Opting for VPI Scoutmaster

 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 343
Registered: Dec-07
Just put an offer in on a VPI Scoutmaster with JMW-9 signature arm mint at 1/2 retail. OOOOOHHH baby.

Now for the cartridge (hopefully won't take me 8 months to decide on that--LOL). Anyone using Dynavector 10x5 on similar table or with tubes that can comment or make alternate suggstion? Art Dudley at Stereophile did not see advantage in going up to 20X, although those can be had lightly used for about what the 10x5 costs new. Used cartridge though -- yikes.

Time for me to putt or get off the green (apologies to all in snow country--LOL).
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1514
Registered: May-06
Do you have anywhere where you can listen to a VPI?

Perhaps somewhere that has multiple TT set ups with different cartridges in play. That dealer should be able to provide you some with some of the nuances of various cartridges.

Perhaps Frank of Jan will have more enlightening words for you.

If not, call Needle Doctor and speak to them about what you want out of a cartridge.

I had spoken to my dealer about what my needs / budget were but he couldn't get shipment on the Benz Micro Glider S he strongly recommended and I ended up getting it from Needle Doctor after discussing various other options with them.
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 344
Registered: Dec-07
Thanks Mike, good suggestion. In fact, there is a VPI dealer fairly close that carries Benz Micro, Clear Audio, Shelter and a few others, but does not list Dynavector. However, they have a VPI table factory supplied with a 10x5 that I think they could lash up to some tube gear for a listen. I'll give it a go. $1K for a Glider S is a little rich for my tastes, though, so I hope I don't like it--LOL.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 8125
Registered: Feb-05
I've heard good things about that Benz Michael bought with the VPI tables. You may not want to listen...lol!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13092
Registered: May-04
.

I've not heard the current Dynavector line at all. The last time I heard any Dynavector was over ten years ago. However, a Dynavector cartridge's house sound with a VPI Scout and the VPI unipivot arm might just be too much of a good thing. You might possibly consider something with other strenghts depending, of course, on what you expect from your system. Personally, I'd be considering the Benz line - the Ace is quite good, the Grados or the Ortofon line, but that would give me what I want from my system. You'll have to articulate what it is you want before we can go much further. Additionally, I believe VPI is now selling a heavy weight counterweight for the 9" unipivot. That would very likely be a good upgrade for whatever cartridge you choose.

.
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 345
Registered: Dec-07
Thanks for the thoughts Jan. I recently attended two out of town concerts and a listen when I returned home left me pretty satisfied that my system with the digital source was reproducing the "live sound" pretty faithfully. I obviously would like to retain that with the analog source.


If you have used more than one cartridge in your Scout, I would be interested in the differences you noticed.


I based my initial leanings toward the Dynavector on the summary in the attached review, except for the "it looks cool" thing. [It has also gotten pretty good commentary here as well.] I would say his comments about imaging, textures, low surface noise and not sounding hard or edgy probably resonated most with me. However, it was not reviewed on a VPI table, nor did his review of the VPI table include a Dynavector as one of the cartridges, so your point is well taken that the match may not be ideal. I will look into the others further.

http://www.stereophile.com/analogsourcereviews/947/index2.html

I listen to a lot of acoustic trio jazz, so piano and acoustic bass reproduction is paramount. I have found if a system gets those right, it gets most things right.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3098
Registered: May-05
I've seen the Scout paired up with the 10x5 in a bunch of places. None come to mind right now though. I'm pretty sure Music Direct used to offer a Scout/10x5 package.

The Scoutmaster and Singature arm change things though.
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 350
Registered: Dec-07
Stu, I have seen a couple of those pairings as well, one at a local dealer and I believe I saw one from an online merchant as well.

The Scoutmaster and Singature arm change things though.

I assume primarily from the increased mass. The JMW-9 Sig arm also has an additional 2.5 gms effective mass. From what I gather that changes the optimum weight range and compliance for carts? The JMW-9 indicates 7 to 13 gms and compliance greater than 10, but I cannot find the corresponding numbers for the Sig arm, if they differ. I am going to have to look into these relationships more, since I am neophyte at TTs.


Jan, I don't seem to be able to find the heavyweight counterweight. At least I don't see it on VPI's site.


