Just bought some new speakers for my new tube amp. Will it be enough power?

 

New member
Username: Josefgabriel

Post Number: 5
Registered: Dec-09
Hello. I recently bought a Chinese tube amplifier (a Yaqin MC10-L) and wanted to upgrade my speakers as well. The amp I was using before is an old Pioneer Elite and a small part of me wonders if I should switch back to it because it has 100Watts per channel output and the Yaqin, although high for a tube amp, puts out 45 watts per channel. The speakers I just bought are the Focal Chorus 716Vs. They require a "minimum" of 40 watts per channel. I don't exactly understand this relationship but I have heard that under powering speakers is more dangerous than overpowering them. These were both a big investment for me and I don't want to endanger either. If someone can better explain how these two power rating relate to each other I would appreciate it. I can go back to the Pioneer amp but aside from being beautiful I have heard the tube amp is supposed to "warm up" and "soften" mp3s and internet radio which I listen to quite a bit. I have been re ripping a bunch of my favorite cds as FLAC to be sure I am getting the most out of the speakers. The guy at the speaker store told me that after a month or so they would sound even better.

On and one last thing. I can't seem to find anywhere what material these speakers are made out of. For the price I paid I would hope for either hardwood or at least a nice veneer but it looks like it "could" be vinyl. Which isn't the end of the world but again I have always wanted to own a really nice pair of speakers and build quality is important.

They do sound great although they sounded amazing at the store in no small part because he really turned it up which is something I can't do in my condo :-(.
 

New member
Username: Josefgabriel

Post Number: 6
Registered: Dec-09
Oh and finally I can hook these up to the amp either 4 or 8 ohms. I think they are supposed to be 8 ohm speakers but I know that gets complicated as well. Here are some speaker specs:

Sensitivity (2.83V/1m)91.5dB
Nom. impedance8 ohms
Minimum impedance (@25°C) 4.3 ohms @ 146Hz

And the amp specs:
Output Power
52W x 2 "8 ohm"

Valve / Tubes
4 x EL34B

Frequency
20Hz-60kHz "±1.5dB 10W"

Lose true degree
2% "40W"

Signal/Noise Ratio
85dB "A Weight"

Load impedance
8ohm or 4ohm

Signal Inputs Level
300mv

Input Consumption
250w
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2745
Registered: Nov-05
Hook the speakers to the 8 ohm taps. The sensitivty of 91.5 db means they are fairly efficient (easy to drive) therefore will provide more volume at the same volume control setting than less efficent speakers. The Yaquin should not have any trouble driving these speakers to relatively loud volumes - probably as much as you'll need in your apartment and imo, would most likely sound much better than with the Pioneer.

I wouldn't count on the Pioneer being a true 100 watt amp and valve amp watts are usually the real deal (true watts). You have very efficeient speakers so don't fret about watts - it should only take a few to drive them to decent listening levels.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14179
Registered: Dec-04
Underpowering speakers is bad because the listener may be tempted to run the amp into clipping looking for volume.
This is especially bad with a sand amp or receiver, which tends to clip very sharply and pop tweeters.
Your Yaquin will also clip at the expremes, but the amp will go through a fairly predictable (and audible) slope of distortion first.

If you are hearing this distortion at your desired listening level, then try the 4 ohm taps, which will limit the current from the output stage and ease the load on the amp.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14255
Registered: May-04
.

While I cannot find any measurements of your specific speakers I can say Focal is a mixed bag when it comes to being used with a transformer coupled tube amplifier. Their high electrical sensitivity at 91dB suggests they do not require much in the way of watts to drive them to adequate volumes which would make them a good match for almost any amplifier. (The actual volume difference between your 100 watt Pioneer and this 45 watt tube amp should be minimal to non-existent with the tube amp most likely to be capable of playing at louder real world volumes than the solid state Elite.) However, the speakers have less than simple electrical characteristics (low and high impedance points and dramatic shifts in phase angle) which can make them somewhat of a challenge for most amplifiers of any topology.

Additionally, the Focal line is well known for preferring long break in periods during which time they tend to sound less than spectacular.

I'm going to guess you did not buy the amplifier and speakers from the same retailer and that you did not hear fully broken in Focals played with your new tube amp. Bad on you for both should those assumptions be correct. IMO one of the most common reasons for tube amps getting whatever reputation they have with any group of listeners is most often the buyer's fault. They know little about how to match speakers to electronics, even less about tubes or transformers and they buy on a whim from some review or advertising based on dollars spent and then end up with components that should not be paired.

Tube amps are foreign to you, would you buy a hybrid car without first testing it to make certain it suits your needs?



Ideally, you should not want to have any component that makes the music sound "better" by injecting its own sound. From what I know of the ampliifer you own you are very likely hearing the combination of improved speakers and far superior amplification telling you just how crumby your MP3's and internet radio actually sound. Realize right now that should you begin with garbage coming into the amplifier you will most certainly find amplified garbage coming out of the system. More revealing speakers will undoubtedly make this all the more evident. These are the rules of high end audio as practiced by several generations of listeners. You buy a high end system to enjoy more transparency (less sh!t between the music and your ears) to the source of the music, if your music is compromised by low quality at the source, you will have managed only to have purchased a microscope to show you just what's in your drinking water - something you don't want to know.

Improve the sources and you'll immediately improve your system. Keep the MP3's for use on some cheap iPod deck or headphones.


