Speaker Cables?

 

New member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 2
Registered: Feb-09
Have new EPOS M12i's. Using some old Linn cables. Not bad, but wondering if upgrading could help. Can anyone recommend some cables that wont break the budget?
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 549
Registered: Jul-07
Scroll down in the Speaker section and you'll find several speaker cable discussions that should give you some ideas.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 9349
Registered: Feb-05
Stay away from any cable reputed to be bright...

Chord Carnival Silver Screen Biwire or Chord Rumour 4 seem to work well in most systems and with most interconnects.


You still won't conjure up much life from that Intek amp. I had both the M12i's and the Linn Intek (not at the same time).

What seems to be the problem Rick? what are you looking for from the system that you are not presently getting?
 

New member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 3
Registered: Feb-09
Art, I appreciate your wisdom and response. I have read a lot of your postings and you have a very keen insight to this stuff. Life is getting better with my recent upgrades. Had to stay on budget and added a NAD C545BEE CD Player (Very crisp and Fluid)and thanks to Galen Carol here in town have tried a Sim Audio i-1 (Wonderfully sweet acoustics) and now a Creek Evo integrated. The added watts of the Creek have opened up my new Epos even more and I cant wait to hear them after break in. My only concerns now are that the Epos occasionally get overwhelmed on some bass sounds and can be too bright on some of the higher tonal sounds. Obviously I know I have limitations given the speaker and ultimately what i paid for them. My stands are solid and sand filled so they are not a weak point. I would say at this point, my speaker cables are the only thing that I will go crazy enough to spend money on. Naturally after I purchase the Creek. Unless you can suggest a better pairing for my Epos?
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2403
Registered: Feb-07
Most people here know I'm a fan of Blue Jeans cables. Give 'em a try Rick. They're so cheap that if you don't like them, you can use them for a clothesline or some tie-downs for your car.

The Epos bright Art?
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 9353
Registered: Feb-05
Rick the I had to trade in my M12i's due to brightness...they literally made my head hurt within minutes. Mine were the first version...they were awful. There is still much complaining online relative to brightness with the recent incarnation. I thought that you still had the Linn Intek which is in your profile...time for an update.


Blue Jeans makes nice cable for the dough however I don't recommend them for really nice systems..except for now. I have to concur with Dave. Try 'em...they are pretty much all that stands between you and selling the M12i's IMHO.

The Epos are bright and there simply is no way I know to tame it...the Blue Jeans may just be low enough in openess and resolution to do the trick (nothing worked for me)...but in all honesty I doubt it. If you can't sell or trade back the Epos then the BJ cables are cheap enough to try...hopefully you've already tried to deaden the room a bit if it's lively.

At work so I'll check back later and see where this is at.
 

New member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 4
Registered: Feb-09
Art and David...Thanks again for any insight you guys have to offer! Art you are right. I do have my old Linn Intek which is why I am trying the Creek Evo. I like the Creek alot so far but am open to suggestions on what to consider while staying under $1,800 dollars. Obviously I am being hyper critical of my system, but dont get me wrong. There is way more good coming out of my Epos that bad. I feel I will soon reach a happy place (I hope!) with an addition of a new amp and proper cables! Bottom line...I have champagne sound taste on a Active Duty Military Beer Budget!
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2411
Registered: Feb-07
Just a thought Rick, if you really like your NAD CD player, why not try out a NAD integrated to go with it. This will be a step down perhaps from the Creek, but this way you can stay on budget and have a synergistic system.
 

New member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 5
Registered: Feb-09
David. That's an interesting thought! Problem for me is that having already heard higher end sound, I may not be able to go backward so to speak. I'm willing to spend more for an amp for reasons I'm sure you already know. Perhaps finding the warmest sounding amp is the key. Does this automatically mean tubes. I think for me staying with an integrated will have to be the way to go.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2412
Registered: Feb-07
Agreed. Nothing wrong with sticking with an integrated.

I don't think you need to go tubes to get that warm sound. A have a McIntosh solid state and it has that nice smooth Mac sound. Mind you, I blew the budget on it.

If you want to go tubes, I've heard lots of good things about Grant Fidelity:

http://grantfidelity.com/site/catalog/50/integrated_tube_amplifiers

As well as Jolida:

http://www.marketworks.com/storefrontprofiles/deluxeSFshop.aspx?sfid=78796&c=118 193

I can't speak to these personally cause I've never owned them. Might be worth investigating.
 

New member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 6
Registered: Feb-09
David. Thanks for the information. On those Blue Jeans Cables, do I order directly from their site?
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2413
Registered: Feb-07
Yes. I have the BJC Ten White on both my 2 channel and HT systems. No need to order them terminated (they're cheaper unterminated).
 

New member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 7
Registered: Feb-09
David..forgive me for being a novice, but does that mean I'm putting the bare wire directly into my amp and speakers?
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2414
Registered: Feb-07
Yup. You can order spades or banana plugs from BJ and use these on the end, but they're unnecessary. Arguably bare wire is best anyway.
 

Silver Member
Username: Lamcam

Orange County, CA USA

Post Number: 160
Registered: Nov-07
Try tube. I just bought the Rogue Audio Cronus to replace the Pathos Classic One. They are not day and night but I like it very much.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3239
Registered: May-05
Creek owns Epos, so there should be a good synergy there.

Cables make a difference to my ears. I wouldn't call them night and day, nor have I ever heard them make or break a system. If they're used as tone controls (taming the brightness in this case) two things come to mind -

The cables are doing something wrong. Either the current ones or the ones being auditioned.

The system isn't the right system for you. No cable will ever make the system perfect.

A lot of people have tried to use cables as tone controls and failed.

I'm not trying to start a cable debate. Most of us here are on the same page when it comes to them. I just think that people generally tend to put a bit too much emphasis on them. I look at them as the final fine tuning a system that's 99% there. In the whole grand scheme of a system - component matching, speaker matching, speaker placement, room acoustics, and so on - wiring is the smallest bit IMO. If the system doesn't sound right to begin with, no cable will make up for it.

Just my opinions. I'm sure others will disagree.
 

New member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 8
Registered: Feb-09
Stu. Thanks for your insight! I'm certain I'm being guilty of nitpicking my ever improving system. I will probably go with the Creek Evo although I am curious about the Jolida Tube Stuff. Another day maybe. The last thing I will do is upgrade my speaker cables by taking David's advice above.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13485
Registered: May-04
.

"Arguably bare wire is best anyway."


A bare wire connection is the best for sound quality as it places the least amount of material between the amp and cable. However, not all amplifier and speaker connectors - typically five way binding posts - are capable of a gas tight connection and therefore a spade lug makes sense.

Banana plugs were meant to be used for temporary connections and have no place in a high end system. When judging connectors think about the security of the connection and the total area of contact any one connection type offers over another.

I would suggest "tinning" your heavy guage bare wire ends is not the best idea unless you can afford a solder pot. Even then, tin is not the best conductor, nor is lead. Both are the major components in electrician's solder. Even with silver content solder the extent of the silver is seldom more than 4% total the rest is made up of lower quality metals.

The idea here is dissimilar metals are undesirable in a good connection and it's best to have as few materials in the joint as possible. If your connectors are the typical gold plated posts, you aleady have brass, nickel and a few other things to contend with beneath the gold plating. You can say, "To heck with it, it's already screwed up", or you can try to make the best of the situation.


Yes, solder is obviously used in the construction of equipment, it is indispensable in that application. However, you have a choice when it comes to your own connections. I would favor bare copper or a crimped spade lug in this application. The correct tools for either are inexpensive and easy to use. You can clean the spade when it becomes oxidized or you can strip back the insulation to find clean copper in the bare wire. If you make the connection properly and the connector provides a gas tight connection, you need not concern yourself with oxidation of the connection.

Tinned 14 AWG wire will not compress to make a good large contact area connection as will a spade or bare wire. You will have less contact area with the tinned wire which is less desireable. Certainly, if you do not know how to make a good solder joint when using 10/14 AWG cable and spade lugs, this is highly undesireable since a good crimp is always preferrable to a bad solder joint. If you do not understand how to achieve a good, clean solder joint, a crimp type connection with the spade is IMO preferrable to soldering globs of junk into the cold soldered connection. If you do not understand how to make a good bare wire connection or your connectors do not allow such a connection, use crimp type spade lugs.

Tinning wires is IMO only a second best choice if you know you cannot make a decent connection without strands of wire exposed. But without a soldering pot and good soldering skills and equipment you'll often expose wire further inside the insulation to oxidation, again not a good choice given all the others. If that's the case, either you need to move the equipment so you can make a better connection, use a crimp type spade lug to provide a large contact surface or get someone else to properly do the job and pay for their tools and ability.

In the end, however, the difference between a well soldered spade and a well crimped spade is largely academic and you are unlikely to hear a significant difference between the two techniques. Use the spade and discard the bananas, they don't belong in a high end system, or go with bare wire.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 9356
Registered: Feb-05
I would disagree just a bit Stu. Cables are IMO a component in the system. What would be a good sounding system can be turned to hash with the wrong cables. Take for example Nordost cables with Naim gear...what was once rhythmic becomes uninteresting.

