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New vs Used

 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 59
Registered: Apr-09
Since the Saturn arrived, I've had the urge to manage a dedicated system for it.
We all tell our kids its nice to share, however splitting time with the HT system is a trait I'm not going to encourage.
Besides, there are all sorts of compromises when going this route.
Audiogon and other sites provide an abundance of options, I'm just wondering what other's experiences have been when dealing with new vs old equipment.
One of my perceived drawbacks is the warranty issue. Has this ever proven to be a problem with something purchased by anyone here.
What are the chances of something performing in a less than stellar manner, and if repairs are necessitated, has the cost proven to to worth the price saved by purchasing used?
I recall several years, ok .. over 20, when I took in a Kenwood integrated to be repaired, and the service guy told me I'd be much better off buying new, as what I was bringing in would have been much more functional, considering the problem caps, as a boat anchor.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11237
Registered: Feb-05
My Sonneteer was 4 yrs olk when I bought it and the Creek was 10 yrs old. They work well and haven't had any issues. I think most folks do quite well buying used, especially at the level that you are looking at Bryan. Just need to excercise sime caution and you should be alright. That said, were I to have been able to aford it I would have bought new.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14177
Registered: May-04
.

Everything breaks - sooner or later. That's why every manufacturer has a service department. Some lines have a better reputation for longevity than others but all things will eventually need service of some sort.

The rules for hifi are no different than any other pre owned merchandise, know what you are buying and do your best to know the history of the specific unit you are buying. If your plan is to only hold onto a unit for a few years, then your chances are minimized given the relative age of the component.

Anything more than eight to ten years old has the problem of no longer being supported even by the best companies. Older equipment runs the risk of some less than stellar tech having had their hands inside the unit so a working unit doesn't always mean a working to specifications unit.

Anything without a warranty is, IMO, a gamble. It might be a gamble worth taking but it still represents a gamble on your part.

Not much has changed in analog gear over the last few decades that cannot be upgraded by any competent manufacturer - though once again parts availability can be limited after a product has been discontinued.

Digital gear is almost a lost cause as pre owned unless the original product had stellar reviews. While an original Rega Planet would still be musical it would not be competetive with today's products selling for not that much more cash with a warranty.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 2222
Registered: May-06
Bryan, Anything without a warranty is a roll of the dice, it is like the stock market, how much risk are you willing to assume? Here is how my gear was gathered.

New gear;

Speakers, full warranty, no issues.

Sub-amp for speakers, full warranty, no issues.

CD Player, full warranty, no issues.

TT Cartridge, full warranty, no issues.

DAC, full warranty, no issues.

Power cords, full warranty no issues.


Demo gear;

Turntable, 33% or more off, no warranty but free scheduled maintenance, no issues.

Pre-amp, 33% off, full warranty, no issues.


B-Stock

Speaker wire, full warranty, no issues.

Interconnects, full warranty, no issues.

Power cords, no issues.


Used Gear;

TT Outboard motor, DOA, with JV's help repaired and no issues since

Tuner (tube), worked upon arrival but I still took it to a repairman, still needs to go back to clean up a noise issue.

Mono-block Tube Amp #1, upon arrival just I just used it, recently had completely restored to original. No issues since, work was warrantied. Cost of restoration plus amp was under $2K. If they would make this amp new it would be unaffordable for me.

Mono-block Tube Amp #2, DOA upon arrival, took in for complete restoration to original. Again, no issues since, work was warrantied. Cost of this amp plus restoration also under $2K. Same amp as #1 so here too a new amp equal to this would be unaffordable.

Power Line Conditioner, had sent directly to manufacturer who upgraded all caps and added technology to bring 5 year old unit to current. I should have it by this weekend.

Power cords, no issues


I can get a lot more bang for the buck buying used or demo / B-Stock than new. It comes down to whether new is the best option or if I can get "like" performance on something used at an appreciable savings.

You can understand that anything you can demo is better than buying blind. Here dealers and Craigslist are good sources.

Since most things are not around the corner an online retailer will usually have a return policy for new and sometimes used.

Audiophile sites such as Audiogon or Audioasylum are good sources for used gear whereas eBay has higher risk.

Stay away from the back of the white van sales.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3261
Registered: Feb-07
I've had good luck buying used on both Agon and CAM (Canuck Audio Mart).

I agree with Mike about ebay. The only time I've had a DOA component was when it was bought on ebay. It was NAD amp that was shipped in a flimsy cardboard with about a 1/2 foam peanuts thrown in for good measure. Obviously someone who didn't care about ensuring their product arrived in one piece.

