Starter stereo recommendations
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New member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 1 Registered: Nov-07 | I'm new here and have been lurking for a few days. My wife and I are planning to treat ourselves to a basic stereo and are feeling overwhelmed by the variety of equipment available. We'd like to get a pair of main speakers and a 2 channel receiver/amp to use with a cd player we already have and figure that we can add other components over time. 90% of use will be for listening to music, though we may occasionally use it for watching movies. We listen to a mix of rock, acoustic music like bluegrass, and some classical. Since we'll be moving in the next 6 months I don't know what room it will go into, though it will likely be about 13x17 with wood floors (typical living room size in the houses we've been looking at). Our budget could go in 2 directions depending on a few things: either $500 (possibly stretchable to $600) or around $1000 (possibly stretchable to $1200). We listened to a few bookshelf speakers played through a Yamaha RX797 receiver before we'd talked about the budget. We really loved the Focal 806VBs. Unfortunately, I think these will be out of our price range, but they sounded fantastic. We were less impressed by several Polk bookshelf speakers ($250-$900/pr range). What would you all recommend for a reasonable receiver and speakers to consider in each of these two price ranges? Thanks for your help! Jeff |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 251 Registered: Nov-06 | Hi Jeff, Your question is sort of a large swathe. People have varied and strong opinions and answers. I will share a handful of my principles if you will followed by a specific recommendation or two. These are my opnions only and are open to criticism and disagreement. 1. Of course its highly preferable for you to listen to speakers in a similar environment to your home, if not in your home ( better) before purchasing. I am , for example, pretty critical and easily annoyed if treble higher frequencies arent handled in what I call a correct accurate and non disharmonious fashion. Part of what I mean by this is related more to the amplification type/source of receiver but part of this is related to the tweeter in the speaker itself. 2. I dont prefer speakers that require major power to drive them in order to get a reasonable result. I suggest 8 ohm speakers only, especially if you are just starting out with excellent sensitivity characteristics as well. It places less burden on having to select ( a right receiver" and decreases the fiddle factor as well. 3. I prefer soft dome tweeters to metallic tweeters as well. There are other materials besides these, such as ceramic and ribbon, but soft ( silk dome) vs hard ( metallic) is a somewhat ubiquitous issue in speaker selection. All of this as a background, I really do like my AScend Acoustics 170 pair quite a bit. I had em custom finished even, so there a bit easier to look at than the standard black box. There have been one or two changes in them since 2 years ago, denoted n=by AScend 170SE for example. I have ciritically listened to two pairs of the SE version, and still prefer the origianl AScend 170s myself. The good part is that since the SE models were introduced and everyone "upgraded" to them, lots of used AScend 170s became available. There could be quite the laundry list of speaker pairs here for you. But I'd thought I'd give you one and stuff to think about. Again. just opnions from me. Not "gospel" as they say. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 252 Registered: Nov-06 | PS- I don't care for the sound of many of the Polk offerings as well. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1558 Registered: Oct-04 | Jeff, Consider the Harman Kardon HK3485 for $188 http://www.harmanaudiooutlet.com/search_browse/product_detail.asp?urlMaterialNum ber=HK%203480-Z&status= & the Infinity Beta 20 for $199 http://www.theaudiovideosource.com/1BetaSeries.html If you can spend a bit more, consider the NAD C720BEE as an upgrade for $429 http://www.spearitsound.com/nad/C720Bee.asp , and keep the Beta 20, they're hard to top in the sub-$1000 category. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2565 Registered: Sep-04 | Jeff, If you liked the Focal 806V you may wish to consider their entry level range, the 700V series. They're obviously not as good in many ways but they have a similar presentation, lean and fast. The entry level 705V is a peach in my opinion. The added benefit of the Focals is they're easy to drive. An NAD C325BEE will drive the 705V in a room of 17x13 relatively easily. Of course, you won't be getting huge bass but you will be getting a fair amount of fidelity. Later on, if you wanted to explore the surround sound field, you could fill out the system with an AV receiver and some more Focals, possibly relegating the 705Vs to surround duties if you wish. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1559 Registered: Oct-04 | What's the street price on those Focal 705Vs? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1560 Registered: Oct-04 | Nevermind, I found it http://www.musicdirect.com/search/advanced.php 705V $450/pr. 706V $595/pr. |
