Creek Classic 5350SE - too bright?????

 

New member
Username: Arturgorniak

Post Number: 1
Registered: May-08
Well........I have this amp for two months now and I have to tell you that I am disappointed with it. After two hours of listening my ears bleed....I am actually thinking about selling it and invest in Tubes (Primaluna Pro Logue one or two) if sound will not change. I heard that Classic 5350SE has a long "break-in" period so I still have a hope to like the amp.....Being honest, the difference in sound between Denon pma -2000 IV and Creek classic 5350se, is very subtle. I loved excellent dynamics and depth of soundstage with Denon and all I love about my new Creek is its outstanding headphone output!!!! It is simply amazing and confusing as I can listen to music for hours (using my Sennheisers HD-580) without fatigue and when the time comes to use my Spendors S5e - things change???? I have small listening room (acoustically corrected with panels) and I do not listen to my setup at high volume level - I always thought that Spendors are one of those speakers (just like Dynaudio) that sound good at low levels. Well, I could be wrong. I also do not like soundstage image projected by 5350SE - it is very shallow and hard to pinpoint source localization.

Here is the system:
Denon DCD-1650 AR
Creek Classic 5350SE
Spendor S5e
Tara Labs Prism power cords
Nordost Blue Heaven Rev.2 interconect
Audioquest Slate biwired speaker cables

I am looking for warm sound that lets me listen to my music without fatigue for hours. Do you think that changing source (CDP) would help?


Here is music material I listen to the most:
Jan Garbarek, Miles Davis, Cassandra Wilson, Diana Krall, Norah Jones, Herbie Hancok, Fourplay, Moody Blues, Tomasz Stanko, Dave Brubeck, Tord Gustavsen, Dead Can Dance, Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Mark Knopfler, Tracy Chapman, Loreena McKennitt, King Crimson, Leonard Cohen, Christy Baron, Badi Assad, Rebeca Pidgeon, Madaline Peyroux,L ed Zeppelin etc.

Anyway, I will keep you guys posted if something change - I also appreciate all suggestions and comments!!!!!!

Kind regards,
Arthur Gorniak
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 6863
Registered: Feb-05
Before you throw out the baby with the bathwater you may want to explore room treatments, cables by the same manufacturer...with your gear I would like van den Hul, and perhaps you could borrow a better source to see if things improve.

I listen to much of the same music you do and have a Creek amp that I like alot. Your Spendors are not bright most certainly...

If you choose after trying any or all of the above to go with Prima Luna keep in mind that I had a problem with brightness with the Prologue 2...I would recommend the the Prologue 1 whhich I've heard with the Spendor's (and a much better source) and they sounded very good.
 

New member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 2
Registered: May-08
I will give it a try......I am going to put at least 100 hours on it before making final decision. I have six - large acoustic panels in my listening room plus thick carpet on the hardwood floor. The components are fed through Monster Cable HTS 5100 MKII power conditioner. Do you think cables will make that much of the difference? Does the Nordost's Blue Heaven sound harsh? What about Audioquest ? I was thinking about trying Rega Apollo, Cambridge 840C, or maybe one of the Creek's own sources like Classic, or Destiny. The idea of adding Power amp Classic A53 and bi-amped my spendors , came across my mind but I do not think it will help to remove the brightness and fatigue.
Do not get me wrong - this amp sound decent,it is just after two disks I am starting to lose listening pleasure.

Art, what source and speakers do you use? Do you have the same amp as I do or Destiny? Do you think bi-amping would made my spendors sing?

One question that might be out of this thread topic: what are the shortcoming of Tube amps compare to transistors and vice-versa ? Will the prologue one drive nicely my 86dB Spendors ? Am I going to get warm sound with holographic soundstage and decent low contest???

