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SHM-CD: New and improved CD format from Japan!

 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2159
Registered: Oct-04
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/shmcd.htm
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 8156
Registered: Feb-05
WOW!!! Thanks for that Christopher...can't wait to see those...oh and ofcourse hear them!
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2161
Registered: Oct-04
Seems like it would be simple & effective upgrade.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 8161
Registered: Feb-05
I'm looking forward to giving them a spin.
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 372
Registered: Dec-07
As am I. Thanks for posting that up.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3382
Registered: Sep-04
This seems like a different way of doing what Sony announced with the blu-spec CD -i.e. a standard CD burned using blu-spec lasers. This makes the pits far more accurately burned which is the same benefit claimed in the article above. For more info:

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/11/06/sony_japan_blu_spec_cd/
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2188
Registered: Oct-04
Actually, it would seem that the best thing would be to use both, better pitting and enhanced transparency.

But I doubt we'll see that any time soon.

Perhaps another format war brewing?
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2189
Registered: Oct-04
Found this in that link Frank http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/10/16/hands_on_sandisk_slot_player/

I've speculated for a while that an SD card or USB jumpdrive might be the way to go in the future, eliminating all the inherent problems CDPs all together, but to use a compressed format, even a good one, is a mistake. If the new SD cards are a minimum of 1GB, and as much as 2GB, than that's certainly enough storage for uncompressed album or two.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 11153
Registered: Dec-04
Full sized files don't sell, CM, you know that.
The kids want 2 billion free songs on the head of a pin, none of them intelligible as listenable music.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rick_r

Tucson, AZ USA

Post Number: 62
Registered: Mar-08
Not all compression algorithms are 'lossy'. I've worked on systems that compress/decompress computer data. When your talking about bank accounts and such, it's not good to change any of the bits even a little. So I don't think compression has to be inherently evil.

I haven't surveyed the formats being used in the music/video arena these days to see what they're up to - some are obviously a problem. The 'lossy' formats are likely to compress more and that is probably their main appeal in the consumer market. Why use a lossless algorithm that gives you say 3:1 compression if you can toggle a few bits with a lossy algorithm and get say 10:1.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2191
Registered: Oct-04
I'm pretty sure you can squeeze both a lossless and 320Kbps album onto a 1GB soundcard.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2104
Registered: Jun-07
Some albums would be a close call on a 1gb. But yes, most could fit easily. A typical Lossless album of 10-15 songs at an average of 3 minutes per song runs between 400-600 MB's for the album. That is at full uncompressed.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wattsssup

Barrie, ON Canada

Post Number: 287
Registered: Aug-06
Compression is the devil!
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2192
Registered: Oct-04
I don't think 320Kbps is too awful.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 8210
Registered: Feb-05
Many of my albums...classical and jazz run 55-79 minutes...
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2193
Registered: Oct-04
OK then, a 2GB card.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1575
Registered: May-06
Hey Rick R, where you been?
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3387
Registered: Sep-04
That sandisk product is dead in the water. Single album, and it's not even full uncompressed quality? Restriction on SDRAM size? Why??? No display?! Gimme a break!

It'll never take off. It's ill-conceived at best. It should have been something quite different. That said, I think SDRAM is an excellent carrier. Slotting an sdram card into a machine to play music is a great idea. No moving parts, much better longevity etc. I was talking about this 5 years ago.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 11160
Registered: Dec-04
And 5 years ago, Frank, you wore smaller pants.
Is this getting you anyhwere without being elected?

Ill-conceived got us an Edsel, A Corvair and a couple of elected officials, none of which panned out too well.

The kids will buy it, Frank.
Sell the crap and sell your soul...
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3397
Registered: Sep-04
I don't think so. The kids want to have all their music all the time and to be able to share their music. This gadget doesn't allow that. If, OTOH, the SDRAM part got picked up, then the carrier ceases to be CD and becomes an SDRAM card, the 'mechanism' becomes a card reader. Music could be buffered and played direct off the card reader as is already done easily, and the music could be sucked straight onto a hard drive for multi-album storage.

So I don't have a problem with the carrier, just the transport.

My pants weren't much smaller 5 years ago, sadly.
 

Silver Member
Username: Unbridled_id

ChicagoUsa

Post Number: 416
Registered: Mar-04
Perfect sound forever just keeps getting better and better.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3416
Registered: Sep-04
You like the sound of my pants??? :-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Dudywoxer

ScunthorpeUK

Post Number: 71
Registered: Mar-06
hell NO
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3419
Registered: Sep-04
Shucks, not sure whether I should feel offended or not...:-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1762
Registered: Feb-07
It looks really cool, but it'll never fly with the kids. The problem is that the people who actually like to walk into a brick and mortar and purchase (or order the hardcopy online through mailorder) are in the minority.

