at the size of each driver. Drivers might all be quoted as 6.5", but with the five speakers I looked at the actual size ranged from 6.69 to 7.09 inches. So there is some difference there too. These figures may not tell the whole story, but at least they will illustrate a good part of it and perhaps help narrow things down. For me I've determined that 1,300 cubic inches of volume has in the past given me a nice sense of scale.
The speakers I have now (Quad 12L2) have both the smallest volume (only 1,044 cubic inches) and the smallest driver from those in my comparison. This is probably why they also sound the smallest. Maybe a company can engineer around these things to get big sound, but in most cases that probably doesn't happen. I think the Quads sound great, but I will trade them in to get the bigger scale I want, from a speaker with much bigger dimensions. It's probably overkill, but the one I will buy has 1,808 cubic inches, a whopping 42% increase!
Leo, I'm thinking fish vs reptile :>)) Your post cracked me up, levity always welcome here!
My view of scale is actually the perceived size of the instruments or voices. I listen to a lot of live music, so am trying to recreate that illusion. To me, the most convincing illusion is if instruments and voices sound lifelike in size and tone. Not sure if this is what reviewers refer to as 'soundstage'? I use the term 'bandwidth' to refer to high low or high a system can go. I'm also starting to appreciate the sense of timing that Rega imparts.
BTW, plan A is still to get the R3s if the seller decides to ship, but apparently the Dyn 42s weren't broken in and are starting to smooth out a lot on the treble. They're amazing and I can see that a more powerful amp would really work nicely with them. I bet something like an Unico would be dandy with them. Unfortunately, no Totem or Quad dealers near me.
BTW, Lawrence Welk sounds like my kind of guy! Just kidding, of course
Scale: climb and one other I forget.....i thought of it while I was out mowing the lawn.
LW Village is about 12 miles from here so I've gotta watch what I write. They'll send the goon squad out and do me up. Or maybe 'flay' or 'filet' whichever is appropriate. Yep, Larry died with the first nickel to ever cross his palm.
Dan'L, Please look up Thiel Small parameters. The same driver in different enclosures will have different bass and rolloff characteristics. crossover freq / crossover slopes / phase / and much much more along with driver pairings, if you just want to limit yourself to 2-way speakers. Some tweeters may find there way into more than one manufacturers line. Same for mids and woofers.
IF you have enough room, why not send away for 600$ worth of Magnepan MMG? That, when paired with proper electronics will give you the 'scale' you desire though not much low bass. They'll give you 60 days on trial, than I think you'll get full credit for an up-line move within a year. There are other people here who have used and still own panels, but are not as nutty about 'em as I am. I don't know, but rather doubt, that the Brio-3 and the MMGs will like one another. Never heard of anyone with that combo.......
My view of scale is actually the perceived size of the instruments or voices.
That's a good way to put it. I agree with this definition. No, I don't think it's the same as soundstaging. Soundstage simply refers to the perceived placement of instruments.
Leo, I'll look up Thiel Small Parameters. Magnepan? I'd love to try them. A dealer in my area actually carries them, and I have thought about going in for a listen. But if they need lots of juice then I'm not sure they are for me...not right now at least. Bass too is something I need. Rock music. Maggies aren't the best for that, far as I know.
Scale: noun Something to avoid until I get back into the gym.
Dan, Soundstage to me is 3 dimensional, height, width and depth. Where the instruments appear is up to your set up more or less. I find different gear and room settings move instruments around some.
I do not understand why the only thought process to scale or soundstage is speaker dimensional. If I put the wrong feet or stands under my speakers, good-bye music, period. If I had not spent the time and effort in isolation, diffusion, absorption, power treatment, tubes, cables, power cords, speaker placement, system synergies, etc, my scale / soundstage would not be 50% of what it is no matter what speakers I parked in here.
M Sky, as referenced above, the Brio has its limitations. You may want to work on some other things I touched on before you audition things you cannot replicate in your set up. Perhaps work with Rega and find out what they think works best with the Brio. Used on Audiogon opens up further possibilities for you but there again are the risks of buying what you cannot hear first in your room with your system..
Dan'L Since you are fortunate enough to have a Magnepan dealer within earshot, you have zero to lose with a listen. Better watts are.....better. And of course, you must factor in how loud you listen. MMGs are mailorder only, so you will be able to hear only the SMG on up. Subs are a viable option with Magnepan, which is the path I've chosen. Don't forget, music only goes so low. I don't have the numbers at my fingertips, but there isn't much below about 35hz.... a few piano notes, some pipe organ and than the movies. Others will correct this if I'm too far off.
My point in bringing up TS measures was to say....'listen blindfolded'. If you had enough data you might be able to make sense of it, but probably not. The number of variables is huge and the number of resultant combinations and permutations is off-scale, to coin a phrase. Analysis of ??? by using speaker dimensions in ratio to driver size will drive you nuts.
I took a look at TS measures leo, waaaaaaaaaay over my head. But I understand what you are getting at.
I agree, there are dozens of variables, and as Michael said they are not all fixed to the speaker. But I would have to think that basic things like driver size and cabinet volume play a very large role. These things have a direct impact on the sound a speaker creates. The bigger the cabinet the bigger the sound has been my own personal experience. You can only get around physics so much, right? The calculations are not meant to be a complete answer, just one part of the puzzle and a way to narrow down one's options.
