Dynaudio Focus 110s vs. 140s - power?

 

New member
Username: New_england_matt

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 1
Registered: Dec-08
Have much enjoyed reading the posts over the years and now, because I'm in the midst of a big upgrade, am posting for the first time.

I've recently acquired an Arcam A85 and a CD72, so it's now time to upgrade my beloved Paradigm Mini-Monitors. After a lot of auditioning of bookshelf-size speakers in the $1-2k range (including Audio Physic, Totem, B&W, Revel), I've settled on either the Dynaudio Focus 140s or Focus 110s.

While I prefer the spaciousness and deep bass of the 140s, my question is whether or not my Arcam will be up to driving the 140s, or if I'd be better served by saving some money and going for the 110s (which are also no slouches in the bass & space department)?

Thanks to all, and happy new year!
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1889
Registered: Feb-07
Sounds like you have the making for a very nice system Matt. I have no experience with Dynaudio. Hopefully someone will come along soon with the knowledge you seek.

What were your thoughts on the Totems? Which ones did you audition? I'm a big Totem fan.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2207
Registered: Jun-07
Frank should be along shortly Matt. He has a lot of experience with both Arcam and Dynaudio.
 

New member
Username: New_england_matt

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2
Registered: Dec-08
I'd listened to the Rainmakers and the Model Ones. (The floorstanders are a no-go due to apartment living, unfortunately.) I'd consider the Rainmakers pretty seriously if the Dyns hadn't grabbed me; one of the best values of what I'd auditioned, IMHO, given the strong low end and good sound-staging. As with my paradigms, doubt that I'd ever look back.
The Model Ones I found a bit lacking in the low end for my taste, given that I listen to a lot of rock and jazz, and a subwoofer would annoy the neighbors. As with the Audio Physics, however, I loved the airy sound-stage. Have you owned Totems other than the Sttaf?

Nick K-- thanks, I was hoping someone would say that! I've learned a lot from Frank's posts so far.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1890
Registered: Feb-07
I've never had the pleasure of checking out the Dynaudios unfortunately.

The Sttafs are my first Totems, but I've spent a lot of time auditioning all flavours of Totem. I was just listening to the Model Ones last week at my dealer's on an all McIntosh rig. It was stunning.
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada

Post Number: 481
Registered: Jun-08
Sadly, I've not had the chance to audition the Dynaudios but I've actually heard lots of good things about them and spoken to a gentlement who actually loved the sound of them with his TT and vinyl collection.

If you have the liking for both but are leaning towards the 140's stay the course and get them. You can always upgrade the amplifier section later. You don't want to get the 110's and then regret not getting the 140's, most especially if you had the cash to get the 140's.

If the 140's are your real love, do it man! Do it now! And, don't forget to report back to us on them.

Cheers.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13252
Registered: May-04
.

You should compare the impedance vs. electrical phase angle swings for both speakers. That generally tells you what you need to know about amplification requirements for any specific speaker.

Can you find and post any measurements for both speakers?

.
 

New member
Username: New_england_matt

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 3
Registered: Dec-08
Hello Jan,

I actually turned up a past post of yours in researching this-- had missed it in my initial googling :-)

As for the 110s:
"listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/--15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +1.37/--4.15 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. An average of axial and +/--15-degree horizontal responses measures +2.02/--3.85 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The --3-dB point is at 52 Hz, and the --6-dB point is at 47 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.33 ohms at 216 Hz and a phase angle of --34.92 degrees at 111 Hz."

And the 140s:
"listening-window response measures +0.79/--4.09 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The --3-dB point is at 53 Hz, and the --6-dB point is at 44 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.35 ohms at 164 Hz and a phase angle of --48.21 degrees at 91 Hz."
(both from hometheatermag.com)

I'd never heard of this measurement before and welcome your commentary on it.

Per my manual, the A85 is 85 watts in 8 ohms and 140 in 4 ohms.
 

