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New member Username: Michele_lPost Number: 3 Registered: Dec-07 | Hello boys, I have pretty much completed the room treatment project (Thanks to many of you!) and I noticed that I could actually use more power now. So it looks like it is time to look at upgrading my Denon AVR-2802. I will drive for the most part a pair of JBL L36 (These are old but I like them) I listen to music 75% of the time and only about 25% of video play. So far I have looked at the specs of the Denon AVR-3808CI And the Yamaha RX-V3800 I have auditioned nothing yet but a friend of mine likes the Yamaha. His taste in music however is quite different than mine. Any direction would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Michele Wish list: 1 Front USB Port 2 Ethernet port 3 iPod ready 4 Decent remote for my big fingers |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12102 Registered: May-04 | . I'm very curious why you believe you could use more power. The JBL's you want to use are on the very high side of sensitivity at somewhere around 96dB@1watt if I remember them right. They should play very loud even with a miniscule amount of power. The Denon should have more than enough power through these speakers for almost any sane listening level. Besides, adding more power in this case isn't likely to gain much in the way of volume since I doubt you'll be clipping the amplifier on your current receiver when used with the JBL's. Do keep in mind that doubling the wattage from the amount provided by the 2802 will only give an additional 3dB of peak volume - the level hit on monentary bursts and not even that much on a continual level. To satisfactorily raise the volume level by simply buying more power will mean an increase of approximately ten times as much wattage. That's far more than the two receivers you're considering put out and quite a bit more than your speakers are likely to survive if you're truly in need of volume. So what makes you think you could use more power? . |
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New member Username: Michele_lPost Number: 4 Registered: Dec-07 | Jan, First of all thanks for the insight, as usual posting here gives you more than the basic yes/no answer. As far as the 2820 and the volume range. I always had to bring the volume up to about -5DB to drive those speakers and give them a chance to really come alive. Don't get me wrong, they sound very nice and full at lower volume as well. But I would love to have a jut a bit more volume. When it comes to volume Jan, you say otherwise. You seem to believe that I should have plenty of volume left. I wonder if that indicates a problem with wires or possibly the source. As far as clipping, the 2802 clipped for the very first time in 5 years last week during a heavy lissening session and has done it a few more time since. Now, back to my source (please don't laugh) I am currently using the Panasonic DMR-T3040 to play my CD's. (and DVD's) I still own a Denon DCD-820, I will bring it in from the garage and set it back up to see if there is a difference. One more thing before I forget. I also have a Velodyne HGS 10G connected to the receiver. I have to assume one must factor that in as well. That's all I have for now. Thanks. Michele |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12112 Registered: May-04 | . Sorry, I don't know what a Velodyne HGS 10G is. I assume its a subwoofer. It figures in substantially if you're using the filters on the Denon to roll off low frequency information away from the JBL's. If you are clipping the Denon with the JBL's not seeing any low frequencies, you must be listening at very high levels. You say the Denon clipped last week. Just so we're on the same page, tell me what you heard that makes you think the amplifier clipped. The numeric display has nothing to do with the actual power output, it is merely a reference number for your own convenience. If this combination isn't playing loud enough for you, just how loud do you want to go? . |
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Silver Member Username: CcdoggyPost Number: 186 Registered: Jul-06 | In reality if you want a receiver that outputs more power for listening, and the Denon really puts out 90 watts, then you need to look at receivers that output somewhere i the range of 150-200 watts. as to increase the volume 3db you need to more or less double the amount of power. Also take into consideration that that 90 watts i bet isent a real rms rating. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12115 Registered: May-04 | . "Also take into consideration that that 90 watts i bet isent a real rms rating." I don't have a clue what that is supposed to mean. Manufacturers are required to state their output power in R.M.S. watts so, yes, I would assume that is root mean sqaure wattage. So what? Going from 90 to 150 watts will give an additional 2dB of headroom. If the amp is clipping with normal program material, that extra 2dB will be all but unnoticeable. . |