I know it is too many questions but I hate to get rid of that amp as I would finally prefer to focus on music rather than on constant equipment debate - set it right for the first time and then spend your money on music material....lol

Thank you for all help.......
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 6868
Registered: Feb-05
I had a similar thing going about a year and a half ago and took all of the gear back to my dealer and traded out for an all Rega setup. It isn't the last word in anything but with my van den Hul cables I can now just focus on music and not upgrades.

I have the Creek 4330 in my second system and enjoy it immensely. To check out my systems just click on my profile it's all there.

I listened to your speakers with the Prologue and it worked well...can't play real loud but if you're at all like like me you probably don't play all that loud anyway.

Your Spendor's work well with Naim gear as well. You may want to consider the new Nait 5i and CD5i (both the new italic verisons) or for less money the Rega Mira 3/Rega Apollo combo...great music and will drive your speakers respectably.

Then there is the possibility that you don't really like the Spendor's...

Alot to think about I'm afraid.
 

Bronze Member
Username: James_lehmann

Post Number: 62
Registered: Nov-06
I listen to very similar sorts of music to you, perhaps with a bunch more world music and electronic/ambient stuff too.

I can't say I've compared all those different models and brands that you have, but I can say that, thanks in no small part to this Forum, I have arrived at Naim and I'm not leaving anytime soon!

Even the entry level Naim combo, ie Nait5i + CD5i with NACA5 cable (which is what I have feeding PMC TB2's) is a quite awesome musical experience that I suspect might be extremely hard to better for the money.

I feel Naim deliver purely what's on the CD with nothing added and nothing taken away - now for some folks that's not what they want, but if you like to feel you're really 'peering into' the music through a transparent window then seek no further. Naim's the word brother!
 

New member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 4
Registered: May-08
Art,
thank you for your time trying to help me......I do not really care about "analytical"-"uncolored" sound. I want something that I can listen to for long period of time without it killing my ears. I do not listen to music very loud (12 o'clock with creek's passive pre-amp). I heard rega equipment is very forward sounding that is why I want to be careful with switching my source to Apollo or Saturn. Somebody once told me that all integrateds below $4000 have this "artifical" sound that is not designated for long listening session but rather for short impression ... and I think that what Naim is famous for... I do not care much for "musicality" (what does it mean anyway???) as the creek is very musical,dynamic......I also had a chance to listen to Krell KAV - 400IX in my system and , boy, I was impressed - Huge 3D soundstage with excellent controlled bass.......it was great experience for an hour and than I had to leave my listening room as I could not handle music anymore. Creek is way better but still there is something that bothers me - Do you guys think that with some burning-in time things should sort out or I should start selling my system now ??? Like I said before my listening room is small - speakers are 8 feet apart,2 feet from back wall and 9 feet from my ears ( I will try to post picture) with three large acoustic panels on the back wall, two large panel on the side walls and two behind me. There is virtualy no echo in this room ( as I can really test it clapping my hands.) I am looking to replace my Blue Heavens with Van Den Hul the first with a hope for warming the upper end but my question is - will it work???? You said that you have some "bright" experience with prologue two - Could you tell me a little bit more about it????

James,
Thank you for respond. I have to tell you that I had a chance to listen to Naim system and it is not even close to what I am looking for . Like you said it was great musical experience but for me it was short lasting. I also had a chance to listen to Rega Saturn with Rouge integrated (tubes) and Revel Monitors (forgot the model) and that sound sweet. The problem is that I do not want to spend $8K for the new system!!!!!

Kind regards gentlemen,
Arthur Gorniak
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1285
Registered: May-06
Arthur,

I had the Creek 5350 SE which worked fine for me when I had a Denon or Rotel CD player. I was using Monitor Audio Silver 8i's at the time. When I upgraded to the Apollo I went through a similar experience where I thought that the Creek was just all over with its presentation and too bright for me. I halved it by putting in a Carver M-4.0t amp and using the Creek for a pre-amp only. Eventually I went with a Rogue tube pre-amp.

