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Acoustic Research SP9 Mk II

 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 814
Registered: Jun-08
Came across one for a resonable price, as it seems and wanted to know if anyone had any thoughts about pairing with a Bryston 3B-ST?? It's a solid/tube hybrid. Just scoping things out.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2606
Registered: Jun-07
They make great gear. The tube pre's with a fast paced slick rick 3B solid state would be a killer combo IMO. To this day my favorite combo I have heard was a tube pre and a solid state amp.
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 815
Registered: Jun-08
Yeah, at the store I met the guy who was trading it in. He was trading up to a new AR pre. He actually is a parts supplier and supplies Bryston with some parts for their amps. He spoke well of my 3B-ST and his suggestion was to spend as much as I could afford on a preamp because that's the life blood of the system.
I know I'm solid with the 3B-ST so now I'm considering what my next step is. I need a pre and a good source and then speaks.
The owner/salesperson could not speak more well of AR. I listened to a $30,000 system. Focal Utopia Diablos paired with AR. It was absolutely wonderful but probably somewhere I'll never get to .
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2608
Registered: Jun-07
Yeah George. When you stick a really good pre amp in front of that 3Bst you will think it is a totally different amp. I couldn't fully hear what the 3B had to offer until I put a better pre amp on it. I too was using an AVR, and when I put the Bryston pre on the system it was instantly better.
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 816
Registered: Jun-08
Yes Nick, your comments go along with everything I've heard. Tks.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 10025
Registered: Feb-05
I have a friend who runs an AR hybrid pre with powerful solid state mono's and it sounds absolutely fantastic.
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 834
Registered: Jun-08
Yup. AR is now on my list. They are just sooo expensive. I'll need to go used for sure.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3359
Registered: May-05
A few guys on the Bryston circle on Audio Circle use Audio Research tubed pre-amps. Audio Research makes top notch stuff. There was one I heard of that had to be re-tubed by a knowledgable dealer at the very least or by the factory. Something about difficulty getting to the tubes and people causing damage when replacing them.

I can't remember the model, but I'd avoid it, especially if I lived in Canada. Do some research to make sure its not the one you're looking into. There are a ton of Audio Research users on Audiogon's forum, so when you have a model in mind, you should ask over there as well.
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 840
Registered: Jun-08
Thanks Stu. I'll take a look on Audiogon's forum.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2764
Registered: Feb-07
Any follow-up George?
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 843
Registered: Jun-08
I was speaking to a friend of mine who agrees that Audio Research is a quality product; however, he was suggesting that tube technology has really made some great leaps in the last 5-7 yrs and to buy something as old as 18 yrs may be buying old technology. Given that I have not heard this specific pre-amp, I've now got the cold feet...unless I can get it for a good price. Then I could always sell if it didn't work out.
Still looking into but no snap yet.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2771
Registered: Feb-07
Take your time my friend.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3361
Registered: May-05
David is right... Take your time.

I wouldn't put too much stock in the whole keeping up with technology thing. If something sounds great and is well built, does it really matter? Saying that a newer one would be better due to less age and wear and tear is one thing, but a classic design is classic for a reason.

Ever see a well maintained Porsche that's too old?

Again, I don't know much about the one you're looking into, just giving you my general thoughts.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13714
Registered: May-04
.

While it's generally true that Audio Research has never built a bad component over the years there have been greater and lesser products from the line. Personally I would not put much stock in the idea of "old" technology being inferior though you might consider what AR has done with the hybrid concept in recent years. Where have they taken the idea? Do they still consider it a viable model? If so, then you have your answer. If not, why not? How does the unit sound to you? Musical? Then what does it matter what anyone else thinks? Music is what you are after, right?



Therefore, before I made a decision on a component I had not auditioned I would ... audition the component. Sad to say passing up an opportunity to do so is simply not being very bright. If the dealer or seller (if this unit is on consignment) won't allow such an arrangement, then I doubt they'll be the most helpful person to turn to after the sale. And if this shop isn't an Audio Research dealer, just who will you have to go to if you have any questions? Don't allow the lure of a high end product at a reduced price be such a strong draw that you treat this differently than you would any other purchase.

It should be quite simple, you hand them your credit card or a check as a safety net and they allow the unit to be taken from the shop for a night or a weekend with provisions for its safe return. Unless you appear to be quite a shady character, George, this is something I would expect to happen if I were selling this unit. Possibly a bit less if this is a consignment item but I would still ask for an audition in the store before I parted with cash. You assume full responsibility for any damage and the dealer is free to go over the unit when it is returned or the audition is over.

That assumes you go over the unit to make certain it is in proper operating order before you walk out of the store with it or ask for an audition in the first place. That's quite a bit of work on the dealer's part so I would expect you to reward them for their effortts on a product that isn't going to make them much profit but only serves to get them some money back on another sale. (Selling used gear is not a money maker in most instances since the dealer might be loosing another sale on a more lucrative product.) Don't frivilously take up their time. If you even think you have cold feet because of "something" a friend told you, just stop right now and think about something else. You've already talked yourself out of the product and even if you buy it you'll be thinking about how tubes have made great leaps over the last few years whenever you hear a sound you think is not quite right. In fact, you'll become acutely aware of anything you believe might be slightly off kilter. Your first high end product and it will have those alien tubes! George, if you even think you have cold feet now, save everyone the trouble, buy something with a warranty and CYA instead of asking for headaches. You've dawdled and asked for advice too much. You either make the purchase now and get it over with or you walk away and look elsewhere. I always advise caution until caution turns to freezing your actions. We're headed into week three of this thread, it's time to either sh!t or get off the pot.


As far as "great leaps" in tube technology go, consider that vacuum tubes have been around for over 100 years. Music much longer than that. Just how many "leaps"
have occurred in the past few years compared to the prior 90 or the previous 500 is open to debate.

One thing is certain, AR has had a consistent concept of what music sounds like to their ears. The question should be does their concept match your own - or do you even have that concept at this point? If not, just what are you buying?