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New member Username: Michele_lPost Number: 5 Registered: Dec-07 | Jan, yes the HGS 10G is indeed a sub. What happens is the receiver cuts of the speakers for a brief moment (that is clipping yes?). When I turn the volume down the volume comes back, so it must overheat. I will need to confirm the sub settings on the receiver but I don't remember changing anything lately. Besides, this began only a few days ago. The one thing I did change it just occurred to me. I have increase the volume of the sub from 0 to +3 from the receiver itself via the remote instead of the sub itself. I am going to disconnect the sub and only run the fronts for a while to rule out a sub or power draw issue. Although the sub has it's own amp so I don't. Steve, I was going to go from 90W to 150w or so just to fill up the room nicely. I need to be clear about this. From day one and using the JBL'only, I always needed to get the volume very hight to drive the speakers to what I would describe a loud but clean and enjoyable level. Volume range example: (If it means anything) Low volume = -40db Med Volume = -20db High Volume = -10db/-05db (Loud but still very clear.) I hope I haven't confused my problem even more. Thanks for all the replies. Michele |
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New member Username: Michele_lPost Number: 6 Registered: Dec-07 | Edit: Sorry, Please ignore the "so I don't." Thanks, Michele |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12126 Registered: May-04 | . I know you would like a simple, straight forward answer but I really am not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. Are you trying to get "better sound" or simply more volume? Yes, yes, I know, you want both. But what is your main complaint about the Denon? What is it not doing that you feel can be rectified by inserting a new receiver? Either way, power or quality, I think you're basing your decision about a new receiver solely on the inadequacies of your present Denon. Those inadequacies don't change all that much with more expensive receivers, there's just more features to plow through. More Denon - or Yamaha for that matter - power alone isn't going to gain much in the way of either sound quality or volume unless you simply feel raising the volume is required to obtain clarity. In that case a new receiver isn't where I would direct my attention. I'm leaning more toward a change that involves better quality equipment and not a more or less lateral move to a new mass market receiver. Have you auditioned any new equipment so far? How do you have this system set up? Have you experimented with speaker placement or just plopped them down where they fit? . |
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New member Username: Michele_lPost Number: 7 Registered: Dec-07 | Jan, Just a bit more volume is what I am looking for really. You see, before the installation of room treatment, I was not able to play my tunes at a high volume at all because the acoustic characteristics of my listening room where a complete disaster. Now on the other hand, I can play my music at the highest level without the ill effects of bad acoustics. This is both a blessing and a pain because I have now reach the limit of what my equipment can output and I therefore would like more volume. By pure coincidence or by me pushing the receiver beyond it limits, I have noticed the receiver cutting off. Is it on its way? I don't know. I came to the temporary conclusion that the receiver must be the weakest link at this point because of the clipping and also because I have to use so much volume up to -05db to make it fairly loud unlike a previous post that said just the opposite. (A friend of mine well versed in the field said a while back the speakers were power hungry) Unless of course the speakers, after some 30 years just got less and less sensitive and need more power if that is even possible. So yes, more volume is what I am looking for. The only reason I would go with a receiver first is because of the above reasons and have the speakers become the weakest link, but have a good base receiver. Then go from there later on. As far as speaker placements, spikes and such, I have I believe optimized their placements with the exception of the sub because I am still reading on that topic and as you know much better than me it is time consuming. Thanks for listening (not too loud) Michele |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12133 Registered: May-04 | . http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1770 Registered: Oct-04 | That is a very cool link Jan, thanks. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12134 Registered: May-04 | . "By pure coincidence or by me pushing the receiver beyond it limits, I have noticed the receiver cutting off. Is it on its way?" First, cutting off is not clipping. Read some information on "clipping", http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?fr=ybr_sbc&p=audio%20amplifier%20clipping You are stressing the amplifier. The stress is very likely the result of overheating. If you put your hand on the receiver's top plate just after it has shut down, you will probably feel a very hot amplifier. Better ventilation for the receiver is the first solution to this issue. If you have the receievr in an enclosed space or inside a cabinet, you'll need to move the receiver to begin rectifying this problem. While overheating isn't always a precursor to failing, continually stressing the amplifier will eventually wear out parts that will require replacement. "I came to the temporary conclusion that the receiver must be the weakest link at this point because of the clipping and also because I have to use so much volume up to -05db to make it fairly loud unlike a previous post that said just the opposite. (A friend of mine well versed in the field said a while back the speakers were power hungry)" I'm not in the mood to disagree with a well versed friend but I have never run across a JBL speaker that would be