Several iterations later I have my dream set up now. Unfortunately I do not think you will find satisifaction with the Creek in your setting or set up.

There are other good used integrated amplifier out there you could find in your price range made by Rogue Audio Tempest II, Conrad Johnson CAV50, Jeff Roland Cocerto, or of course the McIntosh line of integrated amplifiers. I would think that you could be pleased with any of these.
 

New member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 6
Registered: May-08
Mike,
thank you for your advice....I still have some hope with my current setup however I am very close to investing in better amp and new CD player. The true is that I do not like buying used gears as I am very picky about my equipment's condition. One possibility is the Rouge integrated or pre,power amp combination. Have you ever had a chance to listen to PrimaLuna Prologue series amps? or Audio Electronic - SUPER AMP MK2 (made by carry - http://www.musicdirect.com/product/72711)

I want to point something interesting: I spent some time today with speakers placement and I set speakers' backs parallel with back wall (without toeing them in) and I have to tell you that the sound became WAY warmer with HUGE soundstage that made me listen to my CDs with pleasure again!!!!!!! I never thought about trying this with my spendors!!!!!!! tonight, have a long session with sir. Miles Davis to see if I can stand his screaming jazz fusions. I just had Jan Garbarek's tenor saxophone and it sounded....well, like never before - did not teared my brain apart.
See, I do not want to give up that easily.... for some reason Creek got stereophile Class A amp, and Spendor were Class B with many outstanding reviews on international levels....what is going on????

I will try to upload picture of my listening room......Upload}
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10232
Registered: Dec-04
Nice room, Arthur.
Keep trying the speaker placement, it may be very specific for you. That may be to within single degrees or millimetres.

Keep trying and you will find the best placement.

Also bear in mind, the placement of your seat may not permit the best results, your seating position may need to change as well.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1287
Registered: May-06
Very nice room indeed!

That is good news about the progress you made. Sticking with the speaker / seating placements will net you success no matter what gear you run.

Sorry, I cannot help with the two brands you have asked about.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 305
Registered: Jul-07
Arthur, on your other post in the cdp section you mention a monster power conditioner that you didn't list above. I would try taking that out of the mix and see what you hear that's different (if anything).

Also, as has already been suggested, I would try borrowing a different source from a friend or a dealer, just to see what you hear that's different.

You have a lot of room treatments up and carpet on the floor. What is your midrange and bass response like ? Do all the frequencies seem balanced ? When you're listen to Miles, can you clearly hear all of the band members ? Drummer (cymbals, snare, kickdrum, highhat ?), bass, etc. When Miles plays with a mute, how does that sound ? When the drummer uses brushes on the snare or cymbals, how does that sound ?
 

New member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 7
Registered: May-08
Hello Chris,
currently , monster power conditioner is in my livingroom setup and now I use great tripplite power stabilizer with my creek. Anyway, I really do not belive that just a source is the problem here. I did spent some time last night listening to "Kind Of Blue" and unfortunately that still sounded very bright.( tried to listen to it through my HD-580 and sounded the way I would love my speakers to sound) I could hear some instrument separation but not much (expected from $1500 amp) it is very hard to separate single musicians with my setup. The only time I was able to do that was when I had a Krell KAV-400IX at home. My bass is surpassingly well controlled , but mids and highs are where the problem begins.....there are some Chesky record albums (Marta Gomez-Cantos De Agua Dulce, Christy Baron-I thought About You ) where Creek sounds sweet with huge holographic soundstage and there are records like ECM Charles Lloyd Quartet - Rabo de Nube whereI can hear Jason Moran playing piano in my right speaker instead of left and double-bass played by Reuben Rogers ( that plays right behind Charles Lloyd) is impossible to pinpoint - its everywhere (the same with percussion played by Mr. Harland). So another issue we got her is sound engineering - and that is why I am not particularly picky about these qualities - just want to have "warm music experience".
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 306
Registered: Jul-07
Thanks Arthur. When you referred to "albums" and "records" are you literally talking LP's, or are you just using old terms to describe CD's. Just checking. I think you mean CD's but wanted to be sure.

