Aha, so you DO get what you pay for, after all!
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Bronze Member Username: KillamabillaClear Lake, TX USA Post Number: 35 Registered: May-07 | http://www.news.com/8301-13580_3-9849949-39.html?tag=newsmap http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1443681520080114 Would be fascinating to see the results if similar tests were conducted on people who consider themselves audiophiles and those who do not. For example a blind test of two identical low-fi systems, but with the subjects told that one of the systems was a (insert expensive brand name here) and the other one was say a cheap Sony system from Best Buy. Especially if such a test were conducted under the pretense of examining differences between different components: speakers, amps, and CDPs. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12063 Registered: May-04 | . Perception is everything, BD. http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN0325649120080107 But $90 wine comes in the same bottle as $10 wine. I think you're missing the point. . |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1040 Registered: May-06 | I drink Miller Lite mostly. It is cheaper than the $10 wine. I do not get hung over, I wake up in my bed, it stays down. I get full before I can drink to much. Let's keep it simple folks. And Nuck, we do not need to discuss Tequilla, Scotch, or whatever. That would not be relevant to this post.  |
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Silver Member Username: CcdoggyPost Number: 174 Registered: Jul-06 | I think that test would be flawed as the "normal" people havent even heard a descent system before. Audiophiles typically have allot better hearing and are more analytical about sounds compared to "normal" people. It does take time and training to get a good ear on acoustics and nuances in music. Then again the "normal" people may prefer the sony system as thats what they have gotten used to. Heck i thought my logitech computer system was the bomb, then i got a job installing high end equipment and picked up a few things of my own. at first i wasent sold on them, but the more i listened to them the more i liked them, until now my logitech speakers sound average at best, even with mods. That article dident say if the test subjects had any real experience with wine and/or wine tasting. |
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Bronze Member Username: KillamabillaClear Lake, TX USA Post Number: 37 Registered: May-07 | "That article dident say if the test subjects had any real experience with wine and/or wine tasting." Excellent point. That's why it'd be interesting to run this type of test on both audiophiles and non-audiophiles, to see just how much of a difference there'd be. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12075 Registered: May-04 | . How about having the test include people who listen to live music and people who don't. What the hifi sounds like is immaterial if you want to know how the music sounds. You're putting the cart before the horse. Additionally, the problem with your "test" compared to wine tasting is there is no intermediate when tasting wine. When judging the performance of an audio system you can only judge the quality of the music. Therefore, you cannot truly judge the hifi without music. Quite different than tasting wine from the bottle. . |
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Bronze Member Username: KillamabillaClear Lake, TX USA Post Number: 38 Registered: May-07 | yes, a 3-way test with these groups: 1. people who consider themselves "audiophiles" who listen to live music 2. people who consider themselves "audiophiles" who don't listen to live music 3. people who don't call themselves "audiophiles at all" Don't see where the need for an "intermediary" comes in---if the subjects are listening to 2 identical systems but are told that one is a much more expensive name brand, then a clear "placebo effect" is proven if the subjects then identify a preference to the purported "expensive" system. Pretty cut and dry to me. If a person truly is basing their perception on their EARS not their PRECONCEPTIONS/PREJUDICES then they would logically fail to identify any differences in sound between the 2 identical systems. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2390 Registered: May-05 | The reason why the same wine unknowingly tastes better from a $90 bottle than a $10 bottle is the same reason why in double blind drug studies a large amount of people get better despite unknowingly taking fake pills - The Placebo Effect. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2391 Registered: May-05 | "If a person truly is basing their perception on their EARS not their PRECONCEPTIONS/PREJUDICES then they would logically fail to identify any differences in sound between the 2 identical systems." Its impossible not to have these pre-conceptions, no matter how hard you try. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1739 Registered: Oct-04 | I wonder if the scenario was flipped, and wine connoisseurs & laypersons were given a $10 wine and told it was a $90 bottle how this study would have fared? I suspect it would have been much the same. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12078 Registered: May-04 | . You misunderstand my use of the term "intermediate". When you taste wine or coffee or Pepsi vs. Coke, you are judging your perceptions of a product. There is nothing between you and the taste of the wine. You judge the sweetness or acidity or whatever the test is supposedly designed to uncover. You cannot judge an audio component without playing music. To a large extent what the average listener ends up judging is the music more than the component. And the average listener is quite often listening for "more bass", "clearer mids" and cleaner highs". What does that prove? If you gather "audiophiles", they bring their own pre-conceptions with them and they tend to not judge the music in many cases. If you buy audio components to get closer to the reality of music, what will the audiophile's preconceptions prove when judging the musical value of a component? A system can have excellent soudstaging and still be boring to listen through. But you must listen through the components and not directly to them. You assume all things audio are packaged and sold in the same bottle. Price is indicative of more than just sound quality when judging components. McIntosh has sold more than their share of amplifiers just because of those big blue meters. And also because they have a product that is well known to last for decades with no major service or repairs required while holding or actually increasing in value. Once you drink the wine, the value is greatly diminished. You drink the wine from the bottle and throw the bottle away. If you buy an amplifier for $1k, you don't throw it away after one song. I have to say, you've taken a poorly designed test that has no merit other than generating an "I knew everyone else was a fool" news story and now want to apply the same poorly thought out techniques to an area in which the comparisons are even more specious. . |