Buying used/demo from dealers on Agon is pretty safe. My first used McIntosh CDP had issues, and the dealer took it back no questions asked.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11240
Registered: Feb-05
"Buying used/demo from dealers on Agon is pretty safe."

Indeed, and stay away from Ebay...for sure.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2639
Registered: Nov-05
I've bought (and sold) quite a few components on Ebay with no issues. Look at the seller's feedback score and read the buyers comments. Forget those with just a few sales. Then again, Ebayers may be more trustworthy downunder.

My last purchase was direct from China. No warranty unless I send the unit back to there, but saving well over 3 grand from the rrp here I figured it was worth the risk.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 60
Registered: Apr-09
Ya'll are preachin' to the choir, so to speak.
But not a single bad experience from the lot.
Speaks volumes for your caution, research and luck.
'course .. I'd rather be lucky any day, tho there is no replacement for knowledge or ability.
I've never bought used, 'cept for a car or two. There's my hesitation.
There's no compromise on a good integrated and a set of bookshelf speakers to do the Saturn justice.
I'd rather buy that 15 year old bottle of single malt any day.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 395
Registered: Dec-06
I much prefer to buy new, just for the piece of mind and I like my stuff to be all shiny and mint. Gear from dealers that are either a demo model (technically not new I suppose) or on clearance, or both. You save money and get the full warranty. Or you could even purchase used gear that is on consignment at a local dealer, again you get to demo the gear first and can check it out to make sure it's in great shape.

One example of the above is the Monitor Audio RS line, discounted just about everywhere I'd imagine because they are phasing in it's replacement. When I see deals like this is when I tend to pounce.

My CDP, amp, speakers, and sub - all bought new but at much less than MSRP. The only thing I bought at full price was my tuner because I wanted the new Cambridge Audio 550T (I bought it as soon as it came out).

I purchased one thing on eBay, a Yamaha Natualsound laserdisc player. At the time I didn't know where else to buy one. Of course it was used, but I got it and it works fine.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy off of Audiogon because of the good experiences most seem to have had. It depends on the seller and listing of course.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14181
Registered: May-04
.

Single malt gets better with age. You can't say that about most audio gear.



.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3263
Registered: Feb-07
Very true Jan.

I'm not even a scotch drinker, and I've tasted 21 year old scotch. It was good enough to almost make me a scotch drinker!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13928
Registered: Dec-04
I have listened to a 21 year old Sugden amp, and I believe it is a classic indeed.

I have listned to a 21 year old's music, and come to rather different conclusions.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 2224
Registered: May-06
Since when are you doing any listening when you are with a 21 year old?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 64
Registered: Apr-09
I'm not even a scotch drinker, and I've tasted 21 year old scotch. It was good enough to almost make me a scotch drinker!

Almost?
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3264
Registered: Feb-07
Beer first and foremost Bryan. Hardly ever touch the hard stuff.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3561
Registered: May-05
Some brands are safer than others when buying used. McIntosh has the ability to bring pretty much anything they've ever made back up to original specs. Its not free though. There are some independent shops that are very good at restoring Mac gear too.

Bryston warantees their gear for 20 years, and its transferrable. There's a date code stamped on everything they make. Their website explains it all.

Most of the American companies like McCormack, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, and Jeff Rowland reportedly are very good with servicing their older gear. They don't do this for free, but are resonable, relatively speaking.

If you're looking into buying used, the best bet is to buy from a US or Canada based company that will take care of their older gear. You may even want to call said company and ask them what to look for when buying used.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3562
Registered: May-05
Then again, some imported products are pretty safe from a service standpoint as well. Naim has a US service center that'll fix just about anything they've made. A lot of people send their gear to them every 15 years or so to get overhauled.

My local Naim/Linn/Rega dealer employs a tech that can fix a lot of stuff.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3267
Registered: Feb-07
Buying Bryston is in my opinion the safest bet for buying used. Their stuff is absolutely bullet proof. I have 3 Bryston amps that are 30 years old and still work perfectly.
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 636
Registered: Oct-07
While it's true that:
'Everything breaks - sooner or later.' I think most of us would prefer later...and the later the better!

All parts be they electrical or mechanical have both design limits and a 'mean time between failure'....also known as MTBF.

The $$ boys get involved with any design and dictate maximum cost of production to meet a target profit. Note I didn't say selling price. The manuf will get there profit at the wholesale level. How much the selling price can be beaten is another matter.

Bryston, a terrific example of build-to-last uses well regarded parts, a rigorous quality program and conservative design. No re-inventing the wheel for These Guys.