If you have some discs that sound great, and some less so, I tend to think the issue is less room related and more equipment related. That was my experience. I did a lot with my room and things didn't change significantly. Changing rooms and speaker positions CAN have a huge effect, but my room ended up not being too awfully bad. There were just certain instruments, voices, etc that didn't fair very well with the equipment I had. The reason I brought those examples up (muted trumpet, cymbals, etc) is that I haven't found them to be well reproduced on a lot of equipment. They get very aggravating even.
 

New member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 8
Registered: May-08
Thank you Chris for your suggestions and time you take to help me. Yes, Mr. Jazz's trumpet (on "In A Silent Way" 24Bit remastered in 2002 ) kills my ears even when listen on low levels, Wayne Shorter's soprano saxophone is very hard to distinguished from overall bright Davis's notes.

On the other hand 2005 Legacy Edition of 'Round About Midnight is completely oposite - sweet (tube like) highs with decent soundstage.....but still fatiguing in the long run.

Yes, for some reason I use Album and Records interchangeably to indicate CDs.....I do not even know why....lol
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 307
Registered: Jul-07
Yep, soprano sax is another killer. A big part of my fix was updating my source. That was the biggest single improvement I made. After you've settled on any room and speaker positioning tweaks, if it's possible I would see if you can bring home a different cdp or dac from a dealer. It isn't going to hurt, and you might be surprised by the extent of the improvements.

If you haven't already tried it, I'd also remove ANY power conditioning units. Go straight into the wall, especially your amp, or into a regular power bar.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 6870
Registered: Feb-05
Muted trumpet can be an ear buster live and unamplified depending on the mute. Not being able to distinguish it from the alto however is not good. Interesting Arthur...those were some of the issues I was having with the Prima Luna and ProAcs...I changed sources and cables and on and on and problem it never went away it just changed character. I thought I would never enjoy recorded music again...now I like listening to every system in my house...it's all about synergy.

"Somebody once told me that all integrateds below $4000 have this "artifical" sound that is not designated for long listening session but rather for short impression ..."

Somebody was wrong...

I totally disagree with your statement about Naim. If you read the Naim forum you will find many folks who have been listening to Naim for many years and quite happily. The thing with Naim is you have to listen to their recommendations relative to cabling etc.

I absolutely hate bright audio systems so I wouldn't like Naim if I thought it was.

Anytime someone wants detail without any hint of edginess my default recommendation is Simaudio...great gear at a reasonable price. Not a bit forward sounding.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10235
Registered: Dec-04
"Somebody once told me that all integrateds below $4000 have this "artifical" sound that is not designated for long listening session but rather for short impression ..."

Somebody was wrong...

Oh yes, somebody was very wrong, indeed.

To discount, or include a piece, purely based on price is a disservice to some very synergetic and enjoyable componants.

Price only comes into the discussion when it is time to pay.

The new Sim stuff (cd--1 and i1) might be just the ticket to have a listen to,Arthur.
 

Silver Member
Username: Nout

Post Number: 124
Registered: Mar-06
Somebody once told me that all integrateds below $4000 have this "artifical" sound that is not designated for long listening session but rather for short impression

Yep on my $500 Marantz I only listen 10-15 seconds of every cd I own, for evaluative purpose only.
The sound is so horribly artificial, I simply cannot stand it for longer than 15 seconds
Now when I really want to enjoy music I go to nearest audio shop, with me a huge stack of cd's, a toothbrush and clean underwear.
I listen to the cd's on a $4000 amp, while ordering Chinese food and setting up the stretcher...

Price only comes into the discussion when it is time to pay

Good one :-)
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10238
Registered: Dec-04
Thanks, Nout.

It is true, I believe.

Now come close, with what your budget will get you.