considered "power hungry" by 98% of the buying public. (There is a small element of the public that would consider anything not loud enough.) The JBL speakers have always operated at high efficiency and high sensitivity. I checked a back issue of a buyer's guide that I still have from the mid '70's and, while actual sensitivity wasn't quoted there, the minimum power suggested for the L36 is ten watts. That would hardly suggest a "power hungry" speaker. Quite the contrary. I suspect the sensitivity of the L36 was somewhere between 90-94dB. That's quite high by any home audio standard and inidcates the speakers should be playing very loud with the wattage your receiver claims. Please, ignore the numeric display on the receiver. It has no real meaning other than as a consistent reference for itself. In most receivers, when driving most speakers, a volume control setting of -05 is not out of line. The real point though is that number means nothing other than it's louder than -06 on this receiver and not quite as loud as -04 on this receiver. Outside of that reference, the numbers mean nothing. The speakers do not loose sensitivity over time. Certain parts age and deteriorate but the speaker's basic sensitivity remains the same. This speaker was designed in the early 1970's and that indicates many parts that are of much lower quality than what you'll find in even budget oriented speakers of today. (For example, no high quality speaker at any price today would be inclined to use the cone tweeter you have in the L36 and even the most inexpensive speakers that portend toward high quality use a dome tweeter.) Rebuilding the crossovers in these speakers will add clarity to the sound but, unless a component in the crossover has been damaged by excessive heat, changing the crossover will not change the speaker system's overall sensitivity. If the sensitivity remains the same, the volume potential remains the same. All of that leaves you with a speaker that should be capable of very loud volume levels with the receiver you own. Adding more power to gain volume is inefficient and expensive. As I have stated, doubling the available power will gain only +3dB on peak levels. To get an idea of how little/much 3dB changes the overall system level, try this experiment. As I said, the numeric display on your receiver is relative only to itself and does not read out in decibels of sound pressure within the room. So ignore what you think might be happening with the volume control. Instead use the volume control to raise the level to a fairly loud level at about -10 on the display. Most volume controls on mass market receivers change the level by approximately 1.5dB with each display change, which would make two notches on the display an approximate +3dB change. With that in mind, toggle between -12, -10 and -08 on the display. What you have done is roughly alter the potential level by 3dB with each two notch jump, the same as doubling the specified output wattage with a new receiver. The difference in level between -12 and -08 is approximately the equivalent of four times the amount of wattage. Is that the amount of volume increase you want to buy? If so, I would buy the Denon receiver with that increase in power. What I have not mentioned to this point is the qualifying statement to doubling power. If you double the wattage, you will gain an additional +3dB of level - if everything else is the same or equal. I would suggest rather than looking for more wattage, you look for a better amplifier. I suspect you are thinking that is precisely what you asked in your first post. Well, IMO, you did and you didn't. Most mass market HT receivers are not well designed for how you are using the amplifier. Overall, HT receivers sound like crap when playing music. They do OK when asked to do explosions and car wrecks but cannot deal with the constantly changing and complex demands of music. The most typical solution to this problem is to have a two channel system for music and a separate HT system for movies. If this isn't possible, some people will eliminate the additional channels for HT and drive a dedicated two channel system for music and movies. Finally, some HT receivers allow the connection of a dedicated two channel amplifier to drive the front speakers for music and movies through a better amplifier. The HT receiver will drive the rest of the surround system for movies only. I don't know your receiver well enough to suggest whether this is possible but any dealer should be able to provide some assistance in determining the value of this set up. If you would like to explore the sound potential from a good quality two channel amplifier, there are plenty from which to choose. Both Onkyo and Rotel are building some high quality integrated amplifiers that would probably suit your purposes. Other brands are available with the lowest cost most likely being in the NAD line up. Just to satisfy your curiosity, I would suggest you stop by a dealer for any of these brands and give a listen to a well designed two channel system. I think you'll find the quality of the music to be quite superior to your HT receiver/system. If you are listening to music through a DVD player, you could also benefit from an improved source player. Most DVD players are quite mediocre at music and will render the music dynamically flat and muddled. A better player will make more of music which tends to give the impression of louder peaks and more clarity, both of which mean you will not have to turn up the volume to get clarity and when you do