Crossover question
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Bronze Member Username: WxnetIssaquah, Washington USA Post Number: 22 Registered: Jun-09 | I have front main speakers with a low end spec of 38hz @ -6 db. My preamp is an ARC MP1. My playback source component is an Esoteric SA-60. I want to run my front speakers "large" because the woofers together with the midrange and tweeters sound better than a "small" setting. The SA-60 small speaker setting crosses over at around 100hz (I am told by Esoteric). I have bass extension amps to drive down to 17hz. The question is, how do I protect my mains from bass below 38hz, since there is no crossover in the MP1 (for very good reason) and the small crossover in the SA-60 is up around 100hz? NOTE: I am basically wanting to turn of the LFE or have "no sub" specified. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12577 Registered: Dec-03 | I honestly wouldn't really worry about it. It sounds like those speakers roll off pretty well at that point, anyway. Unless they are distorting audibly and it's bothering you, I'd just leave them specified as "large" and let them roll off naturally. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14675 Registered: May-04 | . "NOTE: I am basically wanting to turn of the LFE or have "no sub" specified." I guess I don't understand your problem. Does the Esoteric not have a set up menu which allows for both a "large" front speaker selection and a "sub on" setting? " I have bass extension amps to drive down to 17hz." Great! What are they driving? I don't understand what your set up is. You have speakers that roll out in the mid 30Hz range (given room gain they probably have usable bass extension into the low 30's) and you have bass "extension" amps that go down to 17Hz?! It's not like either the speakers or the amps suddenly stop working at a specific frequency. I therefore assume you have some other speakers or passive subwoofers that extend your bass response downward. What are those speakers or subwoofers? "The question is, how do I protect my mains from bass below 38hz, since there is no crossover in the MP1" Without an answer to the above questions it's difficult to say just how you should set up your system. 38Hz extension would definitely be considered a "large" speaker in the world of electronic crossovers. A "small" speaker system tends not to have much bass response beneath about 70Hz and therefore the frequency selected by Esoteric is based more on the user selecting small standmount or bookshelf speakers rather than larger systems with deeper range. I suppose one more question would be, why do you feel the need to "protect" your mains from signals beneath 38Hz? What is placing them in danger? It certainly can't be much in any musical score as there just aren't many non-digital based instruments which should severely tax your main speakers with low bass extension. So what is it you're expecting when you add the "bass extension amps" to take response down into the teens? Finally, not being intimately familiar with Esoteric's universal player there would appear to be one more consideration. Is all of this not a moot issue? Since I am not familiar with the particulars of the SA60, I am guessing its chipset is not vastly unlike others and the set up menu for crossovers and LFE output applies only to formats other than Redbook CD. Outputting PCM through the stereo analog outputs of the SA60 should negate any such settings. No? So how are you using this player? And, finally, finally, is your dealer of no assistance in this matter? . . |
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Bronze Member Username: WxnetIssaquah, Washington USA Post Number: 23 Registered: Jun-09 | I actually have two dealers which have been great. It's almost like going to two doctors and getting two opinions, hence going public with the question(s). Both dealer reps are highly experienced and have been in the business for many years. Rightfully, they also represent there own interests, which is to represent manufactures they support and to make money. My musical tastes are classical, with an emphasis in organ. A few of the SACD's came with warnings for deep bass and protect speaker systems. Interestingly, these SACDs do not have an LFE channel. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12586 Registered: Dec-03 | that's possibly due to many purists believing that music is best enjoyed in a 2.0 setting. 2 good main speakers, no surround, no subwoofer. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14678 Registered: May-04 | . TonyM - I would think it is very difficult for the two dealers you are pitting against one another to protect even their own interests when you do not answer pertinent questions.  