There comes a ime when credit card turns into line of credit.
THAT is reality check time.
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 309
Registered: Jul-07
Arthur, there is some quite brilliant gear available in the under $1000 category in both source, amp, and speaker. You can put together a whole system that sounds fantastic for under $4000.
 

New member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 9
Registered: May-08
Hello Everybody,
and thank you for all comments and suggestions. I have to tell you that I am very confused at this point. I have parallel thread regarding warm CD player (in CD player sectionhttp://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/483310.html
and some say that overall brightness, might be a speaker problem (which I find hard to believe as Spendors are warm in general as I heard them with Rouge tubes..) and "Spendors are not really that good of a brand - their midrange and highs are compared to Klipsch???????" I have to tell you that I disagree with that one.
Chris,
why do you suggest disconnecting my power conditioner - to be honest I never even thought about it. Do you have any non-positive experience where power conditioner influenced negatively the system's sound? I will experiment with this one on the weekend.
Art,
do not get me wrong - Naim makes excellent components but they are simply not for my ears.....all this audio is very subjective!!!!!
As you all see I do not own $4000 amp and I am far from it (....well maybe one day) I just said what I was told by one of the high-end audio dealer.....and that is why I am here getting all suggestions, and advices from more experienced listeners!!!! ( for which I am very thankful ) doing everything I can to keep my setup (well, it is time to change my CD player for sure....) as in the end music should be the destination??
Nuck,
I am checking into Simaudio market to see if there are any CD players that will fit my budget and maybe I will get nice used one ( ....oh, I hate buying used..lol) as I heard many positive words about products made by this brand.

Well,
what I got so far is excellent soundstage (thank you eCoustic members) from my spendor/creek combination. Next step will be to change my nordost blue heaven to Van Den Hul The First which hopefully warm my system up a little, than I will experiment with power conditioner (in-out the system), finally I will give my creek some time to burn - in ,as it does not even have 100 hours put.
Spendors S5e are not the easiest speaker to drive. Having 3.8 Ohms minimum with 86dB sensitivity require efficient amp that will drive them to their fullest potential so I was thinking maybe borrow Creek A53 power amp and try bi-amping combination to see if that helps ( I think it was on this forum that somebody said that he heard spendors driven in bi-amp Creek combination and they sounded amazing) - there is still some room to experiment before making final decision.

Talking about music - I just picked some CDc by Sir. Jazz and I strongly recommend one of them - "Seven Steps To Heaven" (24 bit remastering in 2005) which is Miles first recording with Herbie Hancock. The music is simply phenomenal with outstanding resolution and instrument/musician separation. Sounds very sweet even on my "forward sounding" set-up. Anyway, you can't go wrong for $11

I also attached some more pictures of my listening room that I just took.......
UploadUpload
 

Silver Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 225
Registered: Oct-07
I made the following fixes to my system:

Removed amp from Power Conditioner.
This opened things up and allowed the amp to breath. I had argued the OPPOSITE for a long time but finally proved myself wrong. Test this yourself.

Dropped an exclusive 20 amp line to the stereo. Amp/Sub plug into a PS Audio Soloist outlet. The rest continue thru the power conditioner.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1288
Registered: May-06
Arthur,

I would suggest going to Guitar Center or a shop like that and picking up one 24" by 48" Auralex panel and mount it horizontally on the wall behind your listening chair with the middle being in line with your ears. It will be about $30 USD and comes in dark gray or marroon.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2715
Registered: May-05
Is it just me, or does the ad on the side cover half of the post?
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2716
Registered: May-05
Arthur,

You've got some great gear, and Ikea has obviously been good to you.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2717
Registered: May-05
I keep posting, sorry...

Maybe I missed it if its been covered, but perhaps the brightness is a reflection of the
sound from the back wall?

Try a putting pillow or something something bulky like a blanket
behind your head that extends wider than your ears.

