I have found that I don't listen to my primary system anymore. The room isn't very good and my home office doesn't work well with the Rega R5's. So now what?
I've decided to consolidate my 2 systems into 1 with some extra gear just in case. I'm still tired of not being able to have guests with children (not to mention my own grandchildren) without worrying about what might happen to the gear.
Last weekend I rearranged the home office and it is a fine environment for nearfield listening...so here's what I'm thinking.
I'm going to keep the Mira 3 and the Apollo, sell or trade the Rega R5's and sell my P5...probably with the Dynavector cartridge.
So what speakers will I replace the R5's with...hmm...
Short list (very short)
Epos M12i Totem Rainmaker
I've already made a move for the Epos but must await a response...any comments would be welcome.
Frank I know you would welcome any change from the Rega's...any thought on how the M12is would work with the Rega electronics?
I'll be back home this evening to see what's up....
I had the chance of listening to both speakers side-by-side a while back, and they're both very nice. I do think I preferred the Totem Rainmaker at the time, but can't remember what other electronics were involved.
Check out the Audio Physic Yara monitors if you can. I love mine. They're an excellent speaker all around, easy to place, and easy to drive. I don't need a sub in my room with my music. If they can pull off Floyd, Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, and Tool without a sub, chances are pretty good most poeple won't need one either.
I haven't had a chance to write up a detailed review of them yet, which I've been planning on doing. Totems are fantastic speakers. Personally, I think these are a good deal better.
Note: Totems do not have grills, so keep the kids out of the office if you decide to go in that direction. I've noticed that kids fingers have a tendency to poke through tweeters.
Art, what kind of sound do you like? We like the Era D5s -really lush midrange, deep bass. it has a soft dome tweeter, so it depends on what you like there.
Curious about the M12, i used to like the M11s way back, but heard the 5s a few months and found them surprisingly harsh and aggressive as is in vogue with a lot of Euro speakers lately.
Totems were on the lush, smooth side. NHT Threes are still my overall favorite if you like detail and big imaging. Not perfect, but very high-end at a low price. Sealed bass too.
The new PSB Synhronies are a bit more expensive, but has the lush midrange like the D5s, but a nicer titanium tweeter, IMO.
I heard some Legacy bookshelf speakers that were surprisingly good a few months back.
I like some of the Focal bookshelf speakers, but you have to listen through all of them to find one with the right balance. Used 905s are really nice and not too hard to find. Fun, vibrant sound, but with decent lower end.
I have heard the Rainmakers in a few different scenarios. And my best friend bought a pair s/h in December. Although they are still not properly placed, and he lacks suitable stands, the Rainmakas are excellent.
Very detailed, fairly neutral, with clean, crisp highs and a gorgeous smooth midrange. I wouldn't describe it as "bloated" in any fashion. Just as it should be IMO.
Of course with 2 x 4.5" woofers, the Rainmakas cannot go very low. But what is there is very tight. I think a sub is definitely needed with them though, if you would like to "feel" the bass.
Also, the are a little tougher to drive than one might imagine. My buddy uses a Cayin Integrated Tube Amp (35 watts in ultralinear mode), and the 4 ohm spec seems to hold them back. He is looking into the 100 watt model now.
When I did hear them with SS gear at a dealer, there was a sub hooked up, and I couldn't get anyone to disconnect it. So not sure how they perform with other electronics.
At least that shows how much he likes the speaker.
Seeing that they can be had for $600 for a s/h pair. I would love a pair myself for a second system.
And yes... as mentioned, no grills. Which I think is super sexy. I like to roll with "naked" speakers. But the grommets for attaching the grill always bugs me somewhat. For that reason I have always liked the looks of the B/W speaker faces with the hidden magnet fastener. Or, as in this case, a speaker that doesn't have a grill.
Lastly, Once you put proper stands under a nice monitor, how are they "smaller" than a floorstander?
Are we speaking purely about "overwhelming" a small room with a large speaker? Or are you thinking of HUGE floorstanders.