Sadly 192k mp3 seems to be good enough.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3431
Registered: Sep-04
192k mp3? I think you mean 128k MP3 although iTunes also offers DRM-less 256k MP3 now.

There are also high res outlets now such as www.hdtracks.com and iTrax.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rick_r

Tucson, AZ USA

Post Number: 63
Registered: Mar-08
Hey Michael_W!
Been listening to my kit more than reading the forums, but every now and then I miss you guys and have to come back to see what's up. There's not many places I get to hear folks talk about pants and such.

Having gotten through the initial euphoria of getting a new amp, speakers, and a decent DAC, I'm down to feeding my audio jones with listening to everything I can get my hands on and pondering esoterics like cables, speaker placement, room acoustics, and tweeks. The wife has bigger plans for another house remodel, but unfortunately, it doesn't include a dedicated listening room and the audio budget is in sad shape.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1617
Registered: May-06
Nice to see you're still in there Rick. JV and I put together some fairly nice cables.

I too have been focusing on tweaks and room. Most of the time you can get more out of your kit there than upgrading components.

My only recent upgrade was to a Micro Benz Gider S high output cart.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rick_r

Tucson, AZ USA

Post Number: 64
Registered: Mar-08
I got a CI Audio VDA-2 from Santa and its making my Oppo sound pretty good.

Tell me about your cables?
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1620
Registered: May-06
Ok Rick. Please bear in mind that there are limitations to the length of the stuff I build. Maybe 2 meters for the ICs, I do not know about longer. Possibly 12-15 ft on the speaker wires depending on how thick (combined wire guage) you make them. For both, your results may vary.

The RCAs are Vigne's <$100 IC design, previously posted on this forum, which I actually had Jan help me build. I have modified it with upgraded connectors and by incorporating silver.

RCA Interconnects:
Radio Shack Magnet 30 awg for the (-) lead with 1/2 inch or less of each end stripped.
.9999 pure silver 28 awg for the (+) lead
Eichmann Bullet Interconnects
Silver solder
No shielding or wrap of any type (you may find it pragmatic to tape the lenght of the silver leads if you are unable to keep the left and right ICs from contacting each other or a common metal stand or something).
Cost: Whatever you can get the Eichmann Bullets for (retails ~$56), $4.95 for a package of magnet wire 3 spools of different gauges. Silver I purchased by the foot about 18 mos. ago. I do not know what it goes for now. The net is these cables cost less than $70 to make. Cost me about $15 for one set, $30 for the next. I have about $1,500 in RCAs unemployed due to these ICs.

I also do my own speaker wire, from the school of JV, magnet wire with a single strand of Silver wire braided around each lead of magnet wire(s). The number of strands and gauge of magnet wire is dependent on the relationship between the power output of your amplifier and the efficiency of your speakers. I am not trying to be ambiguous however you will need to experiment by adding and removing strands of magnet wire until you hit the right combined gauge. You will know it when you hit it right. Once I have the gauge dialed in I then use clear packing tape to keep the speaker wire on a parallel line to the speakers. I take 3 lengths of packing tape and slightly overlap them face up on a long flat surface. I place the wire just inside the outer edge of the tape. (+) on one side, (-) on the other side. I then place 3 more lengths of packing tape face down over the face up tape and wire. This is not easy at all since the wire and tape keep making contact where you do not want them to. Having someone assist you with the taping is required. Other types of tape will work as well. It is important that the wire is connected bare (strip the ends of the magnet wire), no bananas or spades whatsoever. The cost? About $2 per run, plus your labor. The result? Priceless!

That CI Audio VDA-2 is a sweet find Rick. You should start separate thread to let us know how you like it. I need to find something to make my laptop a player in my kit.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rick_r

Tucson, AZ USA

Post Number: 65
Registered: Mar-08
Michael_W

Thanks for the info on the cables. The price is right!!! I feel guilty about hijacking a forum so I'll stop with the cable stuff here.

If you can give me a link to JVs cable design post, it would be handy! The one's I've found so far had some great comments from JV but mostly vitirolic antagonism between the two sides of the battle field - sheez!

I'll think about a thread on the VDA-2 - there's not much discussion around on it though most of what I've seen is positive. I certainly am enjoying it - though I have little experience with any alternatives beyond moderate to cheap universal players. This is pretty current:
http://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/386640.html
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1635
Registered: May-06
Rick,

Christopher Molloy really dialed this in on this thread.

http://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?1/530143

Cheers!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rick_r

Tucson, AZ USA

Post Number: 73
Registered: Mar-08
Thanks Michael.

