PMC TB2i trial

 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 168
Registered: Dec-06
So I am heading out soon to pick up a pair of TB2i for an in home trial over the next few days. The dealer is also giving me a nice integrated to power them with, probably an Audiolab. My little Denon has served me well, but with this class of speaker I'd like to hear them with something more in their category. Pics and impressions will be forthcoming. In the coming weeks I will be comparing these to my Quad 12L actives, and that will determine in which direction I go. I am off work this week and plan to do a lot of listening, it should be fun!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 10255
Registered: Feb-05
Outstanding Dan! Look forward to reading your impressions and seeing your pics.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12944
Registered: Dec-04
Audiolab, eh?
Very nice!
funky looking, too.
Looking forward to it Dan.
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 880
Registered: Jun-08
Dan, I've heard the current Audiolab stuff, running Monitor RS6 and it was bland and boring - which is not how I'd describe my usual experience with the RS6, therefore, I chalk it to the Audiolab source and integrated. Though on paper the seem to look good they lack any PRAT from my experience.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13755
Registered: May-04
.

I thought you just purchased the Quads?! You're tired of them already?
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 169
Registered: Dec-06
haha, no I'm not tired of them yet. I haven't even listened to them! But they were a bit of an impulse buy and I started to have second thoughts. So I figured I might as well try out other speakers in the Quad's range, and if I prefer them I can put the Quads up for sale. I'll probably be able to get right about what I paid for them. I just want to make sure they are really what I want and the only way to do that is to try out other speakers I like. I'm pretty sure I'll like the TB2i, I heard the DB1+ a while back and really was taken by it.

Anyways, so far I've only tried out the Audiolab. It's the 8000S. I figured since I have it I may as well also try to hear how it performs. George, your description of the Audiolab sound is more or less what I'd read online, but I must say that I am really impressed with what I hear. It doesn't sound bland to me at all. Maybe this is simply because I'm used to listening to a Denon minisystem. It's nice for what it is, but when I powered my speakers (Tannoy F2) with the 8000S the improvement in sound was definite.

I'm still running the Denon as preamp and CD player in this configuration, the Audiolab as power amp. I guess it just has a lot more power than the Denon, and so I didn't have to turn the volume knob up as high as before. I kind of expected that. But the sound was a lot more authoritative all the way around. I don't know if it somehow dug out more detail, I think not, but I am hearing things that I bet I'd heard before but now they are right up front along with everything else. I guess the 8000S just has greater control over the speaker. I think with that control there is less compromised in the sound. Musical notes seem to resolve better now too, the progression of the music is easier to follow.

I really enjoyed the sound coming out of my Tannoys. It's making me think of an amp upgrade and maybe not a speaker upgrade right now. I could get the 8000S I think at something like $600, or I could consider other options. I'd love to hear Rega, Arcam, or Naim in my current setup - the Audiolab sounds great compared to the Denon, but perhaps would be lacking a little next to Naim or Rega.

When I asked about trying out an amp too, I was hoping to hear a Cambridge Audio 640/650 or an Arcam amp, but the Audiolab was the one they had on the floor in use. I didn't think I'd actually like it this much. I didn't think an amp could make a system sound this different. Again, what strikes me most is that it now seems that everything happening in the playing of a song is right there and easy to hear.

Anyways, now to hook up the PMC's...
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2334
Registered: Nov-05
Looking forward to your impressions Dan, as much as I like Quads, I'd be very surprised if the PMC's don't surpass them. After all, they are in a much different cost league - at least they are here.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 170
Registered: Dec-06
It feels a little to me like comparing apples and oranges, both in dollar value and sound. The Quads are the active variety while of course most speakers, including the PMC, are passive. The PMC here retails at $2,400 or so, while the Quads are about $2,000. But if we compare passive model to passive model, the Quads are presumably much cheaper, probably around half the price. The active model is based on the older L speaker, not the L2. If the Quad 12L passive is about a $1,200 speaker, does that mean there is about $800 of value in the amps within the active 12L?