Once the Rainmakas are on stands, I would even venture to guess that the footprint might be larger?!?!?
Although the volume of space taken up might be somewhat less.
I have never felt that smaller, monitors/standmounts were more desirebale from a size or cost perspective. Although you hear alot of people stating that their room is small, or they want to spend less money.
The price of a decent stand is going to escalate the speaker package price up to or exceeding a floorstander. And sizewise, they will more likely have the same, or larger, footprint. And if you add a sub you will in all cases, take up more space.
Just my 2 cents, although this is all known to Art already.
I'm conflicted about this thread, really. You like the R5s a lot whereas I find them too boxy and thumpy for my liking. So, all I can think is that my advice is of less help than it should be. I'll give it a stab though...
You might like the Rainmakers but they're more open and far less warm than the R5s since there's so little cabinet resonance going on. I think they're fab but I wonder if they're not warm enough for you.
The EPOS M12i is not particularly easy to drive and a fairly large box. I thought real estate was an issue in your office? I've only heard them sound good on their own light frame eighties style EPOS stands when I thought they were great. In many ways like Rega speakers with a bit extra refinement.
Some to consider:
Dynaudio Audience 42 - possibly not good enough, but works closer to walls than some.
Naim N-Sat - possibly not enough bass or warmth for you. Requires location near a rear wall for bass reinforcement. Can be located on the wall with the Naim n-bracket. Bags of fun!
Totem Mites - bit less bass than the Rainmaker but similar sonically to the Rega sound without the tubbiness.
I hear very good things about Neat speakers all the time. Worth a look?
I also hear very good things about Dali Ikon speakers. Everyone who has a set loves them and won't be parted from them.
I don't think its the overall footprint that Art is concerned about, its the size and number of drivers. Bigger speakers in this regard can overpower a small room pretty easily. Tower speakers tend to need more room to breathe than smaller monitors do.
Some of the issues in the home office do include real estate...and the effects of side firing drivers in that room.
The room is pretty unfriendly to most speakers being pretty close to a cube (10x9x8). The Epos are recommended to be at least 8 inches from the rear wall and I can give them about 9...hopefully enough.
I totally agree about monitors on stands taking up as much room as a floorstander, so it's about the sound of floorstanders in small rooms that is the issue, being a bit over general I know.
John the Era 5's are fabulous speaker. You weren't here when I owned the big (weight wise) Era sub...what a great sub. In my demo's with the Era's they are just too power hungry for me. They are among the most difficult speakers I know of to get right with amplification.
The NHT 3's are also a very good speaker however they don't seem to match up real well with my electronics. Best I've heard them perform was with a high current power amp and an Audio Research hybrid pre amp...absolutely magical. I doubt I will get magical with a Rega Mira 3 from any speaker. Best I can hope for is synergy.
The Dyn's are just flat out I'm afraid as our regional Dyn dealer is a pompous you know what. I wouldn't buy anything from them...too bad as they also sell Mac.
The Audio Physics are intrigueing and I will look into them.
BTW John it's very difficult to characterize what kind of sound I like. I like a well matched system...and there a lot of different sounds that that encompasses.
Relative to kids...my home office is off limits...no exceptions. My wife's daughter went into my office to make a phone call last time she was in town...I ran her out. NO EXCEPTIONS...it's my space to relax and not worry about my things. In a 1040 sq ft home one has to stake out some kinda territory for alone time.
Problem has been that there are presently audio systems in every room in the house making every room in the house off limits...that's not fun for anyone including me.
With my recent rearrangement of the office system I have a usable space where I can enjoy music...that's good enough...don't want to wind up like Nuck...ouch!!! Sorry Nuck but I had too man.
Stu... I see. I have never gone further than a 2 1/2 way floorstander. Not unlike a floorstanding Rainmaker. Or better said, all of my floorstanders have always been simply a bigger box with a monitor on top.
So I have never considered the number of drivers and room to breathe issues. But it makes complete sense.
