Change Arro's or change arcam?
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Silver Member Username: PabloPost Number: 144 Registered: Mar-06 | Just a question. If I would change something in my stereo set up -- Totem Arro's by-amped with Arcam AVR350, squeezebox as a source(and no I will never change a squeezebox -- I love flexibility and play mostly wave or flac format) -- what would make noticeable difference? Change Arro's maybe for Hawk or change AVR350 maybe entry level McIntosh? But if I would make any change -- I would have to be able to hear this change. Any comments? Pablo |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13123 Registered: Dec-04 | Good to see you again Pablo. How much attention have you paid to your room? The Arcam is fine and so are the speakers, I think. |
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Silver Member Username: PabloPost Number: 145 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Nuck The room is living room open concept with kitchen and it will not change. It is not separate listening designated room. It is regular living room with all the furniture, flowers, my son's toys....I am not saying there is anything wrong with the set up but maybe in few months I will get HT speakers for the basement. I was thinking maybe Totem tribe or hawk as main speakers? Not sure yet Or maybe just dreamcatcher?. I have now AVR250 there and I thought maybe during the same time I can do something with stereo set up. But I would only touch it if difference was noticeable . I hooked up Forest once with AVR350 and did not like too much. Hawks could be an option. Or maybe McIntosh. But probably MA6300 would be all I could afford in McIntosh line and I am not sure how good it is comparing to AVR350. With MA6300 I would probably need a DAC as well. Now I am using AVR350's build in dac and it is a big difrence vs connecting squeezebox using analog. MA6300 does not have a DAC. Also now I have Arros by-amped. MA6300 - cant do it. But I was told that with a OK DAC(less then 1000) MA6300 - Arro combination would be a big upgrade. A noticeable one. Does this ever end??? Pablo |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13125 Registered: Dec-04 | No |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13126 Registered: Dec-04 | That seems a pretty hard line betweent the flexibility of a good Arcam AVR and a 2 channel Mac. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3771 Registered: Sep-04 | I am a little concerned at the quality of the digital signal from the Squeezebox. There are better line-level streamers such as Linn's DS units (there's more than one) or the fully integrated CD/streamer/tuner/amplifier that is the Naim uniti (which can stream your music without the need for the Squeezebox - one box does it all, and sounds fab). If you must stick with the Squeezebox, how about a dedicated 2-channel integrated amplifier with a spanking built-in DAC such as the Cyrus Xpd or Naim SuperNAIT or Bryston B100SST with optional DAC module? You can then move the 350 downstairs and enjoy better quality sound for movies. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10508 Registered: Feb-05 | Don't your solutions cost a fortune Frank? They don't seem to be a viable alternative to the Squeezebox for folks with regular income. Do you know of something in the same neighborhood cost wise as the Squeezebox? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13149 Registered: Dec-04 | Like for beer income budget? mmmmmmmmmmmm beeeeeer |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2914 Registered: Feb-07 | I'm pretty sure the Arro/6300 would be a significant upgrade, based on my personal experience (I have a 6300). What kind of music do you listen to Pablo? I know the Arros are very well suited to certain types of music. Also, the listening area seems rather large for the Arros. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3428 Registered: May-05 | Different speakers will most likely make the biggest sounding change. Speakers color the sound more than anything else. That doesn't mean they'll be the best change or even an upgrade. I'd see what a different DAC would sound like. Many sellers have in home trial periods like Music Direct. Being in Canada changes things a bit, so you should confirm what the policy is. Benchmark sells direct with I believe a 90 day in home trial. Maybe that's what'll scratch your itch? The Bryston BDA-1 is sublime BTW. For $2k, it should be  |
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Silver Member Username: PabloPost Number: 146 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Frank - squezeebox stays!!! Just got new iphone and will get ipeng to control my music. Like I mentioned - flexibility and convenience. I love it! Would you rate Bryston B100SST higher then MA6300? I heard really good stuff about 6300. But probably B100SST with DAC would cost similar to 6300 alone. I was told that bryston would be more mechanical comparing to warm mcintosh David - When I go more for spanish guitar, or jazzy piano like Bebo and Cigala in Lagrimas negras or Pink Floyd, U2...my wife listens more dancing or pop, latest hits... I have to admit Arros shine with details but they lack a bit with pop/dance or hard rock.(or is it Arcam's fault?) I will probably get home 6300 and Bryston one day from StereoPlus and see. Do not think they can get Naim? Naim uniti looks interesting not sure how much it would be in Canada - probably around 5K I will probably bring Hawks as well to try but like I mention if I do something it would be speakers or receiver and I have to notice the change. Stu - I can get some stuff from my dealer to try so I will do for sure. Squeezebox has also transporter version with decent DAC but this is over 2K Every time I do something I think this is it. And after a while - there we go again... Pablo |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2917 Registered: Feb-07 | You're description of Bryston vs. McIntosh is quite good Pablo. I wouldn't say that the MacIntosh is better than Bryston, just different. The Mac is smooth whereas Bryston tends to be very precise. Yup, the Arros shine at playing acoustic, vocal and jazz music, but aren't so good for playing rock or pop (I've found). Are you in Ottawa? Stereoplus is where I bought my 6300 from! They don't carry Naim, but Planet of Sound on Bank St. does. Send me a PM if you want to talk more. