B&W 805S or Epos ES11 Loudspeakers

 

New member
Username: Portnoy

Post Number: 1
Registered: Nov-07
I have been saving for five years now and looking forward to the time (which has finally arrived)when I can upgrade my Arcam Alpha 7,8 and 8P amps and cd player and EposWS11 speakers to Arcams (better?) FMJ Series matched with the highly recommneded B&W 805S.
On hearing the B&W's for the first time I was extremely disappointed with the sound, finding the sound very light and trebly unlike my beloved ES11's which have "body"and treble clarity when required and which have served me for the past 15 years.
Does anyone share my views?
I want to like them but I don't like what I am hearing.
Would I get to like them?
I can't believe that I don't share the views/reviews of the many critic and experts reviews that i've read over the years.

Help ! Someone please !

Henry
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 11769
Registered: May-04
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Why did you think you'd like them? Had you never heard them before but just started saving with those speakers in mind? Based on what you'd read?


Where'd you hear them? With your CD's or their's? Do you think this was a fair demonstration? I don't believe most people would consider any current B&W speaker to be "light" though crisp through the top end might be a reasonable description. Did you compare them to any other speaker in the same shop?


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New member
Username: Portnoy

Post Number: 2
Registered: Nov-07
Thanks Jan for your response.
I thought that I should like them because every mazazine that I read spoke so highly of them.
My Hi-Fi dealer demonstrated the speakers with my CD's (rock/metal) using Primare, Lavardin and Krell equipment amps/cd players.
Maybe "crisp" describes the sound better but i found thewwm lacking in bass. Maybe it was my initial reraction on heraing them first after listening to the Epos for 15 years or more and which are strong in bass.
I compared them to Spendor speakers which i found better although not better than my Epos.
Maybe I'll go and give the B&W another listen and report back.
Thanks again.}
 

Silver Member
Username: Nickelbut10

Post Number: 740
Registered: Jun-07
Give them a listen, and some others as well. If we all liked what the magazines like, Jan would be a NAD fan and I a Rotel fan. But this is not true. Everyone hears something different in the equipment. What is your system that you have now, lacking to you? If you love the sound of your 15 year old Epos, why upgrade? Can you bring the 805's home for an audition? Im sure the dealer will let you.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 9252
Registered: Dec-04
Henry, the 805's, mounted solidly to the floor and placed closer to a rear wall(not a side wall) will amaze you with quality bass, probably to 34Hz in room.
But they ain't made for Ozzy.

More like Sinatra type bass.
That's good bass, with a good recording(most are).
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 11770
Registered: May-04
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I think you might be hearing a very different presentation from the B&W's when compared to what you've listened to for 15 years. Normally in this situation I would suggest you go refresh your memory of what live music sounds like but, in this case, I think that would only serve to further convince you the B&W's are not the speaker for you.


Let me ask; have you read a review of the B&W where the reviewer commented on the presentation of the speaker when playing metal? There are probably better speakers for the music you prefer. The B&W's tend to show a bit too much of what's being put into them and most rock/metal isn't likely to sound that good when run through such a speaker. What did your dealer have to say about this?


I can somewhat suggest you are missing the point of a better speaker. Did you ask the dealer to show off their speakers? To play music which brings out the best in what they sell? If so, I can't imagine they played rock/metal. Their idea of what makes a speaker excel is probably first of all tied to the midrange. Some of the best advice about audio is to concentrate on the midrange above all else. If the midrange is correct, then most everything else about a very good speaker will follow. The speaker will image properly and a decent soundstage should appear in front of you. The tone of the vocals and instruments should be appealling. Even the dynamics of a speaker are tied to its midrange prowess.


You don't mention those are qualities you listen for. If that's the case, the B&W probably isn't for you. Why don't you bring your current speakers into the shop on a quiet weekday afternoon and do some comparisons? Have the shop show you what they can offer and find out how your speakers sound in their room. Rooms make all the difference in what you hear. Possibly when you hear your speakers in the dealer's room, you'll get a better idea of how to proceed.

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Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2286
Registered: May-05
"The B&W's tend to show a bit too much of what's being put into them and most rock/metal isn't likely to sound that good when run through such a speaker."

By this do you mean that they're too revealing for rock/metal? If their revealing nature soley makes them a bad choice for rock/metal, I beg to differ. I've heard far more revealing speakers and systems that rock/metal sounded very good on. Bryston monoblocks and PMC speakers with active XOs come to mind. Halcro monoblocks and Verity Parsifals also come to mind.

Bad recordings exist in every genre. They may be a little harder to come by in some genres, but they're definitely there. Some may consider a few of the tracks in your Emma demo disc poorly recorded, due to hiss and other noises.

My main point is that a very revealing system reveals everything - good and bad. Regardless of the genre, you shouldn't focus on or obsess over the bad parts of a recording. The worst recordings can have some very good strong points. If I couldn't get passed the tape hiss on one or two tracks on your Emma CD (I can't remember which ones exactly), I'd have missed the phenominal job they did with the voice.