While they are not a company that introduces change just for the sake of change, they have a very consistent sound to their products. Rather than worrying about what leaps have occurred in tubes I would be far more concerned about whether the basic AR sound is consonant with my own ideas about music. Simply buying a component because it is a McIntosh, a Bryston or an Audio Research isn't IMO being very logical about how you build a synergistic system. If you are not familiar with the idea of many high quality components still not making a musical system, you shoud become familiar with the idea before you plunk down cash for a name only. It is how your system components work together that makes for a musical sound which truly transcends its individual parts. Yes, Audio Research equipment has always been a highly regarded line but that doesn't automatically make it the line you should consider.

Sh!t or get off the pot, George.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3363
Registered: May-05
I'm not sure if you were saying that dealers are more or less apt to lend out gear on consignment, but the dealers I've dealt with are far more comfortable with lending it out for an audition than a new or even demo piece. From a business perspective, it makes more sense -
Its not opening a new product and losing money because they have to sell it as open box

Its not a piece on the floor that's potentially going to be missed by someone walking in out of the blue

Giving something a once over and plugging it in to make sure it works doesn't take much time, and it certianly doesn't cost money nor lose a potential sale.

My dealers have taken an imprint of my credit card when I've taken stuff home. If I want to keep it, I give them a call and everything's fine. If I pass, I return it and my card was never charged.

All this is assuming that George's dealer is local. If its got to be shipped, that's a different can of worms.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13715
Registered: May-04
.

If the dealer is not local and George cannot possibly audition a pre amp which he appears to know very little about including the actual name of the manufacturer, ...

well, I think George can figure out what my advice would be.


.
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 850
Registered: Jun-08
Jan, got your message and understand where you're coming from; however, there are different people out there and I'm one of them, I'd like to say slow and steady... Apart from audio, it's got me pretty far. If I don't feel I'm in the know, I back off and then revisit when the time is right. I'll let an absolute great deal pass up if I'm not comfortable at the time.
Right now I'm just gathering information, I haven't taken any of the dealers time other than the initial meeting when my friend purchased another component. I'm using the forum as an additional source of info, which I believe is one of it's main purposes. If I buy then that's great, if I don't well I've learned a little more about Audio Research (yes I caught my typo on the header of this thread).
Some of us drop $1500 on a hair, some within 3 weeks of seeing something and some take up to a few model years before doing it - I lean to the latter. To each his own.
The dealer is local but not next door. I'd have to make a little trip to run the audition request by them and I wouldn't do so unless I was ready to lay down cash.
Jan, I understand you are a very informed and intelligent person with a lot of experience and as I would from my grandpa, I'll continue to glean from you as long as I can but as I have seen in the short time I've been on this forum...you really need to work on your tact. That said, back to the thread and my interest in Audio Research preamps.

I like the way Bryston sounds, I think there would be great synergy with a Bryston preamp and my 3B-ST but I'm still exploring and have not heard everything that might work in my system, hence the consideration of hybrids like the SP9 MKII.

The component is not on consignment, it was a trade-in so the store owns it now.

Stu - I appreciate you thoughts on older equipment.

Cheers.
I
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 851
Registered: Jun-08
Bye-the-way can you tell I work in risk management - my hesitation goes with my training. So it's not time to get off the pot, I'm not done mitigating my risks.

Ciao.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3371
Registered: May-05
Are you like Ruben Pfeffer in Along Came Polly?
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 855
Registered: Jun-08
LOL. Yeah Stu, I guess, I haven't seen the movie but I just Googled the storyline and I see some similarities.
Oh, for that matter, not only am I in Risk Management but my dad is a retired cop, who passed on his cautiousness.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12885
Registered: Dec-04
http://www.avguide.com/blog/audio-research-corporation-reference-2-phonostage-pr eamp?src=Playback
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 861
Registered: Jun-08
Gorgeous phono preamp. I'm not sure what level of table and cartridge would be the match for that.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12890
Registered: Dec-04
Scout, minimum, I would think.
Or a Rega P7?
Or an Oracle...

It looks like a nice pre all around, with a BIG phono!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13717
Registered: May-04
.

George, one of my functions on this forum often is to tell people what I believe they should hear. I'll bet your grandfather occassionally told you something you didn't want to hear - like don't run with scissors in your hand or walk a mile in someone's shoes before you judge - that appeared at some later date to be a good piece of advice. Or maybe not, as you say, it takes all kinds and we all tread our own path.


"If I don't feel I'm in the know, I back off and then revisit when the time is right. I'll let an absolute great deal pass up if I'm not comfortable at the time."


And how is my suggestion any different than that? I don't think you do understand where I'm coming from.

So let me explain.

If you do not feel you are in the know, I strongly urge you to get the experience required to fill your knowledge box to the brim and then some. Where I am coming from, however, doesn't involve sitting on a forum and asking for advice about a specific component. Where I am coming from starts with you taking responsibility for your own education in a field that is entirely experiential. You cannot do this hobby correctly IMO without listening, listening to live music and listening to components that claim to reproduce live music with fidelity.

You can ask about any component you can name and get a dozen or more different opinions from a dozen or more people ... and I assume you know the value of opinions - this one included. Which is one reason I just don't bother with recommendations on this forum. My opinion, like anyone else's, is not worth beans compared to your own experience. You just have to have that experience in the first place. Here's where I have more experience than you do.

You can read everything you can lay your hands on about music but until you go out and experience music, you won't have a clue as to what music is truly about. Music is a moment in time experience and one that each of us takes in with our own set of filters in place. It is, however, only a valid experience when you go listen. Reading about it can make the experience of music richer and more deeply appreciated but listening to music is done solely when music is happening in front of you. Very simple.

Contextualizing the experience of music (as it relates to selecting an audio component that suits your filter set for "realistic" reproduction) is done only by the thought process of deconstructing and then prioritizing what makes music enjoyable to you. Not what makes music enjoyable to Nuck, Frank or Nick or anyone else.

You have to do the work - you have to go listen.


IMO there is your risk and it is one you are avoiding - not knowing what sets your toes tapping, your fingers snapping or your brain shifting to another experience. The highest risk you take is not having in place those definitions of what it is about music that you value most highly and realizing what you can live without or have no concern for in the first place. Without those priorities firmly established in your own experience you are very much like a child who can't see over the steering wheel and who has no idea what pedals do what being put in a car and asked to drive on the freeway. You are flying blind and you are very likely not going to have a good outcome unless it is simply by chance.