But, in the long run, the true measure of value is 'will they continue to fix it in the future?'
A company like Sony is always onto the latest greatest. Bose apparently couldn't care less about anything but profit, so compromises are made. They are probably making 1000% on the 'flat rate fix'.
My panels, at the time over 20 years old, were rebuilt by the manuf without quibble. And, several years later, I sold 'em and still feel good. Fair deal all 'round.

Deal with real companies with good stuff and have no regrets.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13931
Registered: Dec-04
Damn, you are right Mike, we didn't listen to music at all...and I checked for ID!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13938
Registered: Dec-04
Where do you stand Bryan?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 67
Registered: Apr-09
Well .. I made an offer on the NAIM Nait 5i-2 unit Saturday AM, he didn't want to accept my offer.
Depends on how badly he wants to sell it, I reckon. I thought my offer was reasonable, not lowball at all.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11295
Registered: Feb-05
There will be another.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3570
Registered: May-05
The Nait 5i-2 is a great amp. Its a good bit better than the regular 5i. Just heard them side by side the other day, along with the CD5i-2. That sharp edge in the highs is gone, which is the main reason why I didn't buy one.

They come up fairly often on Audiogon. I wouldn't lose sleep over it if thats the one you really want.

There have been a few Bryston B60s on Audiogon lately for pretty good prices. Have you considered one of those? I bought a B60 and compared it directly against a Nait 5i. No regrets. Not that everyone will feel the same way though.

And it'll sound very good with a Saturn.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3297
Registered: Feb-07
I was looking at those B60s on Agon. That would be a solid choice for an integrated.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 399
Registered: Dec-06
I'm sure Bryston rocks, but man are their components ugly!! I'd vote for a styling re-fresh, although the style does kind of fit in with their tough bulletproof reputation and no nonsense performance.

I know it's a silly reason, but I probably wouldn't ever buy Bryston gear because of it. There's lots of good sounding gear out there that looks a lot nicer.

Just my opinion!
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3298
Registered: Feb-07
Bryston opted for form follows function.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11296
Registered: Feb-05
Actually I love the looks of the old B60's. The one like Stu has is elegant and simple. I prefer the Nait 5i-2's sound but the B60 sounds every bit as good, just different.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 69
Registered: Apr-09
& a very positive point for the Bryston, two actually is the transferable warranty and, if one's karma is right, it comes with a built in dac.
Bryston dealer over the mountain in Asheville, NC & sadly, nearest Naim dealer is in Raleigh. Might be over that way inside the next two weeks, if work schedule jives correctly. Only two weeks of work left this year, vacation schedule has panned out just perfect.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3573
Registered: May-05
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Bryston looks better in person than in pics. Somehow, its not very photogenic.

I really like the way my B60 looks. Its a simple and understated look IMO.

I think their old stuff with the big Bryston logo written across the front is ugly. Sorry Nick!

The B100/SP3/BP16 (same case work) are pretty ugly too. But I got over the looks about 10 seconds into hearing the B100.

With that said, I like Naim's current look a little better than Bryston's. My favorite by far is McIntosh. Many have tried to copy it, none have come close.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 2228
Registered: May-06
We all have our camps. Mine is McIntosh,. Then there is Bryston, Cambridge, Marantz, NAD, Naim, Rega, Rotel, and many others which really do it for their owners. I do not think audio is about "looks" in relative terms of how the looks of a head of a driver's appearance makes a difference aesthetically to a scratch golfer . With a lot of audiophiles it is more like the stock market, follow what is hot for the moment.

A couple of faults of audiophiles is running with the bulls and going with what is the headliner, the other fault is digging in and being absolute about who manufactures your gear. Too often some are us off and running with the newest review or sale and others are so entrenched in their "Macs" that they will not reasonably allow an outsider to infiltrate.

Yes there is always compromise, but compromise conflicts with confidence. If you know what "live" music sounds like why settle for something less?

If you really want that "live" reproduction what is you course of action?

Oh yeah, two more things, "warranty" and sound are mutually exlusive, and reviews are no substitute for live music, as others have already espoused.

I just happen to be one of those "entrenched" guys.

YMMV.

Cheers!
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2654
Registered: Nov-05
There's only one name outsider . . .





. . . Xindak



Mike you need to get out of the trench, I think you're shell shocked LOL!
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 400
Registered: Dec-06
A couple of faults of audiophiles is running with the bulls and going with what is the headliner, the other fault is digging in and being absolute about who manufactures your gear. Too often some are us off and running with the newest review or sale and others are so entrenched in their "Macs" that they will not reasonably allow an outsider to infiltrate.

I'm guilty of running with the newest review or sale. But I think that is partly down to me being new to this hobby. It's amazing seeing all these different brands out there and I simply want to hear what each of them offers.

