Sweet Spot

leo stierer Silver Member Username: Magfan USA Post Number: 408 Registered: Oct-07	Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 10:49 GMT I would like to compare my setup experiences with others. In many system pics, I have seen a single seat in what I presume is the best position....the 'Sweet Spot'. My room is non-dedicated so I must try to please several people at once. When I first set up my Maggies, I tried to get them as far apart as possible, maybe 9' center to center with listening distance of maybe 11' or so. I experimented with toe-in, mainly crossing just in front or in back of the primary listening position. It always sounded a little bright with highs that were just too crisp. I was never completely satisfied. Than, late one nite, I sat very close, maybe 4' from the TV, and the speakers crossed well behind me. The space opened up like magic, nearly surrounding me with sound. I thought about this for a week or so, than decided to simply do something different. I moved the panels as close together as allowed by the furniture. Now they sat just over 6' apart and after experimenting with toe-in, they are very 'open', crossing well behind the primary seating distance. The result is very open sound, much better balance and well imaged. The sweet spot is now wider and also deeper. I can stand behind the sofa and while it sounds different than the closer seat, it is in no way inferior. The next experiment will be to swap the panels L/R and put the tweeters to the inside, ignoring the directions on this placement. I think that will give me more distance to the side walls for the highs and maybe allow me to toe them out another few degrees. Magnepans apparently should NEVER be 90degrees to the back wall. This is in an acoustically untreated room. Please share any setup stories / experiences. Any advice or observations will be put in the hopper for later experiments. I know that there are few panel guys around here, but also that some are past owners with plenty of background.
George Silver Member Username: Soundgame Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 560 Registered: Jun-08	Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 13:20 GMT I auditioned the 1.6R and the store said they reversed the speakers L/R contrary to the instructions because it warmed them up a little in presentation and people in general liked them more. You may lose a touch of clinical detail but it should get you to where you want them...assuming Maggies are for you. Cheers.
David Mitchell Gold Member Username: Dmitchell Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1989 Registered: Feb-07	Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 16:20 GMT I have no experience with Maggies Leo, but I can tell you with my 2 channel system there is a most definite sweet spot. More so with some speakers than others. For example, with my Sttafs, the sweet spot is very precise. With my Studio 20s I can be way off center and still have awesome imaging.
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 13278 Registered: May-04	Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 17:31 GMT . LS - I'm not sure what "input" you are looking for. Obviously, speaker placement matters and obviously you cannot get the best from any speaker in a room that gives no concession to the sound quality - in other words, lack of set up and no room treatments. Just placing the speakers as far apart as possible isn't the best route to set up. Every speaker has a set up procedure that varies little from speaker to speaker and from monopole to dipole/bipole/omnidirectional system. The room determines the best speaker position and the best listening position. Ignoring both will generally not give great results. By moving to within a few feet of the speakers front plane you did three things. First, you were listening well off axis of the tweeters which would seriously affect the frequency balance your heard. Second, you heard less of the first reflections, and probably in an untreated room the second and third reflections also, which means you heard more of the direct output of the speakers themself and far less of the room. Third, you put yourself in the "reverberant" field of the backwave from the dipole speakers' output which will "open the space" simply because your ear is hearing two distinct soundwaves. In this regard what you heard was very likely more of the front wave being bounced back at you and integrating as "ambient information" which is just the opposite of what should happen with a dipole. "Tweeters in" or "tweeters out" is up to the owner when given a mirror image speaker set. As with most things audio, there are trade offs for each decision. If you're looking for "experience", then I would suggest experience says read up about placement of dipoles and treatment of your room. Where you sit and where the speakers sit is paramount to good sound no matter what speaker system you use. Room treatment should be sparse but well thought out and specifically placed for a dipole system, you are looking for more diffusion and less absorption with any speaker that is not a monopole. Absorbing the first reflection point and not simply moving it further away from the direct sound is still the best overall strategy with any speaker. Reflections must integrate with direct sound and, if they do not, then you are not going to achieve the best sound quality. Those are the keys to getting the best from any speaker and certainly from anything other than a monopole system. .
GlassWolf Platinum Member Username: Glasswolf Raccoon City, MI USA Post Number: 12252 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 18:04 GMT One thing at which I looked, so to speak, when I chose my speakers, was their off-axis imaging. Some are much better than others at sounding good when you're not in that centered "sweet spot." Beyond that, some are far pickier about speaker positioning for things like bipolar reflection, so where you put the speakers in the room makes a massive difference, as with one pair I use. In the end, I went with a pair of KEF 104/2 Reference mains, due to outstanding off-axis imaging performance among other features, and also chose a set of Martin Logan Odyssey mains, which are very picky about positioning due to being a bipolar speaker, producing the same output in front and behind the ESL panels. That said, with proper positioning, and a lot of tweaking to find where they sounded the best to me, from several positions in the room, I was happy with the outcome.
leo stierer Silver Member Username: Magfan USA Post Number: 409 Registered: Oct-07	Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2009 - 23:12 GMT I just want to share part of the 'journey' with others and hear part of others story. I have owned panels for going on 30 years and have never had this much trouble....I think I also raised the bar as I did a total system rebuild over the last 2 years. That my room is a tough one is very true. I have 2 walls at 45' angles. One of them faces the speakers and is about 11' tall. I continue to read about room acoustics but can't get pass the 'ugly' aspect of many room treatments. A trip to LA Fashion District will eventually be made to look at fabrics for drapes/panels. A local source for OC703 has been found and I can order anytime. If I can't make good looking panels, I may end up hanging a (large) rug in 2 places...the back wall and the 45' wall. As for input, anything can help but mainly personal experience with problem rooms and solutions.