And I'm thinking it may be hard to account for it's sound, since you cannot separate an active speaker from the amp when you do an evaluation. Is is the speaker or the amp that is responsible for this quality in the sound I'm hearing?

But perhaps it doesn't matter. If the Quads blow me away then I should keep them. It doesn't matter if it's the active design or the speaker itself that is primarily responsible. But if they do not, even if they are just as good as the PMC but not any better, I think I'd prefer the ability to customize my system that a passive speaker would allow, whether it's the PMC I end up owning or something else.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2335
Registered: Nov-05
Yes, my standmounts are the 12L's passive so what you are comparing isn't really relevant except for which sound you prefer. But, I agree with the passive speakers giving you much more leeway in the upgrade stakes. Happy listening.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 171
Registered: Dec-06
These are big speakers! Listened to three songs last night.

Treat Me Well by Heart. Acoustic guitar had a delicacy that I'm not used to hearing. Beautiful! These speakers are really smooth and refined sounding.

Barracuda, again by Heart. This is a good song to test the high frequencies. On my system Wilson's voice, and the guitar, can result in a very shrill treble. It's like a ringing sound. I'm sure you all know it. This was tamed big time with the PMC. I guess this is what a true high end speaker can sound like. One thing though, this speaker is quite laid back and maybe not the best for this kind of music.

November Rain by GN'R. These speakers never sound flustered, but again their somewhat relaxed nature may not make them the best options for rock music. Bass and mid bass seem to be somewhat closed in.

Overall a very neutral presentation, with sweet sweet highs, but not a very in your face sound due to what I perceive is a lack of bite in the bass/mid bass that I'm not used to with my Tannoys. Lots more listening to do today, I'll see if this sound grows on me. I do listen to a lot of rock music so I need to make sure it's compatible with that. I bet these would be great with other genres though, classical, jazz, acoustic rock, etc. AVReview.co.uk did a review and kind of had somewhat similar impressions. They said nothing really stood out for them, the speakers are not in your face, but they kept coming back to them because they seemed to do everything right.

One thing is that it's nice to know what I like from a tweeter, something that gets close to that ringing sound but never actually gets there. And some snap in the bass and mid bass. I'll do more listening today. The store also carries ProAc, I think I might listen to the 110 when I return the PMC, do a quick comparison to see what the immediate differences are and if that speaker might give me more of what I want.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 10278
Registered: Feb-05
I owned the Studio 110. It has bite. I'd prefer the PMC's, but it's not my ears that need to enjoy them.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 172
Registered: Dec-06
Well, I'm hoping that they have the 110 to listen to. I saw a few ProAc towers there when I picked up the PMC.

Nice to hear they've got that bite Art. From the little that I read about the ProAc this is what I gathered. It seems to be a speaker that is known for drive, it would probably mate well with Naim or Rega gear (and one Naim/Rega dealer I know carries ProAc too).

What did you particularly like/dislike about them, Art?

Anyways I'm off to listen to some music now, first up is Leonard Cohen. I bet Cohen will sound phenomenal on the PMC's.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 10280
Registered: Feb-05
It's been a couple of years now Dan. As I remember they were a bit clinical and/or analytical sounding. Detailed and a bit edgy without alot of soul. I think that ProAc does better a little further up the line.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 173
Registered: Dec-06
Okay, some pics:

Upload
Upload
Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 174
Registered: Dec-06
Upload
Upload
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Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 175
Registered: Dec-06
Upload

A nicer shot of the Audiolab.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2336
Registered: Nov-05
I see a problem right off Dan. Speaker placement and lack of grounding to a solid base. I don't think you are being fair to these beauties with the current set-up. Lovely looking speakers btw.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 176
Registered: Dec-06
How would you alter the placement M.R.? I'm not sure there are many options in this room.