But now I've heard a bunch of gear and realize that there isn't really anything inherently special in any of them. A cheap system can sound better than one costing 10x as much, depending on things such as system synergy and simply the sound characteristics (stuff like warm vs. bright, detail vs. musicality, dynamics, resolution, imaging, etc). At first I tried to build a system piece by piece, fell into that beginner's trap I guess. Now I am trying to build a system with pieces that compliment each other, and I'm not there yet but feel I am getting close to something I will really start to enjoy.

Yes there is always compromise, but compromise conflicts with confidence. If you know what "live" music sounds like why settle for something less?

If you really want that "live" reproduction what is you course of action?

Oh yeah, two more things, "warranty" and sound are mutually exlusive, and reviews are no substitute for live music, as others have already espoused.


Live music isn't a priority for me, at least not when it comes to what my system sounds like. Sure, going to shows is something I enjoy doing, and I think hearing what live music sounds like is worthwhile. But I'm not listening to live music when I'm listening to my stereo. I'm listening to music that was recorded in studio and then mixed to sound a certain way. All I'm concerned with when I listen on my stereo is that it pulls me in to each album and it's all I can do to pull myself away to go back to real life. If a system doesn't sound right for some reason, that is when there is a problem. Because it might do just about everything well, but if it does something poorly that is what I'm going to hear.

I think if one is focused on getting playback that sounds like live music, then that sounds like one is looking for accuracy (flat frequency response) above all else. But how do we even try to have albums sound like live music, when most albums are recorded in studio and probably voiced just as much as any speaker is voiced? Only live albums that undergo very little modification can be expected to sound like live music, and that's only if a system re-produces the sound accurately. These kind of live albums are just not something I run into all that often. My impression is that most live albums are touched up prior to release, and "touched up" usually means they don't sound anything like the actual show sounded. One album I have doesn't even have the exact same vocals as on the show. Part of the vocals were re-recorded in studio for that album (they sound amazing though). I suspect this is quite common.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11297
Registered: Feb-05
Correction MR...there is another, Sonneteer!
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 2229
Registered: May-06
Dan L., the approach you defined above is reasonable. I know what you mean regarding the recording artifacts that accompany the finished product such as the CD or vinyl album.

I still think that even if you sat at a piano bar and listened to the vocalist along with the sounds the piano makes, or a small club with a solo acoustic guitarist singing folk ballads, you will get an idea of what it is about those instruments you like. Then when you listen to system components playing back that type music, you can use what you have familiarized yourself with to determine if you are getting what you want.

Listening for what keeps you engaged is certainly good, but if you can have better why settle for just good? What point of reference would you use for good versus better?

Please do not misconstrue this as my debating you, I am not. IMO you could be just settling for something when you may not need to.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 70
Registered: Apr-09
Personally, I've never tried to bring home or duplicate the "live" experience. IMO .. you can't do it. Each venue has its own unique set of acoustics and ambiance. Not to mention your frame of mind and all influences that affect you while enjoying the show.
I like to listen to music for one reason, I enjoy it. I do like to hear every emotion, passion and note that the musicians intended during their performance, and if so desired, during postproduction.
An example that comes to mind is Jimmy Hendrix's Electric Ladyland. While its a great bit of artistry, what the producers managed after Hendrix had layed down the tracks .. is that something he intended? I will never tire of listening, but I'll always wonder.
Want to enjoy live music .. go to the show.
Want to enjoy music .. find the equipment that develops a synergy between each unit, complements your environment, tastes and budget.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11298
Registered: Feb-05
I use the live experience as a reference. One particular incident was quite poignant for me. I had been to a Cassandra Wilson concert the night before I went on a tour to audition speakers. I was able to hear her voice both amplified and unamplified, both singing and in conversation.

I brought her "Belly of the Sun" CD with me to one shop and listened first to the Magnepan 1.6's...wow did they sound like good HiFi, with all the presence you could ever want from a speaker, intimate with a real "being there" kind of presence...however the woman singing to me was clearly not Cassandra Wilson, she sounded fabulous but she wasn't who I listened to the everning before.

We switched to a pair of Vandersteen 2CE's and I immediately recognized the singer as the woman I had listened to the night before. The sound wasn't as flashy and didn't grab me like the Maggies did but they clearly were superior at communicating the music as the artsit had likely intended. Over extended listening I was amazed at what those speakers could do. BTW Vandersteens are still one of my favorite speakers. The DeVores are very similar. Not flashy and don't jump out and grab you, but the music just sounds right and that's a gift.
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 641
Registered: Oct-07
Art,
With all Due Respect: I understand your use of live as the ultimate reference.
However, in this day/age the live reference is alway electronically amplified, no? So while you are there at the live event, it is still being interpreted thru electronics and all that entails.