If that tames some of the brightness,
you may want to look into some sound
absorbtion behind your chair.
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1289
Registered: May-06
Stu, that is why I posted at 3:00 to get Auralex...LOL

Another way of doing what you suggest is taking a gatefold album cover and hold it behind your head in a "V" shape or cupping your hands behind your ears.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2718
Registered: May-05
Mike, can't read all of what you said because of the ad banner (hence hitting return after every few words).

The LP gatefold cover is actually the opposite of what I'm suggesting. That'll reflect sound into his ears,
which may be what's happening by having his chair that close to the back wall.

I was trying to suggest something make-shift to place behind his head to absorb the reflections going
straight to his ear, which may be the culpret of the brightness.

If the sound absorbtion helps, he can get a permanent sound absorber that does a better job.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 6877
Registered: Feb-05
What is it with these ads in the middle of everthing...can't even read the posts.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2719
Registered: May-05
I think the problem is that Arthur didn't stack the pics (hit return in between), but posted them side by side, forcing the margins to expand. That probably caused the ads over the posts.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2720
Registered: May-05
... margins to expand.
That probably caused the ads to overlap the posts.

Maybe start a new thread so people can actually read it?
Or pick it up over in his other thread?
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 1527
Registered: Jun-07
When I use Mozilla Firefox(which I always do), it shows up just fine. Interesting....
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1292
Registered: May-06
I was just starting to type what Nick posted. On Mozilla Firefox the Arthur's pictures are stacked, not side by side, and the ads are not overlapping anything.

Mozilla Firefox download is free.

http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/
 

Gold Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 1528
Registered: Jun-07
I use firefox 100 percent of the time when I am at home. And I have never seen the ad problems, or pic problems listed. The way IE7 handles the HTML coding for picture tags is absolutely brutal. Use FireFox people.lol. IE is adding crap to your temp and local setting files as we speak.lol blurb.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 11
Registered: May-08
Yes, I do use Mozilla Firefox on my PC and Safari on my mac and lately I have been using safari on my PC (highly recommended). Going back to the audio topic. I will do some experimenting with power conditioner as well as with Panels behind my ears and I will keep you posted.
I found the power conditioner issue highly interesting and I would love to hear more feedback from anybody that have some experience in this matter.
Here is the line conditioner I use in my system now:http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=2832
It stabilize output voltage from incoming changes....I had my amp plugged directly to the wall for couple hours and it seems to sound exactly the same. My opinion is that ,if any,power conditioner can have minimal effect on dynamic aspect of music rather than resolution or warmness but like I said before I would like to hear your opinions.....

Here is the link to the ATS panel company that I use (budget minded only....lol):http://www.atsacoustics.com/
I am also thinking about adding two 24 x 12 x 2 panels above my sitting position and one on the left hand side of the window (behind my "blue bulb" light) on the speaker height.

I have one more question for technical lovers - why 24-bit remastering sounds in general warmer than 20-bit ones??
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 317
Registered: Jul-07
Arthur, I've never used a power conditioner....for two reasons. I live in a rural area away from power consumers of consequence by 50 miles. I also have a dedicated circuit from my panel to my. So I just don't think I need one.

Secondly, I've read an awful lot about conditioners that don't do anything, or worse still, do more harm than good. I have read about some good ones (from Blue Circle for example), so I'm sure there are some out there, but I had read enough negative stuff that I thought I'd throw it out there as something to explore. It doesn't seem to be the issue based on your experiment, so I guess that rules that out.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 12
Registered: May-08
Couple hours of tryout is definitely not enough to tell the difference for sure so this weekend I will spend some time experimenting with power conditioner. I live in the center of city so I bet the noise is on high level. My line conditioner have seven LEDs that shows level of incoming voltage and I have to tell you that early morning and after 10 at night the LEDs shows either low voltage (around 100V) or very high (around 128V) so I found using conditioner with stabilization a good analogy.......but only if that has a good influence on the music!!!!! Designers of audio components always take voltage changes into consideration so maybe there is no need of doubling it???????