You asked a question and I tried to answer your questions - but your questions and statements require clarification. I really don't care if your question goes unanswered if you don't care either. So, not trying to be snotty but you'll have to provide more information if you want to "go public" and get public support. Care to answer the rest of my questions? P.S. "Many purists" can be wrong and "many purists believe" stuff you don't need to believe. Particularly if your tastes run to classical organ works. But why in the world did you choose main speakers with a -6dB point at 38Hz if you knew you were going to be running pipe organ recordings through them? Didn't either of your dealers provide support on this decision? . |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12598 Registered: Dec-03 | *I* also believe that music sounds better in stereo, than in multi-channel on the right pair of speakers. That's why I use a pair of electrostats as my critical listening speakers. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 970 Registered: Oct-07 | Shouldn't your mains be OK with moderate loudness full-range pipe organ? If you played Saint-Saens Symphony #3 at full tilt, than you'd have problems. With proper subs, the 16hz pedal tone is a home wrecker. I've heard woofers 'double' which is a bad sign of distress and being overdriven at too low a frequency. |
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Bronze Member Username: WxnetIssaquah, Washington USA Post Number: 24 Registered: Jun-09 | Ondine Records Saint-Saens Symphony #3 SACD is the perfect example that highlights my concern spot on. This is what I am using as a reference CD in my system. Even with limited volume dishes rattle and the surrounding easy chairs start walking off on there own. With this information in mind, if I am keeping my mains (having a low end of 38hz @ -6 db) set to "large" is this type of playback going to damage the mains? Per all of the other earlier information posted, I have sub's being utilized for bass extension off the mains which go down to 17hz. This severe low end bass, though, is what I would like to try and keep out of my mains completely. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14779 Registered: Dec-04 | Yes, at some point, the mains drivers are going to be driven to the stops, but you wont hear it over the subs. Have you called the manufacturer to find out about modifying the crossovers? If you intent to keep this setup, I would. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14695 Registered: May-04 | . "Even with limited volume dishes rattle and the surrounding easy chairs start walking off on there own." That has nothing to do with your speakers. It has everything to do with the resonant frequency of the dishes and easy chairs. Secure or move the items that are rattling. Wait a minute! Easy chairs start moving?!!! You need to read this thread, https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/622869.html How the hell loud are you playing this stuff? Nuck's right about damaging the drivers if you're playing so loud you're moving furniture. Tell me these are very light pieces of furniture mounted on a trampoline. C'mon!  There is no way to filter out the low frequency signal from the speaker once it's been run through the amplifier that will not be quite expensive and have serious repercussions on your sound quality. I would not attack this from the speakers or the passive crossovers within the speakers. I would be looking into filters to place in front of the amplifier(s) driving your main speakers. Filter the input to the amp to reduce the deepest frequency response of the amp and the speaker has no choice but to respond. The amp will also be happier without having to do the deepest bass, a win/win. You're putting me on, aren't you? Furniture starts to move across the floor?! Do you keep toilet paper by your chair? . |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 972 Registered: Oct-07 | Tony, I particularly mentioned the Saint-Saens because it is an absolute monster. This tune will either cause structural damage....house... or stereo problems at higher levels. IF your amp will put out, the full range woofers simply won't take it. Woofer doubling is a dead giveaway. My panels distort in a different manner. Do as Jan suggests and get RID of the extreme LF before being amplified. It will not only be like buying a more powerful amp, but it will also preserve your main speakers. I play the Symphony #3 at low levels ONLY to demonstrate extreme LF output and than only loud enough to rattle the China cabinet. Only a little louder, the windows start to flutter. I will not abuse my mains further. |
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Bronze Member Username: WxnetIssaquah, Washington USA Post Number: 25 Registered: Jun-09 | I would greatly appreciate some suggestions or links to on a good filter to put ahead of the amp. Jan? Nuck? Leo? Any thoughts? |
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Bronze Member Username: WxnetIssaquah, Washington USA Post Number: 26 Registered: Jun-09 | ... I'd rather get the advice on a good filter from here rather than my dealer. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14785 Registered: Dec-04 | Tony, welcome to active crossovers. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14786 Registered: Dec-04 | You cn go acive in a number of ways, and you can do so cheaply. But the amps, man... That is where you are at. |