How many true acoustic performances remain?
Just curious now. Rock, by its very nature is interpreted thru electronics.

The only True acoustic experience I've been to in the last few years is right here in San Diego, and is the last of its kind.

http://www.balboapark.org/in-the-park/detail.php?OrgID=75

This is a never-to-be missed experience. San Diego even employs a Municipal Organist.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11313
Registered: Feb-05
There are live unamplified performances all over the place all of the time. I went to pick up my Friday (Friday = last work day of the week for me) afternoon coffee at The Beanery yesterday and there was gentleman performing solo with guitar and voice. We have those kinds of performances all over the place here in the NW.

Also I don't think it matters whether it is amplified or not. Cassandra Wilson for example sounded like the real deal with the Vandy's and not the Maggie's, and it doesn't matter how I heard her.

Live is my reference and will remain so, though I have no expectation that live dynamics will ever be reached in my home. I can hope for a good representation relative to timbre, PRaT, and overall balance.
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 644
Registered: Oct-07
The Vandys are certainly no slouch. But, since I've been a panel guy for 25yrs, I guess that's where I'll be buried.
Curious, too. Maggies are generally considered strong on vocals and solo instrumentals.

NEW YEARs Resolution:: See more live performances.

Some good clubs in San Diego...I Guess I'll just have to grit my teeth, pay the price and put up with the crowd>

Art, if you wander South, give me some notice and I'll take you down to Balboa Park for the concert. NO intervening electronics whatsoever and an amazing sound / feel.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11344
Registered: Feb-05
Having owned 3 sets of Maggies I think that the presence of vocal and solo instruments tend to fool us into believing that they sound real when they more likely feel real relative to overall balance but lack timbral accuracy. I had MG12's when I went to demo that day and it wasn't long after that I sold them. I still enjoy Maggies, I'm just no longer seduced by them...!

I'd love to get that direction sometime...music in the park, sounds good!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 74
Registered: Apr-09
Well .. the hunt is over.
Ordered this tonight.
http://caryaudio.com/graphics/products/classic/SLI80/SLI80_front_800.jpg
Made a bid on some speakers this evening also.
Have the next three weeks off after this week.
Office will become the listening room, with a new dedicated 20 amp circuit. New office .. it'll have a nice surround custom desk with near full advantage of the Saturn / Cary combo
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3348
Registered: Feb-07
Very nice Bryan!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 75
Registered: Apr-09
Got the integrated as a demo from a dealer outside Philly. A good deal on that one.
I'm happy on the deals I made on A'gon.
Ohh .. did I mention .. ordered thru A'gon a set of Gallo's & the sub amp, plus additional necessities.
Only problem I have, I won't be home till Thursday evening, although I doubt they'll beat me to the house.
A priority .. a good listening chair, 'cept mines wine red

http://www.stressless-seating.com/images/Str-Reno-164.jpg
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2679
Registered: Nov-05
Congrats Bryan, that amp should sound great.

BTW - keep a bottle of soda water handy for those wine spills (lol!)
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 980
Registered: Dec-07
Bryan,

If it's a demo, it should be pretty well run in. Cary says 100 hours, but mine started to sound pretty sweet after 2 or 3 days. If you've got the KT88 stock tubes, I recommend changing them out for SED 6550Cs. Well worth the relatively modest investment. Go to Upscale Audio and read the tube rolling info.

Enjoy!!!!!
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 742
Registered: Jul-07
Very nice amp Bryan. That should be marvelous with the Saturn.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11422
Registered: Feb-05
Congrats Bryan...enjoy!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14069
Registered: Dec-04
Well done, Bryan!
Enjoy your time off.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 411
Registered: Dec-06
Nice looking amp Bryan. I'm sure it'll sound great. One day I'll have to listen to some tubes.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14073
Registered: Dec-04
I am particulary interested in what the Cary / Gallo does for you!
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2681
Registered: Nov-05
It could probably be trained to do almost anything!

 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11426
Registered: Feb-05
The Cary amps are my second favorite tube amps that I've heard right after Mastersound. Very liquid midrange...good stuff.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 76
Registered: Apr-09
BTW - keep a bottle of soda water handy for those wine spills (lol!)
Scotch !!! And I dare not !!
Can't negotiate stairs with a wine glass for some reason.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3359
Registered: Feb-07
Same here Bryan. For some reason the wide open top makes for lots of spills. A beer bottle is much better for containment.