I get the solid base thing. I'm sure stands are probably ideal, even though the desk is very solid and heavy.

One thing I love about the PMC is that there are no cabinet resonances when you do the knuckle test. It's as dead a sound as I'd guess you'll probably ever hear.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2337
Registered: Nov-05
Dan, I can't see the rest of your room, but for starters you have one speaker close to and angled towards a corner and the other directly in front of a window (the blinds will do little to avoid reflections) and at the very least, if on top of the cabinet is the only place for them, then placing something under the speakers like little rubber feet or a dampening mat etc. would be preferable.

The speakers themselves (or the tweeter) should be at ear level for better listening. Plenty of info on the net for speaker placement. Just my 2 cents worth Dan.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2338
Registered: Nov-05
or try blu-tac under them, but I'd try for improved placement as well. Maybe experiment a little.

And maybe a blanket over the window (if only temporary).
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 177
Registered: Dec-06
The tweeters are at ear level. It's a computer room and so I always boost up my computer chair when listening.

Rubber feet came with my old Energy speakers, and not with the Tannoys. I thought they were a good idea and so I stuck one on each corner onto the Tannoys. I can't do it on the PMC's though, since they aren't mine!

Don't get me wrong, I think the PMC's sound great. The Tannoy's too, I believe I've heard what they are capable of when running through the 8000S. However, I will consider re-configuring the room, to perhaps move the stereo away from the window and the corner. I think that makes a lot of sense. The walls to the left and right are longer than the wall that the stereo is on. I can probably place the stereo right in the center of one of those walls.

My only concern is how far back I'll be able to sit, but I think it should be fine. I was actually sitting back as far as I could get up until recently, when I read that you should sit in an equilateral triangle shape relative to your speakers, i.e. that the distance between you and the speakers are the same as the distance between the two speakers themselves. So I moved up, the difference is noticeable.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 10285
Registered: Feb-05
You definitley have not heard what they are capable of with or without the Audiolab. The setup is poor at best. I do however understand room limitations. There are more than a few reasons you haven't heard what they are capable of, not the least of which is the source and amp.

Wish you could set up stands in your room. Also would be nice to try an amp with a little more life as well as a good source.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2339
Registered: Nov-05
Well good luck with it. I think you'll find it interesting. However, it's a bit of a shame about that window as the long room placement is preferable to the short room one. Let us know how it goes. As for using Blu-tac instead of rubber feet, it should come off okay, but we'll leave that up to you ( no responsablity taken) :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 178
Registered: Dec-06
Yeah, it sucks that the room gives me little in the way of options. Might have to start house hunting!

I think that I'm starting to acclimatize to the more relaxed tonal character of the PMC however. There is an adjustment period. The dealer also mentioned that the speakers aren't broken in (not even 100 hrs yet), so maybe that's happening as I rack up a few hours. Just listened to some Billy Joel and Soul Asylum (Grave Dancer's Union is a great recording), and Leonard Cohen; all sounded great!

I guess this wasn't a perfect demo, but then again not many of us have the perfect room. It's also about learning something, and I think I got a taste of what a truly high end speaker can do with it's sweet sounding tweeter and beautiful sounding acoustic guitars, the richness in the bass and mid bass; and while the Audiolab maybe isn't great shakes it does make my Denon sound pretty feeble by comparison. It may not be a huge step up, but it is a definite step up. I think it was Stu Pitt who long ago recommended I upgrade the Denon and this demo has kind of pointed me in that direction. Unless I dig the Quads, which of course have their own amps, my next move will probably be to upgrade the electronics and leave the speakers for later. Might look into some stands too and if there is a better way to configure the room.