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Bronze Member Username: WxnetIssaquah, Washington USA Post Number: 27 Registered: Jun-09 | Any recommendations of active crossovers? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14699 Registered: May-04 | . What's wrong with your dealer, man. You keep knocking one or both of them! No, no information here 'cause introducing active crossovers to your system means you'll have to rip the passive ones out of your existing speakers ... something Nuck has always had a hankerin' to do for some dumb reason. You can't stack active filters on top of passive filters - one or the other but not both. You can by high pass filters to minimize low bass at the amp's input. They're not very elegant though for a system with a $16k digital player. Why don't you call Parts Express and ask them about high pass filters for the bottom end of your speakers. I'd rather you get this information from a dealer than on line. This is not a simple topic. . |
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Bronze Member Username: WxnetIssaquah, Washington USA Post Number: 28 Registered: Jun-09 | Thanks Jan for the input and everyone for that matter! I have another topic - word clocks. Where do I open this thread (or should I best leave alone)? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14701 Registered: May-04 | . Depends on what you want to know. This is a topic mostly dealt with by the computer geeks who talk digital. . |
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Bronze Member Username: WxnetIssaquah, Washington USA Post Number: 29 Registered: Jun-09 | Does the increase in time measurement accuracy (in ppm or ppb) supplied by an external clock for a "single" source device net a noticeable audible increase in performance (to the average ear)? Single source device as opposed to separate transport + DAC. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14704 Registered: May-04 | . No way to answer the question simply. If this question refers specifically to your system, the smart money is on the Esoteric and the bet would be, no, you are unliekly to find an improvement by going to two separate pieces for your digital playback. If you were using a lesser player, there could be a much greater influence on the final results. However, the Esoteric is not too shabby and TEAC has paid attention to most of the fine details with this player. Anytime you introduce an external device to the digital playback chain IMO you risk the degradation of the signal due to clocking errors introduced through, if nothing more, the simple addition of another cable. Higher jitter measurements can easily result from a separation of the transport and the DAC. The question then becomes how audible are these alterations to, not the "average" ear, but to your ear. There's no way to provide you with a defintive answer since I don't have your ears and the connected brain tissues. (Please, there's no need to offer sending tissue samples through the mail.) Someone listening primarily to organ compositions probably won't notice any effect whereas someone invested in violin Sonatas might due to where clocking errors and jitter make their presence most obvious. In the end though what you hear comes down to your own personal priorities and you and I can sit beside one another and hear two rather broadly different performances from the same music playing throught the same system. Your question then begs a "suck it and see what comes out" response. I doubt you will find significantly "better" reproduction from a separate DAC and transport compared to the all in one option of the Esoteric but you might convince yourself otherwise. You might easily find a "different" performance and be willing to give that a try. That is more often than not what drives most audio purchases in the first place. Personally, I don't approve of "different" beating out "improved" but I'm not the one spending the money. From what you've posted it sounds as though you are hopping between dealers. My real advice would be to stop that. Audio dealers tend to have an overriding concept of what sound qualities they want to provide their clients. Two competing dealers will almost by inevitability have two different concepts of how music sounds to their ears. While one dealer might not carry the equipment getting the rave reviews this month, unless you are extremely knowledgeable and experienced in high end audio, mixing Joe's ears with Max's ears in your system will almost always lead to some problems. Then, when you go to Joe and Max and ask or complain, they can only defend what their ears and their equipment is telling them. Finger pointing is the result and you, the client, are left to resort to idiots like us on a forum for some sort of answer. Minimize the number of dealers who you do business with and I think you'll find your music quality improves. . |
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Bronze Member Username: WxnetIssaquah, Washington USA Post Number: 30 Registered: Jun-09 | Thanks Jan. Well thought out and very well written. I appreciate the unbiased information. When's your next book coming out? I switched dealers late in 2009 after finding too many conflicts ranging from mere information and specifications to vender representations. I think I made a good switch and staying with it. |
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