I actually have wine stains all over my McIntosh remotes from one evening when my Dane came crashing down the stairs and jumped on my lap while I having a glass of wine. Red wine everywhere.....
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2687
Registered: Nov-05
Tell me about it. about 2 yrs ago, a few weeks after getting a brand new lounge suite and wool rug my hand sweeps across the coffee table and two glasses of cab sav go sailing and emptying over all of it. I can only say that scotchguard pays off.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3361
Registered: Feb-07
Oh man... red wine, wool rug. Not good.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2688
Registered: Nov-05
It took some doing but we got it out, Dave.


Anyway back to Bryans amp - as Nuck suggested, we will look forward to your results Bryan. I'm betting you're going to be over the moon.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3362
Registered: Feb-07
One of these days I'd really like to check out the whole tube thing.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3583
Registered: May-05
Check out a Manley Stingray if you're thinking tubes, Dave. Manley just rocks.

If it wasn't for tube OCD (baising, replacement, and rolling) and a remote control, it would have been a very, very difficult choice for me between the Stingray and B60. Maybe one of these days when I have enough room and money for a second system.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 744
Registered: Jul-07
Lots of options to explore when you get there Dave. Manley is certainly a contender. But there are many brands, configurations, and tubes to think about. Since you like the Mac sound, it wouldn't surprise me at all if you quite liked some of the tube products out there.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14081
Registered: Dec-04
Dave, your accountant called...says your wife found a large quote from a Mac dealer...

She is hoping 2275 times two is not a price...
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3363
Registered: Feb-07
lol... sadly it is Nuck.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2692
Registered: Nov-05
Hmm, some nice new lingeerie might be in order Dave!



For the wife this time :-)





Can you believe I couldn't use the correct spelling for female underwear????


Incredible!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 77
Registered: Apr-09
According to emails with tracking numbers, amp should arrive via FedEx tomorrow, speakers on Saturday.
I have the house to myself this weekend, and the only thing I "need" is interconnects from the Cary to the Gallo SA. Those I will pick up on Friday.
This gives me all day Friday and Saturday to move desk, files, etc to the new office upstairs.
As is the season, I still need, really need, a good gift for the spouse to compensate for these new toys. She's noncommittal on what she wants, and that "5 minute apparel" won't cut it.
The one thing she's expressed interest in is New Year's Eve on the Outer Banks in North Carolina. 11 hour drive to get there, and several days away from the new toys, but it might just be what the doctor ordered.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 746
Registered: Jul-07
If it's what she wants, do it man. The gear will keep.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14084
Registered: Dec-04
Call today for reservations, don't be disappointed.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 78
Registered: Apr-09
waiting on the porch when I got home.
Unboxed.
What an awesomely beautiful piece of equipment!

pure design perfection
eagerly anticipating the application


Re: OB
I'd left a voicemail for the B&B the other day.
No repsonse, nor to my email.
Hope they weren't one to fall prey & victim to the effects of Ida last month.
Will have to try them or another place tomorrow.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14086
Registered: Dec-04
Dont plug it in without speakers attached!!!!!

 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2697
Registered: Nov-05
What women want - one of life's great mysteries!


Maybe a Tiger Woods doll.

 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 983
Registered: Dec-07
"Can you believe I couldn't use the correct spelling for female underwear????


Incredible!"


I just thought "lingeerie" was Australian.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2699
Registered: Nov-05
It does look like an aboriginal word.

Like: didjabringabeeralong :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 2245
Registered: May-06
tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc

Is it Saturday yet Bryan?

tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc tic toc
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 2246
Registered: May-06
Oh yeah, David, I would put my restored to original MAC tube amps up against anything current, say built in the last 25 to 30 years.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 79
Registered: Apr-09
LOL .. thats the way it is Mike
Hurry up and wait

Picked up some 4 strand biampable AQ speaker wire whilst getting AQ Diamondbacks.
Dusted off the the chassis 3 times already. Thinkin' I need to invest in a good feather duster.
I am going to use the new kit downstairs for a day or so while getting things ready upstairs. I'm sure the sound will carry .....
More space to "breath" can't be a bad thing.

Ok .. technical question.
I am running the dedicated circuit tomorrow.
Receptacle is 20 Amp, heavy duty.
I'm looking at a Panamax M3500 in the process. Its a 15 Amp model.
On a dedicated circuit like I am running, is the M5300 really necessary, and is a 20 amp circuit breaker all I'd need in the breaker panel?
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3379
Registered: Feb-07
I'd skip the power conditioner personally. A 20 amp circuit for just your audio stuff would be fine I would guess.