How risky is it to rely on chance?

We risk the chance of a tornado but we don't rely on chance to get us through a tornado. We can read about the experience but until you've heard that freight train coming down the street you don't know about tornados.



So, just in case you thought I was advising you to rush out to buy something without all the information in place, I was not. I was in fact advising you to step back and assess your current risks, the greatest risk being not knowing enough about what tasks you want a new pre amp to perform. Not what tasks Nuck, or Frank or Nick want a pre amp to do but what do you - the potential listener - want a new pre amp to do in the context of your priorities for music and then within your own system.

I am therefore giving you the same advice I would have given any prospective client, know what the job is and then realize what tool will best perform that job. Let's say you have a job that requires a hammer. If you were going to re-roof your house, you'd be in a tough situation taking a tack hammer up there with you. If you were building a picture frame, you'd have a higher risk of failure using a 16oz. claw hammer. Now I would guess your grandfather might have explained why that would be.

And an explanation to know your priorities and your needs would have been where you start with your experience with hammers. But darned if one day you didn't need to pull and then drive a nail and all you could find was that ol'roofing hammer. Well, it's your experience with what a roofing hammer does to the finish of a nice piece of soft wood that gives you the information required not to botch the job a second time.


You can read about it and ask friends about it and consider all your risks but it finally comes down to you doing something that teaches you about it that counts. You can ask about a pre amp and ask about a fair price and ponder and gather information but until you have the experience with live music that provides the basis for your use of a pre amp, you haven't done squat. Forget about the "fair price" and forget about what a friend tells you about tube technology - they are just reasons for getting cold feet and they get you nowhere. Know for yourself what is required for the job and then go find the right tool. If you reach the point where you are comfortable with the risk you assume, the risk is minimized. If you know what you need to know about music, you can make the right decision about a pre amp.

I really have been around other folks in your same situation and they want to take their time and fill in all the blanks. But they miss the point of filling in the gaps. They gather the wrong information and still have blanks where it counts. And they wait and they wait and they still never have the right information because they don't have the right experience in the first place.

You don't have to wait for the "right moment" to go ask for an audition. That isn't what I said at all. I said go listen. And go with a set of priorities that are well fixed in your mind as to what tool will suit your job. Surely be open to changing your opinions but go - for godssake just go. Stop talking to other people about this and go listen. You might learn something from the experience of listening. Very simple.

Maybe you'll learn the AR SP9 isn't for you. Maybe you make that decision based on your own priorities or maybe you'll make that decision based on what you realize are your lack of priorities when you sit down and listen to a few other pre amps and you can't really determine which would be the right tool for your system because you're not really clear on your priorities. I don't know, George, but I do know you cannot experience the Audio Research SP9 by talking about it for three weeks on a forum.


I don't know what your prioities are but what I'm telling you is the riskiest thing you can do is to start thinking, "I need a new pre amp", before you've identified what you need that pre amp to do. After you've established that for yourself - not based on what you see others on this forum buying or saying but for yourself - then you need to go out and do the research that comes from listening. Listening is going to get you where you want to go in this pursuit, not talking about it. Know what you want, know what you need and then know when the time is right to do the job. Risk minimized. Very simple.

It's not brain surgery or rocket science. It's pretty simple stuff that IMO you are making much more difficult than it needs to be because you are going about this as a risky adventure. There's no risk involved if you know what you want and what will get you there. If you walk away, you'll have walked away for a good reason - not because you were so adverse to risk that you let something pass you by but because you knew whether or not to act.

Tactful or not, George, from what I've seen of you on this forum I wouldn't hire you for risk management of my company or my money. As far as hifi is concerned I see you as too concerned about all the wrong things and too afraid to make wrong decision while not trusting in your own knowledge and not fully aware of how to acquire that knowledge.


I fully expect you to disagree, George. When I tell someone something I think the need to hear, they often don't want to hear it. I expect you to give me some reason for why you aren't doing what it takes to gather the experience required to make this decision. LIkewise, when I tell someone something I think they need to hear there's always a reason why someone is not doing something. That's the risk I take when I post this stuff.



.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12897
Registered: Dec-04
When you post this stuff on what, Scotch?

As you posted your appreciated dictorum of sales virtues in the best of faith, then followed with a bit of a disingeous disrespect, JV, I think you are out of line, and banished for one day.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13718
Registered: May-04
.

I don't see any thing "disingenuous" or disrespectful in what I posted. I am trying to be as frank and straight forward as possible. How that could be perceived as disingenuous I don't know. Disrespectful? Of who or of what?

Explain how telling anyone to go listen and experience music in order to form their priorities or to clarify what might suit their needs is either disingenuous or disrespectful.



.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2310
Registered: Nov-05
Jan, what makes you think he hasn't? I think your advice is quite right. However, it's a bit impractical for most people to find the enormous amount of time required to research the numerous amount of componentry that's going to get them close to a real musical experience - let alone finding such stuff without having to scour the continent. You have the years of experience so you certainly have a head start in this regard but others believe they can shorten the process by asking for advice. And the best advice is exactly what you say: use your own ears.

However tact isn't your strong suit and those who don't know that are learning.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12902
Registered: Dec-04
While I appreciate your up front and largely successful sales technike that got you fukall(cept happy buyers), I just think that you might back off the guy a little bit.

Getting all pissy with newbies like me ain't helping, ya dig?

I ain't Jones'in, don't Bogart
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13720
Registered: May-04
.

What make me think who hasn't done what? What makes me think George hasn't heard the SP9? He said he hasn't.

"Given that I have not heard this specific pre-amp, I've now got the cold feet...unless I can get it for a good price. Then I could always sell if it didn't work out."


Maybe I'm reading this wrong or maybe i just don't get how this works anymore. You don't bother to listen to anything but only consider whether you can get it at a good price. Then if it doesn't work out, you sell it.

