Speaker challenge, not for the faint of heart!

 

Bronze Member
Username: Nikeofnargothrond

North Canton, Ohio USA

Post Number: 37
Registered: Oct-07
I have restored the old stereo console tables from the 70's for years, but now I am restoring one for myself and would like to modify it with new speakers to give me great sound. I am pretty sure I will need some high efficiency drivers. I will be replacing the current face that has a 9" woofer opening and two 2" tweeter openings above the woofer on either side. Ideally, what I would like to do is have a cabinet custom built that I can literally mount inside the existing space and have a 3-way speaker system set up in each side. This presents several problems...

My question is which high efficiency drivers (sub, mid, and tweet) can perform well in relatively small volume as I will be building an enclosure for the 3-way system?

Oh, I am also looking at checking out the Class T amplifiers for this application as well since I will have limited space for a full out amp. Again, ideally, I will use these enclosures in a revamped stereo console as my main speakers in, potentially, a 5.1 or 7.1 system.

I was also looking into potential horns, would these be ideal for this kind of application?

Any guidance will be greatly appreciated...

Thanks,
Nick B.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12987
Registered: May-04
.

On the whole, your idea is way off base. Use the console as a console. Using speakers that are at best about three feet apart is not going to work in a 5.1 system. Using speakers that close together won't even give you good stereo imaging in a 2.0 system. And boxes inside other boxes are not the route for high fidelity reproduction.

If the console works right now, I wouldn't change anything but instead just do a complete clean up and check up. Not all consoles had lousy electronics and speakers. You might be dumping something that actually has some value. You might be refinishing that Stickley table that would bring $20k as is and $500 with the new paint job.

Call Antique Electronic Supply and get some advice before you do some damage. Put that name in a search engine.

.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10784
Registered: Dec-04
And i have to wonder about large drivers in a console, shaking and vibrating with a very special resonance...
 

Bronze Member
Username: Nikeofnargothrond

North Canton, Ohio USA

Post Number: 38
Registered: Oct-07
The speakers that it came with are completely dry rotted and already removed. Not to mention the electronics are fried. The idea behind a "box in a box" is so I will have some toe-in adjustment, but will obviously be losing my horizontal distance adjustments. Being that close though, I doubt I'll need much toe-in room.

So basically then, I am looking for a speaker upgrade. Still want 3-way setup. Still need to know what to look for in a speaker to work in this type of environment? I am pretty sure I will be using a tweeter with a horn, not really sure what mid or woofer would work in a "free air" type opening...

Thoughts?

Thanks,
NB
 

Silver Member
Username: Stryvn

Wisconsin

Post Number: 819
Registered: Dec-06
"...I am restoring one for myself and would like to modify it with new speakers to give me great sound."

I don't believe you can get there with your constraints. Use the console as a console and get your 5.1 elsewhere.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Nikeofnargothrond

North Canton, Ohio USA

Post Number: 39
Registered: Oct-07
Well, like I said, potentially for 5.1, which isn't my primary objective. If it can't be done, it can't be done. I just am primarily interested in good sound. I can scratch the box in a box idea as well.

I will stick with the idea of three-way using the horns up top. I have plenty of room to install them there. I can use the existing woofer hole and will have to modify the existing holes for the tweets to make room for a mid.

Again, what kind of specs do I need in a speaker to do this? High efficiency? etc...?
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3203
Registered: Sep-04
Nick,

Why 3-way? In smaller enclosures, the less drive units interacting with each other the better. Better to go for a simple fullrange drive unit such as the JX-92 from Ted Jordan or others from Bandor or Lowther (none cheap but such performance!). Also highly recommended if using horns and low power amps such as your class-T since they won't need a power sapping crossover.

Box-in-a-box: Ensure you include Toe Out. With only 3 feet to play with, toeing out and possible slightly upward (depending on height) may be a much better solution.

Or you could abandon the idea... :-) (although you can see I've been thinking on these lines for a while)
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12988
Registered: May-04
.