Using a power conditioner is like making your amp suck power through a straw.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14098
Registered: Dec-04
Bryan, if you are looking at pulling one run, then hold up.
You will be better served by running multiples now, and adding plugs on the wall, where you can/desire.
As ingle 15 amp circuit should be ine, but going to 12g wire for a 20 Amp is gooder.
Also, a 20 amp recepticle that you describe will not accept more than one 15 A plug.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 80
Registered: Apr-09
Receptacle looks just like a normal duplex plug, but apparently rugged enough to carry that load. Not sure what normal rating is on a duplex outlet.
Wall where outlet is going is crawlspace on the other side, running additional won't be a problem. Getting to the breaker box won't be a cakewalk .. mostly time consuming.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14102
Registered: Dec-04
Bryan, if you re going to the box anyhow, pull a few axreas.
You do not need to pull 12g/20A.
Just pull a few 15A nomex runs, and put in more recepticles.
You can wire tham as a kitchen split, 15 amps/side, but that means 12g again.
Just pull up extra rgular runs.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 81
Registered: Apr-09
Ignition
Blastoff
Wonder how much more work upstairs I will get accomplished this afternoon.
3 components occupy the top of our coffee table.
Could be that way for awhile
Gallos are straight on the floor, no stands, but music.
Saturn never sounded this dynamic with the Rotel.
Absolute sound stage and presence, crystal clear.
Think I'll just sit back and listen to tunage for a bit

Stands can wait a bit, I'll get em set up, and be interested in the difference. But for now .. Pat Metheny is doing just fine.
MMmmmmm good
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 2247
Registered: May-06
That's just great Bryan!

Finally get the kit turned on and its as if the word stood still. That other stuff can wait through your initial indulgences.

It will keep getting better as the gear burns in for you. The stands, etc. will incrementally add to your enjoyment.

Cheers!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 84
Registered: Apr-09
Wiring is done except for connection at the breaker panel.
Will do that Wednesday when back in town, enjoying vacation for remainder of the year.
Stepson was indispensable achieving this feat. Ohh .. to be 19 again.
There's a bit of work to be done to the old office before I can move the kit upstairs. No such thing as vacation, just different jobs to accomplish.

Phenomenal is the best description for the transformation in music with this set up.
I was noticing on the Rotel, music was, as I've heard described here .. "fatiguing", and managing 3 or 4 CDs before its time for something else was a feat.
This set up .. I have to pull myself away from it. Presence, crispness, never ending surprise in the delivery, separation, fluidity.
I am indescribably beyond content or favorably impressed.
Art talked about live performances as establishing a benchmark, a system reproducing the degree of originality (least thats the way I interpret it) as being the goal we seek.
All I know is .. I am toe tapping happy, sitting back and smiling as I rediscover, or perhaps thats discover, all my music.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11472
Registered: Feb-05
How wonderful, Bryan. I know the feeling well. Enjoy, you earned it!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14134
Registered: Dec-04
It will only get better from here, Bryan!
Enjoy!
I didn't lie about the speakers, did I?
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2711
Registered: Nov-05
- Bryan's face.

Enjoy!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 85
Registered: Apr-09
Nuck,
You were 1000% on about those.
They are flawless.
I'm looking forward to tweaking them & their amp soon as they get "moved in". Considering the air space upstairs and room geometry that they'll treat, my office will get full benefit, tho not at optimum seating position.

only drawback .. I have to be here.

The wiring I ran today will make a world of difference upstairs. It has always been electricity poor. This is an older (57 yrs) house, and when renovated 15 years ago, the contractor didn't provide near the normal you'd expect.
I am happy he had the foresight to drill some spare holes in the top plate above the circuit breaker panel. Made the job immensely easier.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 87
Registered: Apr-09
Music has taken a hiatus.
3 year old twin grandchildren bring all things to a halt in their limitless energy. But then, when that energy stops ...

Renovation update:
Its been 4 busy days for being on vacation.
Front porch is full of removed framing, door casings and trim.
Three "construction grade" refuse bags full of sheetrock and miscellaneous trash are currently under an increasingly thicker layer of sneaux.
I've used one 2 x 4, and reused sheet rock in the "opening up" process.
Put on the first layer of spackle this evening. Will be a dusty day tomorrow. Paint on Monday.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 2255
Registered: May-06
Hopefully all of your gear is unplugged and carefully covered so none of the impending dust invades it.

Pics?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14167
Registered: Dec-04
wear a dust mask!