If anyone wants to get some tortures - I strongly recommend "Porgy And Bees" by Miles Davis (20-Bit remastering in 1997).....great music material but KILLER to the ears..... especially intro to the first piece (Buzzard Song)
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1294
Registered: May-06
Arthur, I received similar advice on power conditioners from Frank A., NmyTree, Jan, and Nuck. I have things with moving parts plugged into the power conditioner and that plugs into my voltage regulator (see my profile). My pre-amp and amps are plugged directly into the wall outlet.

I have found improved spatial placement of the instuments, timing was improved, and I could turn my volume down for two reasons. Better clarity at lower level listening and higher power output.
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2927
Registered: Sep-04
Can't read this thread. Mods: Anythign you can do about this? It's caused by the pictures Arthur put up.

My Porgy and Bess is a vinyl original. No 20-bit limitations here sunshine! :-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Myself

Post Number: 27
Registered: Jan-08
Arthur,
i think you really should first try putting a lot lot of "cloth dolls" in the "middle" of the two speaker that is right in between of the two machine sitting on the rack.

the over brightless will be gone. please see my post in your another thread for details.

don't spend a dime on changing equipment...you just need to play with room acoustic to get a balance
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 14
Registered: May-08
I am having late night session with Just relased Marcin Wasilewski's "January" and I can't believe how good my Sennheiser HD-580 sounds amplified by Creek!!!!! Not even a tad bright.......zero fatiguing......!!!!!! And actually it sound so warm and delicate that I have to be careful not to fall asleep

myself,
thank you for advices but I am afraid I do not get what you mean by "dolls". Sorry, but could you explain a little bit clearer?????
 

Bronze Member
Username: Myself

Post Number: 28
Registered: Jan-08
Arthur,
Cloth dolls like Teddy bears, Micky Mouse...do a "picture" search in Google...clothed dolls simply absorp bright treble and improve the bass...the more dolls the less brightness...must try before even thinking wasting money with buying other gears

please see my post in your another thread for detailed description of mixing dolls with wood and steel.

enjoys
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10254
Registered: Dec-04
Do they offer 'dolls' like Miss January instead of the mouse?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 15
Registered: May-08
myself,
I would prefer other solutions than having ten or twenty dolls sitting in my listening room........maybe placing more panels behind my equipment would help..... I will do some experiments.

Today I am going to local dealer to audition some tube amps......I will let you know how did it go soon.....
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 17
Registered: May-08
I came back from the dealer CONFUSED as never before. I spent three hours listening to Genesis I60 integrated tube ($3600) http://www.dagogo.com/GenesisI60.html that was sourced by Arcam FMJ CD and driven Revel M22 monitors ($2500) in quite large acoustic-corrected room....
The way this system sounded was very similar to my - I still considered it very bright and to be honest I prefer sound of my system better( , I think it was Art that said he had some brightness problem with Prima Luna Prologue Two.........)
When I told the dealer what I think about the system he said that this amp is not to be considered bright at all (what is wrong with me???).......to make long story short. I described my problem and he said to play with cables so I borrowed Cardas Crosslink to replace my nordost blue heaven (this supposed to help as he insisted) and here come another dissapointment........I do not hear any difference between Cardas and Nordost at all!!!!!! My CD has two outputs so I connected Cardas to CD amp's input and Nordost to AUX input. I can directly compare them by switching back and forth......George Cardas recommends to break the cables in for at least a week but to be honest I do not believe the performance will change drasticly......and quadlink suppose to be very " warm" cable?????

I plugged my Amp directly to the wall (skipping conditioner) and I do not hear any difference also........