Certainly I don't advocate fixing a problem with cables but if a person has a fixed system that won't be changed then one can season to taste with cables.

Creek and Epos are of the same company however that only means good things when both are right to begin with. I have an old Creek amp with Epos ELS3's in my office and they work well together, however I have yet to find anything that the ole' 4330 doesn't work well with except possibly the Totems I had. I simply advise caution with Creek and Epos as what sounds exciting this week could sound harsh with enough listening.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13486
Registered: May-04
.

"My only concerns now are that the Epos occasionally get overwhelmed on some bass sounds and can be too bright on some of the higher tonal sounds. Obviously I know I have limitations given the speaker and ultimately what i paid for them. My stands are solid and sand filled so they are not a weak point."


How have you attached the speakers to the stands? BluTak? TipToes? Just sat them there?

Have you done any specific speaker placement procedure? Or just sat them there where they fit?

.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3240
Registered: May-05
"Certainly I don't advocate fixing a problem with cables but if a person has a fixed system that won't be changed then one can season to taste with cables."

That's exactly the point I was trying to get across, Art. You stated it better than I did. Figure out the system, live with it for a while and get to know it, then fine tune with cables.

No cable that I know of - speaker, interconnect, power - will fix an overly bright system nor an overly warm system.

Rick hasn't bought the Creek integrated yet. If they system is too bright as he says it is, he should look at a different integrated and not different speaker cables. No cable is going to keep his ears from ringing IMO. If he really wants the combo, he should look into deadening the room. Far more effective IMO.
 

New member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 9
Registered: Feb-09
Stu, Art, Jan,

Good rap from all of you! Thanks! Did all my diligence with speaker placement, stand support and solidness. Using Blu Tak underneath my speakers. I agree with the principle that I will get to know my system, fine tune as much as economically feasible and enjoy the results. Again, right now my reasonably priced system sounds outstanding in most situations! However, as all of you I'm sure already know, when our ear becomes used to such fidelity, at least in my case, I tend to create a beast within myself and start wanting more and better!

I truly appreciate all of your fine thoughts and expertise! You are a tribute to this site and to a reborn hi-fi lover!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13489
Registered: May-04
.

"Using Blu Tak underneath my speakers."


How do you kow BluTak is what they need? Have you tried anything else? TipToes possibly? Don't just assume that what works for someone else will automatically work for you.


.
 

New member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 10
Registered: Feb-09
You're right Jan!

Did not know that they needed it, but it was suggested to me and seems to be working fine. Just using a small amount which helped with providing a solid base.

By the way, I will be trying a Jolida tube amp this weekend and am anxious to see how they interact with my Epos. The Quest Continues!
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2417
Registered: Feb-07
Cool Rick. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the Jolida. You seem like a pretty savvy listener.

Which model you checking out?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 11
Registered: Feb-09
Hey David!

Galen Carol here in town is working with me and he is gracious enough to let me demo the Jolida JD 302B. It is 50 watts but If I go with Jolida I might be interested in the 502 or even the 801. We shall see! If I like how these blend, it will be interesting. I have never owned a Tube amp before.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2418
Registered: Feb-07
That's the one with the pre-outs right?

If you end up buying it, make sure you opt for the 302BRC - that's the one with the remote. Having an integrated without a remote is a hardship no one should be forced to endure.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 12
Registered: Feb-09
David, I believe you are right on the pre-outs. And, having never owned an amp with a remote and using them now, they are VERY convenient! Will pick up the Jolida on Saturday and will be sure to report. I only hope I dont regret buying the M12i's!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 13
Registered: Feb-09
DAVID!

Blue Jean Cables arrived and my Epos are now Bi-Wired! I don't believe what I'm hearing!! This is my first experience with cables and immediately my sound is now more soothing and seemingly more refined. I have decided to buy the Creek Evo and am stunned so far at the change in sound. Would not have believed it had I not heard with my own ears! More listening to be had and am grateful for all the great advise! THANKS TO ALL!!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12052
Registered: Dec-04
Sweeeeet Rick!
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2424
Registered: Feb-07
Awesome Rick! Glad to hear it. Did you end up buying the BJ bi-wire cables (the Canare, I believe...).
 

Bronze Member
Username: Sarick

San Antonio, TX USA

Post Number: 14
Registered: Feb-09
Yes David! Thanks to you, I am now a believer! Purchased the Canare and was stunned. What a new world that has opened up for me! Very happy........for now....of course.

Now talk to me about interconnects for my cd player! Another thread perhaps?
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2425
Registered: Feb-07
Pretty sure Steve uses the Canare to bi-wire his Sttafs. I'm using the 10 awg Beldens right now but I may give the Canares a try. Good stuff Rick, glad you're happy!

It probably won't surprise you that I'm using BJC interconnects too.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3249
Registered: May-05
The Canare interconnects are very close to what Bryston uses as their interconnects - at $200 per meter. The wire is the same, but the connector is different. They use a Neutrik RCA. Bryston claims that they're not very cost effective relative to companies that solely make cables. But they use them in voicing due to their very low distortion and loss, and sell them as a courtesy to their customers who want what was used in their gear's developement.

I've been tempted to make my own out of the materials. It'll cost less than half the price. I have no soldering skills, but my father who is a mechanic could do a great job and could test the connections. Maybe one of these days.

http://bryston.com/rca.html
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3250
Registered: May-05
Their XLRs and speaker cables are different. Made for them by VanDamme which is a UK based pro audio company. They're also used due to low distortion and loss.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13503
Registered: May-04
.

Cables have distortion?
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3609
Registered: Sep-04
They can do if their configuration is weird or if they have passive components in them (e.g Townshend and MIT).
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13504
Registered: May-04
.

I'm unaware of how a passive component such as a wire can "have distortion". The construction of the cable can influence the capacitance and inductance of the cable and, of course, the resistance can change- but R is a minor value in virtually any cable used in consumer audio - creating a distinct impedance within the circuit of ouput stage to input stage (load).

But that doesn't explain how a cable can "have distortion".

The amplifier could produce more distortion with a bad circuit in its loop but the cable cannot have the distortion itself. If you put a low impedance load on the output of an amplifier not meant to drive such a load, then the amplifier's distortion will increase but not the speaker's (other than as a result of the distortion introduced by the amplifier). If you place a capacitor in a circuit, and the circuit's distortion rises, then the circuit is producing the distortion as measured at its output. Take the capacitor out of the loop and hook it alone to a disortion analyzer and what result would you expect to see from a cap that caused a particular circuit to increase its distortion component? It is a passive component and can only function as a part of a circuit, not as a complete circuit itself.

To the best of my knowledge passive components cannot "have distortion". Even the MIT cables with passive components at their terminations cannot "have" distortion.

Caps can saturate as can inductors and coils. Resistors can be overloaded. But on their own a passive component can only sit there and wait for its effect to cause something to occur. Use that same passive part in another circuit and that circuit will react differently to the same passive part.



Would someone please educate me in intricacies of how a cable manufacturer could make a claim that their cables have "low distortion" and not be laughed out of the shop?


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3251
Registered: May-05
Upon reading what I was paraphrasing, I made a mistake. The cables were chosen due to their neutrality, not lack of distortion.

It semantics, as far as I'm concerned. Come up with whatever definitions you want, along with other information to make you feel and look superior. You need that validation in life, not me.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13505
Registered: May-04
.

Riiiiiight, that post wasn't meant to make you feel superior.

I don't know who put the bug up your backside, Stu, but if an adult has not told you yet, it's up to you to decide how you react to a situation. You can't spend your life blaming other people for your reactions. This isn't the first time you've pulled this BS sort of stunt with me. Why don't you just pull your head out and look around, guy? I asked a simple question. You turned it into something it was not. There were several ways you could have answered the question and seemed like a reasonable adult, this was not one of them.

You could have easily stopped at, "Upon reading what I was paraphrasing, I made a mistake. The cables were chosen due to their neutrality, not lack of distortion."

That would have ended it.

You don't say, "I made a mistake", and then say, "it's just semantics." It's not semantics if it's wrong. Now, I could have accepted "I was wrong and here's how it should read." I could have accepted it because it's obvious what you posted was wrong. I didn't jump you for that mistake. I asked a simple question. You could have posted a simple reply. But you didn't. You couldn't.


If you think you are right, then discuss it. If you have a good point to make, then I'll listen and maybe I will learn something. I learn new stuff all the time. But there's not much point in getting p!ssed that you are wrong. People make mistakes and that's to be expected on occasion. Just don't try to make it my f'ing fault that you are wrong. Grow up and say you're wrong and get on with your life without carrying a grudge around with you for years.