Pics?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 88
Registered: Apr-09
All the gear is downstairs
Upstairs door closes behind me on the way up.
Pics .. of tools on the floor? Bits of sheet rock and trash? Me in a dust mask .. I mean .. cheap thrills
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14306
Registered: Dec-04
Bryan, are U ded?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 11739
Registered: Feb-05
Hush....he's enjoying the music...
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14311
Registered: Dec-04
closes the door quietly....
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 94
Registered: Apr-09
Ackshually ...been gone.
I took the spouse to the beach for her birthday and new years. They both happen to fall on the same day. It got me out of any hot water, even tho she does like the system more every day. I even have her picking out CDs. Speaking of hot water, it wasn't at the beach. Cold as sin, she didn't care.

Office is finished upstairs. Still need to move in tho, and it was back to work today.
Will be home all this week, but travel all of next.
Carpet's been ordered, when it gets installed .. thats up to Lowe's.
Got a bit of painting to do, stairway and 6' high walls in the new music room. Upstairs is what they call a "half story".
Pics .. when its complete.
Been looking at extruded aluminum framing to do the equipment stand. Google 80/20 or look at their stuff on Amazon.
Have a good friend who's in the cabinet business, I'm working on him for the maple.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 96
Registered: Apr-09
This is bad
Heard a bit of static when I turned on the Cary for the first time in over a week.
Popped in a CD ....
No sound from the right channel of the Cary
Switched IC's on the back of the Cary .. nuthin !!!
Switched out tubes, one at a time ... nuthin !!!!
Switched IC's on the back of the Saturn .... nuthin !!!!
Sounds (I wish) like a call is in order to the dealer, and likely Cary tomorrow.
A shame since 5 new CD's were waiting for me after a week of traveling
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14385
Registered: Dec-04
Oh man...
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Gold CoastAustralia

Post Number: 2812
Registered: Nov-05
Bummer Bryan!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14387
Registered: Dec-04
Electronic infant mortality?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 97
Registered: Apr-09
Less than 200 hours on it.
Can't contact Cary till after 1:00 PM .. their hours
It'll be ready for shipping across the mountain to Apex, NC
You'd think .. at this age .. a new one might be in order. I'll see what they say.
Discouraged doesn't come close to defining the disappointment
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 2276
Registered: May-06
Sorry to hear Bryan. We have all been through this in one form or another. Heck, there's even rumors out there that Ferrari owners run into these kind of issues on occasion too.

IMO right now your best ally will be your dealer and I would try working this through he or she first. Good luck!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 98
Registered: Apr-09
Dohhh !!!! (In my best Homer Simpson voice)
There are two fuse holders on the back, containing 3 amp slow blow fuses.
Right channel was blown.
Replaced it in kind.
No more problem.
Never had a problem with the Rotel doing this.
A power conditioner will be obtained in short order to eliminate this variable.

Dealer did call this afternoon, he's actually installed a ground plate in his showroom to negate the effects of static electricity causing similar problems.

As for Ferrari owners .. some, like Rod Stewart, have problems operating the paddle shifters.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3623
Registered: May-05
While I'm glad it was just a fuse and replacing it tokk care of the problem, it begs the question what make it go bad?

Hopefully it was a single isolated incident and the fuse did what it was supposed to do. Make sure it doesn't continually happen.
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 770
Registered: Oct-07
Plug in or unplug surge?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 99
Registered: Apr-09
I think I have a bad tube, as I just lost a channel & got static briefly, the nothing more coming from the opposite channel that I lost last night. It just blew another fuse.
I switched all tubes last night after the first incident, before I discovered the bad fuse.
Still not very encouraging.
Cary won't be open till Monday morning, and the dealer I got this amp from is outside of Philadelphia.
Need to find someone local that can check these tubes.
Arrrghhh !!!!!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 100
Registered: Apr-09
It took several phone calls. Several referrals later, one place 30 miles distant has a tube checker, but he's not real sure he could check the output tubes.
Worse, he won't be back in till Monday and then he's not sure he'd have replacement KT88's or equal in stock.
So, got hold of Upscale Audio (thanks Neil) out in Upland, CA. They have the SED6550C's in stock, 4 new ones will arrive on Monday. In the meantime, music is not near the same on the Rotel, but its music.
Surprising thing is my better half really notices the difference also. That, my friends, is a really good thing.
But for now, she wants to go out for a meal, and listen to some live music.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ezntn

Greeneville, TN

Post Number: 101
Registered: Apr-09
6550's arrived via FedEx just after lunch.
Went to looking for my multimeter to adjust bias, son had it at his place.
He dropped it off along w/ grandson.
Unfortunately, it doesn't read mA.
Neither does grandson.
Radio Shack did have a meter providing that function.
In short order, reset the bias to ~75mA.
It was a bad tube at the root of the problem.
I pray that was an isolated incident. 4 tubes & shipping is not something I want to make a habit of replacing.
Sound .... wonderful ... just wonderful.
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