Do you think it's more important to set up against the shortest wall or more important to get away from the corner and the window? The walls aren't that different in size, 10'6" vs. 11'6". A little off center I'd wager is beneficial to dead centre.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 179
Registered: Dec-06
Now here is something I wasn't expecting. I just listened to You Got No Right by Velvet Revolver, the album this comes from suffers from a decent amount of compression and always sounded very harsh on my Tannoys (sounds great on my Sony boombox though!). Well, it sounds really good on the PMCs, like they were able to filter out a lot of the distortion. Maybe the Tannoys are just overly bright. It kind of makes sense to me that speakers that tend to be less in your face might tame some bad recordings.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3393
Registered: May-05
Getting the room right is as much trial and error as it is science IMO. Try different stuff and see what improvements are made. Stands will help not only with a solid base and its sonic improvements, but also give more options as to where the speakers can go (ie not just being on the desk).

You're in the right ballpark about the PMCs. They're not a forward soundstage, in your face speaker. They give a huge soundstage, but its more like a wall of sound than 3-D. They break the plane of the speaker, bit not too much. They're an excellent speaker that's definitely capable of doing rock music justice IMO. I think a part of that may be placement. But the soundstage isn't going to get that close to you no matter what you do.

I think I recommended Audio Physic before, but I'm not sure. They sound very similar, but are far more 3 dimensional sounding. They're also fuller sounding than the DB1+. I haven't heard the TB2i, I'm going by the TB2+ and DB1+.

I chose the Yaras because the more 3-D imaging, the soundstage being closer, and the fuller sound. Everything else was remarkably similar IMO.

Obviously the rest of the gear matters. I don't know the Audiolab, so take that as you will. The Arcam is a bit polite and laid back, so this isn't really helping matters either; not that they're overly polite or laid back.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2342
Registered: Nov-05
Judging by your room dimensions Dan, I don't think one way or the other will make much difference - apart from those other matters.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 180
Registered: Dec-06
Hey Stu,

I think I passed judgment a little too quickly on the PMC. Obviously one has to give it more than three songs, and I did realize that which is why I kept listening. I guess in those first impressions one really notices what they think they may not like, but as they become accustomed to the new sound realizes it actually works! I agree they can rock...the last few tracks I listened to were Welcome to the Jungle, Dead Horse, and Mr. Brownstone. Sounded great.

I could easily live with these babies long-term, and whether I buy them now or not I can see owning them somewhere down the road. To buy them now would mean spending $2,000 plus a new amp, less my Quads. $500-$1,500 depending on what amp I opt for. I'm kind of hoping for now that the Quads impress me, I won't have to worry about an amp, and then in a few years when I've got some cash maybe grab the TB2i with a new amp.

I need some new interconnects for the Quads and I was going to buy those online, but I'm going to buy them from this dealer and also put my Energy C-1 up for consignment at their store. Even if the Quads are sold I'll still be able to use the interconnects.

I'm sure I haven't heard the PMCs at their full potential, with that said I've got no complaints against the 8000S. I felt even when listening to the PMCs that they were driving them with relative ease. I'm sure there is much better, I'm coming off listening to a Denon minisystem of course. The Audiolab is a $1,000 amp though, not too shabby.

The room will be an ongoing process, but it's one of the toughest things to change. I actually don't think mine is that bad. There are things about it that are not ideal, but it is carpeted and the ceiling absorbs sound too. There is a bookcase on the wall opposite the stereo, a computer desk to it's left and a CD shelf to it's right. Clapping elicits only a very faint echo if you listen carefully. That said I think I'll be moving the stereo to another wall, I'm sure the corner and that window are doing it no favors.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 186
Registered: Dec-06
Racking up some hours on the Quads now. A little thin on first listen but as more hours go by they are filling in a bit.

These are extremely detailed speakers. I'm not sure if that's just because they are active studio speakers, or if that's the nature of the Quad line. Whathifi has a review of the passive 11L2 model and apparently the high clarity and detail applies to that speaker as well.