In reading about others experience, I see that some have found the Dynavector 10x5 to be not enough output for their MM stage, and too much for their MC stage, so now I have another question. My MM/H MC phono stage has the following specs, and as far as I know is very suitable for MM and high output MC carts. Will 2.5 mV (which is typical for most HOMC carts I am looking at) suffice or should I be looking higher (or MM)? I need to look up the gain relationship again.

Specifications:
Circuit type: Single-Ended Class A
Gain: Phono: 36dB
Input Impedance: 47k Ohms
Output Impedance: 950 Ohms
Noise and Hum: -68dB
Frequency Response: RIAA
Tube Complement: 2-6SL7, 1- 12AU7
Inputs: 1 RCA
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1517
Registered: May-06
Neil,

FWIW I used a 0.3mv with my Rogue Magnum 99 with Tung-Sol tubes (which have a bit more punch than the Russian tubes supplied with the unit and which the spec below relate to). The volume control had to be turned up so loud that there were unnecessary harmonics. I have read a detailed article on my Rogue that states not to run it less than 0.8 mv which I now believe would be accurate.

My Glider S is documented at 2.7 mv which leaves me considerable head room with the volume control.

Here at the specs for my Rogue;

- frequency response: 1Hz-200KHz ± 1dB
- THD: <0.1%
- gain: line stage: 23dB
- gain - mm phono: 65dB
- gain - mc phono: 75dB
- RIAA accuracy: ± 0.1dB
- rated output: 1.5V
- maximum output: 30V PP
- output impedance: 350 Ohms
- dimensions: 17"W x 5½"H x 14"D
- weight: 27 lbs.
- shipping weight: 32 lbs.
- power requirements: 115/230V - 50/60Hz
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1519
Registered: May-06
Neil,

One more thing, if you can get your hands on a good 12AX7 it should up your gain. You would want one tested for low noise.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13093
Registered: May-04
.

VPI does market a Dynavector made to their specs, http://www.vpiindustries.com/products_dyno1.htm. That would lead me to believe Harvey likes the Dynavector on his arms, at least some of the VPI arms. Give a listen if you can. You can try calling VPI but they tend to not answer the phones now days.

Could be the heavyweight counterweight was not sold by VPI but was an aftermarket product. Possibly it was offered by a company no longer in business. Don't know, haven't looked for a while.

If the cartridge you settle on places the stock counterweight close to the pivot point of the arm, then there's no need for a heavier counterweight and it might not even work out well. I was thinking the counterweight I saw had a dropped design which placed the center of gravity of the counterweight beneath the pivot point of the arm, that would be an advantage if this counterweight exists. Maybe VPI sells this as the new counterweight for the 9" arm. Like I said, I haven't looked lately.

Yep, higher effective mass in the arm calls for higher mass and lower compliance in the cartridge, though those numbers have a sufficient fudge factor to allow a wide range of pairings.

When I bought the Scout I kept my RB300 since it had been upgraded sufficiently to convince me I would be swapping a pretty good arm that was paid for for a different arm that wasn't paid for. So my cartridge recommendations won't be based on the VPI unipivot arm's performance. I see the Signature arm is viscous damped, right? An undamped unipivot with a Dynavector is what I would be concerned with. I like things a bit more laid back and easy going and not insisting I listen all the time. But the Dynavector and unipivot might be a sound you like. A good unipivot is quite a performer and VPI makes good unipivots. Like I said, give a listen before you buy if at all possible.

Neil - With 36dB of gain in the phono stage alone you should be fine with a 2.5mV output. You'll probably run the vc a bit above 12 O'Clock but as long as you can get the volume level you desire from the cartridge, then you shouldn't be concerned.

Regarding 12AU7's and 12AX7's, yes, they interchange. However, they are quite different tubes as far as gain is concerned. The AX has a "gain factor" of 100 while the AU has a very low gain of 20. Exchanging these tubes could possibly upset the next gain stage in your pre amp. If the phono section feeds into the line stage for additional output, the 12AX7 might be too much. Check with the manufacturer of the pre amp before swapping tubes. If you feel like you need a bit more gain than the 12AU7 provides, you can try 12AT7's or 5751's. http://thetubestore.com/sylvania5751.html

Keep in mind that changing the gain of a citcuit can also affect its tone. http://thetubestore.com/gainfactor.html

.


.
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 352
Registered: Dec-07
Mike and Jan,

Thanks a lot for the info.

Jan, were you thinking of the Expressimo(?) heavyweight? That is one of the after market counterweights I have seen. The stock weight is currently arranged so the arm tube passes through the weight off center near the top so it has a lower center of gravity.