Also, my rooms have always been on the larger side.
I might bring my Arivas into my office tonight to demo what they sound like in there. I have been considering making it my listening room. But it is quite small at about 12x15x9.
I bet i will fully understand once they are in there.
In my limited experience I have never owned anything with more than two woofers. Those Macintosh towers are simply intimidating. Not to mention that I probably couldn't afford them anyway.
I always thought that monitors/standmounts were simply better for imaging, detail and presentation, whereas a comparable floorstander is "full range" but lacking the detail.
Obviously this is a gross over simplification.
I do have much to learn.
And one thing I did just learn from Art, is that I dont want kids!!! ;)
We had a Mira 3 on display. I thought it was fine, maybe just a bit on the lightweight side. Seems like British amps are typically balanced one way or another for some reason. Just my impression though. On the other hand, it did do fine when we mixed it with a bit warmer, fuller speaker like PSBs. The Synchronies are tiny, powerful speakers and a bit easier to drive than the Eras, though I can't imagine it being an issue w/60W and a small room.
Fun speakers to own are NEAR 10M and 15Ms when you can find them. Kinda regret selling the last pair, they'd go great with my AI Alto. I might find them too colored now, but they had this rich, chocolaty midrange, amazingly deep bass and a nicely engaging, vibrant tweeter and imaged like crazy. I'd suspect they'd go fine with the Rega.
NHT Twos are very rich/smooth. Some people feel underwhelmed by them after hearing the Threes as they don't quite have the resolution. However, they have the rich, smooth, forgiving sound that makes everything enjoyable, if not necessarily "live".
I did Sonos and inceilings for the background in most of the house, my bedroom is where the Xds sit. But they're very much endangered by the child on the way!
The Arivas may work well in that room. The Arivas are designed to be placed against a wall and from what I've been told aren't that picky with placement.
The only way to find out if they'll work or not is to try them.
Art - Have you heard the Linn Katan? I think there's better for equal money and a good deal better for not much more, but a lot has to do with synergy and the room.
Patrick I really don't want to say the dealers name but suffice it to say that they carry Dynaudio, Mac and Linn and are the only one near us who does. Also Patrick your small room is as big as my living room...trust me you will not get a taste of what my 10x9x8 room is like in that room.
Yep Stryvn I'm selling the P5 and fixins. Stu, I'm keepin my cheap turntable...I have more than 10 tomes more titles on CD than record and it's obvious that it will always be my primary source. I Still love records but for the little I listen to them I'd rather let someone who will really get some use of the P5. I really like my cheapie, it sings for me.
Haven't heard the Katan however the Linn dealer is Dyn dealer...so I won't hear it.
As I intend to keep my little Creek amp to exchange in and out of my system with the Mira 3...I think I may go with the Epos. Have you guys read about the M12i's. They are getting great press and I like the design philosophy. Also the Epos dealer is a true gentleman...that's a dealer I will say out loud...Kurt Doslu and Echo Audio in Portland. Not to mention he will give's great trade in value...best in the business. Wish we had some more Epos owners here. I remember a young fella here awhile back who bought the Rega electronics and Epos M series floorstanders...wish he was still around.
Josh Huthinson was his name I believe. Maybe if you PM him?
Too bad about the Dyn dealer. I highly doubted you'd be sold on the Katans anyway. They're a good speaker, but nothing too special IMO. I'd take just about anything you've mentioned over them.
One more speaker not mentioned - PMC DB1+ or TB2+ They've been discontinued and upgraded, with a significant increase in price and sound quality. If you've got a dealer who hanging onto an old pair, you may want to look into them.
Thanks Stu...you're right Josh Hutchinson was his name (probably still is..lol).
Frank...I know you are in Europe and all but I don't call those little ole' M12i's big. They are almost 5 inches shorter than the standmounts that are presently in the office....lol.
What does work in that room is the B&W 610i's that are in there. Bass is under control and the highs are not overwhelming. I think they worked better with the Creek amp than they are currently with the Rega..but still very nice.