Why a horn loaded tweeter? Horns are very directional, it's how they achieve their high efficiency. However, a horn loaded driver for the high frequencies placed in a typical floorstanding console will only manage to place the high frequencies at your knees. There will be a distinct lack of high frequencies even for a seated location 10 feet away.

Why a three way? You are working within a confined space and you are wanting to put as many drivers in that space as possible. You will also have to devote more money to the three way crossover which is far more difficult to design and tailor than any decent two way design. A good two way crossover can be as simple as single capacitor hung on the tweter.

Your plan doesn't really make sense when you can get sound that is just as good, if not better, from this application by using a high quality two way or even a single driver that can operate as a full range driver.

Unless you are trying to reach very high SPL's and don't care about sound quality or just counting drivers, there is no real reason for a three way system in a console. Unless you are trying to plumb the depths of the lowest octaves of bass response - which is far easier to do with an external subwoofer - you have no need for a three way system in this console where space is limited and therefore so is bass extension.

Why a T amp? Though I think most of the T amps sound quite good for the money, you are often limited to one source with a T amp and restricted to using very high efficiency speakers. It would be a far simpler task to just use a small integrated or receiver and more conventional speakers. If you were asking about a T amp for a well designed home audio system, I would be more enthusiastic than I am about this project.

When you trade for high speaker efficiency, you must either give up bass extension or increase the enclosure size. You have no options with enclosure size so why limit yourself to high efficieny speakers that will then trade off bass response? Those are laws of physics that cannot be repealed.

Isolating high quality sources inside a console is very difficult. Performance will suffer and you are not going to achieve high quality when you are forcing something to work in an inappropriate environment. In other words, you are trying to make something out of something that doesn't want to be anything but what it already is. This is the equivalent to sticking a big block Chevy engine on a scooter. What do you have when you've accomplished it all?



You say you've done this before?



Call the people I referenced above.

.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12989
Registered: May-04
.

To answer your original question, we cannot give you model numbers of drivers to use in this application. You need to determine the final enclosure type and dimensions and then get with a raw driver retailer. There will be more than a few choices you will make before they can begin to steer you in the right direction as far as drivers are concerned. At the risk of insulting you, if you don't know this much already, you really should just try to restore the console to its original value and not shoe horn in from the ground up something you don't understand.

.


.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Nikeofnargothrond

North Canton, Ohio USA

Post Number: 40
Registered: Oct-07
I have not done the speaker upgrades before, only refinishing the cabinets and sometimes gutting the electronics out and creating an almost modern LCD TV stand out of them.

I am working with a very good custom box builder right now. Once he comes up with a design to meet the needs, I will have dimensions, volume, etc...

As far as three way design goes, I am wanting to put the woofer and mid in a box. The horn will be placed above in a seperate chamber, so to speak. The main box would have the ability to be toed in or out, up or down to assist with imaging. The horn would have similar capibilities but be independent from the box containing the mid and woofer. The other advantage with the horns is the T amp. Small enough to conceal in the rear cavity with adequate ventilation. After all, there is very limited space availible for several components.

I am attempting to get some of the good, deep bass from the primary box. That's where my box guy comes in. The crossovers are of little concern to me as madisound can build just about anything anyway I want it. Regardless of some opinions of Madisound, they have always performed well for me in the past.

Frank,
Great speakers! I don't seem to be able to locate where to buy or price out the Ted Jordons though. Got any links? Something like this could eliminate the need for a mid and I could have the horn and TJ put in one box.

Spot on Frank! If I recall, you are a Dynaudio dealer? Carry TJs?

Thanks,
NB
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10787
Registered: Dec-04
NB, choosing and implementing drivers to fit in an existing enclosure is about opposite to the best way to go.
Choosing an appropriate driver(s) and knowing the specs, Thiele/Small will do to start, will guide you to cab volume and port tuning.
 