I've been doing this long enough to know this isn't new, it existed when there were only mail order warehouses that undercut dealers, but it seems to have taken a new direction with this forum and with the whole internet sales thing. Just buy it if the price is right. Then sell it.

Shopping by price and by name seem to have replaced listening and in some cases even thinking.



So you agree with what I said but find fault with what I said. I don't know where you found me saying anyone should take "the enormous amount of time required to research the numerous amount of componentry that's going to get them close to a real musical experience - let alone finding such stuff without having to scour the continent."


I said go listen to the SP9.


Stop getting advice from people who haven't heard the SP9 and go listen for yourself, George. Isn't that exactly what I said? So scouring the country is not advice I would give. Quite the contrary, I would suggest scouring the country is just another device that keeps you from acting when the time is right because you are always looking for what is better. You become risk adverse because you are afraid of making the wrong decision. I don't need that any more than any salesperson "across the country" needs that. My advice is, "Know what you want, know what you need and then know when the time is right to do the job."

I think you need to read my post again, Rantz.



As to my "years of experience" that's what got me compared to George's grandpappy, isn't it?



Nobody needs years of experience and I'm not suggesting that either. What I have had that is different from most is that I was in a position where I felt I had to have some priorities and I had to be pretty certain what they were and I had to be able to articulate them to a client. Other than that I had some time spent in front of live music and that helped me form those priorities rather quickly. My advice to many clients was they should go listen to some live music before they spent some money. I still think it's good advice if you want a decent system.

And, if you look at any of my posts over the years on this forum, that's what I have suggested to anyone interested in asembling a good sounding system that has sufficient synergy to allow all the components to work toward the same goal. So I really don't know where or how my years of experience make anything I've said to George "disingenuous" or "disrepectful".


I've said what I always say, go listen to live music to form your priorities and then go listen to audio components with those priorities in your head. Be flexible in your opinions but go listen with priorities in your head.



But go listen.


That seems to be vastly misunderstood here.




Using "your own ears" is not what I have suggested. As a matter of fact I tend to think that's a lousy idea. Like I said, read my post again, Rantz. I'm suggesting George or anyone else use their experience as their guide. Music is an experience, you can't get it reading about it or asking other people about it. So go have the experience.


Using your "ears" is just the lazy way out of saying you don't need experience or priorities. It's the lazy way of saying gather your information from people who haven't heard the component and don't hear what you hear. I kind of think putting together a very good system requires a bit more work than that.

Here's exactly what I said to George, "If you know what you need to know about music, you can make the right decision about a pre amp."



I don't see that as telling anyone to rely only on what their ears tell them without any other reference. I've sold and demonstrated gear to too many people who have relied only on their ears and their ears would tell them when something sounded like their car hifi. If that's what someone wants, that's their business. But I thought the idea here was to get better advice than that.

And that's what I gave, the best advice I think George needs to hear at the moment.

If he doesn't want to consider it, he can put it where he puts all the stuff his grandpappy tells him.



As to my lack of tact ... yeah, well, we all bring our own personality and pecadilos to this forum, don't we?



.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13721
Registered: May-04
.

Nuck - I don't see an explanation of what was "disingenuous" or "disrespectful" in that post. I guess you couldn't come up with anything, huh?

I do see a few more insults that I think are pretty unwarranted and certainly uninformed. I gave George my advice, if you don't agree with it you can say so. I don't see that either.

What I don't think you should be doing is tossing out insults at me.


You've talked to a few of my "unhappy" buyers, have you? You think this was all just some "fukall" that I did for 25 years? Hmmm?



You know, Nuck, I think your last sentence says what matters here. Your posts have become more and more incoherent over the last year and this " Getting all pissy with newbies like me" ain't helping.

Ya dig?



You don't make any sense anymore, Nuck, and I'm saying that as a friend. I read what you post and I don't have a clue what you meant to say or why you say some of the things you say. And it's getting worse.




And I really don't like being insulted without provocation and without any explanation and particularly by someone whom I considered to be a friend. I really don't like being insulted by a friend.


Why don't you reconsider all this stuff and try this again after you've had some coffee.


A lot of coffee, Nuck.


.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12910
Registered: Dec-04
I got the first response that I expected, Jv, thats what I was looking for, good post.

I didn't mean for it to get personal, bud, it just wound up is all.

The fukall was the $$, not the experience that I meant, when sometimes people just don't listen to good advise, thats what I meant.

Poorly worded perhaps, call off the dogs, my friend.

I don't diss my friends in public, that's bush league.

I just be standing up for the betterment of the forum and continued betterment of all concerned.

It was a poke in the ribs, JV.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2314
Registered: Nov-05
If you are not familiar with the idea of many high quality components still not making a musical system, you shoud become familiar with the idea before you plunk down cash for a name only. It is how your system components work together that makes for a musical sound which truly transcends its individual parts. Yes, Audio Research equipment has always been a highly regarded line but that doesn't automatically make it the line you should consider.

Know for yourself what is required for the job and then go find the right tool.

Where I am coming from starts with you taking responsibility for your own education in a field that is entirely experiential. You cannot do this hobby correctly IMO without listening, listening to live music and listening to components that claim to reproduce live music with fidelity.

I guess I should have expected a response like that Jan, but read your own posts. Cheers and try some decaf.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13726
Registered: May-04
.

Yeah, you really should have expected that response since you're wrong about what I posted.


Sorry, Rantz, I don't see what you see and I did not intend whatever it is you are implying I said. What in that section do you take exception to? What are you reading that I didn't intend? What's lacking in tact in those words? Music is something you experience and not at this level something you talk about rather than listening. You disagree with that?

You repost something I said and then claim I am at fault without any attempt at spelling out what you find egregious about what you reposted. C'mon, guy, how about a little help here with what you find offensive and why you think it's offensive rather than just saying this is some over the top rant.


But I guess I should have expected nothing more than that from you, eh, Rantz? I mean, geez, guy! Stop looking for what isn't there.



Nothing in what you reposted suggests anyone should search the globe for just the right components. I repeat - nothing. Nothing suggests this should require years of experience. I truly would expect anyone who says they enjoy music enough to want a high quality system to already have a reasonable amount of time spent with live music of some sort. I didn't insist someone must sit through the Ring Cycle before they can buy a CD player. I find something of interest in the mariachis playing at the Mexican restaurant. LIke I said, this isn't rocket science.