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Silver Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 188 Registered: Mar-06 | The NAD C320 is available for $299 at Saturday Audio Exchange: http://www.saturdayaudio.com/ Chris, how do the Wharfedale Diamond speakers compare with Infinity Beta? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1562 Registered: Oct-04 | I'm not sure what's going on with Wharfedale, their products are increasing scarce in my neck of the woods, I think they're having distribution problems. I've not heard the Diamond 9.2 & Beta 20 side-by-side (I think I've only heard the 9.1, but I may be wrong?), and I know I'm likely to sound like some of the sycophants that want "talk-up" what it is they own to make themselves feel better about their decision, nevertheless, I think the Beta 20 are the best value going in a large bookshelf. The Beta 20 are $250 speakers that sound like $1,000 speakers, they are heavier (better braced?), have a wave-guided tweeter (better high-range dispersal), and the use of C.M.M.D. allows (not theoretically, IMHO) the low-end to play deeper & stay tighter, and distinct than any other bookshelf I've owned or heard, including the Paradigm Studio 20v.4; and even if one were to prefer the Studio 20, there's no way anyone can convince me the difference is worth a 5 or 6-fold increase in price. But audiophiles can be peculiar people, and people should buy what they like & can afford. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1563 Registered: Oct-04 | The NAD C320 is an integrated amp, the OP was looking for a receiver. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9334 Registered: Dec-04 | CM, have you heard the PSB B25? Might be a one trick pony, with bass as a hole card, but I liked the range that they offered. Coming in at about $490, I saw last. Plus stands, for max effect. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1570 Registered: Oct-04 | Nuck, Yes I've heard them, but it was a long time ago, I do remember liking them quite a bit. All of the "budget" entries have really up'd the ante these days, the Beta however are not Infinity's budget entry, that would be the very impressive Primus series, the Betas are a step-up. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 818 Registered: Jun-07 | I would say an Entry speaker from PSB would be considered as good as the Beta range of Infinity. Both are very good budget speakers though. Cant go wrong with either IMO. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1572 Registered: Oct-04 | Why? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9337 Registered: Dec-04 | The Alpha's can run with a good crowd. Stands, support, stands. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 820 Registered: Jun-07 | "The Alpha's can run with a good crowd." I agree with Nuck. My dealer carries PSB as well as Paradigm and Monitor Audio. I have heard the Alpha's a couple times, and must say they really are a budget killer. My mom has a pair of 4 year old Alpha's for her Condo, with a little entry level NAD integrated, that I set up for her. I got her some Monitor Audio stands, and filled them with kitty litter. To this day, I can't get over the sound those little buggers produce. A true budget killer. That said though, I have only heard the Beta's in a store with a crap setup. But from what I read, the Beta's are also a budget killer and are able to compete with the Alpha's, and do in most reviews. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1584 Registered: Jun-05 | I really dont think the Alpha standmounters are as good as the Beta 20,actually im quite sure their not,the Beta 20's are monsters at their current selling price,they are a unbeatable bargain,Infinity really hit the mark with the 20's they are a very good speaker indeed. |
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New member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 2 Registered: Nov-07 | Thanks to all who replied so far. Getting some specific recommendations has been very helpful in guiding the search. I'm going to see about the Beta 20s. In the case of the budget being larger (on the order of $1000, what do you all think of the Infinity Beta 50s (assuming that my wife would be willing to accept a pair of more conspicuous tower speakers into our home)? I don't know anything about NAD. How do they compare to outlaw? There was an outlaw 1050 receiver for sale on VideogoN that was reasonably priced. One reviewer said he was very pleased with it in a 2-channel setup. On the other hand, pretty much every professional review I've read about a piece of budget-end audio equipment so far has been nearly glowing, so it's hard to discern much separation between their favorites and least favorites. Reminder about the questions: Beta 50 vs 20? Outlaw vs. NAD? thanks again, Jeff |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1581 Registered: Oct-04 | Outlaw Audio is an internet-direct company that has received some excellent reviews, I'm pretty sure all their products are US-built. I think it's fare to say that a google search will make it obvious that NAD is one of the most respected companies in the audio industry. I think for many, NAD equipment represents a transitional point into high-end audio. As for the differences between the Beta 20 & 50, other than the obvious, perhaps this thread will help (starting with post #47) http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=647998&page=2 |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9348 Registered: Dec-04 | All the Outlaw stuff is built in China. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 825 Registered: Jun-07 | Nuck is right. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9353 Registered: Dec-04 | There is something you don't hear every day. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1583 Registered: Oct-04 | False advertising? http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS211US21 2&q=outlaw+audio |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1584 Registered: Oct-04 | I found this, but I'm not sure if it's accurate: From Billy Budapest http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=85075 "Some of the Outlaw equipment appears to be OEM'ed by Sherwood (for example, their HT processors and HT receivers). Their subs are OEM'ed by Hsu RFesearch. Their stereo receiver is, I believe, their own design manufactured in China. Their multi-channel amps are made in the USA. I'm not sure who OEM'ed them, but the back panels look pretty similar to Adcom products. All-in-all, great stuff for the price." |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1585 Registered: Oct-04 | So if true, I stand corrected. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9355 Registered: Dec-04 | But look darn good doing so, I must say. Who doesn't build in Asia anymore? The quality can be just as good as anywhere. Even though the disposal of contaminated waste is a little more suspect. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 827 Registered: Jun-07 | Sherwood NewCastle, there is a company you do not hear of very often on this Forum. They claim that their products are made in the U.S., who knows. Their products 'look' cheap, but from reviews I have read, their stuff is suppose to sound pretty decent. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9357 Registered: Dec-04 | Outlaw built their first amps from the Sherwood 150 series of amps, and gained their name from a couple of ex-sherwood guys. The sherwood stuff was like right in line with the better Fisher gear. Makes for strange bedfellows. And good gear. |
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New member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 3 Registered: Nov-07 | Hi all, I just returned from Boston last night where I spent some time in Natural Sound in Framingham. I haven't set all up yet, but the new residents in my apartment are: PSB Image B25 Klipsch KSW 200 Denon DRA-397 The speakers and sub are used but looked and sounded alright to me in the showroom. Can't wait to set it all up! Thanks everyone for your input and suggestions. I'll let you know how it goes in a few days. Cheers, Jeff |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 436 Registered: Feb-07 | Outlaws multichannel amps, I believe, are built on an ATI chassis, and manufactured in the USA. The 2200 monoblocks are made in China. I know, cause I've been dinged with the import duties. Not sure about their processors and receivers. |
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Bronze Member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 15 Registered: Nov-07 | So we got the Denon DRA-397 (80wpc), the Klipsch sub, and traded the PSB speakers for a pair of store demo B&W 602 S2s. We are psyched!! The speakers are great, and we just got the whole setup coarsely installed just to try it out. First impressions: The sound quality is great, but it's not very loud at all. The upper end of the volume on this system would not inspire a party. What's wrong here? L and R mains are set up properly into A, and the sub is run off of the L and R B speaker outputs. This was the advice we got at the store, as it would allow us to easily switch off the sub if someone wants to go to bed. Both A and B are on, Loudness on or off it's still not very loud. We need to get a longer cable to connect the CD player, so we've just run a line from my laptop into the tape input to try things out. Computer volume is cranked. On my tiny old $50 system this put out a lot of sound. So what's wrong??? We didn't crank the speakers in the store on this receiver, though we did hook them up to a more "major league" rotel amp there and they put out a lot of sound. So is 80W just not enough to power the speakers? All suggestions are welcome. Cheers, Jeff |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9436 Registered: Dec-04 | JE, Denon is not known for overly powerful receivers. Your 80w unit is probably giving it's all to reach what you have now, and falls well short of 80 actual watts. Rotel is noted for delivering all of the power that they advertize. |
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Bronze Member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 16 Registered: Nov-07 | Hmmm.. that is a real disappointment. Then it's putting out 80 whats? |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 261 Registered: Nov-06 | You said the sub is run off of the left and right B speaker outputs. That doesnt sound right. Doesnt your receiver have a sub output? I am assuming your sub is powered and not passive. The denon, even at its fake 80 watts per channel, can get the 602s plenty loud, but if you are trying to power a sub with it---forget it. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 262 Registered: Nov-06 | Also, the Klipsch sub should have a power swith if you want to just shut it off; or use the receiver to decrease the sub level. Both of my subs have internal 500 watt amps ( the amount of power a sub has is not a direct relation to its output capabilities but an 80 watt receiver cant run a sub efficiently or at all) |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 263 Registered: Nov-06 | Hi OP- The Klipsch KSW 200 is a powered subwoofer; built unitl 1998 according to the Klipsch website. Get a subwoofer cable and go from the sub output on the denon to the sub line input on the sub. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9439 Registered: Dec-04 | The sub should be fine getting the high level in from speaker 'B'. The sub does not present any load to the Denon, and the outputs are pparallel 'A and B'. But...switch the sub leads to speaker 'A' with the other speaker wires and try that out. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 264 Registered: Nov-06 | Nuck- why would you suggest a crossover arrangment instead of using the sub output on the receiver? |
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Bronze Member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 20 Registered: Nov-07 | OK, that's several opinions! The way it's currently set up on the left and right B output, is the Denon powering the sub speaker? The salesman I bought it from suggested this arrangement because it allows the sub to be switched off easily by shutting off the B outputs If I run them both off of the A side as per Nuck's suggestion what does that do to the combined impedance of the system? If I use the sub output from the Denon does that then use an internal crossover from the receiver? What happens when you run the A output from the receiver to the sub and run the mains off of the sub outputs? just curious, haven't tried it though. |
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Bronze Member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 21 Registered: Nov-07 | It seems that this is what Nuck is suggesting might be happening: If you use your speaker B terminals, they must be internally wired in parallel with the speaker A terminals or you'll notice a dramatic drop in the volume level of your main speakers. If this occurs, connect your subwoofer wires to the same amplifier speaker terminals that are being used to drive your main speakers (parallel connection). from the sub's manual would that cause a volume drop even if the sub is switched off or unplugged but still wired in on the B side? |
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Bronze Member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 22 Registered: Nov-07 | more: the sub is powered. a google search for klipsch KSW 200 takes you right to the klipsch web page with a link to the manual. re-read nuck's response about it not presenting any load to the denon. thanks. are the A and B high level speaker outputs likely to be wired in parallel on my receiver? |
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Silver Member Username: SerniterPiscataway, New Jersey USA Post Number: 196 Registered: Mar-06 | Disconnect the sub and see what kind of volume you achieve with the speakers alone. If the volume is now sufficient, it would be worthwhile using a different input into the sub. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9442 Registered: Dec-04 | Marc, this high level input to the sub provides bass no matter the musical source, it guarantees a steadier match from source(whatever format) to the speakers and sub. JE, the sub has no effect on the load that the receiver sees, it is a scabbed signal handles by the sub XO. Run the mains offa the subout?Huh? The A and B are internally paralleled. However, introducing any load onto B may trigger some sort of voodoo thing. Try just the A. And try a subout connection, sometimes the source material, or player, do not put out. Unless you buy it a couple of drinks. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 265 Registered: Nov-06 | Hye Nuck. With the external crossover arrangement, don't you have to adjust the crossover frequencies both at the receiver and the sub? I like to just set the cutoff at the receiver level and run the sub signal out of the sub input on the sub. Just simpler. Your comment about a steadier source is interesting. For home theater applications though, I like my mains/center to have usable extension to about 65 at least, crovver set at 80 hZ, and a sub that can dip down to the mid 20s at least. ALl of this can be accomplished with an external crossover set up to be sure, just a little more fiddling I suppose. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9447 Registered: Dec-04 | No setup at the receiver, Marc, the sub gets the same full range as the mains.. For LFE ,yes if the player and receiver deliver, then the sub will do it's movie job. For music, just adjust the freq for the sub to match the mains in rolloff. The sub will get/XO what is required. |