New member
Username: New_england_matt

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 4
Registered: Dec-08
And thanks for the words of encouragement, George. Because this is a credit-card based love affair, I want to be sure that any purchase will be a good match in the colder light of morning :-) More seriously, though, I've only had a chance to audition the speakers on somewhat higher end electronics, and so I'd prefer not to seriously overmatch my amp and be disappointed. And I'm sure I'll be happy with either speaker so long as I feel that I've done the research (with everyone's help).

(It's a totally separate issue, but I also suspect that the 110s I'd heard hadn't yet been burned in, and so would open a bit with time- seems to be a big thing with Dyns, per other postings here, right?)
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13253
Registered: May-04
.

Both of those speakers will demand - not require but demand - an amplifier that can churn out substantial amounts of current on call and on a constant basis should the signal require. This is more separate power amplifier territory than integrated amplifier capability. I don't have any experience with the Arcam line so maybe this isn't an issue here. I just don't see these speakers as "average" or even slightly easy to drive which is what I would consider pairing with most integrateds.

Neither speaker is better than the other in this regard though the higher phase angle of the 140's would suggest they are the more difficult to drive. However, neither set of specs is totally informative here either. If the phase angle is high when the impedance is low, this would mitigate some of the issues. (That wouldn't appear to be the case here.) My past experience with the most recent Dynaudio lines, however, would suggest they have designed a complex crossover that will suck lots of power.

I certainly wouldn't buy either of these speakers without an in home audition process. And I would expect you would eventually be wanting a new power amp if you chose either of these two speakers.

If I were you, I wouldn't give up on the Dynaudios, you might not play the sort of music that pushes the limits of the system with these speakers. That would be somewhat difficult to believe since the specs for both speakers do indicate their minimum impedance and largest phase shift occur within an octave of each other.

(110: "Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.33 ohms at 216 Hz and a phase angle of --34.92 degrees at 111 Hz."

140: "Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.35 ohms at 164 Hz and a phase angle of --48.21 degrees at 91 Hz."

"-" phase angle typically inidcates a very capacitive load which few amplifiers will enjoy.)

The point where these speakers are the most difficult to drive falls in the lowest midrange where male vocals begin and in the mid to upper bass where tremendous energy exists in most music material.

Without a more complete view of the speaker's measurements it's impossibe to tell what's truly happening with these speakers. If the speaker's electrical sensitivity is on the low side of average, beneath 87dB, then I would have even more hesitancy about this purchase. I would be reconsidering my choices just in case you find the Dynaudios to be more difficult than your present amplifier can manage.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3452
Registered: Sep-04
As Jan says, these are not easy speakers to drive. FYI, the 110 is rated at 85db and a 4 ohm load. The 140 is 86db, again with 4 ohm load. That phase angle certainly seems to make the 140 much more difficult than its little brother in practice. I wouldn't dream of putting a 140 on the end of an A85. I'd imagine (but not having done so I do hesitate) that the A85 should be able to cope with the 110 but would still prefer to check that the pairing worked together in demonstration conditions. I've driven the 110s successfully with the Naim Nait5i which is not as powerful on paper, and with the new Arcam A28 which is not as powerful as your A85 on paper (but amazingly powerful in practice). Just don't expect disco levels from it - it won't do it.
 

New member
Username: New_england_matt

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 5
Registered: Dec-08
Thank you, Jan and Frank, for your evaluations-- really appreciate it, even though it's not what I'd hoped to hear :-) Just to be clear, what are the implications of over-matching a speaker like the 140 to an amp? Is it a matter of losing detail and dynamics, a limit on max spl, danger of activating amp clipping? All of the above? Fortunately, I don't need disco levels-- maybe just "I think there's a disco around here somewhere, I can hear it" levels :-)

I did go back and hear the 140s (110s not available) driven by a 60 wpc Rega Mira. Hoped this would be a fairer comparison to my set-up than the mid-line Naim equipment. It sounded very good, though that by no means indicates it was optimal. Frank, is this a case-- like the Naim or the A28-- where the wpc rating is pretty conservative as far as driving a speaker? Or do you think the Mira's performance might be a reasonable demonstration of what I could expect from the A85?
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 456
Registered: Jul-07
Here are some measurements for the 110's. From 100 to 200 HZ looks challenging.