I don't think you've put togther an unworkable combination here but you will have to allow the speakers their break in time. You can hasten this along by playing music 24/7 at moderate levels. When you are not listening to the system place the spakers face to face and toss a heavy blanket over the pair. Within a week the speakers should be coming around. There are specific break in CD's sold through magazines such as Stereophile and the aftermaket retailers like Music Direct. Using one of these CD's would give your new speakers the best chance at a good break in period in the least amount of time.


As to which transformer tap should be correct, the lowest impedance point of the speakers typically determines the appropriate tap. With a dip to almost four Ohms your speakers will more than likely prefer the four Ohm tap. You, however, might prefer the sound of the eight Ohm tap - particularly since your speakers are very likely to have a fairly high impedance in the upper frequencies. This is what makes the Focals such an odd duck for tube amplifiers, their frequency response is largely determined by the way they mate to the amplfiier. Transformer coupled tube amplifiiers have a relatively high ouptut impedance which means their response will be affected by the impedance swings of the speaker as is predicted by Ohm's Law. If you are unfamiliar with Ohm's Law, look it up, it will be your first major introduction to using tube amplifiers. Should your amplifier's output impedance be extremely high, say, over 1.5 Ohms you could find there is not one right tap for your speakers depending on the music you select. On the positive side, I do believe most listeners find the pairing of Focals to tube amplifiers to be quite satisfactory.



Allow the speakers their break in time and when you are satisfied they have reached their best sound point begin experimenting with transformer taps.

This experimentation is common with tube amps and you should hear subtle to quite obvious differences between the two taps depending on your ear's acuity to perceive differences, your system set up and the music you play. Matching the tap to the low impedance point will not in this case limit current delivery since you are making a better match for the transfer function of the amplifier - and tube amplifiers are not known for high current delivery in the first place so this shouldn't be of much concern to you at this point. The four Ohm tap is most likely to affect bass response while the eight Ohm tap should give slightly better high frequency preformance with your speakers. That's my guess at least not knowing exactly where the impedance and phase angles are wandering in your particular speakers. It might be a good idea to give Focal a call and discuss this with them since they know their speakers better than anyone else.


You will want to try the high impedance tap just to hear what differences there are with the high frequencies being better matched to the amplifier's output. Which tap you settle on might possibly be nothing more than personal preference but you will probably find one of the two to be perferrable to the other.

Always power down the amplifier when making any new connections or disconnects!

Tube amps can begin to self oscillate if they do not have a load on their outputs any time they are working. Plus it is just a good safety measure to allow the amp to power down completely and sit for just a minute to drain its power supply caps before making any changes to the system. Tube amps power down slowly compared to solid state amplifiers and they require that you wait just a minute before plugging or unplugging anything.


Put "loudspeaker placement" in a search engine and after the speakers have arrived at their break in point do some careful set up to arrive at the best system sound available in your room. My preference for set up procedures is to begin with the Wilson "WASP" program.


.
 

New member
Username: Josefgabriel

Post Number: 7
Registered: Dec-09
Thank you all for your well thought out answers. I feel much better now about my initial decisions. As far as being able to listen to the tube amp with the Focals beforehand, that would be very difficult. I did my research for a couple of weeks before deciding on the Yaqin but they are not readily available in the US. I had to have it air shipped from China. One would not readily associate Chinese manufacture with quality but from everything I have read these things are extremely well built all the way down to the connections.

I understand what you are saying about MP3s and garbage in garbage out. That is why I have been re-encoding my music as FLAC which is a loss less audio and if you can find a FLAC recording that wasn't from a CD they actually offer a superior sound (24bit/96kHz). These are becoming more readily available.

In my bedroom setup I use a Roku Soundbridge M2000 as the only input source. It grabs audio directly over the internet wirelessly from my router or from my computer. And again with lossless encoding there is no loss in sound quality.

I bought the floor models at the audio store so they should be somewhat broken in. He said they had been there about a month. I have the speakers playing music 24/7 now.

Tube amps and electronics are not completely foreign to me. I took a year of electronics but it has been since high school and have an understanding of what they do and how they work. I know I am a newbie here but I can't help but feel the need to defend myself. I came here for info and I feel a bit berated. I am not an ipod fan myself but since they came out with lossless audio they have become increasingly popular with a more discriminating market.

I have been experimenting with the speaker placement and have it set up as an equilateral triangle with about 8 feet per side. I DO love the way everything sounds I just wanted to get as much info as possible on setting them up correctly. Thanks again!





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Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2746
Registered: Nov-05
Nice stuff Jose, I very nearly purchased one of those MC10-L's myself, but I knew it would have been more of a novelty as it wouldn't fit with our ht system as well as for stereo, so the wife would seen the purchase as unnecessary. I too purchase my amps from China and I'm amazed at the quality.
 

New member
Username: Josefgabriel

Post Number: 8
Registered: Dec-09
Thanks MR. This is my bedroom setup so it is completely different than my HT setup (Denon amp, Boston Acoustics Speakers).

And btw my name is Josef :-). I think the Yaqin is a huge value. And apparently the Chinese do tubes very well.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2747
Registered: Nov-05
Sorry Josef, I took a punt that the 'f" was an initial.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14258
Registered: May-04
.

Vacuum tubes and glass shelves do not mix well. Tubes and tube amplifiers are subject to microphonics and glass shelves act as collectors and amplifiers for vibration. Look to the aftermarket for some isolation devices to achieve the best sound from the amplifier. The VibraPods work well for not much money; http://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=66

Do some looking and buy what you feel best suits your needs but do get the amplifier off the glass shelf.


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