Sounds super Patrick...however I have to try to glean a few bucks from my sales to pay off my TV. The Naim dealer doesn't carry the N-Sats because they don't like 'em. Umm...that would also have to be the Nait 5i and CD5i as I couldn't glean enough money from sales for the better stuff.
I would love to hear from folks who have heard the new Mi series Epos speakers. My research says that they have alot of high end energy and that some folks call them bright (I hate bright) however folks tend to call Rega's bright and they aren't to me. Very interesting...
Others say that they can listen to them forever...as we know it's about synergy..oh and the 30 day return policy.
Kidding of course.... I assume your are referring to S-types in PDX? Yeah, they dont like Naim speakers huh?
But when I told a gent that works there that i LOVE my Arivas, he switched stance and said they sold many a pair when they were available, and they liked them a lot.
Strangely, the N-sats have the same driver and tweeter as the Ariva, so i am surprised they dont have them for demo.
perhaps if enough people requested it, they could get a pair/set for demo.
Lastly, it appears some of the peeps working there subscribe to the store owners opinions, somewhat blindly.
I can understand not "preferring" Naim speakers over others, but to outright claim they are "bad" is another issue.
And to try to push Ushers on me instead is even stranger.
Let us know what you end up trying out Art. I would love to hear your impressions. It seems we have some things in common, regarding both presentation and music prefs.
"My one year old daughter has learned how to take the grills of my MA's."
Boy have I learned that one the hard way lol.
Turns out tweeters are actually buttons. Who would've thought?
And I side with you Art. Your space is yours. That's why I told my wife that wherever we live it must have at least two things. A basement/gameroom and a garage for a shop. She can have every other room in the house. Pink dancing butterflies in the bathrooms for all I care, just leave my two rooms alone and we'll get alone fine.
That's the problem Patrick me and Visa have a been a bit too friendly in the past...lol...it's pay as you go time now.
Teri used to tell me that that the only Naim speaker she liked was the Ariva. An yeah they sure have been pushin' the Usher's and always ProAc, Spendor and Focal.
"Lastly, it appears some of the peeps working there subscribe to the store owners opinions, somewhat blindly."
Uhhh yeah...then again for Teri it's my way or the highway. Got to give her her props though she is a true pioneer in the industry and one of the most successful women to ever open an audio retail store. Her new Portland store is IMO the very nicest audio store in Portland.
Yep Paul...a man (or woman) has to have a place that is all theirs...
Hey guys got a very nice response from Josh...truly a gentleman...I'll share.
Hi Art, I do still have the M15.2i's. I have them set up in a small bedroom (11x11x8ft) and have been enjoying them every day. I have 4" fiberglass panels in the corners next to each speaker, and a further 2" panel on the front and back walls, along with 2" panels on the side walls. These treatments cleared up the sound quite a bit, especially being in a smaller room like this.
The M12's are a great speaker, in fact I auditioned them first. They are slightly more transparent than my M15's, and would probably be great for an office. I think Rega pairs very well with Epos, and the owner of the store I listened in thought so too - he had a Rega/Epos system in his home, although I think the speakers were an older series. I also auditioned an all-Rega system and can make some comparisons. The Rega speakers are more punchy, but sometimes do not have the finesse of the Epos. I listened to both the Epos and Rega in small and large spaces, and as the Epos speakers don't have as sharp of an attack as the Rega, I preferred them in the smaller space. The only downside to placing the Epos speakers in smaller spaces is that they do like some room. You'll probably find that the layers of music become more separated as you give the speakers more space. Another thing worth mentioning, and I'm sure you've noticed, is that the finish on Epos speakers is outstanding.
A lot of that echoes my feelings on the subject, though I ahven't heard the latest i-series EPOS.
If you have a Focal dealer around, it'd be well worth having a listen to the Focal Chorus 714V. Small floorstander works well at 9" from a wall. Leaner in the bass than you may be used to though. Fabulously clean mid and treble.