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Bronze Member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 23 Registered: Nov-07 | Wow, Maybe it was checking the connections and moving the speakers, or maybe it was cleaning my ears out this morning, or maybe I was just being a p*$$y with the volume yesterday, but this thing can put out more sound now than I will ever need. Seriously, I discovered 2 things: 1) max volume is +18dB on my receiver, not zero, so I hadn't pushed it yesterday. 2) Counting Crows Live in NYC offers a better test of the possible output of the stereo than Glen Gould playing Bach's Goldberg Variations or twinkly folk singers on solo acoustic guitar. At -50dB it sounds pleasant and warm. At -35 I cracked a smile. At -18dB my wife yelled at me. This made me smile more. I can run it at -0dB with no noticable distortion or clipping, though at that level both my dogs scowled at me then left the room. That was my signal that I had surpassed an acceptable volume. I pushed it to -6dB with the Counting Crows album, but decided that either I would blow a speaker or an eardrum (is that a real threat? - the speaker, that is), so I've eased it back a bit. I think we could have a rockin' party. Sorry for the false alarms, and thanks for your help with the volume issues. Nuck, the sub has high level inputs and outputs. I think I was asking about whether it would be a bad idea to run the high level main speaker 'A' output into the sub and then run from the high level sub outs to the main speakers. I don't think I have any way of adjusting the crossover on the line-level sub output from the receiver, and I can't even find out what it's preset to. However, the high level outputs on the sub have a high pass filter that can be set at 40 or 80, and the sub itself has an adjustable low pass filter that can be adjusted continuously from 40 to 120hZ. Ideally, where would you want the sub to pick up the low end on these speakers? cheers, jeff Finally, the buzzing. I put the "cheater" ground lift adapter on the surge protector and have run everything through it. Buzz is better, though there's some faint static in the speakers. This could be the noise the receiver makes when it's happy, I suppose. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 266 Registered: Nov-06 | I read the Klipsch website on that sub-- it claims extension to 29 as an FYI. For movies, I'd set it at 80, both due to the sub extension as well as the 602s. These crossover frequencies are not brick walls as an FYI. Meaning the cutoffs are not exact and 80 doesnt mean a clean 81 to the mains and anything below 80 goes entirely to the sub. Just an FYI. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2582 Registered: Sep-04 | Jeff, I'd crossover at around 60hz or even perhaps 50hz. 602s have quite a bit of output around 50hz and can easily excite room modes at about this frequency. For movies you get better results using the low level input but you seem set on using the high level inputs. Most Denon amps allow you to treat the stereo and surround modes differently. Worth reading the manual on that. Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 269 Registered: Nov-06 | I'm with Frank as far as 60 HZ being the optimal crossover frequency for those speakers as mains. That Denon does have a subwoofer pre-out on the back and the receiver is set for an 80 HZ crossover as a default. But 60 HZ would be better for sure overall. |
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New member Username: Lloyd1029Post Number: 1 Registered: Dec-07 | Hi All, Like Jeff I have been lurking around for the last several days and heading down the same path on my first true home system. Thanks for all the great info in this string of posts. I have already purchased a Onkyo 805 rec/amp and now trying to decide on speakers. This will be a multi-purpose set-up, 70%music(alomst all kinds) 30% movies/surround sound but now working on my main speakers and the rest to come later. I have listend to the 685's but read better comments on the 602's and 603's. The 603's are way over my budget but might be able to swing a used set. my questions are; 602 verses 603. Will the Onkyo will have enough power for either. Finally I read something about the B&W's sound being too in front of the speaker. I understand the comment but just wondering about this. Thanks, Lloyd |
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Bronze Member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 24 Registered: Nov-07 | Frank: this is just a 2 channel stereo receiver, so I'm not sure what "surround" would be on it. I wrote to Denon about the sub pre-out. Their tech support replied: "is not actually an lfe output, but rather a full range mono output. You are actually going to set you cross over on your subwoofer itself." I'll try it at 50-60hZ and see how it sounds. However, there's no way to cut the frequencies out of the mains without running the signal through the high pass filter on the subwoofer itself. I guess that what I'm asking is if you'd just run them full range or try to filter them? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2591 Registered: Sep-04 | Jeff, My mistake! I thought the Denon was a surround amp. Oh well, in that case, it's your choice whether to use the full range mono signal (which is fine) or the high level inputs on your sub to set the crossover frequency. Some people prefer the latter, some the former. John, welcome to the madhouse...!  