There are quite a few of you guys who really need to get over yourdamnself. This isn't a competition, it's an audio forum where we supposedly have mutual interests. I asked the question because the younger guys on this forum with less experience than many of us need good answers here, not something that is obviously wrong and is then left wrong. That serves no one any good purpose. What has resulted here has served the purpose of only one individual who just couldn't stand being wrong.


You're supposed to be one of the adults here, Stu. Act like it. OK?


If you get your feelings hurt by a simple question, maybe you don't belong on a forum where adults post.






.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12065
Registered: Dec-04
Some cables can induce the distortion capabilities of an amp by their charicteristics of build, assembly and choice of componants then, when introduced to the variable load of any given speaker.

Some cables do not exhibit these tendencies with some amplifiers.
Componant manufacturers tend to shy away from cables and runs that affect their products negatively.

If y'all wanna fight, come with me to fukingdivorce court and work for ME!!!
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3252
Registered: May-05
I went too far and I appologize for that. I'm not having a bad day, I'm having a bad several weeks. But that doesn't exactly make what I said incorrect. It seems like you wait for someone to make a mistake and then jump all over it. Whenever anyone has a view that differs from yours - regardless of the topic - you're all over them. That's where the majority of our arguements came from. There's only one way, your way.

There are quite a few of you guys who really need to get over yourdamnself.

Pot, meet kettle.

I'm sure you'll have a long rebuttal. Feel free. I have nothing more to say.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13506
Registered: May-04
.

Nuck is in divorce court. I've had my spouse in the hospital for over two weeks having a portion of a foot amputated and an infection endangering more than just that.


We all have bad weeks.


You apologize and then you turn around and insult me. You've done it twice now in this thread alone!

Figure this out!



There's no long rebuttal required. It's obvious you didn't get the point the first time and wouldn't if it were repeated a million times. You intend to go through life blaming your fuckups on someone else.

We all got problems, buddy, get over it.


When you get to a public place like this forum, you are not here to take your frustrations out on someone else. You are either here to have a bit of relaxation and enjoy yourself or you are here to get even with someone. The latter is not healthy. You seem unable to let go of whatever slight you feel I have intended towards you. I don't even know what it was that p!ssed you off. But you've been like this for the better part of the last two years. It's time to get over this BS.


.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13507
Registered: May-04
.

"Some cables can induce the distortion capabilities of an amp by their charicteristics of build, assembly and choice of componants then, when introduced to the variable load of any given speaker.

Some cables do not exhibit these tendencies with some amplifiers.
Componant manufacturers tend to shy away from cables and runs that affect their products negatively."



Nuck, I'm not sure what the "distortion capabilities" of an amplifier are but I think I already covered what you tried to say.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3619
Registered: Sep-04
Holy smoke Jan! I hope your spouse comes out as well as can be hoped. That's bad news.

On the cable front, a couple of questions if you please:

If the passive components in a cable, such as a capacitor, have "a lot" of power put through them, they can start to vibrate and introduce distortions of their own due to this, can't they? ('A lot' is relative to their spec obviously...)

Also, if a speaker cable is coiled up rather than laid out, the cable will act as an inductor and again, if enough power is put through it, the effect of the inductance can cause phase distortion too, can't it?

Genuine questions, not trying to take the piss or anything...sorry to have bothered...please don't shoot...
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13508
Registered: May-04
.

"If the passive components in a cable, such as a capacitor, have "a lot" of power put through them, they can start to vibrate and introduce distortions of their own due to this, can't they? ('A lot' is relative to their spec obviously...)"


I'll repeat just for clarification's sake that I'm neither an engineer nor a designer so my opinions may differ from those of others.


I'm not sure what you mean by this phrase, Frank, "If the passive components in a cable, such as a capacitor ... ". Are you referring to cables such as the MIT which contain passive networks in their terminations? Or are you saying cables are similar to capacitors? That is very much the thinking among those who distinguish different sonic qualities between cables - that they are in many ways not much more than unrolled capacitors.

In either case I cannot imagine a cable used in consumer audio that could have sufficient amounts of power passed through them to induce any sort of saturation of the wire itself or of the dielectric to such a degree that "distortion" as we commonly think of the term would set in.


We can argue that there might be a cable manufacturer who suggests their minimalization of this or that "distortion" is at heart of their newly discovered cable design*, but that might be stretching the point considering how many different theories have been presented for why cables "sound different". The only response I would have here is that if there were a single right answer or a dozen right answers to why cables affect sound quality, then the cable wars would be over. We would know how to measure the effects of a cable and we would all design cables exactly the same way. Which would put a fair number of companies out of business. If cable "distortions" make a good story on the sales floor, then I would use them as needed to encourage a client to try higher quality cables. But, though I hear vast differences between some cables, I tend to think we need to be a bit careful in how we explain those unknown, unmeasurable differences to a client or even to ourself.

At the ic level a few volts with virtually no current is passed. At the speaker level an 18 AWG cable is still dealing with minimal voltage in home audio applications when you consider it has been used for decades to wire a 120/240VAC table lamp with a reasonable amount of current draw. If you are talking current through the cable, consider how much current your amplifier outputs on a continuous schedule compared to the continuous current draw of something like a toaster. Then consider the difference in wire gauges between those two devices. Modern home audio cable design - along with an appeal to the testosterone driven consensus that if a little is good then a humongous amount must be better - has supplied high end equipment with cable gauges that most reasonable engineers would say is well beyond sufficient for their electrical "power" requirements.


"If the passive components in a cable, such as a capacitor, have "a lot" of power put through them, they can start to vibrate and introduce distortions of their own due to this, can't they?"

I have no idea how much "power" you would have to generate through a speaker cable to make it vibrate. I would agree it would certainly be "a lot" and well beyond the limits of most home audio equipment. Home audio systems don't generate that amount of power on a steady state basis. I suspect the insulating material of the cable would begin to break down if there were that much power passing through the cable and then your problems would be many and not those stricly associated with distortion.


"Also, if a speaker cable is coiled up rather than laid out, the cable will act as an inductor and again, if enough power is put through it, the effect of the inductance can cause phase distortion too, can't it?"


The admonition against coiling wires does infer they will act as inductors though the admonition gernerally refers to the high frequency losses inherent in inductors. My first question in this case would then be; is the issue one of the cable being misused or is it inherent in the cable? If you're now using the cable as an inductor (whether through intention or not), is the cable itself to blame any more than the actual wire which is wound into an inductor. If you unwind the inductor, what does it become? Do you see what I'm saying, you can't take a case where you use one thing and turn it into another and then blame the first for the faults of the second.

Phase "distortion" is not a real term as far as I know when referring to inductors. The signal passing through an inductor is shifted in its electrical phase that is true. However, what emerges is not distorted in its relationship to the input, it is simply altered in phase. The best analogy I can think of would be to look at a photograph right side up and then turn it 90 degrees to one side. The photo is still the same photo with no distortion to its image. That would be the equivalent to electrical phase shift resulting in the action of a capacitor or inductor.


*There has been a good argument made for "hysteresis distortion" resulting from the conventional construction methods of consumer audio cables. Hysteresis distortion is, to my knowledge, almost exclusively inferred to inductors and their core saturation. I don't believe everyone would agree that cables can suffer from this condition and I would suggest this still goes back to my original idea that what occurs in a cable can only be seen in a broader view of what ultimately is seen in the circuit in which the cable is used. This is not, as I see it, an exclusive function of the cable but one of the interaction of passive cable and active amplifier circuit.


.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12077
Registered: Dec-04
I wish you both the very best Jan.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2148
Registered: Nov-05
Sorry to hear Jan, all the best to you both.
Life can be a bugger sometimes.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13509
Registered: May-04
.

Thanks guys. I appreciate the sentiment though I didn't post to get any response, just to say we all have bad days and weeks and years occasionally. This forum is a place to forget that and be somewhere else for awhile.

Things are going better and I hope they stay on track. Thanks again.


.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

NY/CA USA

Post Number: 867
Registered: Mar-04
Good to hear Jan. Best to you both.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2436
Registered: Feb-07
Best of luck Jan. Hope everything turns out ok.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13510
Registered: May-04
.

Maybe we should offer some sympathy to Nuck and Stu also.









Group hug!



.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3624
Registered: Sep-04
LOL, group hug indeed. I have to mull over a few of the things you said Jan. There are places where we differ in view I think.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12084
Registered: Dec-04
wait, let me have a quick shower...






































after the hug.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2452
Registered: Feb-07
LOL! We like you just the way you are Nuck.

Funny smells and all.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12090
Registered: Dec-04
Well that was interpreted in a different way than I intended.

But what the heck.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13511
Registered: May-04
.

What the heck!




Group hug!!!!


.
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2152
Registered: Nov-05
There's no way I'll be part of a group hug before everyone takes a shower. I might catch audiophillia or something.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2453
Registered: Feb-07
Is it contagious?
 

Gold Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 2154
Registered: Nov-05
It's a real sickness!
And very contagious I'm afraid.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13513
Registered: May-04
.