Gold Member
Username: Gavdawg

Albany, New York

Post Number: 1196
Registered: Nov-06
I am still trying to figure out why you want to do this. You can purchase equipment that will sound better (stand alone speakers) when used for the intended purpose. you should rethink placing. speakers already in enclosures inside the console. As jan stated, the sound will blow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Nikeofnargothrond

North Canton, Ohio USA

Post Number: 41
Registered: Oct-07
I started this thread to help choose speakers, in order to give specs to my box guy, then based off those speakers, will build a box. Perhaps I am not getting the proper intentions of this project across. I simply want to moderately enhance the sound of an old stereo console. I'm not looking to make a concert hall sound out of it. I just want good sound, I realize that audiophile grade sound is not likely and am not reaching that high.

The speakers that I am looking for need to be able to operate at their best in a fairly small area probably a bit larger than your typical bookshelf speaker cabinets. The max. measurements any enclosure can be is 11.5" wide x 14.5" high x 14.5" deep. This is a fairly nice sized space to work with.

As far as the reasons as to why I want to do this, is simply I enjoy old furniture and good music. Put the two together and I am a happy person.

The class t amps and horns are merely me wanting to experiment with this class t technology...nothing more. I can install it and make them look seemless, get good sound, then again, I am happy.

Frank was on the right track with letting me know about the high end full-range that work well with horns. That is the info I am looking for.

Are there any other types of full-range speakers out there (crossoverless or not) that can perform well in this environment?

Thanks,
NB
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada

Post Number: 102
Registered: Jun-08
Since imaging is not something you're going to get and not great sound, I believe you should go with a relatively cheap option. Just throwing this out but if it's just sound and not great sound, why not go for a couple sets of car speakers wired in series to get the load up to 8ohms on each channel. They are built to work in small spaces, only need low power, relatively cheap and easy to come by. For the setup you're talking about this is the most I would invest.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 12995
Registered: May-04
.

"Are there any other types of full-range speakers out there (crossoverless or not) that can perform well in this environment?"

Other types? A full range driver is a "type". And a full range driver implies a driver that covers most of the audible frequency range without using a crossover since you typically don't cross a full range driver to another driver. The exceptions are when you use a subwoofer with a FR driver or you use a super-tweeter. Just put "full range driver" into a search engine.

I would still urge you to make this project simple. If you want to build some standmount speakers for another project, you can use your horn loaded drivers and a T amp and not be restricted to the confines of a console and the imposition of sound quality it will mandate.

.
 

Silver Member
Username: Soundgame

Richmond Hill Toronto ..., Ontario Canada

Post Number: 103
Registered: Jun-08
High Nick,

I think I've got the solution for you. I would recommend you go to Parts Express and look at their extended range drivers. Very affordable, well known company and web order - convenient. There are even ratings on the products they carry.
Here's a link to one of the full range, 8 ohm, Pioneer drivers they carry:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-045
If this one doesn't work for you there are many others with dimensions and statistics provided in their online catalogue:
http://www.partsexpress.com/homeav-tab.cfm

Look under Extended Range Drivers.

All the best with it and let us know how it goes!
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 3209
Registered: Sep-04
Nick,

I've read how you want to do things and come back to the same conclusion. You have a cart and are trying to put a horse behind it. Let me explain:

Every drive unit is designed to work in a specific set of compromises vis-a-vis its enclosure. It is the drive unit that designates the size and nature of the enclosure - e.g. whether the enclosure needs to be bass reflex or sealed, and the volume it needs to encompass to provide the correct suspension for the drive unit. These parameters define the cabinet and every drive unit is different.

If you want to know more about Ted Jordan's drive units, the US distribution is here: http://www.jordan-usa.com

I am not a Jordan dealer, but I have a high regard for the drive units since I've heard a couple of speakers with the JX92s in which just make you shake your head in disbelief. For some years now I've been dreaming of building bespoke speakers based on the Jordan drivers but never seem to have the time - and I'm not known for my DIY skills.

As for Lowther, they're even more expensive as I recall...
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10812
Registered: Dec-04
Good link Frank.

How do you do that with just 7 and 1/2 fingers?
I still remember the article, and the outstanding work of the surgeons.

Is the saw still for sale?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10813
Registered: Dec-04
Hey Nick, you said not for the faint of heart, right?
Maybe Art will bid on the saw...he needs some time off....
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