raise the volume it will remain clean. Oppo, Onkyo, NAD and Rotel all offer very good budget CD players. Buy a dedicated CD player and not another DVD player - with the exception of the Oppo which is a universal player. Quite honestly, in a domestic setting I cannot imagine the need for higher volume levels than the L36's can provide though I can certainly see the potential for better sound quality than the Denon can output. If you want higher volume levels with the speakers and source palyer you already own, then you'll need to buy a much larger power amplifier section in the next receiver, I would suggest at least four times larger to make a dent in "loud". I would also encourage you to make certain the settings on your current receiver are correct for how you use the system. Telling the receiver you have additional speakers playing will only waste power and result in the need to increase the volume level with poor results. Do you use this receiver with addition surround and center channel speakers? . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12137 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.stereophile.com/cdplayers/108onk/ http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/907onk/index.html http://stereophile.com/hirezplayers/507oppo/ http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/306outlaw/ http://nadelectronics.com/reviews/TAS-C325BEE-C525BEE-Review . |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1054 Registered: May-06 | My SPL MAC only is 108.6 SPL when the Gallo Sub-Amp kicks in is 111.1 Changing from 88 to 92 efficiency on the speakers theoretically would give me a higher SPL than doubling the output of my MAC amp would. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12142 Registered: May-04 | . There you go, Michelle! Buy Mike's McIntosh since he's looking to sell cause it's kinda puny. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9696 Registered: Dec-04 | ROFL! All tar... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9697 Registered: Dec-04 | Oh wait, my stock in tar just went up! Jeff Rowland must have sold another amp. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12153 Registered: May-04 | . Either that or another mastodon died. Could be both. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1055 Registered: May-06 | WWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT??????????? That's what I get for sleeping. Geesh. Why not the Gallo's and sub-amp too???????????? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12156 Registered: May-04 | . Michelle, this deal's getting sweeter by the day. |
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New member Username: Michele_lPost Number: 8 Registered: Dec-07 | Quick/brief update: Jan, thanks again for your educational post. I had to read it a few times to really get your points. The links are interesting too. Let me start by clarifying something. The only reason I mentioned the numeric display is to give you a visual and hopefully help you understand my dilemma. The point about volume I was trying to bring out is that to my ears, the top maxed out volume is at -05db, any higher than that I can begin hearing distortion. As far as overheating, the receiver is in the open on top of a desk. Nothing on top of it and yes it gets a bit hot but no more than what I would consider normal under heavy use. based on what I have been reading here, it looks like I have optimized whatever equipment I have. To expect any improvement, the source (Although I am quite satisfied with the present "quality") the "power box" and the speakers would have to be replaced in concert. More to come about that... I have not been able to duplicate my original problem,lack of time. Jan, I like the Idea of a better quality dedicated 2 channel. Whatever direction I choose at the end, it would have to serve me well for a while. Unlike many of you, I don't particularly enjoy changes. Thanks and out for now. Michele |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12182 Registered: May-04 | . Beam me up, Scotty. |
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New member Username: Michele_lPost Number: 9 Registered: Dec-07 | Update: I thought I would post a quick update to inform you of my last finding. Jan, you won't believe what the root problem was! I had some time so I figured I would fire up the audio and look into why the receiver would cut out. In fact, this time it would cut out only after a few seconds of play time while the receiver was not even warm at all. Hum puzzling said I? I swapped CD just in case to no avail. then I began to notice a pattern. whenever the sound would come back from cutting off, it would come back exactly where it had cut off and the audio track would continue normally for a few seconds. This is not what you would expect since if the audio cuts out, the CD continues forward and the track would be farther alone when the audio came back. By pure chance I looked at the display on the DVD Player and noticed that counter would stop moving at the precise moment the sound would cut out! BINGO! The player was the issue all this time. I plugged in my older Denon CD Player and all is well on the audio side. I mean, who would think of looking down there really? (Anyone pretty much) I will find out next time I play a DVD Film if it cuts out also or if it is a CD issue only. At this point, I would not assume anything anymore. Jan and the others, Thanks for the help. Michele ps: I still want more volume but that is another issue all together. |