NHT Classic 3's...Are they worth the coin?
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page| Thread | Last Poster | Posts | Last Post | |
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| Archive through September 01, 2008 | Stu Pitt | 100 |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2971 Registered: May-05 | "But why do they charge $400 for a remote for the b-100sst, that sounds shady to me, who charges for a remote these days?" I thought it was $500  I think its a little absurd too. But, have you ever held a Bryston remote? It could be used as a deadly weapon if the need ever arised. Not to mention that it's got to last for a minimum of 20 years. The B100 and most pre-amps can be controlled by a universal remote, which eliminates the $350-$500 extra charge. The B60 and BP6 can't be controlled by a universal unless they have a Bryston remote. Those two don't have the motorized volume control built in as standard. The rest do, from what I've read. Regardless, $350 - $500 (depending on model) is a little ridiculous. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7666 Registered: Feb-05 | Post before last...nicely done Stu. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 367 Registered: Mar-04 | "Amps that supposedly have PRaT don't add PRaT, they simply let it through". So then it is the source that has the prat? No Stu I have not seen the bryston remote though I imagine like all it's products it is built like a tank. If a universal can be used that would be great for bryston owners. The onix cdp I purchased from av123 has a solid metal remote that could knock someone out cold if wielded correctly. I hope I do not have to change the battery on it, the whole back pops out I believe, though there is no easy way to do this! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7667 Registered: Feb-05 | No Id...it's the music. The source and amp simply get out of the way and let it through...PRaT that is. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1799 Registered: Jun-07 | Well said Stu and Art. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 432 Registered: Apr-08 | You three want to get into a circle jerk? Because that's all this forum seems to be most of the time. One person says something, the others, like sheep, say 'what he said'. In any case, when I listen to the NAD, I don't hear PRaT, you're right, I hear the dynamics and intensity of the music IF IT IS THERE. You guys think that an amp can put PRaT there by measuring badly, then say 'oh, it's just being transparent'. Doesn't work that way! Either a) your amps is distorting the signal, similar to what a B&W speaker does, adding an illusion of PRaT or you're going by what you expect to hear and program that expectation into the next person. Not sure which, could be a little of both. An NAD *measurably* has less 'sound' than these other amps, to call it inferior for having less sound is ridiculous and gullible. Defiantly gullible, which is probably an ideal form of gullible, which is probably how we'll end up with a President who talks all day and says nothing. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 433 Registered: Apr-08 | PS, you're right, I think I was looking at the Brio and couldn't find anything from NAD that measured as poorly. Not that it was bad, but trying to pass off a measurably inferior product as better is kind of funny. As I said, having had the Naims, the Regas, etc, I think I hear what you think you hear, but it sounds like lowered fidelity to me. So why is your opinion somehow 'better' than mine?!? Or all my customers who tried the Mira and Brio and didn't care for them? Or the $1800 Arcam that boomeranged on me for NAD amps at least three times before I sold it for $400 out of state? Can't you conceive of the idea that there are just as many people that would prefer a $500 NAD to a $1500 Rega or Arcam and sometimes even a Bryston? Sheesh! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2972 Registered: May-05 | Why can't you have a normal conversation, John? Why are you resorting to that? There's no need to get defensive. As far as timing of an amp, or any other component for that matter - are attack and decay times real things? If a supposed PRaT amp has quicker attack and decay times, is that distortion? Or on the other hand, would exaggerated attack and decay times be distortion? BTW - In case you haven't noticed, you have a 'sheep' following you around and saying 'what he said' too. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7669 Registered: Feb-05 | "You three want to get into a circle jerk?" Apparently civility isn't your strong point John... "One person says something, the others, like sheep, say 'what he said'." Unlike you John, I believe that it's ok to affrim that you agree with someone if you do. Something wrong with that? When you decide to speak in a civil way we can hold a discussion until then I'll be moving on. No loss to either of us I'm sure. C'est la vie. BTW...I own the $500 NAD (which is actually less) and the $1500 Rega (which is actually $1200) and I can say without a doubt that to my ears the Mira 3 is a better sounding amp...I do like the NAD though...and it's a good 3rd place (out of 4...4th being a 1979 Kenwood receiver) after my 10 yr old Creek. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1803 Registered: Jun-07 | I think we all agree here John that there is going to be a lot of people that will enjoy a NAD over Bryston or Rega. Also, we can all agree that a lot of people will prefer the Bryston/Naim over NAD as well. That was the point to my post. Its just a matter of opinion. "An NAD *measurably* has less 'sound' than these other amps, to call it inferior for having less sound is ridiculous and gullible." Again, we are not calling NAD inferior technically. It just sounds different than other brands, as all brands should. Some may find it inferior in sound compared to some. Also, some will find it better than those same brands. To each their own. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 434 Registered: Apr-08 | Nick, that's all I'm saying, but I get the idea that anyone who thinks differently from the forum meme is driven off so you're left with only one POV that is shared by everyone (or else) and I don't see how that is good for a thriving community. At least on AVS, there are so many opinions, they cancel each other out and people much more able to interact and make up their own minds. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 368 Registered: Mar-04 | I just want to wish each and all a pleasant and relaxing labor day. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2973 Registered: May-05 | No one is debating preferences here John. Whenever anyone has a preference other than yours, you say they're imagining things, having trouble with reality, etc. Anything you don't like is inferior. You simply can't comprehend that there's more to this stuff than any spec sheet will ever tell you. Someone asks you an honest question, and you act like a rat that's been backed into a corner with only one option left. "...but I get the idea that anyone who thinks differently from the forum meme is driven off so you're left with only one POV that is shared by everyone..." There are a ton of different opinions here. Keep in mind that most of us regulars have owned NAD, and some still do. No one hates NAD. We hate the way you tout it as the best thing since sliced bread when we've all lived with it for long enough to know otherwise. "At least on AVS, there are so many opinions, they cancel each other out and people much more able to interact and make up their own minds." Then why don't you go back. No one will miss you here. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2974 Registered: May-05 | Its time to fire up the grill!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1805 Registered: Jun-07 | Nah, you wont get driven off. We just ask that differences of opinion are communicated in a civil manner.lol. On a side note, I have a C272,T763,T743,T754 all at my house right now.lol. I own the T763 and T754. Selling the C272 and T743 for a good friend, who wanted to get an Onkyo based on just getting the HD Audio formats. I don't exactly agree with him on the change, but whatever floats his boat. I am also trying to get this one turntable I have greased up so the platter will spin. Everything is working on it, it just needs some good ol' greasing. I must say I am having a lot of fun both with my theater and two channel system these days. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 435 Registered: Apr-08 | Stu, the point is, if it's well engineered, measures well, then people should be careful about thinking that their interpretation of the sound holds water for anyone else. I'm not saying that NAD is 'the greatest', I'm saying it's as good as anything in its class, near as I have been able to determine in over 15 years of doing this, and some people love it and some people don't. That's the way it is. But it's an individual preference or even individual prejudice. Not a universal truth. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10721 Registered: Dec-04 | As for expensive remotes, has anyone else ever held the billet-machined items from Classe? It's bloodyexercise to use it, and it is always cold. bad bad bad A peameal roast on the grill for lunch! |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 436 Registered: Apr-08 | Remember that I only chimed back in because Joe was very happy with his speakers in his system, and everyone, rather than congratulate him, started hounding him about better amplification. Can't anyone just say 'glad you're happy'? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 437 Registered: Apr-08 | I've never used a billet remote that was enjoyable to use or didn't have sticky buttons or whatever. Nice to throw at a home invader, but other than that, I'll stick with my used and abused MX600! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7670 Registered: Feb-05 | Joe wasn't the OP either and like the rest of us was just offering his opinion. Yo Id and Stu...no work today eh fella's...that's a good thing. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 438 Registered: Apr-08 | Yes, but it's also like saying 'hey, imagine what your system would sound like with even BETTER speakers'. If someone is happy, loves his sounds, why bother to tell him it's deficient? OF COURSE you can get better amps, CDs, etc, etc. There's always better (though we do have limits on what we can hear of it though the opaque lens of a speaker). I don't have the best of anything, but I enjoy all of it. Cup always half full. Audiophiles tend to always be 'cup half empty' for some reason. One could argue that no purist stereo amp can make a speaker sound as good as surround receiver with good DSP correction on board. At least that is quantifiable. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 439 Registered: Apr-08 | I guess I'm used to people coming to me to solve problems they have, rather than me going to them to 'create' problems they didn't know they had. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 369 Registered: Mar-04 | I just don't get the prat thing and yesterdays posts make it less clear. I remember the guy who I purchased my passive pre from said it was Creek that had prat more than Naim. Ok I thought, I guess I will not miss that which I do not have. Ok (and forgive my lack of understanding), so amps don't have prat, source components don't have prat, the recordings have prat. So remastered cd's, sacd, and lp's have more prat than tapes and poorly recorded cd's? Or is it by genre, swing and jazz have prat but elevator music does not have prat? I don't mean to be a smart aleck (though it does come naturally at times). I just want to fully understand and am open to what others have to say. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 370 Registered: Mar-04 | Stu and Nick it is great that you acknowledge a persons preference. It isn't so much John touting Nad as it is a handful touting bryston on this board. I have read several posts where it is stated as fact that since it is bryston is must be superior. Sort of like GM's marking strategy of a car for every stage of your life. Chevy as a bachelor out of college, pontiac for when you first get married, Olds when you have the kiddies, buick as you reach middle age, and of course when you are winding down do it in style with the caddie. Similar thinking in audio, start out with nad and move up because .... well isn't it the thing to do? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 371 Registered: Mar-04 | Let us not diminish the importance of measurements. Us men love measurements whether it be those of a car, a piece of audio equipment, or those of a beautiful woman. I know the $99 teac stereo reciever at circuit city does not measure well and does not sound that great either. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 440 Registered: Apr-08 | As Tawaun will know, I go on a bender about amps because my competitor sells B&Ws. I strongly dislike the sound of kevlar because it has a very tell tale resonant sound. It sounds to some like added harmonics that other speakers don't reproduce (because they're not in the music). To others, it sounds like the amp is straining, when the amp is doing 5W max and the speaker is what is straining, adding harshness to the sound. So all I hear all day is how people need more power for their 90dB, 8 ohm speakers that are VERY easy to drive. They don't need a 'better amp', they need speakers that don't resonate!!! For this reason, I've become increasingly militant about so-called 'high-end' as most of it is BS and lies. Companies and dealers that try to be honest about what can be expected and don't try to fool people in sighted demos get rolled over by those that do. Our competitor sells B&Ws, then people go back for amps, CD players, cables and on and on because 'the speakers are revealing the weakness of my components'. But I would sell people a pair of nice NHTs and guess what? They were happy! They didn't feel the need for better and better amps or CDs or cables. Self-defeating for me? Probably. But very rewarding. The top reason for people upgrading at our store? "I'm so happy with my system that I now figure it's worth opening my budget because I'm really loving I bought more than I thought". I hate audiophilia nervosa. It's like a nervous tick that causes people to spend money rather than just enjoy music. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 441 Registered: Apr-08 | BTW, I agree with Tawaun that the Threes can sound kind of lean and thread bare. This is, however, rather music dependent and also because they really need a good sub to fill in the bottom end. They do have a slight steely quality to them in the upper mids and a slight roughness in the crossover region. HOWEVER, they do things that many $2000 speakers cannot. The sins are slight and most people find them very easy to ignore. I'll miss not selling them, but I sure don't miss the melodrama of being an NHT dealer and all of the wacky behavior from everyone outside the engineering staff (oh, the stories I can tell......). My life is more peaceful now selling Revel, PSB, Era which all have top notch staffs that I don't feel the need to baby sit. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7673 Registered: Feb-05 | That's funny John. When I bought NHT's I had to either get rid of them or buy a better amp because my gear wouldn't drive them sufficiently. Now that was a number of years ago and not the present crop of NHT's but facts still the same. BTW I had an Era sub and have listened to that brand a whole lot. Love the sound... Truly looking forward to having the NHT's here for a run. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12941 Registered: May-04 | . " One could argue that no purist stereo amp can make a speaker sound as good as surround receiver with good DSP correction on board. At least that is quantifiable." "Good" is quantifiable by DSP correction? How? Just because it changes the sound through comb filtering? EQ is the answer to "good"? How would DSP affect "palpable presence" which is a "good" quality to have? "Or is it by genre, swing and jazz have prat but elevator music does not have prat? I don't mean to be a smart aleck (though it does come naturally at times). I just want to fully understand and am open to what others have to say." Yes, swing and jazz (and rock and blues) musicians do manipulate the rhythmic flow of the music in most cases. As do all musicians of any talent in any style of music. They hit the one and three beats or the two and four beats harder than they do the alternate beats - assuming a 4/4 time signature. Go listen to some Chuck Berry or Tommy Dorsey and hear how they swing the beats up and down to get a rhythmic flow to the music. This 1/3 or 2/4 emphasis puts a "swing" - a forward momentum - in the playing style and in our response to the playing style. When it's heavily emphasized it's called swing music - literally. Go listen. If you play without those beats being emphasized, the music has less swing, less rhythmic forward momentum and therefore less PRaT. Less well skilled players have less emphasis over the inflections they play into the music. A system with poor PRaT sounds like the musicians are less skilled and not as emotionally involving. If you don't find your system as involving as live music, then your system could use an injection of PRaT - or boogie. If you don't know what live music sounds like, then you'll have no idea what rhythmic momentum controls. Elevator music as it is created actually has a strong emphasis on the element of rhythm because the intention is to get you tapping your toe along with the music and distract you from other thoughts. What then happens to the performance to make it "elevator music" is due to the post processing of the recording. (This is a simplifcation and doesn't address the choice of key signatures and chord changes used to create a happy sound that is upbeat to the point of sacharine. No flatted thirds or blue notes in elevator music.) The emphasis played into the music is compressed in post processing to constrict the peaks and make it all sound palatable. But listen to how the music is being played and you'll hear the musicians working as they always do to emphasize rhythmic momentum. That doesn't mean other styles of music have no rhythm - that would make it noise and not music. Rhythm is an essential element of music as you should have learned in first grade. Pacing