Personally, I have not spent much money on things like isolation, power treatment, power cords, diffusion and absorption. I'm definitely open to them, however. To start, I've considered doing some things with isolation and that will probably be my next step. But for me it's a chicken and egg kind of thing...should I spend money on these tweaks if I'm not satisfied with the components I have? What if I spend the money on them and still am not satisfied? Then I have to buy new components and those tweaks might also need to be re-done. Then again, if I do all of the tweaks right maybe I'll find I don't need new speakers.
Thing with the Quads is that they sound great for a lot of the music I listen to. I've put them on stands and after lots of moving around I've found a sweet spot in terms placement. Softer and more simple music sounds full, but the harder stuff sounds flat. While they sound great for half of my music, they seem to hit a wall for the other half. Even off of one well recorded disc, some tracks sound brilliant and others a bit lifeless. I think it's just a limitation of the basic design.
leo, when it comes to Maggies, the money simply isn't there right now to do them right. All I'm doing now is making changes that don't cost anything, or maybe just a little bit more. I don't want to bother the dealer if there is no potential for a sale. But they are definitely a speaker on my need to hear list and the next time I am in the store I will have a listen.
Dan, I think you need to arrive at a point where you settle in with what you have for a reasonable amount of time. I've been somewhere along a similar road the past six or seven years where unsatisfaction has seen me changing out components and emptying my wallet. However, in doing so, while listening to some advice and ignoring some too, I've come to the conclusion that I have arrived at place where I'm content to stay and be able to enjoy the majority of music that comes my way. If I had an open checkbook (chequebook), I would probably need to fight against an obssession of putting together the perfect system.
But guess what?
It really doesn't exist.
A darn good one does.
Then the system fades into the background and music is king.
No, love is king. Music is a close second. [place smiley here]
I agree, M.R. I'll see where the Dyns get me and if I'm still not satisfied I'll have to re-think my approach. In this case I really do think it's a case of wrong speaker for the job. A lot of people would say the Quads don't rock, but I bought them anyway thinking I could get them to. And they do, but only to a point. The Dyns shouldn't have that problem. Anyhow, this thread is about M Sky, I shouldn't be dragging my issue into his.
Dan'L You can always spend more money. But:: Just like with a business, it's location, with stereo it's setup.
Even something wacky like toeing your speakers OUT will give you some more info. MR is rite. When I do a bare-room setup, I move stuff around a lot at first, than less and less, until maybe days or weeks between small changes. As I get closer to just leaving it alone, I listen more and better. Doesn't cost a dime. I'm to the point where I'd love to do some minor room tweaks, but I'm also not going to lose any sleep over it.
R3 vs Jura's vs RS1s? Ah, choices, choices, choices. I've decided to stick to the Rega family for speakers. Still waiting to hear on the R3s (hope tomorrow). Then I see that there are used Jura's and RS1s also available in the $425-$475 range. The R3s are going for $650. So, any opinions on pros on cons between these 3 models?
Are the RS-1s much better than R3s above the lower registers? Are the Jura's one of the those special designs that some people think it is? Or is the R3 the cult favorite for a good reason? I guess my question is: which is the best all-rounder for musicality, convincing sense of scale and suitability in mid-size room matched to a Brio3? Any opinions welcome!
The Hsu hb1mkII the sweetest horn you will hear,besides the new JBL's it has a 92db sensitity,huge soundstage,with pinpoint imaging very good bass,with very very defined bass. All for $398 in 2 different wood finishes,$298 in black,$448 in piano black,all with magnetic grills,trust me you wont be dissapointed,especially with the option of being able to mate them with 1 of their worldclass subs down the road goodluck.
Thanks Art and appreciate your advice. I guess I am now officially a "Rega-Head" with a P3-24/Brio/R3 setup (sans cartridge). This speaker search experience has opened my eyes to just how vast the number of brands and models are out!! It amazes me that such a fairly small, niche industry like high end audio can sustain so many manufacturers.
I completely agree, Art. The 10x5 is the best I've heard on that TT. I've heard more expensive on it, but not better. Not even close. I just heard the 2M Blue on it the other day. Excellent combo too.
Hopefully the entry level turntables will ditch the Ortofon OMs, Sumikos and the like and look at the Ortofon 2M series.
I heard the Dyna 10x4 on older P3 once with a P-75 phono stage and thought it was awesome. I'll definitely check out the 10x5 down the road if budget allows. However, my 2M Blue is fantastic for $130 (gently used). I also swapped a Shure 97xe for a 2M Red on my vintage Dual and it's an even better bang for the buck. So, when upgraditis hits, I may have to check out the 2M Black.
The best cart I ever owner was a Shelter 501 MkII, the 2M Blue has many similar qualities to it, albeit its a little drier and not as sweetly extended. However, the 2M Blue gets a lot right and makes you forget about gear and just enjoy the tunes. I never cared for Ortofon carts before the 2M range.
At $600 there are much, much better than the 2M Black. The value ends for the Ortofon 2M series at the Blue (and frankly I don't even like the Red) after that they can easily be bested.
Congrats M Sky,i had a chance to hear the RS1 & RS3,both were very impressive,I've always been impressed with Rega amps and sources,you should have a lot of fun.