Upload
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13254
Registered: May-04
.

"Just to be clear, what are the implications of over-matching a speaker like the 140 to an amp? Is it a matter of losing detail and dynamics, a limit on max spl, danger of activating amp clipping? All of the above?"

Most of what you describe is true. The amp will sound lackluster and appear to be struggling with most program material. You will always have the desire to turn up the volume to hear more but more volume won't bring more sound quality. Delivering current will make most amps run hot which isn't the best choice for any amplifier.

At 85 and 86dB sensitivity you aren't going to achieve anything close to "I think I hear a disco" levels.


.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 457
Registered: Jul-07
I'm also surprised that you're noticing deep bass with these speakers as the bass response drops steeply below 60 Hz. When you were listening to them in the showroom, were they back against a wall by any chance ?
 

New member
Username: New_england_matt

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 6
Registered: Dec-08
Thanks for clarification, Jan. Very glad I posted this thread before taking the plunge!

Thanks for the charts, Chris. As far as the bass on the 110s goes, I'm definitely speaking in relative terms. I was very pleased with the strength and-- importantly-- clarity of the bass and lower-midrange as compared to some of the other small stand-mounts I'd auditioned and liked. Certainly not "deep" in the larger scheme of things, but it sounded relatively convincing and "right" to my ears. While I didn't have a chance to A/B either with the 110s, my impression was that the Totem Rainmakers and Revel M20s were also relatively strong in bass; I just preferred the overall sound of the Dyns.

They were placed 2-3 feet from the back wall (and well away from the side walls) in the showroom. In my 12x16ish room, they'll necessarily be no more than 1-2 feet from the back wall, so I'm likely to get that reinforcement as well.

While I do listen to a lot of rock, it doesn't tend to be very heavy, so this is the area where I'm most prepared to compromise. I'm more concerned with getting a bit more detail out of male vocals and electric bass.

I see that you have the Ascend Acoustics. While I think that I'm going to try my luck with the Dyn 110s, would be curious to hear about your experience-- what made you choose those speakers?
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 458
Registered: Jul-07
Matt, if you like the Dyn 110s that much, then buy them. If you have to upgrade your amp at some point so be it. But as you've heard, be prepared that you might not hear their best until you do.

What made me choose the Ascends is largely prior experience. I already owned a set of their earlier speakers and liked them. I also got great customer service from them. Of course I read all of the rave reviews as well, including one which reviewed them on the amp I ultimately bought. I don't think I could have done any better for the price, but that's JMO.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3463
Registered: Sep-04
Matt,

The A85 is a powerful amplifier so you should achieve healthy levels of volume. unfortunately, this is not the problem with the mismatch - the problem is (as jan says) that the amp sounds like it's struggling to control the speakers even though it can achieve any volume you like so it might be a disco but nobody wants to be there, if you get my drift.

Just last Saturday I was playing the 110s on the end of a naim Nait5i which is a piddling little 50w amp, but it worked reasonably well because the amp has the current to control the speakers, a fact reflected in the '500W into 1 ohm (briefly)' claim of the amp.

teh interesting thing about 110s is that although the figures indicate a lack of bass, they sound bigger and meatier than many much larger speakers, even when they're a nice distance (2ft or more) from the back wall. Don't be fooled by the numbers - they're a guide. The 110s certainly have a lot of weight irrespective of size, and placing them near a wall will actually increase the amount of bass in a bad way since that is uncontrolled port-generated bass of one note. Better to steer clear of walls - minimum of about 2ft...

These are looking less and less like speakers for you Matt!
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