Bummer.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3626
Registered: Sep-04
OK, here we go:

By passive components I did mean the sort of passive networks in MIT cables as well as others. I did not mean that cables are merely capacitors or unrolled inductors, although they do have elements of each. After all, Goertz cable is highly capacitive (by comparison to most cables) and can cause certain amplifiers (such as older Naim amps) to go into oscillation. That said, I was thinking more of the in-line networks by the likes of MIT. These have components which need to take relatively high power thanks to the higher current requirements of speaker cable. After all, if an amp can send 10 amps down a speaker wire (that's relatively conservative) and typical voltage across speakers is of the order of a few volts then the power handling of the cable needs to be in the order of 50W or more. This may not seem like much but it is a fair amount and can cause the components in the network to vibrate and introduce distortions of their own - distortions in the classic sense that the signal on the way out is not the same as the signal going in.

Furthermore, you seem keen to quote steady state figures, but most distortion effects are caused by impulse signals - i.e. those with a large change in value over a small period of time. Once a component is running in a steady state scenario, it's relatively easy to design the circuit to work within that state and therefore dial out the distortion characteristics of the components (because you're well within their performance envelope). However, music signals down speaker cables vary significantly in power during the music program from anything under 1W to many tens and occasionally hundreds of watts, even if the latter is for just a split second. As the power rises and falls, the various components in any circuit, including the passive components in both speaker cables of the MIT ilk vibrate at resonant frequencies and this vibration usually carries an electrical component to it in the output signal, which is a distortion. Passive crossover components in speakers are of a similar type and spec and they cause as much or more distortion of the signal for the same reasons.

A coiled up speaker cable will act as an inductor, generating a magnetic field which causes what I called phase distortion. To me, phase distortion is a distortion of the original signal where high frequency components of the signal arrive at the end of the inductive component before their equivalent low frequency components. The actual components themselves have not been distorted in shape, but the relationship between them has been altered, and this is as much a distortion of the signal as anything else. The analogy you used of the photo is just as effective. Imgine turning the 6x4 photo through 90 degrees and squeezing and stretching it to fit in the same space. Now you have fat people.

My understanding was that this kind of distortion is called phase distortion because the various frequency ranges are now out of phase by a usually small angle which affects the perceived timing of the signal. This effect is not a fault of the cable, but of how it is being used. It shouldn't be coiled. However, the extent of the effect depends on the configuration of the +ve and -ve wires of the cable as much as it is of the coiling. Twisted pair (TP) cable suffers very much less from this than paralleled (which is more common nowadays), and this is because of the subtractive effects of the magnetic fields in the twisted pair, which is why TP is so good at RF rejection.

Hysteresis distortion is never an issue in speaker cables - at least not that I've heard of. The idea of coiling up a speaker cable enough to make it into such a strong inductor that it would suffer hysterisis effects seems extremely unlikely.

I think where I differ most strongly with your view is in the steady state argument. The current draw of toasters and light bulbs is very much steady state, but the current demands of a music signal are very different. You're not looking for dynamic changes in light bulbs and toasters whereas it is precisely the dynamic shifts that you want in music reproduction - and the beter, faster you show those shifts the better the system (which is the polar opposite from light bulbs and toasters which should be constant output), and it is this difference which I feel counts for more than many people appreciate - and which causes components to vibrate and induce distortions in the signal.

I hope this is of some interest...
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13514
Registered: May-04
.

Frank, it sounds like you're trying to sell me some cables by repeating what a sales rep told you to say. The problem with that is you'll get an awful lot of people who totally diasgree with you about how cables operate. You should know I'm open to most explanations of how things might work - I use Belt devices, I have my components on isolations systems, I have my rituals - but, as I have said, I think we need to be a bit careful in trying to get others to accept that we have the one idea that clears up all this cable nonsense once and for all. I would say your ideas of how signals can create vibrations in a cable and then how those vibrations eventually distort the signal would fall into that category of selling one particular story over another story.



If we're discussing cables such as the MIT designs which place passive networks at their termination, I don't understand how you would assume these passive network components should be inferior to those used in the amplifier producing the signal. The MIT cables are not cheap and I can only guess MIT assumes the buyer of these networked cables is very likely going to attach them to a high powered amplifier. So wouldn't it make sense for MIT to use "parts" (capacitors/resistors/inductors, etc) that are the voltage/current equivalents to those inside the partnering amplifier? At the price they charge I would expect nothing less. If they didn't do this, the networks would be destroyed by the amount of power being run through them and indeed that would be very costly to MIT.


"After all, if an amp can send 10 amps down a speaker wire (that's relatively conservative) and typical voltage across speakers is of the order of a few volts then the power handling of the cable needs to be in the order of 50W or more. This may not seem like much but it is a fair amount and can cause the components in the network to vibrate and introduce distortions of their own - distortions in the classic sense that the signal on the way out is not the same as the signal going in."


Wouldn't it make sense for MIT to take the same precautions as the amplifier manufacturer to avoid any "vibrations" caused by pulsing signal strength? I'm going to guess what you've given back to me is what a competitive cable manufacturer has told you to use against the MIT cables.

While I would agree that various passive components are affected by microphonics - the introduction of resonances caused by the airborne or mechanical pick up of vibration - I am not totally convinced this occurs when an audio signal is transmitted down a cable's length or that it affects the signal by increasing "distortion" in the cable itself. However, if the situation does exist, then certain designers who believe it exists and it is a problem will accommodate such problems. The MIT networks are built on sturdy pc boards, just as in a high powered amplifier, and are, to the best of my knowledge, then potted to minimize any microphonic response to the physical actualization of the audio signal, just as in some very high quality amplifiers.

To say the cable "vibrates" due to the pulsing signal is a concept I won't say is impossible but is a "problem" I will say has not reached a level of acceptance in the broader design of consumer audio cables. Possibly you can direct me to a website that makes this claim. Then I'll decide a bit more about what I think of this matter. As is, this falls more into the story line of one of a few manufacturers and until there is a good deal of acceptance by a majority of cable designers - not the nodding naysayers who feel a wire is a wire - this remains one of those "problems" that sells a product with a good story over someone else's lesser story. I have discovered not all audio "stories" have their basis in actual fact; some do and some may, some you listen and try to make sense of or just accept, but some are really just fabrications in hope of a sale and others are ideas that have been misinterpreted by the sales staff into something they think they heard when they really did not.



I am "keen" to mention (I don't think I quoted anything) steady state requirements because that is how you judge the needs of a cable. Most cables can carry much higher "power" for short bursts, say, turn on surges or over-voltage situations, than they can over long periods of time. Therefore when assessing what cable gauge is appropriate for a situation you look at the long term draw and not the short term peak unless that short peak is well beyond the norm. In any case a 10 AWG audiophile speaker cable is, by anyone's estimation of "need", over built for what it must achieve. That's why I said look at what is attached to your toaster or clothes dryer, the cables used there are for loooooong, looooooooong term current draw (10-20 amps) accompanied by constantly high voltage (120/240 VAC). I am unaware of any consumer audio amplifier that produces such voltage and current conditions or any music signal that would require such power levels for more than a brief time span by comparison to even your toaster let alone your dryer. So, in the end, a typical "audiophile" speaker cable - one with the typical "audiophile jewelry" attached at both ends - is decidely overbuilt for its purpose. My logic would then say what might be found in a cable carrying AC voltage/current is not exactly a model for what ocurs in a consumer audio system. There are more differences than there are similarities between the two conditions of use.



"As the power rises and falls, the various components in any circuit, including the passive components in both speaker cables of the MIT ilk vibrate at resonant frequencies and this vibration usually carries an electrical component to it in the output signal, which is a distortion. Passive crossover components in speakers are of a similar type and spec and they cause as much or more distortion of the signal for the same reasons."


As I said above, I would relegate this to an "idea" of what might be a problem with audio cables. However, I believe you are now exptrapolating what occurs inside an amplifier - which has a large power transformer vibrating away - and a loudspeaker - which has undeniably large high pressure zones inside the enclosure - and then making this a similar situation for a cable which has neither a transformer attached nor is it sitting in the high pressure zone of a speaker enclosure. I won't deny this might be a problem but I have not seen it rise to the level where designers across the board are trying to eliminate vibration caused by signal pulses of audio.



Now magnetic fields are quite a different matter and one I do not competely understand - I have yet to find the person who understands magnetism well enough that they can explain it in layman's terms. The complications that arise from magnetism as created by electrical pulses in a cable are, to me, even more of a conundrum. Here theory seems to hold sway and electrical theory says many things are true that I have to think are possibly not completely true based on what I hear. But then I get back to who has the best story to tell because most EE's will emphatically tell you (and tell you and tell you and then start calling you names and insulting your mother) none of this really matters at audio frequencies.




Frank, you might prefer to call it "phase distortion" but it is "phase shift".