I just said go listen to some music and gather up your priorities. Make sure you are trying to find similar qualities in all your components. Audio Reseach has a specific sound, make certain that is the sound you want and the sound that fits with the rest of your system.

I'm not sure what else you're reading into that. How about sharing your superior insights?




Nothing there suggests George should do anything more or less than listen to enough live music to reach the point where he feels has gained his perspectives and he should then go listen to the SP9 instead of continuing to talk about it.

That's my advice. It's the same advice I've given to dozens of other people on this forum. It's the same advice I've given to more than a few clients over the years.



If you think he should take another approach, tell him what that would be rather than telling me what you think I posted because you are clearly not seeing what I actually posted.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2315
Registered: Nov-05
I'm not claiming you are with fault at anything you posted advice-wise Jan, if you read my first post correctly, in fact I said I think your advice is quite right.

Do I need to repeat that again?

(Edit) My saying "what makes you think he hasn't" referred to listening to live music" sorry, I obviously should have made that clearer

Now read your quotes I copied again - now go back to my first post and read that - then climb off your high horse sheriff and go in the saloon and have a scotch or two.

And stop it with all the horseshiit your trying to put in my mouth.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12912
Registered: Dec-04
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1176738136&openfrom&1&4
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13727
Registered: May-04
.

GoddammitRantz, I'm not Art so stop with the dance routine. You must have some reason for telling me to first have some decaf and now telling me to have some Scotch. Seems you can't even make up your mind where I should be taking my medicine. Maybe because you can't decide what I should be taking medicine for?

Maybe you should make things "clearer". Are you apologizing now? Or are you still trying to prove something that doesn't exist?

First you agree I gave the right advice then you take me to the woodshed for saying it while adding your own very weird twist on what I said and now you want to say you posted something that obviously proves your point without providing that point.



Except you have no point.



I gave the right advice - as you agreed, with the exception of how you and I rely on our "own ears". I never said anyone should scour the continent so who is putting words in someone's mouth? My years of experience are mine to own because I have years on me. If someone doesn't have those years, they have the opportunity to start collecting them now. Now that's what I said - not what you read.

I couldn't put horsesh!t in your mouth because there's no more room in your head for all the gobbledegook you're already trying to spit out.

Yeah, you should have made a few things "clearer". But you seem to want to get by with your usual technique of saying I mistreated someone without ever coming up with how I mistreated them. What? I relied on my years of experience to give the right advice? That was mistreating George?

Try to make that "clearer", Rantz.

You quoted soemthing and indicated it was damning evidence of my ways while you feigned innocence. So telll us all just how what I posted was out of line. Please, be clear this time.


And don't fall back on how I'm now mistreating you, Rantz. LIke I said, I'm not Art so that isn't going to fly. You made some wild accusation, now back it up. Explain what you meant or go whimpering off while you claim I am incorrigible - as you always do. It's getting old, Rantz. Either you have something to say or you don't.

Either you have advice for George or you don't.


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Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 10202
Registered: Feb-05
Thanks for the reference. I don't enjoy BS from anyone ...I just don't think it's worth all of this to be right. I decided awhile back that I'm not going to engage in these online battles, again just not worth it. Enjoy.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13728
Registered: May-04
.

Aww, Art, if you don't enjoy BS, why sling it?

I don't see any "battle" here. Just trying to get clarification of exactly what Rantz wants to say.

But thanks for the contribution anyway. It really, really helped.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2318
Registered: Nov-05
Jeez Jan, do I have to call The Nun or what?

My explanation of scouring the continent (seeing you are taking me so literally) is because you suggested to George something along the lines of he educate himself on what it is about listening to live music that a component can bring to him.

I simply inferred that do that one would need to scour the continent listening to different components because it's so darn hard to find any decent variety in one's locale - at least it is here and I've read where others state the same.

As I also stated previously, my only gripe with your reply to George was your tactless manner - nothing else.

Now, see how many more insults you can toss at me - they just bounce off anyway.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2319
Registered: Nov-05
I'll just add this before I go.

I've listened to lots of live music in my lifetime and still I can't really say what quality a component needs to have to bring me close to what it is about live music that might have got my juices flowing. It (the component) either does or it doesn't.

Toe tapping, fingers snapping - geez, music coming from a tinny old tranny can make me do that. It's called getting into the rythym.

Finding decent equipment here is like looking for hens teeth. That's why why I've bought some stuff on-line, but only at a price point where I can recoup my money if it doesn't do it for me. And I see no problem with that or for others to do the same. Drawing on someone's respected experience to offer insight whether or not something might be worthy of consideration shouldn't be a problem.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2321
Registered: Nov-05
Back again. There was much more I needed to add to the previous post for it to make more sense, but I'm having problems with my wireless keyboard. Nearly every time I hit a key it wants to give it a task. Frustrating!

So I can't be bothered, ignore that last post and fire away if you wish to waste any more of your time.
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 865
Registered: Jun-08
Guys, I was away for a long weekend with the family up in the Muskoka's - Bala at a friends cottage. It was very relaxing. I just got caught up on this thread and things have been busy here.

Jan, I definitely hear what you're saying about listening to live music and I've done a bit of that, though not a whole lot but much more recently. I'll consider your recommendations. I don't doubt your experience and passion for music and your appreciation and knowledge when it comes to the reproduction of "lifelike" sound in an audio system; however, your recommendations are sometimes abrasive to say the least. Direct and to the point I appreciate but curt and derogatory is not in the best interest of anyone - neither the deliverer nor the receiver. That said, I'm not here to counsel but to share and engage in a hobby and if I can bring a little happiness and encouragement to others while doing so, then that's just the better.

I've read your comments Jan and I believe I understand what you're saying and will apply what I feel is helpful. Thanks for the constructive comments and as for the more colourful remarks, I'll just ignore them. No hard feelings, not on my side.