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3430 Registered: May-05 | If you can afford a Bryston B100 SST with DAC, its a must audition. The Mac 6300 is also a must audition. Keep in mind that without a DAC, the system will only be as good as the Squeezebox's analog outs, regardless of how good the rest of the system is. Bryston is a bit more attack and clarity oriented, whereas Mac is a bit more warm and smooth oriented. Those aren't absolute discriptions of either, just relative to each other. Neither one is truly better than the other IMO, its a matter of taste. I prefer Bryston, due to my preception of what live music sounds like, but others believe Mac may sound more realistic. Its your ears, no one else's. You really should hear both, even if you're not 100% sure you want to change the amp. At least you'll know how your gear compares to what's available, and it'll help you further understand what you're really after. |
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Silver Member Username: PabloPost Number: 147 Registered: Mar-06 | interesting review on Bryston (with squeezebox) http://bryston.com/pdfs/07/34628_eprint.pdf |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3776 Registered: Sep-04 | Art, Yes, the ones I suggested cost a lot (but not a fortune). I admit it. I love decent quality stereo. Sue me. In fact, the suggestions I made are more related to the market I know, rather than suggesting them just because they're expensive. I also wanted to ensure an upgrade for Pablo who is looking for one after all. Pablo, The reason I suggested the quality integrated with digital inputs is because the biggest weakness of the Squeezebox is its DAC section. It's not that it's bad, but it is entry level. Using the Squeezebox with the AVR350 got around this issue. The only way to improve is to keep in the digital world until you get to the amplifier, or to upgrade the Squeezebox. There is someone who takes a Squeezebox and replaces the DAC section with an audiophile solution - the price of the Squeezebox Plus is around £2000 on its own. (That's another option of course.) So that's why I suggested the Bryston/Naim/Cyrus. Those all have solutions which will take the digital output of the SB and use their superior DACs to great effect. I would NOT use an MA6300 because the quality of the SB will not be in the same league. It's a bit like putting a £300 CD player in front of a £2000 amplifier - a recipe for disaster. Tha Arros are very engaging speakers in my view. Yes the Hawks are better, but I still feel that your real bottleneck is the SB's analogue section. Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: PabloPost Number: 148 Registered: Mar-06 | Frank I realize the squeezebox is a bottle neck but only if one uses it's DAC But I am not. That is why I got AVR350 and not a stereo receiver. B100 SST with DAC would be excellent choice. If choice is 6300 or other stereo amp - there of cause have to be separate DAC as well or slimdevices transporter. I've already tested squeezebox with Arcam and there is big diffrence when squeezebox's DAC is used vs Arcam's. So the question remains - Hawks(or other) or difrent receiver (that has DAC or separate DAC) I would never connect squeezebox to 6300 directly. As you pointed - no sense. Pablo |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10535 Registered: Feb-05 | Yeah Frank I didn't think you made the suggestions because they were expensive. |
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Silver Member Username: PabloPost Number: 149 Registered: Mar-06 | Do you guys know how much MA6300 and B100 SST with DAC are going for in Canada? |
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New member Username: Superc468Post Number: 4 Registered: May-09 | great question - would love to know myself |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10536 Registered: Feb-05 | Use the dealer locator on their website and give one a call. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3782 Registered: Sep-04 | Hmmm, Pablo, in response to your last post, I'm not sure which is the best way forward to be completely honest. My gut feeling is that you'd be better off with a better amplification stage, but the Arros can be a bit ... basic. Lots of fun and engaging but limited in what they can do. Don't get me wrong - they're brilliant speakers and the AVR350 is also a very capable receiver, but if you were truly looking for an upgrade we have to look at where the weaknesses lie and what will give you the biggest bang for your buck. I think if it really came to it, in a normal sized room I'd probably say the amplifier is the weak point. Possibly... Sorry, best I can do... |
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Silver Member Username: PabloPost Number: 150 Registered: Mar-06 | Just checked MA6300 - around $4300, B100 SST with DAC $5000. I have to do some good thinking because this is a lot of $$. I will for sure try to bring both home ant try it. Frank, I spoke to the dealer and his opinion is the same. If change one - go for amplifier. Pablo |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13203 Registered: Dec-04 | Pablo, you really need to hear these two VERY different amps... regardless of source. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2721 Registered: Jun-07 | I agree. Both are very different. Must be auditioned in the home Pablo. Both the 6300 and 100sst are SICK. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13212 Registered: Dec-04 | Pablo, I bought a MA6900 amp for 4000 cash a few months ago from CAM , I suggest you look for that one. The EQ (while I eschew it's very existence) is set at 10k kneed up a few db's. The Mac build is there, the EQ is seamless, and I mean transparant. This unit lacks only in maximum output, but it is 200++ watts. I consider this to be a fine Mac offering, barring very difficult speakers, and a lifetime worth of listening, so long as I like it. So far, I do. |