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Bronze Member Username: KillamabillaClear Lake, TX USA Post Number: 39 Registered: May-07 | JV, within the larger context of music and audio you are correct of course. Within the smaller context of this proposed test however, I don't see how it matters. Again, the parameters are simple, for example: 1 cheap "low-fi" system from BestBuy. Each blindfolded subject is told that the first piece of music they hear is from a low-fi system, and the second piece of identical music is from a $5K system. A clicking device is used to simulate the sound of switching from one system to the other. The subject is asked to indicate which of the alleged "two" systems they preferred. To make this an especially amusing test, we could actually use say a $600 system and a $6000 system but tell the subjects when they listen to the $600 system that it's actually the $6000 system they're listening to. The results could be hilarious, though potentially devastating to the high-end audio industry. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2393 Registered: May-05 | When I was in college, I always wanted to get a keg of O'Doul's and serve it at a party and see how many people got drunk. I'd be willing to bet quite a few people would be. |
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Bronze Member Username: KillamabillaClear Lake, TX USA Post Number: 40 Registered: May-07 | LOL great idea, Stu! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9600 Registered: Dec-04 | Bill, I have read a few tests like that, with embarassment intended for all who partake. Setting someone up to fail with lies is hardly the way to repeatable study based results. It usually ends up in harsh words, hurt feelings and broken friendships. Just drink the wine first and let everyone listen the way they want to and own accordingly. Stu, I know 1 chick who got drunk on virgin Purple Jesus, and that worked out very well. Not my Xwife, either. That didn't work out so well, LOL! |
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Bronze Member Username: KillamabillaClear Lake, TX USA Post Number: 41 Registered: May-07 | Wise words, Nuck. I would indeed feel bad pulling this on friends. In a professional setting however, it could still be interesting. I did read of a test where people were able to distinguish between Pepsi and Coke, so who knows...? I'm sure there could be some exceptions, people who truly do have "golden ears." |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12081 Registered: May-04 | . I gotta agree with Nuck. About the lies thing. Not about the wife thing. Are they the same? . |
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Silver Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 185 Registered: Aug-06 | Lol. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9602 Registered: Dec-04 | Laff it up, fuzzball. |
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Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 14348 Registered: Dec-03 | Who's scruffy looking? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2640 Registered: Sep-04 | Bill, Due to production variation (yes, even in high end HiFi), it is possible to have identical units which sound slightly different, but enough to give consistent results. therefore the only way to prove a placebo effect is to use several groups, 1/3rd of which are told system A is the expensive one, 1/3rd told system B is the expensive one and the third who are simply told there are two systems in the house and to mark down their preference, if any. Of course, the problem here is how to bring up the statistics. You should be asking for which is better and if they can't tell a difference. Doing what you suggest without these controls proves nothing, so one wonders what was done in the wine test. That said, it's interesting to note that they were measuring the pleasure centres of the brain. Perhaps this is why the upgrade path is so prevalent in the HiFi industry... Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 186 Registered: Aug-06 | Still laughing Nuck, but laughing with you. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9605 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks, Marc. I have been low on levity. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12086 Registered: May-04 | . The new Levity mk.III showed at the January C.E.S. Should be out by the end of the year. Start saving now. |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 550 Registered: Feb-07 | Holy whitespace, Jan. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9606 Registered: Dec-04 | hehehe |
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Gold Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 1097 Registered: May-05 | Nerfherder? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12097 Registered: May-04 | . That's what the man said. |
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Silver Member Username: HifisoundguyPost Number: 199 Registered: Aug-06 | They need to test the Acoustic Wave Music System 2 and two Clever Little Clocks... you might be fooled its a $5000 system! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9643 Registered: Dec-04 | Levity in spades. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12108 Registered: May-04 | . RW - I didn't think you contributed to real threads. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9646 Registered: Dec-04 | This is still a real thread?!? Well, not anymore, in spades. |
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