Now back to the SHM-CD. Who's got a blue-ray burner and has tried to rip a CD and play it on a blue ray player? Is that possible? Would/does it see similiar improvements in sound reproduction?
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2846
Registered: Oct-04
OK, I'm just curious if anyone has delved into world of SHM-CDs?

I see that The Rolling Stones' London/Decca box-set has been imported from Japan, but at $685 it's a bit rich for my taste.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001HXY906
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 669
Registered: Jul-07
I think price is the issue for most of the higher fidelity formats/media. $40-$50 and up for a cd is pretty steep, and I expect will keep many people on the sidelines....as seems to be the case for K2-HD, XRCD, etc. Ultimately I think the medialess route is where the world is going, so improving a legacy media seems counterproductive unless you can make it very attractive price-wise.....which doesn't seem to be the case.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13395
Registered: Dec-04
The Beatles remastered in mono/redbook is something that I will pay for...today.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2849
Registered: Oct-04
I fear you might be right regarding the "medialess" route, but I for one (and I suspect everyone reading this) will want a hard-copy of their recordings in one way, shape, or form.

I still suspect that as Flash memory gets cheaper & cheaper, it will become the new standard media. A full album of uncompressed music, art, liner notes, lyrics, and even video can usually fit very nicely on 1GB.

I know I've posted on this before, but here's something for the newbies:

http://www.manifest-tech.com/ce_products/flash_media.htm

You can also say goodbye to scratched discs, error correction, spinning mechanisms, noise, cables, heat, etc. from CD-players.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2851
Registered: Oct-04
...but then we can look forward to audiophile-grade Flash Card Readers from Esoteric & Rega.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 670
Registered: Jul-07
You might be right Chris. I dunno. I just don't see what the value proposition is for consumers of buying media to get their tunes, if they can download the same quality online. I can always move my tunes to an alternate media for archival purposes myself, and can choose whatver media form for that pupose I want. Data is data at that point, and I'm hardpressed to come up with what audiophile advantage would be of one media over another. Really cd-r's may be just as good for preserving a "hardcopy" as some other media forms. They have less capacity than other forms like flash memory, hard drives, etc, but they are less prone to random acts of failure. Once you're truly into the digital world, and away from reading pits on a disk, any storage media may suffice. Just a matter of reliability and convenience at that point.

But ultimately I think the only "media" decision is one of preservation, not playback. The primary song library is likely be your harddrive.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2854
Registered: Oct-04
If the system is kept entirely solid-state, I see tremendous upsides to a flash memory based system, namely the elimination of moving parts & corruptible media (I don't think flash memory is as prone to corruption as a hard-drive?).

I envision it as either a stand-alone unit which includes a DAC & perhaps a display with track info, or something like that mated to an integrated amp.

But that's a long ways off, if ever.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2743
Registered: Jun-07
Going back to how Media Centers and Audio Servers will take over. Units being built in the market today will come fully supportive of all the flash media Readers in the front panel to either plug and listen, or plug and rip to the drive. Faster ripping that of a CD. Then its stored, in a multi organized library and then integrated with a good DAC. The best of all three worlds.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2744
Registered: Jun-07
Flash media is definitely corruptible too.

Its not a long way off. Its coming fast. Just not in a form of just a dedicated Flash Media/DAC system. IMO.
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3016
Registered: Feb-07
Flash media also has a finite amount of read/write cycles.

Granted, it's a pretty high number, but a CD is still a much less volatile storage medium.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2861
Registered: Oct-04
From Wiki

" This limitation is meaningless for 'read-only' applications such as thin clients and routers, which are only programmed once or at most a few times during their lifetime."
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3018
Registered: Feb-07
True. But I've had Flash drives malfunction before.

Then again, CD's get scratched, I've had 3 hard drives fail recently, Nothing is perfect.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 2745
Registered: Jun-07
I have definitely had Flash media fail on me as well. I guess anything software or hardware media based will fail from time to time.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 2862
Registered: Oct-04
As well as all of the aforementioned problems, I've had a CD player or two go kaput.

But I've never had this happen...yet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD_rot
 

Gold Member
Username: Dmitchell

Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 3019
Registered: Feb-07
I've had that happen with burned CDs, but never with an audio CD.

Probably low quality media...
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Toronto, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 957
Registered: Jun-08
I've heard about this but it's never happened to any of mine and I have disks from the early 80's when CD was just breaking in.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 13400
Registered: Dec-04
That edge painting with a marker might be good for more than first thought
 

Bronze Member
Username: Peter_benders

Sandiego, CA US

Post Number: 16
Registered: Jun-09
I use CD, with flash disc i usually face problems or it takes longer time than CD.
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