Nuck, appreciate the link. Just adds to the fact that there are different results in application and people all have different ears. It appears also from what I've read that a little tube rolling may help to iron out the kinks on the SP9's when it doesn't at first work in a system as expected. Thanks Nuck.

M.R. - thanks.

Cheers,

G
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13730
Registered: May-04
.

Rantz, I love it when you sputter out your replies. Obviously my perceived "insults" just bounce right off of you without effect.



Your inability to be clear about what you post added to your distortion of my words is now my fault.








Geeez, Rantz. Well, at least you didn't stomp off the forum and come back under another name - this time.



.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13731
Registered: May-04
.

If you don't mind, Rantz, I'm going to use your comments to make my point.



"I've listened to lots of live music in my lifetime and still I can't really say what quality a component needs to have to bring me close to what it is about live music that might have got my juices flowing. It (the component) either does or it doesn't."


No doubt that is one approach to system building. I also suppose some people might enjoy eating soup with a fork. I can't tell since I find neither approach very logical or even mildly informed to the obvious.


But that's just me.



I have noticed, Rantz, that you also do not hear many of the improvements that have been suggested to the forum. Again, no problem and I'm not suggesting you have any worse or better hearing than anyone else. What should be taken from that is you listen in a different manner and for different qualities than do others - and I can pretty much assure everyone else the same is true for their listening skills. We all listen for different qualities and in a different manner compared to the next listener. This is one reason why reading a particular review without knowledge of that reviewer's priorities or taking the advice of someone who is unfamiliar to you is a poor way to go about system building.

That is the point I have made here and in numerous other posts over the years - and to most of my clients. That is why I seldom make any product recommendations or comment on components when someone such as George asks for opinions on how something "sounds". I've sat alongside too many other listeners to know what I hear is not always what they hear and vice versa. My priorities are not necessarily their priorities and anything I add in the way of opinion can only be meaningful as it refers to my priorities, my system and my room. And I dare say, Rantz, you and I do not share many priorities.



I cannot instruct anyone towards the single best way for them to go about assembling a decent system. I can only make suggestions I know have worked for me and have worked for more than a few others. Establishing priorities based on experience with live music is one of those techniques that has proven successful for many listeners.



So, Rantz, when you say you have experience with live music but you still cannot identify "what it is about live music that might have got my juices flowing" I then can certainly expect you to also say, " It (the component) either does or it doesn't". Your approach to buying is to compare one piece of hifi to another piece of hifi or just whether you like what you hear with no particular priorities.


That's one way to go about this hobby.


It's just not how I would have suggested going about it.



I would point out you have been through quite an assortment of components and speakers over the last few years. How many amplifiers and CD players have you owned since that first receiver you were so proud of when you and I first met on this forum? How about that turntable you just couldn't say sounded right? And you have changed out your speakers, stands? and placement, or am I mistaken?


Before you get insulted about all this and since you have upgraded your system don't think I'm suggesting you did anything wrong. This is a fairly common way to go through a dozen components in a few years time.

It's just not how I would have gone about it.

I've seen both aproaches many times and I just simply prefer my method as taught by others who also found the same approach useful.



I don't expect everyone to do as I do - you get to do whatever makes you happy and it's your time and money you are spending. I am only suggesting that there is a better way to go about choosing a final system - a way that ends up costing less and gets you were you want to be faster that a scattershot approach of just trying everything and selling stuff off as you go along.

For those of you who read Stereophile, one path is suggested in this month's opening column. Another similar technique is to know your priorities well and apply them to the sound you wish to have in your home system. A little technical knowledge of how components operate together won't hurt either though you should rightly expect any good audio salesperson to have sufficient knowledge to warn you from a terrible mistake. Unfortunately, I have to say, in this regard, my past profession doesn't always have the highest standards. So being responsible for your own basic education is still a good idea IMO.



"Toe tapping, fingers snapping - geez, music coming from a tinny old tranny can make me do that. It's called getting into the rythym."


It's called all kinds of things, Rantz. However, I seem to remember you getting all p!ssy about these things when I tried to get people to realize this way back in the days of the "How do you listen" thread. So it is nice to see you've gleaned a few tidbits from what I've said over the years - even if you think this is your original idea.



Everyone gets to choose how they go about building their system. As I told many clients, if you choose components based on how they sound against other components you'll always find another piece of hifi that does something "hifi-ish" better than what you already own - the "either (it) does or it doesn't" route. That route invariably goes through lots of equipment and lots of cash to finally arrive at the "I'm done swapping out gear" stage.

For those who are either just beginning this system building journey or find themself in the same trap of swapping gear and speakers without ever being really satisfied, there are other ways to go about this.




.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13732
Registered: May-04
.

George - I'll give you one last piece of advice.

Stop insulting people.



I only made a single professional judgement about whether I would hire you to assess the risks involved in my business or money. I did so because I haven't seen you thinking about what real risks are involved in the selection of your components. To me you are too confined to a specific way of thinking to suit my needs.

You get to choose how you go about this process and you have no oblgation to use any or all of my suggestions. I think I have been clear about why I do or do not suggest or say certain things on this forum. After that, just as you do with what your grandpappy tells you, you are on your own.

You on the other hand have now twice made judgements concerning how I post on this forum and what sort of person that makes me. You've told me I am tactless and belligerent. Neither opinion is, as I see it, what this forum is about.

You get to decide who you take advice from and who you listen to, but you really have no position to insult me with your opinion of my personality or how I post. Particularly when you have no idea who I am or what past experiences I have had with the other forum members.

Don't do it again, George. I'm surprised your grandpappy hasn't told it's rude to judge people.




Good luck with your system. I don't thnk I have anything else to add to this thread.



.
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 866
Registered: Jun-08
Thanks Jan. I'll get there with my system..with time. Cheers.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2322
Registered: Nov-05
Good on you Jan for quoting me from a post I asked you to ignore. It was taken out of context as it was not complete. I'm having a difficult enough time posting with this damn computer at present without having to reply to the inane comments from the GOD of AUDIO. And I shall not even bother to expand on the mistruths you wrote.

If you can't see what many people say about your manner, then I feel sorry for you and hope that some day you find peace. That's all between you and I. Good luck.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13735
Registered: May-04
.