What is next????????? no clue yet
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 10256
Registered: Dec-04
AG, this is not meant to be offensive at all, OK?
Have you had your ears cleaned and your hearing checked in the last while?
Again, n offence, Stu mrntioned it a while back to me, and I had an ear cleaning done.
Kinda funky, but OK overall.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 18
Registered: May-08
Nuck,
Well I had that done today when I spent 30 minutes with $50K Conrad Johnson Setup that I can't afford...........and than I had conflict with reality listening to my system.....

P.S.
I had my hearing exam done three months ago and it is well above avearge...( 22Hz-18KHz) - I sleep and drive my car with earplugs

And I AM NOT GIVING UP ..........Nordosts Blue heaven ( in 10 out of 10 condition) is for sale ,if anybody interested ,and I just ordered four smaller acoustic panels ( 12 X 12 X 2 ) to be placed behind my listening spot. I am going to keep Cardas quadlinks interconects and will get new speaker cables soon - probably from Cardas also. I also need to find the dealer in my area that has Simaudio as I want to audition Moon CD-1 CDP.........
 

Gold Member
Username: Mike3

Wylie, Tx USA

Post Number: 1297
Registered: May-06
AG,

Did you buy deflective panels?

You need absorption behind your listening chair.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Myself

Post Number: 29
Registered: Jan-08
AG,
You just need to put ONE mid-sized micky mouse or teady bear in-between of the two equipment and you will hear the difference

anyway, if you had done a lot of this and that and even consider something that cost 50K, why didn't you try something that is free of charge?

just place a doll and test
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 318
Registered: Jul-07
Arthur, nothing wrong with you. Actually it's a good thing. You know what you want, which is half the battle. You'll get there. I think the cdp needs to be swapped out with something else. A Sim CD-1 isn't a bad place to start.

Myself, why the persistence with the dolls ? A throw cushion or pillow will do the same thing, would it not ? That's all I use, and it works fine. But he's talking bleeding ears hear, not just trying to take the edge off a compressed recording.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 19
Registered: May-08
Here is what is going on......after a weekend spent with Cardas Quadlink and Micro Twin ( not even burned-in yet) interconnects and having the amp's power cable connected directly to the wall I can say that the sound of my system got way WARMER and SMOOTH (tube like) plus maybe the amp got finally burned-in????? The Nordosts are for sale on Audiogon and I will be getting Quadlinks ( and maybe even Crosses interlinks) soon. The next step will be replacing my speaker cables - I will also go with Cardas ( I love my audio dealer for recommending Cardas brand to me!!!!! ) but did not decide with which type to go yet (bi-wired Quadlink probably). I did a lot of reading on George Cardas' website and I strongly believe in influence that cables make on the system.....I spoke with George in person (describing my situation) and he told me to give couple of weeks before I start to re-discover the magic of my system and cables (or money back guarantied).....
As soon as I get my panels I am going to place them behind my listening chair and on the wall next to right speaker.
Chris,
I want the CD-1 to be my final step not the first one!!!!


I also discovered that Creek played on low level sounds extremely nice and smooth. The problem starts about 12 o'clock (which doesn't mean much as 5350SE uses passive pre-amp) where it sounds dry and clinical which shows me that the amp has a problem with driving my Spendors. One more possibility than - Creek A53 Power amp and bi-amping!!!!
 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 2938
Registered: Sep-04
12 o'clock is very often considered the maximum output of the amplifier when used with a line level source such as CD players. Beyond that, many amps are being overdriven. Of course, the extra volume is handy when wishing to play lower output devices such as turntables via phono stages. Typically, many phono stages don't have enough gain to be as loud as a CD player in order to keep the sound to noise ratio down. Therefore, typically 12 o'clock on a CD player sounds as loud as a turntable through a phono stage at 3 o'clock.

Of course if your speakers are hard to drive, you run into the edge of the amplifier's performance envelope more quickly.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arturgorniak

Allentown, PA US

Post Number: 20
Registered: May-08
Well,
Mike Creek claims that this amp can be used up to 5 o'clock with no distortion because of passive preamp........
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