The Ariva was a slow-burn product for Naim. At first many traditional Naim dealers didn't much get on with the Ariva, possibly because it had a bigger presentation than is usual for Naim speakers. This is also probably a reason why Naim dealers who didn't do Naim speakers liked them quite a bit!
Over time, many dissenters (including me) came around to the Ariva and eventually I really liked them a lot. It's a shame Castle went bust and Naim couldn't offer them any longer after that. Apparently, reworking the cabinet for an alternative cabinet maker would have been too costly.
Either way, it indicates a change in the presentation of Naim's speakers which I think will be reflected in future models. They'll have a touch more weight and be easier to setup than their older models, such as SBLs which literally needed to be broken down and built up every time they were moved any significant distance - and caused much dissent in Naim dealers! Personally, I started off hating SBLs, went through a 'respect phase' and ended up loving them like old friends. In many ways I've heard them do things which were never beaten. (They'd be really good against a wall in your office Art, but they'd show up the electronics probably.)
Guys....life is good. I just told my wife that I just can't give up my Rega R5's and she thought that was good...huh!
So I'll be replacing the ancient Boston Acoustics A120's in the HT with my R5's and running a hybrid there with the Creek 4330 and Rotel RCD971 along with the Oppo 981 and Yamaha AVR...still using the ancient polks for rears until I can find better (and smaller). My B&W's will go into the closet for now after the Epos arrive next week...oh yeah did I forget to mention that I ordered the M12i's...yup the deed is done. Wow can't wait!!!!!
I must say that so far I feel about these M12i's as Stu does about his Audio Physic's. I'm in love...wow! They've only run about 3-4 hrs and they are impressive to say the very least.
Just to let you all know, and I love this cause you will all think I'm nuts...which is totally cool by me. I had not heard the new M12i...I bought these off the memories I had of the old 12's and descriptions of the new upgrades...special order...no returns....what a gamble. I like these light years better than I did my ProAc Studio 110's.
Still getting used to the CA. As you know my system is a mixed HT/music system. For listening to music the CA TOTALLY blows away my old Pioneer in a very big way (still using my Bryston monos to drive the fronts, of course). For HT I'm still getting used to the CA, it's much different than the Pioneer.
Very cool. I'm running a hybrid HT/Music system in the living room with the Rega R5's, the Yamaha AVR and my Creek 4330. The Yammie is off completely for music and it's just the sweet little Creek and the R5's. Listened to that combo for the first time this morning and it sounds very good...but the Mira 3, Apollo and Epos system in the home office is a kicker.
Glad everything's working out Art. There's nothing like firing up the stereo and getting caught up in the music rather than listening to the equipment.
So Frank you may have seen that I bought (due to budget concerns) the Atacama Nexus 6 stands for my 12i's. Do ya think I should mass load the center pillar?
BTW I do really like the stands for the 12's. Epos hasn't come up with a special stand for them yet and these look similar to the ones they are picture with in the ads (though I know they are not).
If you try it, don't expect to like it. I tried mass loaded stands under the EPOS and I felt they kllled the presentation, making them dull, lifeless, boring. The speaker comes from a design that really worked best on light rigid stands and there it has a real fleetness of foot, although it doesn't have as deep a bass response as one would expect for such a large speaker. Mass loading gives an impression of greater weight, but like I said earlier, I felt it slowed the speaker down at the same time.
Well I'm bummed, I accidentally put a nick in one of the speakers last night. 35 years in the hobby and it's the first time I've ever done that...oh well. I switched sides for where they sit and it can't be seen...still caused a sleepless night.
Thanks Frank. Boy you can sure tell you're in Europe. Other than Paradigm Atoms as rears in an HT these are the smallest speakers I've ever owned and I consider them to have very good bass for such a tiny speaker.
It's a new day and I've learned a couple of lessons relative to sound with the speakers...a little furniture repair pen or shoe polish and the nick will barely be noticeable...however the audio lessons learned over the last couple of days...priceless. More on that later.