"To me, phase distortion is a distortion of the original signal where high frequency components of the signal arrive at the end of the inductive component before their equivalent low frequency components. The actual components themselves have not been distorted in shape, but the relationship between them has been altered, and this is as much a distortion of the signal as anything else. The analogy you used of the photo is just as effective. Imgine turning the 6x4 photo through 90 degrees and squeezing and stretching it to fit in the same space. Now you have fat people."


I have to think you are once again taking one situation and extrapolating that result to another, entirely different, situation. What you have described above with the high frequency "shift" is what occurs in a loudspeaker's crossover network. The high or low frequencies are shifted in electrical phase due to the charcateristics of a capacitor or an inductor and they exit the component shifted but not "distorted". Therefore, in a multi-way loudspeaker, depending on the crossover type and the number of networks the signal passes through, a designer might wire the tweeter "out of phase" to the woofer in order to achieve better integration of pulse response. This is not a distortion of the signal but a matter of how the signal has been shifted by passing through caps and coils.

But that doesn't change how the signal is passed through the passive component - it is shifted 90 degrees in one direction or the other (+ or -) depending on whether we are discussing a capacitor or an inductor. Now, we can cause smearing of the signal by choosing an inductor that is too small for its task and providing it with an iron core or by using a capacitor that cannot recharge at a sufficient rate, but those are cases of poor design, not a flaw in the component and neither has a relevance to cables. If you choose the component appropriate for the job, then your squeezing and stretching won't occur. The signal will pass through the component and emerge at the output as it came in other than it has shifted 90 degrees in electrical phase angle.



"This effect is not a fault of the cable, but of how it is being used. It shouldn't be coiled. However, the extent of the effect depends on the configuration of the +ve and -ve wires of the cable as much as it is of the coiling. Twisted pair (TP) cable suffers very much less from this than paralleled (which is more common nowadays), and this is because of the subtractive effects of the magnetic fields in the twisted pair, which is why TP is so good at RF rejection."


Again I think you are confabulating one thing with another. If you coil a cable, it acts as an inductor - though this does not create "distortion" and I can think of no cable manufacturer who would state their cables are immune to the effects of misuse. It doesn't matter how the cable is constructed when you coil it into an inductor. What you've done in your argument is take how the construction of a multi-conductor cable affects the overall measurements of the cable - a parallel run is higher in inductance and a twisted layering is higher in capacitance (and RF rejection) - and laid that over your concept of an inductor made by coiling speaker cable. The measurements of the cable itself do not change when it is coiled, only the final result due to a misuse of the product will affect the sound quality. To claim any effects caused by misuse is therefore inherent in a properly used cable is beyond what I can accept as a logical argument for cable distortions.



"the beter, faster you show those shifts the better the system (which is the polar opposite from light bulbs and toasters which should be constant output), and it is this difference which I feel counts for more than many people appreciate - and which causes components to vibrate and induce distortions in the signal."


By your logic then, would a cable exhibit more distortion when I played a slow cello Sontata than when I played headbanging heavy metal? Assuming the amplifier is not clipping and is well designed and executed to minimize distortions of all sorts would this also be true of the amplifier's distortions? Would a well designed amplifier operating within its limits produce more distortion with one type of music than with another?


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1878
Registered: May-06
Good grief I have been working too hard.

How did I ever miss this thread?

Hope all is well for everyone.

Frank, I'm feeling picked on since I have both MIT cables for full range and Goertz for sub-amp. (just kidding of course)

Whatever happened to our OP Rick? Magnet wire w/ or w/o pure silver makes for good ICs. Price is driven by the RCAs more than anything, for example Radio Shack $5 versus Eichmann Bullets $62 and worth it IMO.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rick_r

Tucson, AZ USA

Post Number: 92
Registered: Mar-08
JV, sorry to hear of your wife's illness. Best of luck with your situation.

JV and MW - I have not been idle! I'm about to re-cable my system - I bypassed the mag wire plans (but not before I acquired quite a bit of RS wire), and am heading down a different path. Ridulous amount of research into electrical characteristics of transmission lines. More to come in a future thread.

PS - you might want to check these $18.48 RCA IC's out. I've had them in my system for about 24 hours so far - too soon to say much about them, but for the price I had to try.

http://www.homenetworksupply.com/Home-Theater/Audio-Cables/Composite-Cables/AV50 300b04/

They also have much more Belkin of this flavor in speaker cables, HDMI, digital, component TV cable, etc. and it's all pretty cheap for 99.9997% pure copper conductors with polyethelene insulation.

This site is VERY interesting for audio cable, speaker, and amplifier information from an almost layman's view of the electrical engineering.

http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/Analog.html

For more info on distortion - Goggle "Distoration" and check out the Wikipedia info.

Cables are (mostly) time-invariant linear circuits at audio frequences, but that doesn't mean that they have constant amplitude or linear phase responses across the audio spectrum. They have resistance, capacitance, and inductance (which is what you make filters with) and the resistance and inductance even changes with frequency due to skin effect if your conductors aren't thin enough. And since they have an inherent transmission delay, the frequency dependent variance in the impedances will introduce variances in the propagation delays at different frequencies. A cable is generally distoration free for any single frequency, but a cable does distort a pass band signal to a predictably small degree. There are a lot of things that factor into the electrical characteristics, but most of the characteristics should have relatively negligle effect on an audio signal - except perhaps to what your stereo sounds like . More to come on this with the re-cable story. It's been a long haul and I am confused on a much higher plain.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3651
Registered: Sep-04
Jan

I'm not trying to sell you anything. :-)

I was not suggesting that passive network components in things such as MIT are inferior. All components, irrespective of how high a quality, are capable of introducing the distortions I mention in the 'right' circumstances. Although MIT probably do use the finest quality parts, they cannot guarantee that those parts will not introduce distortions when used. They can only mitigate the problem to the best of their abaility depending on cost.

Wouldn't it make sense for MIT to take the same precautions as the amplifier manufacturer to avoid any "vibrations" caused by pulsing signal strength? I'm going to guess what you've given back to me is what a competitive cable manufacturer has told you to use against the MIT cables.

No actually I didn't. I simply mentioned MIT since they are the most prominent manufacturer of cables with passive networks in them. As for MIT or any cable manufacturer taking the same precautions as an amplifier manufacturer, given the costs one would hope they would, but you still can't break the laws of physics - if a component can vibrate at a certain frequency, then it will. If there's no component, then there's no vibration.

I'm not sure I said the cable vibrates. I would be immensely surprised to hear that a wire vibrated as a result of electrical disortions in a circuit connected to it. I seem to recall saying the components in the network vibrated. Potting the PCB boards helps reduce this, but this is a circuit with the vagaries of a circuit and they all suffer this problem to a greater or lesser degree.

I am "keen" to mention (I don't think I quoted anything) steady state requirements because that is how you judge the needs of a cable. Most cables can carry much higher "power" for short bursts, say, turn on surges or over-voltage situations, than they can over long periods of time. Therefore when assessing what cable gauge is appropriate for a situation you look at the long term draw and not the short term peak unless that short peak is well beyond the norm. In any case a 10 AWG audiophile speaker cable is, by anyone's estimation of "need", over built for what it must achieve. That's why I said look at what is attached to your toaster or clothes dryer, the cables used there are for loooooong, looooooooong term current draw (10-20 amps) accompanied by constantly high voltage (120/240 VAC). I am unaware of any consumer audio amplifier that produces such voltage and current conditions or any music signal that would require such power levels for more than a brief time span by comparison to even your toaster let alone your dryer. So, in the end, a typical "audiophile" speaker cable - one with the typical "audiophile jewelry" attached at both ends - is decidely overbuilt for its purpose. My logic would then say what might be found in a cable carrying AC voltage/current is not exactly a model for what ocurs in a consumer audio system. There are more differences than there are similarities between the two conditions of use.

Yes, there are more differences than similarities, yet your arguments are all based on steady state when I'm arguing we should be more interested in the short term effects precisely because of the differences. Therefore there seems little point in comparing a kettle or toaster IEC cable to an amplifier IEC cable on the basis of the long term power needs of a toaster since the usage of the cable is completely different.

At the moment, the audiohile jewellery solution, overbuilding the cable, is the only one in use (and is sometimes counter-productive, particularly in the case of iec cables because they show a different mains resistance to the unit), but it shows that there's something else going on which we're not taking into account.

That's all I have time for right now, sorry! :-)

Frank.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12299
Registered: Dec-04
Well stated, Frank, have a good weekend.
Even with the MIT products being so successful and well used, we never hear about the cases where the cables failed to satisfy.

The passive componants in the network are of sufficient impedence to not have any theoretical effect on the amps outputs, but if so, what are the benefits?
Toaster test?

George Foreman grill, sandwich steak.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3653
Registered: Sep-04
Theory and practice - very different things...

People have fixated on the fact that I mentioned MIT cables in particular. I wasn't having a go at MIT. Their cables are undoubtedly high quality. I was simply using them as an exponent of an approach to cable manufacture.

The measurements of the cable itself do not change when it is coiled, only the final result due to a misuse of the product will affect the sound quality. To claim any effects caused by misuse is therefore inherent in a properly used cable is beyond what I can accept as a logical argument for cable distortions.