The detail is something else though. In The Stones' Wild Horses (off Stripped, a phenomenal recording) I can hear both Mick and Keith perfectly when they are singing harmonies together. In an heavily layered acoustic guitar track like L.A. Guns' The Ballad of Jayne you can totally make out every little pick at the guitar strings under all the other layers. I love listening to drums too (in general, not just with these speakers). Now I can make out every single drum beat in a pattern, whereas before maybe one or two beats just weren't that noticeable. The Naim vision is of uncolored sound, present what is on the disc and that's it, forget about hifi stuff like imaging and soundstaging and warmth. Well, I would guess a speaker such as this one would achieve that end more than an amp or CD player on their own ever could (though you could certainly use the Quads with Naim components!).

Did I mention dynamics? This thing has it. Deep drum beats have a kick to them that I don't hear from most other speakers. Low volume to high volume sounds happen fast and with resolve. PMC was no slouch in this regard. And me Tannoys? Well, as good as they are for $300 speakers they are simply outclassed by their more expensive rivals.

In tradeoff to the high detail, clarity, and dynamics, the Quads lack the warmth and fullness of the TB2i. They sound quite thin. They do not have the sense of scale of the PMC, or my Tannoys for that matter. They cast an image right at the speakers, with little off to the side and definitely nothing further behind. Perhaps this is the tradeoff that happens when you stick an amp into a speaker enclosure? Makes sense to me.

I said this before (in another thread) but I'm not necessarily a stickler for a certain kind of sound. Once I get accustomed to a speaker's particular presentation I can generally appreciate it for what it does well and enjoy that. I've enjoyed both of these speakers immensely.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 10311
Registered: Feb-05
Well done Dan.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2351
Registered: Nov-05
Good write up Dan.

I have noticed with my Quads that they take a particularly long time to run in. They are also very sensitive to positioning, performing best when at a certain distance from the rear wall, due to their rear port system. I have no experience with PMC other than they are always very well regarded.

I did not think my 12Ls were bass shy considering their size, but they are the passive ones unlike yours.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 187
Registered: Dec-06
I have all but decided to get both speakers! It'll involve several steps though...

1. I will likely put the 12L actives up for sale and should get back what I paid for them, or pretty close.

2. I will upgrade my amp from the Denon to something else, for about the money I receive for my Quads.

3. I will buy the 12L passive (hopefully in gorgeous cherry finish). On the used market they go for a large discount vs. new. These will be my speakers for a while.

4. Sell the Tannoys.

5. Buy the TB2i, Quads move to HT use.

This whole process will take the better part of the next two or three years, unless I win the lottery in which case make that two to three days.

If I want the TB2i as my long term speaker choice then I will have to buy an amp, so it simply more economical to buy an amp now rather than keep the Quad actives and have to buy an amp later on when I get the PMC. I think the 12L passive will give me a lot of what the active offers (judging by reviews at least), dynamics may not be as great, but the amazing clarity and detail should make for a good HT speaker. Plus I'll have two speakers that do different things, which I can both enjoy for music listening.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2352
Registered: Nov-05
Sounds like a plan Dan.
Hope it works out for you sooner rather than later.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12984
Registered: Dec-04
A nice classic 50w Mac amp would work very nicely...
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 208
Registered: Dec-06
I figured I'd post this little update here since this thread also contains pictures.

I have changed the layout of my room. The stereo is out of the corner and away from the blinds. There is a much bigger soundstage and lower frequencies sound better defined. I should have done this a long time ago!

I'll post new pics somewhere on the forum once I get the Wharfedale's and my new amp up and running.

By the way, the new amp > YBA YA201. Great prices on these lately, I just had to get one. A local dealer has them on sale, 40% off brand new with full warranty.

The Denon amp and Tannoy speakers will be up for sale soon! All told this should be a pretty big step up from what I had until now.

Wasn't expecting to spend this money now but I think these are great deals and I won't regret it (fingers crossed).
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 10443
Registered: Feb-05
That YBA amp is a pretty good one...should sound excellent.
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