GoodGrief, Rantz, quit your b!tchin'. It's always something with you. Maybe there are reasons I'm so "untactful" on this forum. Maybe you're one of them. Let's see, one time you left and came back as your father to tell us how mean we were being to poor Rantz. Why don't you leave this time and come back as a little kid who doesn't have a sucker? Whaaaaaaaaah!


Quoting from an incomplete post! Geeeeeez!



You made the post for a reason - to snipe away at me. Then you want everyone to ignore it. I didn't take you to task for what you said, I used what you posted to clarify my points. Poor Rantz, he can't make up his mind whether he wants his posts read or not.

What is your gripe about that?! This lack of clarity is a real problem for you. "Scour the continent" for good components?! Have you ever considered just what I did say? I said listen to the SP9. You dredge up the weirdest damnshit to b!tch about. Always making someone else the bad guy. You can't make a complete sentence with a real thought but that's someone else's fault?! The pre amp is within driving distance from George but you jabber about scouring the continent.


Then that's my fault too.


Get over yourself, guy. Grow some skin or something!


.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2326
Registered: Nov-05
This is only set the record straight for others visiting this thread.

From Jan's reply "Scour the continent" for good components?! Have you ever considered just what I did say? I said listen to the SP9.

Yes, but he also stated to George:

Where I am coming from starts with you taking responsibility for your own education in a field that is entirely experiential. You cannot do this hobby correctly IMO without listening, listening to live music and listening to components that claim to reproduce live music with fidelity.

If anyone has a variety of components in their area without having to 'scour the continent' they are very fortunate. That why I made that remark and it's why I asked Jan to go back and read his posts.

I stated I've listened to lots of live music in my lifetime and still I can't really say what quality a component needs to have to bring me close to what it is about live music that might have got my juices flowing. It (the component) either does or it doesn't."

What the paragraph I lost that followed that was something like this:

Live music events are certainly of value for putting together a system, but they don't tell the whole story. Most of my music are studio recordings and they can differ to live music in many ways. It also depends on what sort of music one prefers - classical vs rock, live vs studio for example. Because of varying degrees of quality in both sound and talent, it can be difficult to pinpoint what attributes in live music you'll want a component to bring to the party. For me, first of all is the sound of the instruments, does the component reproduce the character and tone of the instrument. Then does the component allow a cohesive sound where instruments and vocals are clearly followed. I find in my neck of the woods there is little choice available for auditioning so some things I had to purchase on a try it and see basis.

So apart from all those things Jan mentioned I said about him, the truth is that all I stated was his lack of tact. But once again he has allowed his poor character to surface on this forum. George said nothing to cause Jan's remarks and as always acted like a real gentleman.

It's a shame the Star of the forum can't learn from him. I'll let anyone else reading this thread judge for themselves.

As I stated, this post is for others and I will not be responding to any more posts from Jan Vigne.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13736
Registered: May-04
.

You said you wouldn't be responding to any other posts several posts back.


Whaaaaaaah! No one will give me any candy.


And I don't like Jan. But I like insulting Jan when I say I'm not going to.


Whaaaaaaah!




Do as you say and give it a rest.

.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13737
Registered: May-04
.

"If anyone has a variety of components in their area without having to 'scour the continent' they are very fortunate."



I just want you to read my posts before you get your boxers in a knot. I suggested (way back when) that George go listen to the SP9. Are we agreed on that at least? I said go listen to the pre amp you are considering.

This "scour the continent" is your idea - not mine. I've told you what I think about "scouring the continent" but you haven't let it sink in because you were so busy making ad honinem attacks towards me that you just had to keep this BS up in one more post and one more post and then one more post - all of which you said you weren't going to make. So, yeah, I think this is ridiculous.



Geeez!




Personally, I see nothing in what you have added to that post we were all supposed to ignore that would change anything I posted. You want to weinny out of something you said that wasn't too bright but as usual you are doing a pisspoor job of it.



So, with your permission or without your permission, let's consider what you said this time.


My contribution to this has been;

"You cannot do this hobby correctly IMO without listening, listening to live music and listening to components that claim to reproduce live music with fidelity."

That means stop talking about it and go listen to the SP9. Have your priorities in your mind and go listen to the SP9. If it doesn't fit your priorities, then you can move on. There's no need to waste time talking about something you aren't interested in buying.


Your position has been;

"However, it's a bit impractical for most people to find the enormous amount of time required to research the numerous amount of componentry that's going to get them close to a real musical experience - let alone finding such stuff without having to scour the continent."


Which equates to, listening will take too much time. It's toooooo haaaaaaaarrrrrrrd.



Geeeeeez!



First, I said, go listen to the SP9. To turn that into anything other than what it is amounts to an absurdity. Second, for those who do not have a good local resource for high end components, you are not alone. IMO buying components and speakers off the internet has only exacerbated the problem. So this idea that I will buy something off the internet because I can't listen to anything locally is a Catch-22 that will only get worse.

The idea of buying something simply because the price is right is missing the point all together.

If you live in the hinterlands where moose (real moose not some guy you knew in high school who you called Moose) deliver the UPS packages, then I will cut you some lack here. Ordering from a dealer with whom you have spent some time would be my first suggestion. Buying just because you got a good price is still missing the point.




More importantly I have to believe it is very difficult for those first starting in this hobby to really know what they should be buying without the experience of listening. And no matter how Rantz wants to distort it, listening is what I am suggesting. You need the experience with live music and with audio components if you want to follow the approach I have laid out.


If you like hit or miss and sell it if it doesn't work, then I am not stopping you from doing what you are going to do anyway. I don't think it's the most productive way to go about this process, but, if you want to do this that way, eat your soup with a fork. What I'm suggesting is another approach that will usually save you time and money and give you better, more consistent results. It's not a method I cooked up myself, this has been the suggested route to audio happiness for decades. I learned it and I'm passing it on. You can do whatever you like with the information and I don't see why this needs to be debated for days and days. You either learn from it or you don't. I'm not coming to your house to check.


But I have seen a lot of gear being bought and sold on this forum lately.