George Silver Member Username: Soundgame Richmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 567 Registered: Jun-08	Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 02:10 GMT I was just visiting a guy and what he'd done is build wood frames out of some spruce and then cover it with a burlap material. They worked for him and looked good to me.
Michael Wodek Gold Member Username: Mike3 Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1721 Registered: May-06	Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 05:31 GMT My Gallo's are picky on the LR axis, not so much for the Front to Back. I have a heavenly sweet spot that affords you all the detail you can handle while near perfectly framing the vocalist. However, while the vocalist moves off center with me, the stereo imaging is so good it is there even if I am outside of one of my speakers. Nowhere near as good as if I am in my "hot seat", but still avialable. Any video display between the speakers is a sound killer. If you do not believe me, remove it and see what happens. It took a while but JV convinced me of this. A good sounding set up does not happen by accident or overnight. It takes effort and experimentation and an ear to hear both good and bad. Having a friend to add what they hear is invaluable. (Thanks JV!) Molloy posted a link to some non-offensive room treatments a while ago but they are expensive. You can use ordinary household furniture or decorations to aid in room treatments. Not everybody's room has to have the man cave look I have adopted. One more thing Leo, those 45 deg. walls may be to your advantage. Another member provided this earlier but I forget who it was to credit, check this out: http://www.decware.com/paper14.htm
Jan Vigne Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigne Dallas, TX Post Number: 13281 Registered: May-04	Posted on Monday, January 12, 2009 - 14:57 GMT . LS - Not every room has to be stuffed full of fiberglass to sound good. One of the advantages of dipoles is the lack of absorption they require. As I stated, you are after more diffusion than absorption when using anything other than monopoles. However, most rooms are rectangular boxes which become just another speaker enclosure than resonates and creates problems in the lowest bass region. For this, absorptive corner treatments are still the most cost effective method of solving the problem though not the only solutions. Non-parallel walls do help in this situation but rooms are designed for living and not typically for great sound quality. If you've spent the money on the system, then you really should pay attention to the details of set up that extract the best performance from the products you paid for. There are several room treatments that do not rely on the conventional "refrigerator door in the corner" look to acoustic treatments. You can look at devices such as the ART system, http://www.synergisticresearch.com/?p=195, which is designed with new thinking applied to the problem. The ART system is gaining a reputation for problem solving despite their unconventional approach to room treatment. Ted is an extremely intelligent and nice guy to deal with and they have an audition process that allows you to make up your own mind. Nowdays there are quite a few alternatives to fiberglass if you are willing to dislodge your preconceptions to how things "must" work. Unfortuantely, nothing can substitute for proper speaker placement and listening position. Effort put into the set up of your speakers will make more difference than any amount of room treatment devices can ever hope to provide. .
leo stierer Silver Member Username: Magfan USA Post Number: 411 Registered: Oct-07	Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 19:39 GMT Just catching up: Thanks for some Very Good answers. I have some reading and experimenting to do. And yes, I'd sure like to avoid the 'refrigerator door' look.
Chris H Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly Nova Scotia Canada Post Number: 472 Registered: Jul-07	Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 01:04 GMT I've never been able to get my rig setup to my satisfaction. I've finally decided (again) to move all the audio gear downstairs to a spare room in the basement. I've resisted this as the room is smaller than my living room and likely even more challenging to setup correctly. However, the benefits are that I can do whatever the heck I want. So, I won't have a 42" LCD TV between my speakers, I can build a proper rack that doesn't have to get the seal of approval from anyone else, I can mount my turntable on the wall, and I can tame that mass of wires jammed behind my current stand. It'll take me a few weeks to clean the room out and set it up, but it will hopefully be worth it.
David Mitchell Gold Member Username: Dmitchell Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1993 Registered: Feb-07	Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 01:08 GMT You gonna move your Sierras down there Chris?
Chris H Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly Nova Scotia Canada Post Number: 473 Registered: Jul-07	Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 01:29 GMT Yep. The whole rig. Except I'll need either a new CDP or transport as the Oppo needs to stick with the TV. I think the iMac will go down with me too. I know what I want to build for a rack, and what I want to do initially for room treatments. It will either be a lot of fun and very rewarding, or an exercise in absolute frustration. Stay tuned.
David Mitchell Gold Member Username: Dmitchell Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1997 Registered: Feb-07	Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 01:41 GMT Whatcha building for a rack?
Chris H Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly Nova Scotia Canada Post Number: 475 Registered: Jul-07	Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:10 GMT A variation of this I think.... http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/flexye.html
David Mitchell Gold Member Username: Dmitchell Ottawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1999 Registered: Feb-07	Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 02:37 GMT How many shelves do you need?
Art Gold Member Username: Artk Albany, Oregon USA Post Number: 8653 Registered: Feb-05	Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 06:25 GMT Go get 'em Chris...post pics when you get it done.
Chris H Silver Member Username: Hawkbilly Nova Scotia Canada Post Number: 478 Registered: Jul-07	Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 20:47 GMT Sorry for derailing your thread Leo. David, I'll go with 6, which I don't need at the moment, but I'll leave room for some future toys.
GlassWolf Platinum Member Username: Glasswolf NW, MI USA Post Number: 12315 Registered: Dec-03	Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 22:17 GMT http://www.glasswolf.net/av/av01.jpg that's the rack I built for my stuff. I used spalted maple for the main body, and red cedar for the back panel. I used tempered smoked glass for the shelves, and put openings at each shelf level for cable management. It turned out alright. Much cheaper than the BDI product similar to mine in design, and building it myself allowed me to set shelf depths and such myself, which helps with big AV receivers like the NR906. Most of the premade stuff I saw couldn't take the depth and still allow any room for the cables in back. Same holds true with laserdisc players and CD carousels.

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