Sorry, forgot you were running the RB300 arm in the Scout. Yes, the JMW-9 Sig arm is viscous damped.

Jan, yes I saw that Dynavector on VPI's site as well. I'll go back and take a closer look. Maybe the dealer has one lying around.

The 36 dB gain is in the phono stage alone and feeds into my integrated. Cary tells me they match up very well.

Michael, I take it the phono stage gains listed are the total gain up to the power amp. In my case, the gain does not include the pre in the integrated which is set up for a CD input, but requires a separate phono stage for the AUX input. So, I am thinking I am OK on the gain side. I listen at fairly moderate volumes, normally about 11 o'clock to 12 o'clock for CD input straight to the integrated.

I think I will try and listen to the Dynavector and the Benz Micro Ace, at a minimum. Thanks guys for your very informative posts.
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 355
Registered: Dec-07
Jan, I re-checked that DV cart that VPI lists and it is medium output at 1 mV. It is called "special" because the std DV 20X carts are 0.3 mV and 2.8 mV. But, that would still seem to indicate that it is viewed as compatible by VPI as I see it.

I see I can get the Benz Micro Ace for $550. I was thinking $700 would be the best I could do new. So, apples to apples would seem to be the DV 20HX and the BM Ace for my setup.

Will try to listen soon and report.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1522
Registered: May-06
Neil, Be sure you are listening to an "S" class Benz Ace. It has been refined and should be significantly better than the previous generation Ace and well worth any price differences. Most dealers can take $100 off the price of the cartridge with a trade in cartridge (working or not).

My Glider is the S model.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3333
Registered: Sep-04
I don't know VPI turntables at all I'm sorry to say, but I do know Dynavectors. In my view the DV20XH is in a different space to the 10x5 with far more performance available. That said, there's something compelling about the 10x5 - it's a very nice cartridge for the money. If you were considering spending a little extra on a heavy counterweight I'd argue the money would possibly be better spent on a better quality cartridge at this stage.
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 359
Registered: Dec-07
Mike, will do. Thanks for the heads up.

Frank, thanks for the input.

Guys, it may all be for naught as the seller has apparently spaced out, blown me off, or gone on a three-day toot to Las Vegas - my offer expired with no response or action.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 8147
Registered: Feb-05
Sorry to hear that Neil...that's a nice table..keep lookin'.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1525
Registered: May-06
That wasn't Nuck almost selling one I hope.

Perhaps not, I recollect his had no tonearm and then he picked up a RB300 too.







just kidding Mr. Nuck!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 11102
Registered: Dec-04
Our HW19 is still very much a going concern, MW.
Still mulling over preamp, then the cart.
I will have room after moving in January.

Neil, thats a downer. Track him down like a dog!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 13096
Registered: May-04
.

Find him, shoot him and take the table home as a trophy.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 11103
Registered: Dec-04
Wabbit season, (hehehehehe like Fudd).

Not a jury of your peers would convict you, Neil.

But then again, consider your peers...











hmmmm...
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 11104
Registered: Dec-04
Oh, and the 'our' HW19 comment meant me and Jan, we both own it until I have it set up juuuust right.
 

Silver Member
Username: Jazzman71

Phoenix, AZ USA

Post Number: 360
Registered: Dec-07
MW, that Benz Ace was NOT an "S" so no $550 steal. So, $150 for an "S", still cheaper than a vowel from Vanna I guess.

Still mulling over preamp, then the cart.

Nuck, you're going slower than I am for crying out loud. LOL.

OK, it's down to the sporting goods store to get me a shootin' iron, Elmer Fudd signature model. And a plaid hat of course.

Poor guy's probably a commodities trader--placed an ad to raise cash, then jumped out a window. [That's actually not funny as I have heard three people that have killed themselves since this mess started, the last one being on the floor of the Brazilian Stock Exchange. Why anyone would kill themselves in a country full of Brazilian women is beyond me, but it happened.]

Silver lining -- don't know if Dayton has any buildings high enough to result in death by jumping.

Or was given an ultimatum by his wife, placed an ad, then jumped out a window.... well, let's not go there.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3363
Registered: Sep-04
Poor guy's probably a commodities trader

Probably not - if he were, a) he'd not be poor no matter what and b) he'd probably realised he might as well enjoy his vinyl while out of work...
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