" Live music events are certainly of value for putting together a system, but they don't tell the whole story. Most of my music are studio recordings and they can differ to live music in many ways. It also depends on what sort of music one prefers - classical vs rock, live vs studio for example. Because of varying degrees of quality in both sound and talent, it can be difficult to pinpoint what attributes in live music you'll want a component to bring to the party. For me, first of all is the sound of the instruments, does the component reproduce the character and tone of the instrument. Then does the component allow a cohesive sound where instruments and vocals are clearly followed. I find in my neck of the woods there is little choice available for auditioning so some things I had to purchase on a try it and see basis."



What whole story is not being told by live performances and your experience with them? You tell me you judge components by whether your foot taps. Well, you had to have a reference for that didn't you? You got the idea from somewhere, didn't you? And you know whether your foot taps at live music events, don't you? Now, the question would be, do you know when your foot might not tap when listening to music? Do you realize what would be the cause? Do you tap your foot to Vivaldi? And how important is that to you? You either establish the priority or you don't.

You listen for the "sound of the instruments" - well I admit I don't have a clue what that really means and if you can't do better than that for an explanation then your lack of clarity is working against you, not the live experience. You listen for the sound of the instruments? What? to hear whether they are there? To hear whether the guitar player really is playing a guitar? There has to be more to it than just listening for the "sound" of the instruments. And that means you are forming concepts of how things sound in a live music experience. So denying you are not doing so is BS.

If you're listening for the character and tone of the instrument, you have that idea from where? You know how a Les Paul sounds before you ever heard a Les Paul? No, you had to get the idea from somewhere. You might even realize a Startocaster sounds different than a Les Paul. Things do not exist in a vacuum.

Yes, you can buy audio components without knowing a LP and a Strat sound different. But knowing that information from your own experience will make choosing the finer points of two audio components a much simpler task. And in the world of high end audio, the differences are often not glaring. You are often selecting between plain vanilla ice cream and vanilla ice cream made with real vanilla beans. If you don't care about the difference, then any ol'vanilla ice cream will do, close your eyes and pick one. If you do care, then it behooves you to know the difference - to experience the difference.

Because if you are listening for the components that portray a particular set of qualities as you have experienced them in a live music setting, then you need that experience before you can judge the audio component.

If you are happy with Spaghetti Warehouse dinners, then don't worrying about experiencing the taste of fresh globe basil, soft neck garlic and San Marzano tomatoes. If you wish to develop an ear for the finer points of high end audio, then you have to experience them in a live music setting. If you will buy a pair of Italian loafers a size too small because you got a good price, then you go ahead. If you want to experience why Italian loafers are prized for what they are, you won't be concerned abut the price so much as it seems people are with their audio components. If you are comfortable with your experiences with music informing you in your decisions about audio, then price becomes secondary to the quality you are buying.

Everyone gets to decide what level they are at and where they want to take this hobby. I am trying to raise your expectations. If you don't want them raised, that''s your decision.



This BS about live and studio recordings is another smokescreen to justify not knowing or not wanting to admit you know what you are hearing in a live setting. Live music can provide you with more than the few qualities Rantz has notated. I can't teach you what those are, you have to experience the music and learn them yourself. As the zen teacher suggests, you have to empty your mind to what you already know and learn to experience what is in front of you. But, if you're taking in a bunch of albums and asking for the system that makes them all sound the most like the studio monitoring system in Abbey Road's Studio C back in 1979 when that is not where or when they were recorded, ... let's just say again, you've missed the entire point.

And the point is to stop talking and go listen. Listen to music and listen to audio when you have the opportunity. This past Sunday I attended a free concert of chamber music and then had my choice between two other cheap concerts that night. I do that about once a month. I mentioned the mariachis in the restaurant the other night. Listen to what is around you at every opportunity. Music and sound are all around you if you listen. If you listen, you can learn something. Listen to the experience and stop making excuses for why "Live music events ... don't tell the whole story".

Listen to audio components every now and again. You don't have to spend your life scouring the continent. But you need to listen. You need the experience. You need to know what you are listening for. And you need to know when you have found it and when you are merely choosing between Madacasscan vanilla beans from the North or South gardens. You need to know that one piano doesn't sound like another piano anymore than one guitar sounds like another guitar or one space doesn't sound like another space because getting that right is what high end audio is all about and knowing why those instruments and rooms don't sound alike is what you are after.

And most of all, you need to realize your foot is tapping to that AM radio that is getting the basics right when it has no soundstage, imaging, deep bass or high treble.


And if you don't want to use that method, then you are free to go on your merry way and find your own method. I'm telling you how I was taught to listen. If you just want to buy stuff and sell it if it doesn't work, that's your business.


Good luck.



.
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 775
Registered: Dec-07
"And most of all, you need to realize your foot is tapping to that AM radio that is getting the basics right when it has no soundstage, imaging, deep bass or high treble."

Ahh, the thought of A/B'ing a $5 transistor radio against a 78-rpm record player with 5-cent phonograph needles and scratched pre-war records. The sheer musical bliss......like simultaneously listening to a Nelson Rockefeller speech, scraping my nails across a blackboard, and chewing aluminum foil. Those were the days...
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13740
Registered: May-04
.

Don't knock those 78's, Neil. There's plenty of good music to be had in those grooves and none of it compressed, over-dubbed, multi-tracked or any of the other BS that exists in a new recording made on a 128 channel mixing board for release on YouTube.

And let me know where I can pick up some of those 5-cent needles, would ya? Last time I replaced my stylus on my mono system it set me back more than the price of a Baby Ruth.


.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12931
Registered: Dec-04
2'38" keeps your feet moving, for sure!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12932
Registered: Dec-04
Don't sit down, just dance.
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 786
Registered: Dec-07
"And let me know where I can pick up some of those 5-cent needles, would ya? Last time I replaced my stylus on my mono system it set me back more than the price of a Baby Ruth."

LOL. You are obviously using the high end stuff. I think the needles we used can in a bag of 25. The last time I looked at 78s, there was so much dust on them I wasn't sure there were any grooves. You had to blow the dust off to see what the recording was. Too bad they did not survive one more move in retrospect.
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