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Silver Member Username: PabloPost Number: 151 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks for all the info, I will try to get them both to listen with Arro's. Then I will have to think about the price - depends if the listening difference is significant enough to justify the upgrade. Maybe I can use AVR250 (currently in my HT) as a trade in and bring AVR350 to HT??? At the end is a $$ Pablo |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3785 Registered: Sep-04 | Hey, if you're looking at $5000 amplifiers, you'd be crazy not to listen to a Naim SuperNAIT too if you can find a Naim dealer in your area (ok, so I'm a Naim dealer on Saturdays, but ...). That's got the DAC built-in and costs around $4000. Just add Naim speaker cable. |
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Silver Member Username: PabloPost Number: 152 Registered: Mar-06 | Frank Well first my dealer does not cary Naim. Yes I can get it elsewhere but I am getting good prices at my dealer. Second I read lots of forums where people were comparing supernait with MA6300 and MA6900 and with most reviews naim could not touch mcintosh. Almost the same comparing with Bryston B100. Can't comment on this, only what I have read. Also Naim is bit short on power. Hard call |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2723 Registered: Jun-07 | Pablo, were you in fact reading this on a all MAC- gang s1#t forum.lol. The NAIM, and Bryston, easily compare to both those MAC products. They do things better than MAC does, and MAC do a few things better as well. Depends on the listening preference. I would say NAIM is easily in MAC's league. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10559 Registered: Feb-05 | I agree with Nick. Naim is in an exclusive league relative to quality. I certainly don't like Mac any better than Naim...listened to them both many times. Both are great names for a reason. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13229 Registered: Dec-04 | Naim does not need comparisons, it is fine alone, tyvm. Now the Rega Isis stuff... |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3789 Registered: Sep-04 | Pablo, Well, if you've always hankered after the McIntosh, and you've got a good dealer then I'm hardly one to stop you. I'm just glad you're considering something in what one could call true audiophile stakes. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3436 Registered: May-05 | Its very hard to go wrong with Naim, Bryston, or Mac. People have their preferences, but they're all equal IMO. If someone says one is truly better than the other, they either don't know much about this hobby or they're trying to sell you what they have. The SuperNait should have no problem driving the Arros. Its only short on power on paper. We all have preferences and favorites. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3437 Registered: May-05 | Its very hard to go wrong with Naim, Bryston, or Mac. People have their preferences, but they're all equal IMO. If someone says one is truly better than the other, they either don't know much about this hobby or they're trying to sell you what they have. The SuperNait should have no problem driving the Arros. Its only short on power on paper. We all have preferences and favorites. |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 909 Registered: Jun-08 | Hicups Stu? lol....Good points. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2934 Registered: Feb-07 | lol... It's very true Stu. Having owned both Bryston and McIntosh (no experience with Naim) I say honestly say they're equal. Very different, but equal in quality. In a perfect world, I'd have 2 systems - one Mac and one Bryston. I heard Arros driven by Bryston gear a thousand times. A very good match. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3450 Registered: May-05 | SimAudio is also a very good match with the Arros. Their integrateds are what really got me loving the Arros. Sim has optional DAC cards for their integrateds for a relatively decent price. Have you heard the Sim integrateds Pablo? |
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Silver Member Username: PabloPost Number: 153 Registered: Mar-06 | Stu - no I have not, I know moon series has excelent reviews. But I think when it is a time to do this I will choose betwen bryston and mcintosh |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2938 Registered: Feb-07 | You really can't go wrong with either one. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3452 Registered: May-05 | I wouldn't dismiss Sim either Pablo. They're in that class too. Their entry level is lower than Bryston and Mac's entry level, but equally priced stuff is equally good IMO. Different, but just as good. Sim is a bit polite and can be called pedestrian, especially in the highs. It will probably be most similar to Arcam than the rest of the bunch. Better than the Arcam in probably every way, yet still being similar. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 3792 Registered: Sep-04 | David, no Naim experience? Hmmm...must be remedied...MWAHAHAHA And SimAudio is also a fine brand from what I've heard. I didn't think it pedestrian myself when I heard it, but then different environments can do that... |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2939 Registered: Feb-07 | Frank, my wife will kill me! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3454 Registered: May-05 | Frank - I don't think its pedestrian either, but I've heard others call it that. That's what I meant by "can be called pedestrian." I guess I was a bit misleading. David - You won't go hear Naim! (How do you type the sarcastic kid's voice?) |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 2940 Registered: Feb-07 | There is a Naim dealer in town.... Hmmmmm. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2737 Registered: Jun-07 | Just heard the Sim Audio Moon Integrated ( I forget which one) and the Totem Arro's last night actually. Very good. Source was also a Sim product. Very very good stuff. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 10624 Registered: Feb-05 | Yes it is, very good! |
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