Actually, yes, the measurements of the cable do change when the cable is coiled. The cable's inductance changes and this has a direct effect on its impedance. Naturally no manufacturer is going to say that his speaker cable will work just as well if coiled up nice and tight as when laid out neatly with no kinks. What I was trying to do was to describe scenarios where you may experience different levels of performance simply because the HiFi system is such a hodgepodge of mismatched items which may be used incorrectly. It's a perfectly honest and simple mistake to coil up extra lengths of wire! Any component is capable of being misused to a greater or lesser degree - it's just what's more likely that bothers me - and coiling up wire is more likely. I'm not blaming the cable manufacturer but the unknowing customer...

By your logic then, would a cable exhibit more distortion when I played a slow cello Sontata than when I played headbanging heavy metal?

No, since what I'm talking about is the system's ability to reproduce impulse changes - leading edge attack is but one example, whether in a cello sonata or something more rumbustuous.

Assuming the amplifier is not clipping and is well designed and executed to minimize distortions of all sorts would this also be true of the amplifier's distortions?

All decent amplifiers are designed to minimise distortion, yet they differ tremendously in design. Are you suggesting they all sound the same?

Would a well designed amplifier operating within its limits produce more distortion with one type of music than with another?

Possibly, you just don't know.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13580
Registered: May-04
.


I do believe we are now splitting hairs in an effort to make a point that doesn't easily follow from the original statement.

The original statement was, "They're also used due to low distortion and loss." Frank, when I asked whether cables have distortion your comment to that was, "They can do if their configuration is weird or if they have passive components in them (e.g Townshend and MIT)."



OK, right now we've focussed on "passive components" and you've posted , "I was not suggesting that passive network components in things such as MIT are inferior. All components, irrespective of how high a quality, are capable of introducing the distortions I mention in the 'right' circumstances. Although MIT probably do use the finest quality parts, they cannot guarantee that those parts will not introduce distortions when used. They can only mitigate the problem to the best of their abaility depending on cost."


So you aren't offering; 1) any description of the "distortions" and, 2) any proof there is distortion in a passive component. You're only saying there is the "capacity" for "distortion" under the "right circumstances".

I'm sorry, Frank, but I have a more difficult time with hypotheticals than Dick Cheney does so you'll have to provide a bit more information before I can comment. What would those circumstances be and what sort of distortion would occur? Have you seen any measurements that lead you to believe totally passive components will produce "distortion" given the "right circumstances"? Say, measurements or comments directly relating to the MIT cables you mention. And how would these particular cables relate to the rest of the cable world? The passive components attached to the cable have some sort of "distortion" under the "right circumstances" and so that means the cable has these distortions? Or the passive components have these distortions?


" ... if a component can vibrate at a certain frequency, then it will. If there's no component, then there's no vibration."


I can't argue with the second half of that statement (I guess I could since the vibration would still occur just not in the missing component but there's no reason to) but in the first we are back to conjecture. First, what causes the vibration? What distortion(s) result from this vibration? Secondly, I've addressed the "vibration" conjecture with the common sense evidence that potting the passive components attached to the cable eliminates "component vibration". You seem to be making something of nothing here, Frank.

Let's for the sake of the argument say the potted components do vibrate and then you can also tell me the type of distortion that vibration would produce (THD? IM? Low order component or high order? High "Q" or low "Q"?) and whether you have any information to back up those ideas. Or whether this is merely speculative argument with no factual basis. I cannot discuss what is purely speculation based upon mere conjecture. I'm not that good.


"I'm not sure I said the cable vibrates. I would be immensely surprised to hear that a wire vibrated as a result of electrical disortions in a circuit connected to it. I seem to recall saying the components in the network vibrated. Potting the PCB boards helps reduce this, but this is a circuit with the vagaries of a circuit and they all suffer this problem to a greater or lesser degree."


What "vagaries"? I can't discuss what I don't understand when you don't tie things to actual events or situations and provide some sort of proof that you are not just BS'ing here.


"Yes, there are more differences than similarities, yet your arguments are all based on steady state when I'm arguing we should be more interested in the short term effects precisely because of the differences. Therefore there seems little point in comparing a kettle or toaster IEC cable to an amplifier IEC cable on the basis of the long term power needs of a toaster since the usage of the cable is completely different.

At the moment, the audiohile jewellery solution, overbuilding the cable, is the only one in use (and is sometimes counter-productive, particularly in the case of iec cables because they show a different mains resistance to the unit), but it shows that there's something else going on which we're not taking into account."



You have missed my point, Frank. I am saying audio cables are decidely overbuilt for their purpose. Consider the effect of a small car and a tank running over a 1" stone. How would you assume each would react?

Both the toaster cable and the speaker cable have the same sort of fluctuating (AC) voltage running through them. The difference being IMO the speaker cable has far less of it and is far more overbuilt for its purpose and therefore probably less affected by any effects of the pulsating voltage.

However, we are still hung at the point of "something else going on which we're not taking into account."

I don't have a clue what that "something else" is that would prove your argument.

Tell me. Don't just talk around it, tell me exactly what I am supposed to take into account.


"Actually, yes, the measurements of the cable do change when the cable is coiled."


Again we're splitting hairs here. Uncoil the cable and the measurements are just the same as before you coiled it. The measurements of the coiled cable are the result of the coil not of the cable itself.


"What I was trying to do was to describe scenarios where you may experience different levels of performance simply because the HiFi system is such a hodgepodge of mismatched items which may be used incorrectly. It's a perfectly honest and simple mistake to coil up extra lengths of wire!"


I don't get this, Frank. I originally asked if cables had distortion. Now you want to discuss what happens when a cable is misused. I don't see how that relates to the original question. Nor do I see how misusing the cable by coiling it affects any sort of distortion. You may want to call it "phase distortion" but that still is not correct, it is "phase shift". Wanting to call something a name that fits your scenario doesn't make it happen. I've addressed how the signal emerges from the inductor and you might want to read that again. There is no "distortion" involved. I can't argue that running a car off a cliff will not result in better mileage on the way down. But misusse isn't what the original question was about.


"By your logic then, would a cable exhibit more distortion when I played a slow cello Sontata than when I played headbanging heavy metal?


No, since what I'm talking about is the system's ability to reproduce impulse changes - leading edge attack is but one example, whether in a cello sonata or something more rumbustuous."



I assume you mean "rambunctuous". However, I don't understand what this means in the context of the discussion. It doesn't seem to lead me anywhere. Possibly you can elucidate?


" Assuming the amplifier is not clipping and is well designed and executed to minimize distortions of all sorts would this also be true of the amplifier's distortions?

All decent amplifiers are designed to minimise distortion, yet they differ tremendously in design. Are you suggesting they all sound the same?"



No, I am not. And I still have no idea where you're trying to take this. What does this have to do with cable distortion?


Would a well designed amplifier operating within its limits produce more distortion with one type of music than with another?

Possibly, you just don't know."








Really?!


.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rick_r

Tucson, AZ USA

Post Number: 95
Registered: Mar-08
Would a well designed amplifier operating within its limits produce more distortion with one type of music than with another?


No. The amplifier is designed to handle the full range of the input line voltages (2.25 volts for single ended or 4.5 volts for balanced inputs) over the full audio spectrum. All audio input signals are generally bandlimited between 5 and 25KHz. The amplifier has know idea what music is being played and could care less what music is being played - it's just trying put reproduce the voltage on the input scaled by some factor (A) on its outputs across the load presented.

To the extent that Voltage_Out(t) does not equal A x Input_Voltage(t- T), there is distortion. T is a delay factor for the signal passing through the amp and as long as it's frequency independent, does not affect the waveform.

If you amplifier lets you adjust the gain such that the amplifier is trying to generate an output voltage that exceeds its power rails and starts clipping, then you are not running it within its linear operating limits and you will get a great deal of harmonic distoration (think of turning sine waves into square waves - sine waves have one frequency - square waves have harmonics going up indefinitely - but band limited to your ampliifiers passband). These frequencies were not in the original signal, but they are now in the output and very noticeable - my Marshall is quite good at this if you're into distortion. Even before you hit the rails, you may be pushing the transisters (or tubes) into a range of operation where the are not quite as linear as they should be and this may also cause some harmonic distoration - though perhaps very small (like IMD below).

If you are not hitting the voltages that cause clipping, your amplifier may still be unable to accurately reproduce a band limited signal with fidelity. This is what you guys generally talk about as having an amp that has enough power to drive its load. If the power supply on the amp can not supply the dynamic current load required for the signal being amplfied into the load presented at the frequencies required, then some of the frequencies (often bass) are going to be attenuated (voltage out is not as desired because can generate enough current to drive the load to the desired voltage). This is distortion. Impluses that require driving a lot of current in a short time have similar demands on the power system and a lesser amp may also fail to faithfully reproduce the input. Even if your amp measures flat (usually done by measuring one frequency at a time and scanning through the band) such that it has 0 THD, it may still not have 0 THD when it is driving a pass band signal.