is also a basic element of how a musician works the same twelve notes contained in Western Style music to make different statements. Swing and jazz, blues and rock players emphasize the beats in an obvious rhythmic manner that we all learned as, "It has a good beat and you can dance to it." Rhythm is, however, only one element of PRaT. If you don't grasp that idea, you'll never understand PRaT. I went through all of this the last time fishy denied the existence of PRaT. I went through all of this this when I detailed how PRaT works in music. Were you not paying attention? Find that thread and read how this all works. Equipment does not have PRaT, equipment can only be either transparent to the music or opaque to the music. No one here is projecting any great powers to an amplifier despite the false argument that we are. Good to excellent equipment simply does not destroy what is inherent in the performance. Good to excellent equipment simply allows those same twelve notes repeated over and over again to play in various combinations and with slightly different emphasis so we easily connect to the performance and can recall our experience of the live event. What's so difficult to understand about that? Do you listen to live music? If not, go hear some good music and listen to how the musicians play. Why is it so difficult to understand that some lines of equipment can do this better than others? Some lines are more transparent and some are more opaque. If you wish to argue that PRaT is not measureable, then tell me what measurement(s) would show all amplifiers to be the same when it comes to PRaT. . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 442 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, go fellate yourself, I have no interest in your insanity. When you can prove your ears in a DBT, call me, otherwise, STFU. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 372 Registered: Mar-04 | "I went through all of this the last time fishy denied the existence of PRaT. I went through all of this this when I detailed how PRaT works in music. Were you not paying attention? Find that thread and read how this all works". Jan, what you went through for the most part were bouts of hysteria, I don't want nor need to relive it again. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12942 Registered: May-04 | . fishy - You pitiful excuse for human life. You cannot be challenged without resorting to insults. It does keep you from answering the question though. When you have no answer, you can give no answer and so you insult someone who has not insulted you. You're still a waste of space, fishy. fishbait - OK, so you don't really want an answer to your question. Question: How mature do you look? Answer: Not very. Why don't you two go play with each other? . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 373 Registered: Mar-04 | You see I knew this would happen. Jan's meds would wear off and at the same time the Matlock marathon would end. Look Jan, your word is not the be all and end all here, maybe at home with the wife and the dog but not here. Now just take your meds and sit in that recliner secure in the knowledge that matlock will indeed be airing in the near future. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12943 Registered: May-04 | . Hey, fishbait, try arguing a point. Oops! You don't have one! "I don't mean to be a smart aleck (though it does come naturally at times). I just want to fully understand and am open to what others have to say." No, you don't and, no, you are not open to other ideas or you would have responded as if you were. Why lie about this? Because you know you don't really mean it when you post it? Is that it? You lie because you can? Neither of you want someone with alternate ideas to particpate in this thread. Neiher of you have a clue what you are talking about. Neither of you will shut up. But most importantly, neither of you can answer the basic questions asked of you. And so you trot out the same old DBT's and measurements like they are the only thing you can think of. Maybe they are. That's too bad. You're missing the enjoyment of this hobby and the music this is supposedly all about. The good news is others here get it and they don't have to be shown what to think by looking at a piece of paper or by tagging along on someone else's leash. They have ears and they have a brain that works on its own. It doesn't have to be cranked up each morning just to get to the next BDT. You jabber about how other ideas are important and then insult anyone who has an idea different from your own. You will not/cannot answer a question and you insult the person who provides an answer to the question you put forth. It's obvious you're not here to expand anyone's knowledge or to gain any knowledge. That leaves the only possibility which would be reasonable. You two are internet trolls who really have nothing to say but just immensely enjoy saying nothing. Together. If you wish to debate, I'll debate. If you wish to insult, then go somewhere else. This forum has been supremely quiet since your last visit. There have been numerous intelligent comments made which you both have ignored just to see your own words flapping in the breeze. You want all opinions to be respected as long as they are your opinions. If that's not true, then actually debate an idea instead of insulting the person providing their own opinion. And respect that person's opinion, don't shout it down in some bizarre twist of "other ideas need to be respected" - just not any that disagree with your's. Come on, fishbait, let's discuss how music is made. I've provided the first ideas. You go next. Nothing? That's what I thought. Neither of you have any information worth repeating - and repeating - and repeating. Anyone here care to act like an adult? We can have a discussion and ignore the children seated at the other table. Ignoring these two is an excellent idea IMO. . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 443 Registered: Apr-08 | Art, depends on the NHTs. Some of the older NHTs were notoriously a bit on the bright side. Not like really harsh speakers, but just enough to keep them from being true audiophile caliber speakers (mainly cheap crossovers!) And they were truly inefficient. So we would always match them with warmer, higher power amps like B&Ks or, in rare cases, C-J or YBA. The newer NHTs are just as difficult to drive, but MUCH more refined and really quite excellent, even for 'serious' audiophiles, as long as they can forgive the 'low rent' name. While the Threes are a bit tweaky, they're far less so than a lot of $1500-$2000 'high-end' monitors I've heard and I prefer their sonic signature. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 374 Registered: Mar-04 | "Anyone here care to act like an adult"? Jan we have done all of this before. You do not dictate what goes on here, please you old silly man get it through your thick skull. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12944 Registered: May-04 | . "You do not dictate what goes on here" No one does, fishbait, no one does. Once you understand that, you might once again fit in around here without having to follow your leader around to the various forums just to get in a fight. Time to look in the mirror, young man. Time to listen without being told what you will or what you cannot hear. Let me guess, now it's time for you to insult me again with something totally childish and redundant. . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 375 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan we have done all of this before. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12945 Registered: May-04 | . That's right, we have. So why argue the same things that you wouldn't/couldn't deal with before? You and fishy are the ones repeating yourself. This is not a topic this forum has discussed since the day you two left and not until the moment you two showed back up. What's that tell you? What it should tell you is we don't spend 150 posts arguing the same old tired BS. The members here have made good arguments for their case, while you and fishy have repeated and repeated the same old "stuff". You say you would like to know about music and I tell you about music - again. Then you both insult me. MY! What an intelligent way to get your point across. And what a way to learn from someone who is willing to give you information you asked for. Don't give me your self righteous BS and your tired old lines, you two are not interested in a forum viewpoint. fishy is interested in his opinion being heard over and over and over everyone else's point of view and you just tag along for the ride like a not very good Ratso Rizzo. It's difficult to decide which of you is the more pathetic. Fishy trying to make like he is the top dog or you licking up his drivel. No one here has tried to be the last word on any topic - except for fishy who must have his way even while he preaches everyone should make up their own mind. If he practiced what he preaches, this thread would have ended within ten posts. And you follow along like a little puppy dog who just shows up here at the same time as fishy. You don't think that looks like you are connected to his rear end with your nose, do you? You stand up for his point of view and still won't accept anyone else's opinion. Did I say pathetic? That's too kind. Yes, we've been through this before with the exact same results as this time because of the exact same insulting "arguments" being made by the two of you. Let it go. If you would stop and listen to someone else for just a moment, then you might learn something and you wouldn't have to repeat yourself with every post. If you don't know what you're talking about - which you do not and a lot of people here do - then don't make an @ss of yourself. There are more than enough people here willing to help anyone who doesn't think they know it all. I tried and got insulted for the effort and you still want to insult me. What's your problem, 'bait? So, yes, we've been here before and we'll probably be here again since you and fishy seem to find this forum whenever you've been kicked off all the rest. You'll both be back and you'll defend fishy as he insists measurements for NAD as as good as you need and DBT's tell you everything. Do us all a favor and just bookmark this thread so when you show back up all you have to do is post the link and then leave. Your little duet is about as stale as it gets. Now are you sufficiently grown up to let this be the last word about this whole affair? Or must you have yet another brilliant come back? . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 376 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan we have done all of this before. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12946 Registered: May-04 | . ROTFLMAO at 'bait. "Jan we have done all of this before." Then stop. |
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New member Username: JoesabinPost Number: 1 Registered: Sep-08 | Just curious, are you guys trying to discourage new people from participating or what? If not, please take a look at what you write here. As a few have said, you can spend more money and get different sound. But is it better? Or worse yet, can you hear the difference? Or just the same, can your environment allow you to hear the difference. In actuality, the fact we sit in the room with the equipment colors the sound. Oh, maybe we shouldn't be allowed in the room, that ruins the sound afterall.  But seriously, I think it is helpful to give people an idea where each piece of equipment falls into the spectrum of quality and perhaps what to expect. Beyond that, what help are we being. The threes are very nice by the way. Which is the question. Try them out, you might be pleasantly surprised...even with just a Yammy HT receiver! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12947 Registered: May-04 | . "In actuality, the fact we sit in the room with the equipment colors the sound." What's that mean, Joe? You're joking? Or, you're serious? . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7686 Registered: Feb-05 | Tell ya what Joe...I have a Yamaha HT receiver and three integrateds..I'll also have a pair of Classic III's in the house this weekend with 2 other impartial witnesses..I'll let you know which one thought the Yammie was the way to go..check my profile for the gear that the III's will be tested with...over and out. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 377 Registered: Mar-04 | "ROTFLMAO at 'bait". We have also done this before. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 444 Registered: Apr-08 | Joe, unfortunately, this forum is an "electronics are the most important part" forum, so the idea that your speakers sound good to you with 'deficient' electronics is not permitted. In a few days, they will do the [sighted/biased] test, make pronouncements about what gear is 'the best' and make harsh comments about the Yamaha. I could probably even look at the amp list and tell you which will be preferred by the name or cost of the product. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12948 Registered: May-04 | . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 378 Registered: Mar-04 | Art, if you prefer the classic 3's over the totems would you consider switching to the 3's? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 379 Registered: Mar-04 | "'bait - I get the last word". Why is it so important that you get the last word Jan? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 445 Registered: Apr-08 | We tested the Threes vs a customer's Rainmakers and it changed his mind about them quite a bit as he had been wanting to convince me to carry the Totems. While the Rainmakers sounded great and had their own unique character, the Threes were more resolving, did a better disappearing act, had more extended FR at both ends. Strangely, though people occasionally complain a bit about the upper midrange of the Threes on their own, when you compare them to other speakers near their price range, it's really hard to find fault. I think they get so close to true exotica that people are disappointed that they don't get the other 10-20% of the way there. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12949 Registered: May-04 | . "Why is it so important that you get the last word Jan?"  |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7689 Registered: Feb-05 | I'd bet you left the brass jumpers in John, take 'em off and try the matchup again. The difference in detail is startling. As for for your other comment: "Joe, unfortunately, this forum is an "electronics are the most important part" forum, so the idea that your speakers sound good to you with 'deficient' electronics is not permitted. In a few days, they will do the [sighted/biased] test, make pronouncements about what gear is 'the best' and make harsh comments about the Yamaha. I could probably even look at the amp list and tell you which will be preferred by the name or cost of the product." That's once again very insulting...I wouldn't lie about it for anyone. Once again you show that you can't be considerate of anyone. Very disappointing...though it should be expected by now. Id if I like the Classic III's better I may make a move in that direction. A new monkey wrench has been thrown in though. My Epos dealer has decided to pursue the mods mentioned on the Epos and Creek forum for the M12i and let me reaudition them...we'll see. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 380 Registered: Mar-04 | "A new monkey wrench has been thrown in though. My Epos dealer has decided to pursue the mods mentioned on the Epos and Creek forum for the M12i and let me reaudition them...we'll see". So I assume if the mods make the epos sound better you cannot give him back your totems and call it even? As a classic 3 owner I hope you like them best and purchase them. They look great, curves top and bottom and that high gloss finish. Oh, and they image very well with tight bass. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2981 Registered: May-05 | Everyone likes what they like. The same speaker will sound different with different amplification behind it, different sources, and so on. Let's not forget room acoustics and set up too. Even the guys who don't believe too uch in electronics shouldn't discount the room. With all that said, I'm pretty sure Art will give an honest assessment. He's been doing this long enough to know how to get the most out of them. Even more than that, he's definitely honest enough to give his honest opinion of the product. He won't fault them to spite anyone, or praise them to get on anyone's good side. If he likes them and wants them, he'll make it happen. Maybe not immediately, but they'll be in his house sooner rather than later. If he doesn't want them, he'll go about his business the way he has done since day one. I'm not too sure of what others would do, but I'd bet my retirement on him keeping/buying the speakers that worked out the best. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10726 Registered: Dec-04 | yep |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12950 Registered: May-04 | . A little something for the slow learners out there; "Eric clapton, please... vocals - Jack Bruce at the end of the song I've always had 'Crossroads' held up as, like, one of the great landmarks of guitar playing, but most of that solo is on the wrong beat. Instead of playing on the two and four, I'm playing on the one and three and thinking, 'that's the off beat.' No wonder people think it's so good-because it's wrong!" - Eric Clapton, April '98 interview with Britain's Mojo. http://12bar.de/solocream.php . |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1443 Registered: May-06 | JV, That is too funny based upon the context of this thread. On the other hand that is a fabulous link, especially with the guitar tabs. I have it bookmarked. "Going down to Rosedale, take my rider by my side" |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12951 Registered: May-04 | . Yep. If you don't have a clue what's right, you'll think what's wrong is good. Fits right into what somebody here is trying to get us to believe. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 382 Registered: Mar-04 | Yep. If you don't have a clue what's right, you'll think what's wrong is good. Fits right into what somebody here is trying to get us to believe. Yes. |