The Onkyo TX-SR 805 is a powerful machine capable of running a full set of 600 series or the replacement 68x series easily. I wouldn't actually call the B&W sound upfront. That's for the likes of KEF really. B&Ws tend to be full and rounded (too rounded for me, too warm, but I like a leanish presentation). In my view the new 68x series is a LOT better than the older 600 series. Generally speaking, the 68x series has less cabinet resonances thanks to better cabinet build and more astute porting. The 68x series also has far better treble integration. It wasn't difficult for you to be able to separate the treble unit specifically from its midrange brother below it with the 600 series. The 68x series integrates the crossover region far better so it's a smoother transition to the treble unit. Finally, the treble unit itself is much improved in the 68x series over the 600. It had a tendency to spit at you but the new series has a much cleaner purer sound. From my point of view, the 603 is a big boom box that does nothing right and the 602 is a smaller boom box that does only a few things right. In 10 years I only ever sold one pair of 603s because 'da man really wanted his bass man' and only one set of 602s because in my opinion there were far better things around, and large standmounts are pretty undesirable in the UK. The 68x series is much better judged. I'm still not a big fan of the presentation, but it's far more sensibly balanced with a much cleaner and more integrated sound than the rough and ready 600 series. the 685 is a very nice speaker indeed. Don't discount the little 686 either - it's a lovely little speaker (some people prefer them over the 685). You could start with this, then later add a centre (if you can go for the bigger of the two it's got that lovely midrange FST unit), and eventually use the 686s at the back when you replace them at the front with 685s or larger. Please note that the 600 series has been discontinued so you should be finding them at discount prices. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: Lloyd1029Post Number: 2 Registered: Dec-07 | Frank, Thanks for the info. I'm finally starting to filter all the data, info and reviews down. I do like the 685s and will go back and listen to them again this weekend. Since I am looking for a set up that I will most likely have for 10 years or more, I have to ask, in the $700-1000USD price range for mains what is your, and others, top three recommendations that I should be listening too besides B&W and considering, as you noted, my plan to expand with a center and sub in the coming months. I plan to get surrounds too but due to my open house layout these will have to be in the ceiling or ceiling mounted. The system is in my family/kitchen/dining area which is about 16 ft wide (TV & speaker wall) by 30ft deep with wood and tile floors. thanks again for your help. John |
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New member Username: Lloyd1029Post Number: 3 Registered: Dec-07 | BTW, I've been watching some used 602 series S2 and series S3 for sale on ebay. The series 2 are going for ~$350USD and the series 3 for ~$530USD. Just wondering since you can get the 685s for around $600-650 and they are better, why would someone by the 602 S3's? just wondering outloud.. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyPost Number: 1631 Registered: Oct-04 | "Just wondering since you can get the 685s for around $600-650 and they are better, why would someone by the 602 S3's? just wondering outloud.." Are you sure the 685 are "better" than the 602 S3? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyPost Number: 1632 Registered: Oct-04 | http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=888127 |
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Bronze Member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 25 Registered: Nov-07 | I just bought my 602 S3s last weekend from a local hi-fi dealer for $480+tax with a full 5 year warranty. They were store demos in mint condition that had never been used, though they'd sat on the showroom floor for a while. The safety plugs were still in place where the banana cables insert, so I am certain that no one had ever even hooked them up at the store. Since they're discontinued now, I'd be inclined to look for a demo pair. Although Frank apparently doesn't like them, they sound great to me. If I had a larger budget I'd have bought Focal Choras 807v bookshelf speakers. However, I'm completely thrilled with the B&Ws for what I paid. jeff |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 271 Registered: Nov-06 | Well that was an interesting read. Some heat in that exchange too. I happen to agree with " Chris II" about the 802Ds bein the real deal in the B&W line of speakers. |
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Bronze Member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 26 Registered: Nov-07 | I think you guys may be off by a few zeros, Chis and Mark. We're laking down in the ~$500/pair range. The 802Ds are 20 times that price! I like my 95 nissan altima, but they also make a nice F1 racer which drives better. duh!! just kidding around; no harm meant. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9457 Registered: Dec-04 | The speakers are one thing, the Classe amps to run them are another! |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 273 Registered: Nov-06 | Ya. The 800 series are steep as far as price. But just considering their sonic capabilities, its kinda like the 800 series and then " pick a guy" as far as the rest of the line.( there are like, 80 different models B&W makes last time I counted.) And Nuck is right, the juice needed to make em hum aint exactly cheap either. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2600 Registered: Sep-04 | Marc, Some heat? I don't see any heat in this exchange - not sure where you got that from. Chris, the 685 removes many of the nasties of the 602, such as the cabinet resonance, port honk, slightly disconnected treble and the treble resonances courtesy of the old tweeter. Now my only problem with the 685 is the rather big bass presentation. So yes, in my view the 685 is heaps better than a 602. John, The 602S3 has a strong loyal following. A lot of people like them very much. As Jeff points out they're not my cup of tea so I'm less likely to praise them. Overall, though, I just see the 600 series as something rather old hat which has been revamped substantially in the form of the 68x series and not before time. The only model in the 600 series which I miss is the baby 600 which was also my favourite in that range. There's no spiritual successor to that model. As you're on the west side of the Atlantic, I'd suggest you also consider the Totem range. The Dreamcatcher is a fabulous tiny speaker with a big sound. Add a Totem Dreamcatcher sub or better and the result is a very difficult one to beat for similar money in my opinion. The Dreamcatcher centre isn't bad, though it should be better for the price. The surround options from Totem are in-wall/in-ceiling models and high on-wall dipoles called the Lynks. The Lynks should be placed about 2m up on the side walls (pretty much as per the THX spec). So Totem offer all the options you're looking for at around the sort of cash you're interested in. One other option available from Totem if you wish to wall mount the speakers (say, on either side of a wall mounted flat panel) is the Tribe range which are far more impressive soundwise than they look. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyPost Number: 1633 Registered: Oct-04 | The Totem Dreamcatchers are real beauties, very similar to the Monitor Audio R90 in many respects. I owned the two for a short while when I was looking to upgrade the R90, but I found the two so similar, that I decided to stick with the R90. |
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Bronze Member Username: GuillemotLansing, Mi Post Number: 27 Registered: Nov-07 | Naw, no heat from me. I realize that folks like different things. For me, buying the 602S3s meant a transition from shopping for a stereo to listening to music. I recognized that I could easily have spent all of eternity looking for the best deal on the perfect speaker (the Focal's will be pretty cheap in 20 years!) without actually having one. At some point you have to just go with your gut and get what you like best of the things you've experienced in your price range. I listened to just eight different bookshelf speakers from four manufacturers and called it a game; that was all the time I had available. There's always something better just around the corner... someday I'll take a peek. For now, I'm happy to have music in my life again. cheers, jeff |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5766 Registered: Feb-05 | Music...that's what it's about Jeff! |
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New member Username: Lloyd1029Post Number: 4 Registered: Dec-07 | Thanks all for the great info and insight. Jeff you are right, a newby like myself can spend years analyzing every tidbit of web info and never buy anything. As my dad used to say time to s**t or get off the pot. I will make one stop today and one this weekend to listen to couple of different setups. B&W salesman said I can try the 685s for a couple of weeks and can bring them back if they don't work for me. I will let you know what I end up with.. Merry Christmas to everyone and all the best in the coming new year.. John |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9465 Registered: Dec-04 | And therein lies the beauty of the purchase, Jeff. Like choosing a mate, run with it! |
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Silver Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 156 Registered: Aug-06 | John, If a dealer will let you borrow some speakers for a couple of weeks, make friends with him. That's where you want to buy. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2606 Registered: Sep-04 | Hey, taking years to get something is not the purview of newbies only. I take absolutely ages to make a decision to buy any HiFi component and I've not only been into this for many years, but I'm a part-time HiFi salesman! Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: Rysa3Houston, Texas Post Number: 276 Registered: Nov-06 | hey Frank-- I meant the link for the avsforum thread- a lot of heat in that exchange for sure! |
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New member Username: Lloyd1029Post Number: 5 Registered: Dec-07 | Okay, I have listened to a set of the 685s, a demo set from dealer, for several hours now. I haven't worked much on getting everything dialed in, but I guess I am just not satisfied with them. Main complaint is not enough clarity and presentation in the upper end. Maybe it is my age and hearing loss catching up with me. The 685s have very good stage presence, sound and can easily fill my room, but I feel like the upper end is muted or in a fog. I listened to a set of B&W XT2s yesterday and liked what I was hearing and they seemed to fill in and present the areas I felt I was missing with the 685s. My main concern with the XT2s is I don't see any review or opinion info on them. So some new questions: Has anyone listened to the XT2s and or have any info on them? Based on my comments above about the 685s, does anyone have any alternate recommendations that they think might fill in the presentation and clarity in the upper end that I my ears/brain seem to be missing with the 685s. FYI my price point is $800-1200 USD for the pair and either book case or floors(not too big, gotta keep the misses happy too). Happy New Year to all and thanks again for everyone's comments. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyPost Number: 1658 Registered: Oct-04 | Are you sure it wasn't an issue with any of the other electronics? Did you observe that same trait when switching from from component to component? Do you have access to a Monitor Audio dealer? At your price-point, I would suggest auditioning their RS Series before making a decision. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2616 Registered: Sep-04 | John, That's how I feel about 685s, although I would characterise it as too much bass rather than too little treble. As a direct price competitive comparison have a look at the Focal 706V. far more open treble as a result of a leaner character in the bass, with more expressive midrange to boot. |
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New member Username: Lloyd1029Post Number: 6 Registered: Dec-07 | Hi Christopher, I listened to the 685s on three different systems, a Rotel powered system at one dealer, a McIntosh based system at the dealer I got the 685s from and my Onkyo system at home. So I feel like I had a good sampling of systems and sound. I still liked what I heard from the 685s and may even consider them for a future system but just don't seem to deliver what I am looking for now. The Monitors are one line I want to listen too and trying to find someone in the Dallas area who carries the line but no luck yet. Same for the Focals. Seems B&W is the big seller here in the Dallas area. The dealer I got the B&Ws from has some Paradigms coming in next week that I will be listening too. I will be traveling in the coming weeks, in the US and Asia, and plan to see if I can find other dealers with different systems to listen too. Thanks for your help and I'll keep you posted on the quest. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 997 Registered: May-06 | JL, What shops in Dallas have you checked into? Send me a PM if you like. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 1037 Registered: Nov-06 | I also did not care for the sound of the B&W 685, powered by Rotel equipment. I found the treble recessed, and the bass overblown. In comparison with the KEF iQ3 (which I purchased), I felt the KEF had the edge in treble clarity, but without being overly bright. The midrange on the KEF is slightly on the forward side to my ears, but it is very smooth and well integrated. The bass on the KEF also sounded less out of proportion. |
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New member Username: Lloyd1029Post Number: 7 Registered: Dec-07 | Hi Michael, I sent you a PM but guess it didn't go through. The shops I have been to are Marvin's in FtW, the tow Home Theater stores in South Lake and Arlington and two other places in Keller. I work near DFW airport (northeast side) so it is easy for me to get to most any place in the metroplex just haven't found too many in the Dallas area. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1009 Registered: May-06 | John, I did get your PM and sent this in reply (slightly edited) to your "ironman" email address. John, Stereo East in Plano; http://www.stereoeast.com/ has Monitor Audio but when I heard it almost 2 years ago the speakers were poorly placed and were incredibly boomy. Hi-End Audio and Theater; http://www.hi-endaudio.com/ B&W Krell McIntosh Classe Rotel VPI among other things. Vu is very well educated on his products. John Fort Audio; http://www.johnfortav.com/ It is a little difficult to get his attention but he had more to do with listening to what I wanted and patiently guiding me to where I wanted to be. He has a variety of stuff that changes periodically. I bought my Rouge Audio Magnum 99 Pre-Amp and Anthony Gallos Ref. 3.1 floor standers from John as well as a variety of other stuff including by record cleaner, Nitty Gritty. Audio Concepts; http://www.audioconceptsonline.com/ Higher end sort of place. Another place where they know their equipment but they are not cheap. I bought my Linn from Byron here. If you stop in any of these last three places you can tell Vu, John, or Byron that I said hello. There is also Star Power but I would not advise going there. Best Buy mentality on four to five figure gear. Lastly there is another place near Henderson on the east of 75, Modea again I think. Mostly B&W with Mac, Rotel, and Krell. If you are serious about wanting to buy something dedicate some time with John and openly tell him what you want. He has enough of a variety so you do not have to worry about him trying to fit you into what he needs to move. He would be my first choice to do business with but you will find more product to listen to at Vu's shop and Byron's. Regards, Mike |
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New member Username: Lloyd1029Post Number: 8 Registered: Dec-07 | Thanks Mike, really appreciate the info. I will work on getting to see these guys maybe starting this weekend. After this week I am traveling on and off till the middle of March but hope to find and visit some shops along the way. Thanks again for the help from you and everyone else and I'll keep you posted on my progress, John |
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