Amplifiers also introduce intermodulation distortion (IMD). This is caused by non-linearities in the amplifier. Typically you measure this by applying two frequencies on the input (say 1Khz and 15KHz) and measure the output for any frequences that are outside of 1Khz and 15Khz. Almost all amps exhibit this type of distortion - but it is generally very small. For instance in the above example, there might be a 14KHz and a 16Hz frequency generated which might be (on a good amplifier) -90dB below the 0 dB level of the 15KHz signal (i.e. the 15KHz signal is modulating the 1KHz signal producting side bands at 15KHz +/- 1KHz). And because this exists with two frequences, it exists even more with a pass band signal. These additional frequencies that were not in the input are also part of the total harmonic distoration measured.

The amp also can introduce noise. If your inputs are shorted so that there is no input voltage, you may still have an output voltage. Typically a very low hiss - typically cause by 'shot noise' in transistors (or same sort of thing in tubes) getting amplified through the chain. On a good audio amp, this would typically be down in the -100db or lower range.

As discussed about cables below, amplifiers have a propagation delay. To the extents that the delay is a constant for all frequencies, the characteristics of the signal are not effected. Constant propagation delay equates to linear phase delay (remember "Phase Linear" amps). Reputedly, people can hear the effects of some relatively small non-linearities in phase delay. This doesn't cause any harmonic distortion, but it does effect the shape of the waveform and is referred to as phase distortion. The effect is very dramatic if the variance in propagation delays are on the order of the period of the fundimental frequencies involved (but an audio amplifer with phase distortion this bad would not be something that anyone would build, let alone buy).

Some amps interact 'poorly' with their load. A highly capacitive load can drive some amplifiers into oscillation - often at frequences outside the audio range - like 300KHz perhaps - because the load and the amplifier end up creating a resonant frequency that has positive feedback. Most amps are designed to avoid this - but some amps are sensitive to cables with high capacitance. The typical result is that the amp will eventually self destruct. If the oscillations are outside the audio spectrum then this is harmonic distoration but you won't hear it (i.e. if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it does it make a sound?) You may eventually hear the lack of all frequencies.

I think you might be able to argue that humans can detect distortion more easily on certain types of music. Distortion of audio that has acoustic instruments or human voices that most people can have an opinion about how they should sound would be more likely to be detected by a person than distoration of a recording of say an electric guitar that is driving through a guitar amp that is intentionally being driven into distoration. Who's to say whether the distortion you hear is the distoration from the guitar amp or your kit's amp. Or consider trying to determine if your system is distorting things if all you had to listen to were MP3 recordings which have their own issues with distorting the original signal. For a given gain setting on the amp, I think it would be fair to say that it will distort any band limited signal in a very similar way.

Cables that only consistent of only linear components are not going to introduce IM distoration, harmonic distoration, or noise (unless an external noise source is coupling with your cable - and on ICs this is more of an issue since whatever noise is there gets amplified). Cables do however have an impedance and that impedance is going to have some (very small) impact on the frequency spectrum attenuation - perhaps on the order of a few 0.01 dB between 20hz and 20Khz. In otherwords the cable is a filter, but the effect is mostly negligible.

The cable has a length and therefore an inherent propagation delay, which provided it is constant for all frequencies does not introduce any distortion. However, since the cable has an impedance that is in part reactive (inductance and capacitance) and given that that impedance is not a constant over the frequency spectrum (due to skin effect), the propagation delay is not a constant across the frequence spectrum (or equivalently, the phase delay is not linear over frequency). This non-linear phase delay causes the different frequences to arrive at the end of the cable skewed from where they were when they started into the cable. The difference in propagation delay may be on the order of 100 picoseconds or so. You can have some arguments about whether this is audiable or not.

Coiling your cables is going to introduce some amount of inductance above and beyond what the cable has due to its conductor geometry or its intermal impedance. This inductance is pretty small (unless perhaps you put an iron core in the middle of the coil and turn your cable into an electromagnet). More importantly, the inductance is constant across the frequency spectrum. The inductance doesn't care about the power you drive through it. The magnetic field strength will vary with the power, but the resulting signal propagation velocity due to the inductance is a constant at a given frequency independently of the current. More inductance is not desirable however and does exaserbate the effects of cable attenuation and non-constant propagation delays. Given these effects are possibly negligible, the impact of coiling the cable is also likely to be neglible.

Factors that do seem have measurable effects on a cable are conductivity of the conductor, cable/conductor geometry (effects external capacity and inductance), dielectric used (effects the product of external capacitance and inductance - a lower dialectric constant allows a lower produt L and C), and number and size of conductors (total cross section effecting low frequency internal resistance and inductance) and conductor cross section affecting internal impendances as frequencies go up (skin effect) - gauges about 20 AWG and up generally use the entire conductor for audio band limited signals where smaller gauges exhibit more change in internal impedance with frequence due to skin effect.

Zoebel networks add linear components to the speaker end of a cable, but are none the less just passive linear components and do not introduce distoration other than how these components further affect the filtering effect that the cable has. Zoebel networks are intended to attempt to cancel out some of the inductance of the speaker load.

Other factors that are "less" measurable and may have sonic impact: Many vendors point to the 'purity' and 'surface' characteristics of the conductors. Solid conductors generally being preferable to stranded. High purity (OFC, UPOCC) conductors being perfered to lower purity. These claims appear to have auditable effects according to many. Silver coated copper is sometimes pushed, but some vendors would say that this actually contributes to skin effect issues since the silver has higher conductivity (and faster propagation delay) and is placed where it will effect the higher frequency components phase delay more. Seemingly, good solid silver conductors are reported to have better sound that good solid copper conductors - not sure why this should be - the conductivity is higher which lowers internal resistance - but this seems as though it should not matter much on a speaker cable. Finally there are things like cryro treatments or tesla treatments that are supposed to have an impact but no one knows why for sure it should help audio cables. Others also point to improvements with mechanically isolating cables from vibrations or separating the cables from the floor (by elevating them). Mechanical vibrations which cause the conductors to change physical positioning is going to vary the external impedances of the cable and could therefore effect the sound - for instance, I've heard some microcode cables can actually cause feedback due to mechanical coupling. It seems that most vendor cables are fairly well damped with layers of insulation holding conductors in relative position. The argument for separation from ground might be related to the EM fields from the cable interacting with the "ground" that the earth presents to a charged conductor - if the relative distance between the conductors as small compared to the distance to ground, then "ground" becomes less in less significant - that might have an impact on the effective consistency of the cable geometry. Some vendors also use charged wires to create an electric field around the cable to polarize the dielectric in one orientation (e.g. Audioquest - any cable with a battery). This result seems to occur naturally over a period of a week or so of use so it's not clear to me that it is a general advantage.

I think must of you would agree that different cables have somewhat different sound characteristics. It is not easy to correlate the sound differences with measurable or specific design characteristics or to anticipate whether a given cable is going to sound 'better' or 'worse'. Even more so, whether a cable sounds better or worse may be to some extent a matter of individual preference or perhaps wishful thinking. If there were such a thing as an ideal cable which had no resistance, inductance, or capacitance - would it sound good?

If anyone has any opinions based on experience on any of the list of "less measurable and possible sonic impacting" cable characteristics above - I'd be interested.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13595
Registered: May-04
.

You mention "skin effect" in several cases here. While I personally can accept skin effect as just as good an explanation as any other we have at the moment for why cables do what they do to sound quality, if you introduce skin effect into a discussion with any cable naysayer you will quickly be told how foolish you are (or stupid depending on far the thread has progressed and how high the flames have reached) and how little you understand basic physics. You will become the unpitiable fool who just doesn't get it and insists on displaying their total ignorance of the reality of electronics because skin effect has been shown by math formulas any high school student knows to not have any effect what-so-ever at audio frequencies.




IMO there is far more we do not know than what we do know and skin effect could easily be one of those unknowns or it could be the MacGuffin that has led us down the wrong path all these many years. Therefore, I am cautious about using skin effect to rewrite too many beliefs or explain away too many issues with cables. To my knowledge no one has yet conclusively shown that skin effect does have an affect at audio frequencies - it remains just conjecture and accepted audiophile marketing prose.

As you somewhat allude to in your post, cable technolgy and design is a combination of more than a few schools of thought including metalurgy, transmission line and antenna theory. Anyone who wishes to discuss cables from only one objective is certainly going to miss many points of cable design which opens cables up to being one of the (many) areas where claims of snake oil are the easiest to make and most difficult to defend. And this is now more than thirty years after cables were initially mentioned as factors in sound quality. This is after thousands of converts have been made to the "cables as components" wars. We all know one of the quickest ways to attract the crazies on all sides and get the least accomplished is to start a cable thread.