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Silver Member Username: KevincorrFairbanks, Alaska Usa Post Number: 605 Registered: Jul-07 | Not exactly relevant but I had a pair of NHT towers that were very good. I traded them for some much smaller towers, ie Castle Severn which suit my bedroom better. The NHT had a toggle switch to go from HT to music turning off and on a back firing speaker. The woofer is on the side near the bottom. I ran them for about 6 months at my mom's big room with a Denon av reciever and they really rocked out. Different speaker but a praise for the NHT brand. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12952 Registered: May-04 | . Great comeback, 'bait. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 384 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan we have done this already. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12953 Registered: May-04 | . Nope, not this one we haven't. You just think we have because you don't know what that quote means and you have nothing else to say so everything looks the same to you. I see you're still having a problem allowing anyone else the last word. You poor little child. Take a clue from your owner, he's shut up. If you won't do that, rather than posting yet another idiotic reply, tell us what you actually believe. You haven't contributed any real ideas to this thread, just yappy litle dog interruptions. Your only purpose here so far has been to serve as fishy's sole (Get it? Fishy. Sole. Dang, I crack myself up some times.) cheerleader. A lonely job that, the rah-rah squad for a lunatic. Tell us what you believe, 'bait. Not about the people on this forum, we know you prefer the company of bottom feeding fish. What do you beleive in when it comes to audio and music. You apparently don't know diddly about music and haven't learned anything from fishy since he never talks about music - he only knows measurements and DBT's. So, what do you actually think about how this all works, 'bait? What's your strongest held belief about music and audio? How do you put together a system to please your ears? What pleases your ears? What do you listen for and how do you know when you find it? Tell us what makes 'bait happy when you listen. . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 446 Registered: Apr-08 | Kevin, sounds like those were VT-2.4s. They made a 3/4 sized version called the VT1.4s which worked GREAT is small rooms. Really cool little speaker, like a Totem, but with a built in sub. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1731 Registered: Jun-05 | The last time the Classic 3 was in my house it had a pretty rough time with the Epos M12.2's It did not fair to well.From memory the Rainmakrs went lower than Classic 3,but to be fair the Musical Fidelity X-150 was lean in the bass and a little bright in the topend, which really affected the Classic 3's performance the M12.2's to but not as bad as the Classic 3's I would have loved to hear both speakers at the time with the SP-3. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 447 Registered: Apr-08 | We did a test with the Epos M5s vs the Absolute Zeros and the Zeros were MUCH smoother and more natural sounding. The tweeter was not nearly as smooth or as integrated as that on the AZ. Really surprised as I've always liked Epos for their smooth sound. I haven't heard the 12.2 though. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1733 Registered: Jun-05 | The 12 sounds totally different than the 5 I actually like the els3's better,I was actually shocked when I heard the difference.I always wanted to hear the 3's with some better matched gear,the 12 and the 3's balance are actually pretty similar both strive to be nuetral,although I feel both are somewhat tipped up in lower treble and the Rainmakers always seemed a bit tipped up in the uppermidrange with the Ls5/3a midbass hump. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1819 Registered: Jun-07 | John- what gear was used in the M5 vs AZ comparison? Just curious. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 448 Registered: Apr-08 | NAD Masters M3/M5. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1736 Registered: Jun-05 | You know I just went back and dug up the old Stereophile review with the M3 in it,and its actually the 1st time somethings been on their front cover and it wasnt really raved about.In that same isssue they had a review on the Creek Destiny and they seemed like they liked it a bunch more,seems that it had better bass to,I know this unit which I know for fact is outstanding and 1 of the best intergrated amps up to $3k or better.Seems like the M3 just has a lot more features than the Nad classic series but nothing points to their sound really being better.I've never really listened to all of these amps at the same time,but I just called my Friend that carries all of these amp's plus the Bryston and Rega stuff I will go this weekend and do a shootout on all of these amps. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7695 Registered: Feb-05 | Interestin Tawaun, looking forward to your results. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1820 Registered: Jun-07 | That will be awesome Tawaun. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 449 Registered: Apr-08 | Well, keep in mind that they were reviewed by two different people, Reina, who reviews affordable gear and Fremer, who reviews mostly very expensive gear. Since they weren't reviewed by the same person in the same system, the subjective part is pretty useless (as pretty much all Stereophile subjectivity is). "The Creek Destiny's measured S/N ratios and channel separation are adequate rather than good, and care obviously needs to be taken that it isn't asked to drive high signal levels continuously into loudspeakers that drop to 2 ohms or below. Otherwise, it offers good measured performance" "The NAD M3 offers excellent measured performance, and in my auditioning I was struck by how smooth it sounded: "as smooth as silk," according to my listening notes" Which isn't to say Creek isn't good, I very much like Creek amps. They tend to be smooth, like NAD, rather than the hyped "PRaT" amps, but when Creek does it, it's 'good', and when NAD does it, it's 'bad'. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12956 Registered: May-04 | . "Since they weren't reviewed by the same person in the same system, the subjective part is pretty useless (as pretty much all Stereophile subjectivity is)." That's simply as ridiculous as anything that you've posted here. Of course the reviews are not "useless". They do require someone who first believes in subjective reviewing. Then there should be an understanding of the two reviewers tastes and their priorities. A reviewer who listens exclusively to hard rock will be of minimal value to a strictly classical listener. A familiarity with any subjective reviewer's approach is necessary if you wish to comprehend what the reviewer finds interesting and whether their opinions will help you or not in your compellation of a short list of possible options. If you do not agree with a particular reviewer's tastes, then you can probably still find something worthwhile in their review. However, knowing you find a particualr reviewer more in sync with your own tatses will make the review much more usefull. Subjective reviews are there only as guidelines. The bottom line is still the prospective buyer must find an unbiased dealer who will allow a fair comparison. Reviews are not meant to be a substitute for an audition. What is useless is the objective reviewer who spends two pages decribing the circuit layout and THD measurement and then, in one sentence, concludes that any well made component "of course sounds good". . |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1737 Registered: Jun-05 | And John the reason that Micheal Fremer wasnt all that impressed is because he reviews more expensive gear.And when he usually hears something that floats his boat that's cheaper,he usually praises it,which tells me the Nad M3 didnt compare in sound quality to the more expensive gear that you claim that the M3 measure as good as or better such as the Bryston gear.Bob Reina's refference amp is the Creek 5350SE,and if the Destiny wasnt better,he would'nt have bought the review sample,now I know Reina says the same thing about speakers but he is always very clear about how good the Creek gear,and having hearing Creek gear for years,I agree with him. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 450 Registered: Apr-08 | Stereophile's job is to convince people to spend just the absolute maximum they can on audio gear. There is no WAY, if someone came out with a 'perfect' product that isn't also the most expensive, that they would praise it as the ultimate product to buy. At the same time, none of the stereophile reviewers will participate in a DBT to test their hearing vs their rhetoric. Fremer almost did, but backed off when he realized it would invalidate his entire career. Even if the M3 were perfect and indifferentiable, they will always claim that the more expensive product sounds better even if they can't show it in a DBT. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7698 Registered: Feb-05 | Do you actually read Stereophile John...just curious. First with Rega measurement statement and now with your statement relative to affordable gear I'm beginning to doubt. |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 451 Registered: Apr-08 | A little. I used to read cover to cover for awhile, but the more I read, the more I realized they were just making stuff up based on their mood, the system they had at the time, the music they were listening to, what they had for breakfast and, most of all, brand/price bias. Stererophile's modus operandi is that they say something is a great performer, a great value, that it is clearly better than product x costing half as much and *almost*, but 'not quite as good' as product y costing twice as much. And NONE of them will back up anything they say in a DBT. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2988 Registered: May-05 | How do you feel about Hifi Choice's shootouts? Are you familiar with their methods? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 452 Registered: Apr-08 | Those are more sighted or SBT panels, right? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7699 Registered: Feb-05 | DBT's are for scientists. Audio is as much art as science. A little. I used to read cover to cover for awhile, but the more I read, the more I realized they were just making stuff up based on their mood, the system they had at the time, the music they were listening to, what they had for breakfast and, most of all, brand/price bias." Again even you have to admit that the above statement is a bit silly. Or if not how would you back that up? Have you spent significant time at the Stereophile boards discussing this issue with the principles? |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 453 Registered: Apr-08 | Building a musical instrument is art. Building an accurate transducer is science. I mean, look, Stereophile writers believe what they are saying, I think, BUT, of course, you hire people that think they can hear minute differences in product even if they can't or even if they're just exaggerating. HOWEVER, if Stereophile management REALLY believed that their writers could hear the differences they write about, don't you think they'd want to test their listening skills in DBTs to make sure they're that proficient and are not just making stuff up? A really creative writer could become a Stereophile writer and never even bother to listen to the stuff, just tell people what they expect to hear. I don't go to their boards to complain, it would be like going to a church during mass and try to argue with a priest. It's a waste of time and just annoys people. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7701 Registered: Feb-05 | "Building a musical instrument is art. Building an accurate transducer is science." Building it may be but designing it is both...as I said. Circular thinking John. Best place to find out information about a priest is at his house. That way you see the private self not just the public one. If you really believed that church analogy and that it applies to Stereophile forums how does it apply less here...admittedly...you're doing little here but annoying people and wasting time...just a thought. The fella's over at the Seereophile forum seem pretty friendly and easy to get along with. I believe that you're afraid that you'll be the fella who brought a knife to a gunfight...and you would be. As I stated earlier in this thread...probably just best to agree to disagree. I don't think either of us are going to enjoy our systems less because we differ around this issue, and music is the whole reason for it all anaway...right. That I think we can agree on. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2989 Registered: May-05 | When Hifi Choice has a shootout, they have a mix of about 4 or 5 people review the components. Its a mix of staff writers, sometimes a guest writer or two, and designers/engineers. They first blindly audition the pieces and take notes. They then audition them again, taking notes again. Then they compare what they blindly heard to what they seeingly heard. Funny thing is, their notes almost always match up. If I recall correctly, they weren't that keen on the M3. They liked it, but didn't love it. They also stated that the matching CD player wasn't as good as the M3. If I can find the issue, I'll post the date. It may have been the one that had the M3 and CDP on the cover and said "Best Ever NAD." |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 386 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan, Much of what you offer, even if it has some validity is negated by your unusual behavior. I don't take anything you say seriously . A couple of regulars here who I have spoken with on the side agree that your browbeating and name calling is old-hat. But don't let that stop you Jan, you can have the last word; your ego is what is important here. "What's your strongest held belief about music and audio"? That it is just a hobby not a hammer to beat people over the head with. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 387 Registered: Mar-04 | I don't think hi-fi choice reviewed the M3, they just reviewed the c355. They sure do like the Naim 5i and the Roksan Kandy L.III though. I thought there was a general consensus about personal preference? There also appears to be a general consensus about the performance of the M3 and the Nad house sound as well. As far as stereophile and the M3 goes I recall reading this. http://blog.stereophile.com/stephenmejias/psb_imagine/ |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1739 Registered: Jun-05 | HiFI Choice and What HIFI? both play the biggest audio componet favortism in all the audio mags.What HIFI? for instance gave the Quad 11L product of the year twice and it was runnuer up a third year,I heard this speaker and it wasnt very impressive,as a matter of fact the least impressive of the L line.They also gave the Mission 780 product of the year twice and when I heard them I wasnt impressed,and it didnt do well in a Stereophile HIFI Guide in a bookshelf shootout against a host of speakers that costed less,the 780's was Missions Flagship monitor at the time,and it was a home theater mag not a HIFI mag that made it look even worse.Thats nearly as worse as Stereophile and HIFI Choice if not worse,thats why I like HiFi+ and HiFi News out of the British mags.What HIFI? glorafies certain products to much so much so it shows to much favortism,there for the Shootout looks rigged before it even begins or predetermined should I say which is actually worse,its total rubish BS crap slop if you ask me. What HIFI?,HIFI Choice,and Stereophile could'nt pay me enough to work for them,its like selling your soul to the devel,and the people that buys the stuff of off those mags Fruadulant rants without lengthy auditions are selling out just as much as the writer's or worse because the consumers are paying to hear what the reviewers claim they hear,and most customers dont look at the reletives involved with these reviewers calls on whats good or bad or why.What the reviewer likes should be the 1st thing mentioned at the very beginning of the review,so the consumers can match up their listening styles with theirs.1 of these days I plan on changing what reviewing should be about,but more importantly what customers like and what they dislike,consumers should have a say or atleast a componet a issue of our choosing to review instead of all the reviews being favors to there advertisors who dont wanna earn the customers respect but rather buy it ,1 review wont kill those bloodsuckers.If I was a ceo like John Atkinson I would nearly fire every reviewer that reviews right now,and do it the right instead of the most profitable way,doing it the right way you can make money to it almost reminds me of the Grammy awards but instead of us waisting money on software we're waisting it on hardware which is Much Much More than 15 bucks. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1825 Registered: Jun-07 | FWIW Hi-Fi choice did review the M3. Stu I am holding that very issue in my hand right now, has a big fat picture of the M3 on the cover, and reads "Best ever NAD". I am also holding and 'The Absolute Sound' issue in my hand that has a big fat picture of the NHT Classic Three's on the front that reads " WOrlds best $1K Speaker?" Interesting stuff. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7702 Registered: Feb-05 | I have that copy of The Absolute Sound right here. As usual they conclude that, and they choose some characteristic and state "No other affordable bookshelf speaker I've heard does a better job of that than NHT's Classic Three's". No other does it better...better question is how many do "it" as well....drivel. My wife and I read read Stereophile and The Absolute Sound primarily for music reviews. Occasionally an equipment report is fun to read and the pics are always good. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1827 Registered: Jun-07 | Yup, just one mans write up. There are tones of other opinions. Like Stereophiles claim that the RS6 is the best speaker around that price range. Here is what buddy says..he did the comparison against EposM5, NHTsb3 and Amphion Helium? http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/306monitor/index.html |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7703 Registered: Feb-05 | I have a chance to trade my R5's straight across for a set of RS6's...don't think so. I like 'em but I also like my quirky R5's. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7704 Registered: Feb-05 | BTW I'm gonna ask Gabe if he can bring a pair of Atoms from the store he works at to compare to the Epos ELS 3's as well...we'll see. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1828 Registered: Jun-07 | Art- yup, after hearing the R5's, I would easily be just as happy with those as I am with the RS6's. I have never done a A/B test, but I really enjoyed the R5's. Very musical, and fast. At the time my dealer couldn't match the deal he could give me for the RS6's (1000 taxes in, they retail for 1499.99 plus here) and so I have never looked back. Paradigm Atoms? Nice. So cheap and sound very nice. Can't wait to hear the outcome of that one Art. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12958 Registered: May-04 | . "Stereophile's job is to convince people to spend just the absolute maximum they can on audio gear. There is no WAY, if someone came out with a 'perfect' product that isn't also the most expensive, that they would praise it as the ultimate product to buy." Like I said, you need an open mind free of prejudices and the ability to comprehend what is being stated before you can understand a review device such as Stereophile. Obviously, you have neither, fishy. You might as well argue that Car and Driver, GQ or any other subjective review magazine is just as biased towards higher priced products. Money does get you better products. That's a fact of life. Partisanship is out of place in a good audio dealer. Hence, ... "At the same time, none of the stereophile reviewers will participate in a DBT to test their hearing vs their rhetoric." You are wrong once again. Several of the Stereophile writers have particpated in DBT's. They have successfully proven with 70-90% correct identifications their ability to detect ABX changes. This is some of the partisan BS used by those who wish to prove a one sided argument without having any real knowledge of the truth or providing any sort of proof what they claim is correct. This is just more partisanship that is out of place in a dealer and shouldn't be accepted on a forum. It is just a flat lie when told to customers in order to sway their decision. "Fremer almost did, but backed off when he realized it would invalidate his entire career." More lies. If you are talking about Fremer and the Amazing Randi, you have your facts completely out of order. Go to Fremer's web site and you can find his side of the story. It would be beneficial to at last read before you tell more inaccuracies in an effort to make your foes (and I can tell they are your foes, fishy) look like the fools you prove yourself to be when you spread untruths without substantiation. "Even if the M3 were perfect and indifferentiable, they will always claim that the more expensive product sounds better even if they can't show it in a DBT." So the M3 is not perfect after all even though it measures as well as anyone will need. Interesting. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12959 Registered: May-04 | . "And NONE of them will back up anything they say in a DBT." I provided links to several of John Atkinsons's "As We See It" columns devoted to DBT's, ABX's and other sorts of objectivist "tests" when you brought all this crap up on your last visit here in which you spent most of your time disparaging this forum. Obviously, you didn't read any of them because it would have destroyed your credibility. If you don't like our forum, fishy, it has been suggested where you should go. You're a partisan hack, fishy. Why don't you move beyond this "argument"? You've made it plain how you think and we've made it clear we disagree with you in almost all cases. The constant attacks on the logic of how we think and the magazines we read is BS. If you wish to discuss audio equipment and how a product sounds, then you're within the limits of what most of us will tolerate from you. The constant "you are wrong and I and right" is old hat and doesn't need repeating. I'm sure this is how you go about all things when it comes to audio but this is getting very, very old. You have your opinions and we have ours. They can both exist without anyone beating the other over the head with one sided lies. If you are doing this just to keep attention focused on you, then you really need to get over this stuff, fishy. . |
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Silver Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 454 Registered: Apr-08 | zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12960 Registered: May-04 | . "Building a musical instrument is art. Building an accurate transducer is science." Not even the objectivists in good standing believe that BS. The only people who cling to that line are the of same mentality as those who think Bush is a great president. (Don't start with politics, fishy, this is just as example.) There comes a point where you really have let go of the BS that infects your brain and accept that what you have put in your head is just rotten and dumb headed nonsense. It's called "learning" and "growing". Something you haven't done in God knows when. "I don't go to their boards to complain, it would be like going to a church during mass and try to argue with a priest. It's a waste of time and just annoys people." ROTFLMAO!!!!!!! . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12961 Registered: May-04 | . "Jan, Much of what you offer, even if it has some validity is negated by your unusual behavior. I don't take anything you say seriously . A couple of regulars here who I have spoken with on the side agree that your browbeating and name calling is old-hat. But don't let that stop you Jan, you can have the last word; your ego is what is important here." And you frame your disinterest in my valid comments with a personal attack. What the ....?! You don't even realize how incoherent you are about this whole affair. You tag along with fishy just for the fights, don't you? I've read comments that you and fishy engage in unattractive behavior here on this thread. Who'd you hear from? fishy? Surely no one else here talks to you. Don't talk to me about ego, 'bait. You only make yourself look even more fooolish when you make the attempt. ""What's your strongest held belief about music and audio"? That it is just a hobby not a hammer to beat people over the head with." Now that is funny. You follow fishy around from forum to forum and only participate in the threads where he is hammering away at everyone you dislike and you tell me the hobby is not about beating people over the head. Apparently you have no other answers to my questions about how you put together a system or what you listen for in music. Not that they haven't already but everyone can draw their only conclusions from your reply. Mine? You're totally uneducated, you cannot think on your own, you won't accept someone else's opinion or even the information you request "with an open mind" and you are a rather pathetic little hanger on. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12962 Registered: May-04 | . "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz" Awwww, fishy, that's the best you can do? You and 'bait are really rolling out the winner comebacks this time around. Why come back here if you can't take the heat of the truth? What's the matter, fishy? I once again prove you are attempting to present untruths as if they were facts. I ask for substantiation and you have none. I prove you don't have a clue what you are talking about and the only reply you can muster is that you don't care? That argues well for your side. You are a partisan hack, fishy. You are nothing more than a trained seal waiting for a bit of stale fish to be thrown your way. Look out, 'bait! . |
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Bronze Member Username: KbearPost Number: 75 Registered: Dec-06 | HiFI Choice and What HIFI? both play the biggest audio componet favortism in all the audio mags. I kind of like WhatHiFi. Obviously they could add a bit more to their reviews (though sometimes a review should just get to the point already), but they are one publication that will give a product a bad rating. I don't know about favoritism, I can't say I've read them enough to spot any trends. Just thought I'd throw that out there. I'm sure most here have more experience with these mags than I do. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2996 Registered: May-05 | I like Hifi Choice. I agree with a lot of their reviews of the gear I've heard. Not always, but perhaps more often than most other mags. They've given out more poor reviews than any other mag I've read. Not that it's a good thing that they have the most negative reviews, but it shows some honesty IMO. They gave the Mac MA 6300 integrated amp an unfavorable review. They loved the build quality, power, etc, but thought it fell short on sound for the price. I don't agree, but to each his/her own. Keep in mind that North American goods are far more expensive over there than they are here, and European goods (especially British) are cheaper there than here. It skews the cost to performance ratio a bit. In the case of North American gear, a lot. If a Mac or Bryston amp costs $3k USD here, it costs $3k GBP there, almost double the price. Even at double the price, the British mags absolutely love the Bryston BP26 preamp/2BSST combo, and the B100 integrated amp. Kind of makes you think about the B100 M3 arguement a little. Consider that NAD is/was a British company, and has a ton of advertising in their mags. Bryston has little to none. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 389 Registered: Mar-04 | "Now that is funny. You follow fishy around from forum to forum and only participate in the threads where he is hammering away at everyone you dislike and you tell me the hobby is not about beating people over the head". Jan, you need to get a hold of yourself. I don't dislike anybody here, even you. I am not that emotionally involved. Why don't you just relax, you really are tense. "I've read comments that you and fishy engage in unattractive behavior here on this thread". Jan, like I said some folks here just excuse your behavior away, sort of like an obnoxious uncle. I don't mind at all, I find your rants entertaining. So carry on Jan if you are anything at all you are predictable. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12968 Registered: May-04 | . Likewise, 'bait, likewise, though I find your comments about not disliking anyone here to be overly disingenuous. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 390 Registered: Mar-04 | "You're totally uneducated, you cannot think on your own, you won't accept someone else's opinion or even the information you request "with an open mind" and you are a rather pathetic little hanger on". Jan, we are both Gods children and brothers in his eyes. So be nice to your brother. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 391 Registered: Mar-04 | No really Jan I mean it I don't dislike anyone here even you brother. Hey Jan, did you hear about this "NAD Electronics of America - Booth 900 Description: NAD is renowned for its line of audio and video components for custom installation, home theater and hi-fi application offering outstanding performance, value and simplicity. EXPO Announcement: New T175HD AV prepro, T785HD/T775HD/T765HD AV receivers, T587 Blu-ray DVD player, M2 digital amp, C165/C275/C375/C545/C565/C725BEE stereo pre/power and integrated amps/cd players/receiver" Tell me the truth you are a little excited! Time to trade in the Mcintosh gear huh. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 7731 Registered: Feb-05 | Read that today Id. Thanks for the PM. I'm certainly interested in anything new by NAD...especially since I can go and listen to it anytime. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 392 Registered: Mar-04 | Yea Art, interested in the two power amps. I also wonder about what changes they made in the c375. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12969 Registered: May-04 | . Just had to have the last word, eh, 'bait? Is that the humility you find in the God you honor? Is insulting the person who offers you an education - an education you requested with a supposedly open mind - a lesson you learned from your God? If so, I know who your God is and why you follow him from forum to forum. I was raised Catholic and taught God accepts that we are not all equal in our knowledge. Allowing others to accept an education is the mission for everyone. Some are just more stubborn about leaving behind the false truths they would cling to in fear of change. Fear of change is a powerful motivator, I'm sure you understand that. Or maybe you don't. Many prefer what is most comfortable, believing those who would keep them from thinking for themself and thereby rejecting an education and ultimately resorting to insults and patronization in an effort to keep their own ego alive. That's where you are now, 'bait. You are so uneducated that any amount of truth scares you. You are so vain proud that accepting any other ideas beyond what you have been told to believe is out of the question. You are traveling a low road, 'bait, with little to look forward to from someone so interested in their own opinions. You'll never learn anything from sommone who can only preach what is not possible and that all who disagree are fools. There's nothing to be learned from the same verse repeated one hundred times in a single conversation. You need to find the light, young man. Open your eyes, 'bait. Stop being a schmuck! . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 393 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan ok you are not my brother you are my obnoxious uncle. Still have nothing but love for ya! "ultimately resorting to insults, some are just more stubborn". We all have our flaws Jan it's ok |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 394 Registered: Mar-04 | "Is insulting the person who offers you an education - an education you requested with a supposedly open mind - a lesson you learned from your God? If so, I know who your God is and why you follow him from forum to forum". Jan one simply has to scroll through this thread to see who is hurling the insults. If you really were interested in "educating" anyone you would realize that your methods are flawed. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12970 Registered: May-04 | . "Tell me the truth you are a little excited!" I checked my pulse - no change. 'bait, I guess you just haven't been paying attention to the idea that I don't get excited about this year' circuit that replaced last year's circuit. I like companies who design their stuff for the long haul and see no reason to change models on a regular schedule to compete with Yamaha, Denon, Pioneer, etc. for a blurb in some mass market magazine. The long haul companies design to a sound, the short term companies design to a faceplate and remote. Ever notice that, 'bait? When you are being sold a NAD, Pioneer, Sony, etc. you get sold the faceplate and then the remote and then this year's circuit. Ever talk to someone selling Mcintosh, Levinson, Rowland, etc.? Big difference, or at least there should be if the dealer is honest. Maybe that's why you and fishy can't hear any improvements in electronics. You not only don't have a reference for comparison, but you don't know how to listen and most especially, you are listening to the wrong stuff. I could be wrong about that. You never have said what you listen for so maybe you don't listen for anything at all. Possibly you are a dadaist listener. Here today, gone tomorrow. This year's circuit/faceplate/remote is all that matters. That would explain quite a bit about you, 'bait. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12971 Registered: May-04 | . "If you really were interested in "educating" anyone you would realize that your methods are flawed." Poor little 'bait. So dumb you can't even recognize the truth. You ask for an education and I provide the information. That's flawed?! I guess so when you truly don't want an education and lie about having an open mind. Poor dumb, lying little 'bait. Tell me one technical thing you know, 'bait. About music or audio. Just one thing you have to contribute to this thread. No personal insults, no patronization of the most pathetic sort, just one technical fact you know to be true that would be of interest to someone on this thread. . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 395 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan, beneath that gruff, tough, grey exterior lies a heart of gold. You cannot fool me. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12972 Registered: May-04 | . What a guy. Well, that answers any question I might have. I have no desire to waste my time here, 'bait. You won't accept an education so I'll leave you to your own devices. I'll watch for fishy's lies and the enxt time you claim to have an open mind. Otherwise, a conversation with someone who knows nothing but won't admit it is going nowhere for me. I'll find a thread where someone actually wants to discuss something. You stay here and don't do anything to the furniture. Oh, and give a snappy reply like a "copy/paste" of one of my own statements. Those are always your best. . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 396 Registered: Mar-04 | "Poor little 'bait. So dumb you can't even recognize the truth. You ask for an education and I provide the information". Thank you so much for all you have done for me Jan. Your altruism is really something to behold. You "educate" me by browbeating and insulting me. Jan you have been around long enough to know you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12974 Registered: May-04 | . That was quick! You're hanging on my every word, eh? Let's end this game, 'bait. I gave the information you requested and then you insulted me. So live by your own words - especially the ones about having an open mind. Your's is open, so open nothing can stay in there. Don't be a schmuck, 'bait. . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 397 Registered: Mar-04 | "I'll watch for fishy's lies and whenever you claim to have an open mind". Ah the wise grandfather of ecoustics protecting and "educating" the flock. Jan, as time goes on I appreciate you more and more. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 398 Registered: Mar-04 | "You're hanging on my every word, eh"? And you say I am unwilling to be educated. |
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