"Others also point to improvements with mechanically isolating cables from vibrations or separating the cables from the floor (by elevating them). Mechanical vibrations which cause the conductors to change physical positioning is going to vary the external impedances of the cable and could therefore effect the sound - for instance, I've heard some microcode cables can actually cause feedback due to mechanical coupling. It seems that most vendor cables are fairly well damped with layers of insulation holding conductors in relative position."


I have a difficult time understanding how conductors (individual or collective) could move relative to one another in a typical audiophile cable, even at the micro level. But magnetic theory is one of the most difficult for me to grasp and electromagnetic field geometry seems to be at the heart of this sort of discusssion.

I'm not disputing microphonics within a cable, if you pound on a cable with a rubber mallet you can see the effects on a scope. But in the typically overbuilt world of audiophile speaker cables microphonics would appear to be so small an element of discussion as to not be worthy of consideration in all but the most extreme systems. I am more of the believer in things less obvious than this affecting how cables "sound", more a believer in things we still do not know or know of.

A practitioner of Frank's "something else" possibly?

My understanding of cable elevators is they are used primarily to minimize electrostatic fields between the charged dielectric of the cable and any potential secondary dielectric material such as a nylon or petrochemically devrived material in a carpet - electromagnetic theory once again. Surely one issue of elevating cables is the creation of multiples of smaller microphonic/resonant structures between the bridges - between the elevation points - of each section of cable. These resonant structures then adding larger and larger amounts of resonance and microphonics to the signal since they are allowed to act as undamped resonators. Or so the discussion of cables elevators seems to go.


"As discussed about cables below, amplifiers have a propagation delay. To the extents that the delay is a constant for all frequencies, the characteristics of the signal are not effected. Constant propagation delay equates to linear phase delay (remember "Phase Linear" amps). Reputedly, people can hear the effects of some relatively small non-linearities in phase delay. This doesn't cause any harmonic distortion, but it does effect the shape of the waveform and is referred to as phase distortion. The effect is very dramatic if the variance in propagation delays are on the order of the period of the fundimental frequencies involved (but an audio amplifer with phase distortion this bad would not be something that anyone would build, let alone buy)."


Distortion here is, IMO, a misnomer since we are not talking about distortion in terms of adding anything to the signal such as harmonic or intermodular noise. I'm familiar with the concept of "phase distortion" but, as far as I can see, it still represents not a distortion component but a shift in both time and phase.



So, do cables have distortion? No, cables do not "have" distortion. Can cables introduce distortion? That depends on your definition of "distortion".

We commonly think of distortion as harmonic or possibly intermodular components, those things added to the signal by active circuitry or in the transduction of one form of energy to another such as a moving speaker diaphragm or phono cartridge. I have yet to see anyone make a convicing argument for cables having the ability to introduce such distortion components. If you think it's possible, then this discussion should continue.


If you step back just a bit and think of a much broader concept of distortion as any change to the original input signal, then distortion is inevitable in anything through which a signal must pass. Cables are quite capable of altering a signal in specific ways whether that change is phase accuracy or time proprogation over the length of the cable down to simple attentuation by impedance components. Many of these distortions are created not within the cable itself but by the interaction of the cable as a portion of an active circuit comprised of the amplifier (pre amp, source player, etc.) and its load which IMO makes the selling of distortion in cables all the more difficult to accept as a blanket term.

When I asked, "Cables have distortion?", I was not aguing against the concept that cables can introduce changes to the original signal - obviously they can and must. I was hoping to get a discusion regarding "low distortion cables" and just what that might mean as far as the selling of words to influence your purchase. Sorry, Frank, but I don't think you've done a good job of arguing for that case. You danced around the words, never defined what they could mean and always left too many outs that went unexplained and then tried to justify misuse as a way to reconcile the terminology. I hate to say it but you sounded like a salesperson.



Think about what has been said here and consider it whenever you read anything about audio. Words have connotations that can be sklillfully bent to influence your thinking. Question words and don't accept gobbledegook answers even if you yourself don't know the correct answer. Too often in consumer audio "correct" is nothing more than opinon and anyone - anyone - who tells you they have The Truth has nothing of the sort.


.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12354
Registered: Dec-04
don't accept gobbledegook answers even if you yourself don't know the correct answer

How will I know if it is horse-hooey or gobbledegook if I don't know the answer?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13597
Registered: May-04
.

Well, not to pick on Frank but did his answers sound good to you?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rick_r

Tucson, AZ USA

Post Number: 97
Registered: Mar-08
Jan,
What a well articulated response. I am in total agreement with you. And I can relate to your frustration with the combination of mis-information or flat out lies that are used in marketing literature. There are also a lot of statements made on forums that are indicative of lack of knowledge of basic operation of electrical systems or are flat out ka-ka. Your attempts at proding others to be more accurate remind me of the old saying - "Never teach a pig to sing - its a waste of time and it annoys the pig". But it is a noble objective for sure and part of the fun perhaps of this kind of interaction.

I think the key point we are dancing around technically is the definition of distoration. I will concede to you that some (or most) might not consider a component that does not have a totally flat frequency response or a totally linear phase response in the pass band of interest as causing "distortion". However, while it's one thing for a parametric equilizer to act as a linear filter, it's quite another for you speaker cables to do so whether you call it distortion or not.

I also agree that a cable does not create any IM or harmonic distoration. The reference to 'low distoration cables' is certainly going to confuse anyone with less than a EE degree. You might speculate that they were attempting to say something relative to the nature of the impedances of the cable, but more than likely that was not really their intent - its just marketing BS to cause FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt).

I've seen some of the interaction in the cable discussions between the audiophiles and electronics buffs. The audiophiles argue based on what they hear (or think they hear) and the electronics folks argue based on what they can measure with their equipment. I know it is a bitter religious sort of war - one which I was curious about enough to try to get to the bottom of since I've made most of the improvements in equipment I intended to and am down to wondering about whether my $0.33/ft speaker cables might be out-performed by some "better" cables.

The skin effect discussion is interesting to me. I had heard the discussion about it not existing at audio frequencies. My research let me to the web page I indicated in my first post which has an excellent analysis of it from the physics and engineering point (but geared specifically to audio applicatoins and short and clear enough that you can jump to the answers if you don't like equations). I found the site interesting enough that I went out and bought the reference book it mentioned (3rd Edition: Fields and Waves in Communication Electronics - Ramo, Whinnery, Duzer - $148 on Amazon). Not a book for the timid and perhaps best for a lover of differential calculus and Maxwells equations. But to be honest its been very interesting and helpful to my understanding of EM theory in real world components - like cables.

The physics and engineering analysis says that skin depth exists at any frequency (and engineers don't say things they can't back up - at least not if they can get it into a 3rd Edition). The depth of penetration of the current is a function of frequency. For instance, big power lines are sometimes copper coated aluminum because beyond a certain depth, there's no point in paying for the copper - and thats at 60 Hz. At audio frequencies, the depth can be less than the radius of the conductors that are commonly used. The question is not whether skin effects exist, but whether they (i.e. the changes in the impedances due to skin effect) are negligible compared to the other impedancs of the cable at audio frequences - or at least whether these differences have any audible effects. I've been trying to do some additonal analysis of my own to confirm some of the analysis shown on the reference web site. I'm still having trouble getting my spread sheet calculations of inductance to line up with the web site calcuations - more playing around to go.

The examples on that web site looked at a lot of factors like metalurgy, conductor size, conductor spacing, litz wiring, etc. The analysis shows the impact on frequency response and phase response into an 8 ohm resisitve load for a lot of interesting comparitive cases. In the opinion of the author, most of the effects from anything to do with the design parameters of a basic twin feeder cable are so small as to be difficult to measure (at audio frequences) and most likely impossible to hear. Though, he's not ruling out the possibility that some of the effects might be audible or that there are other factors that might have audible effects. It was an excellent example of appling engineering principles to audio cable applications and looking at the results with actually numbers involved.

So having gone through all of that - I'm still left with the question of why do cables sound different. I'm disinclinded to believe that all the audiophiles are totally deluding themselves (at least at some basic level). So, like Mulder - I want to believe that the truth is out there. I'm inclined to think that there may be something in the group delay considerations and perhaps it would be fun to run some actual experiments to attempt to see at what thresholds problems with group delay become audible. Going to need some cool software to go there - time to read up on fourier transforms again.

My basic motivation here was to try to "wisely" chose some upgraded cables to even see if they make a difference to my ears. I'm about to run a somewhat expensive experiment which is likely the subject of another thread. More later.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12357
Registered: Dec-04
Well done Rick.
I am not sure how fast you type, but luckily I can read at a more leisurely pace on this receiving end.

http://www.wiseacre-gardens.com/sound/macntosh04.wav
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2567
Registered: Feb-07
I think Jan and Rick should have a typing race.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 12360
Registered: Dec-04
against belt sanders with ty-wraps on the trigger.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 2569
Registered: Feb-07
Let's arrange it.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rick_r

Tucson, AZ USA

Post Number: 99
Registered: Mar-08
You guys bring the scotch and you're on.
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