If you're focusing on flaws, you're missing what's most important. As you've previously stated in prehaps not the exact same words to a gentleman who was a fan of Greatful Dead bootlegs - you need to have the ability to listen passed the recording flaws and into the music itself.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2287
Registered: May-05
For the record, I think overall B&Ws aren't the best choice for rock/metal due to their polite nature, not their resolution. Not enough PRaT to keep my attention.

They can sound phenominal with Classical.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 11773
Registered: May-04
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" ... you need to have the ability to listen passed the recording flaws and into the music itself."





Yes, that's exactly my point. But most people don't start off with that mentality. I do believe a better system should make more music accessible and not fewer recordings listenable. But most people forget the pleasure of listening to music when they begin to search out "high end" audio. They listen to the speakers, or the amplifier, or CD player or imaging, soundstaging or PRaT.


Not that there's anything wrong with any of those qualities. But they are not the essence of music. That's why when I put together the Emma Demo I included a scratchy, noisy, nasal mono recording and a few things that make you work a bit to get past the recording to find the music and the performers. The Canned Heat selection isn't a great recording but the music is a tight boogey. The Simon and Garfunkel isn't anything more than left/right with center fill but the piano, vocals and radio are more complex than their parts. Ringo's drums occupy the entire stage width but that's not what's important in that recording. So, the Emma Demo is as much about finding the music as it is about finding the right piece of equipment. In a way, the effort in making the disc was to present selections that don't rely on audiophile tricks to make the music sound interesting. My opinion is, the better the system, the more interesting any music will be. But most people don't begin with that attitude.


I don't know the OP and I don't know what he listens for or values (which is one reason I seldom get involved in threads asking for product recommendations). But I didn't see anything that suggested his preference was for the qualities the Emma Demo strove to capture. At the moment he seems to be basing his reactions to the frequency balance of the sound he heard. Less bass - more treble. Pretty simple stuff. He says he's read lots of good reviews of the B&W's but appears to have missed the verbage about what the speaker really can achieve.


Let me ask you, Stu; when you've sat down in an audio salon to compare components, does the shop automatically place metal on the player? Even if that's what you ask to hear? Has anyone here read reviews where metal is the preferred selection for comparison's sake?


I'm not making any judgements about music genres. You can listen to anything you like as far as I'm concerned. But, when I was selling audio, I didn't even keep metal in my demo material. I always assumed anyone with a taste for metal, rap, hiphop, etc. would bring in what they wanted to hear or they would let me show off what I had to sell with the material that did the job. My ability to have various types of music was limited so I chose what I thought sold my products. If I was selling Klipsch, I used what displayed the Klipsch to their best advantage within what the client told me they preferred. Same with Thiel, Wilson, Spica, KEF, Infinity and so on.


So, I think HO has some decisions to make. He first of all, IMO, needs a reference point. I don't think telling him to listen to some live metal is going to convince him he should buy the B&W's. (And I really don't care what he buys.) But he's saved a fair amount of money to buy something that will improve his system sound. From the little he's posted so far I don't get the feeling he's working from any reference other than what sounds good to him on any particular album; and "sounds good" is based mostly on frequency balance. If his current speaker's frequency balance is going to be his reference, for lack of anything better, he needs to hear that reference in the same context as the speakers he's considering. Hearing his speakers in the dealer's room is the only way to begin that process unless the dealer would agree to bring all his speakers to HO's room. With his ES11's as his reference, he will have an easier time hearing what good qualities they possess against the good qualities of the dealer's wares. In that situation he might just hear further into the music with the contemporary speakers. He possibly will find new information, presented in a fresh fashion that he never noticed in his old system. He might work his way past frequency balance as his main priority.


Then, if he thinks it's worth proceeding with this dealer, he needs to let the dealer sell his merchandise. Get outside of his typical listening habits and hear some Sinatra or Miles Davis. He needs to hear the possibilities that exist rather than the bass. Because I can pretty much guarantee that if his listening habits stay confined to rock/metal, he won't be buying B&W's and he won't end up with a system that can find the music in any recording. Now, I'm not advocating he should begin buying up old, dead crooner's back issues; but unless he gets outside of his current thinking, he's going to miss alot of what's going on in a better system. And I'm certainly not suggesting he let his system dictate what music he chooses. I'm only suggesting he have a reference point from which to begin and he let the dealer do some work.


If he should decide the B&W's are the correct choice for the improvement he wishes to hear, he should certainly discuss with the dealer what his amplifier will do when mated to the B&W's. I can only assume quiet volume levels are not what this listener expects when he pays good money for high end speakers. Therefore, I don't really expect him to be unboxing a pair of 805's any time soon. But, if he does, he should be aware of what to expect when his Arcam amps meet 3 Ohms and a nasty electrical phase angle.


https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/405146.html


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Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 11774
Registered: May-04
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Rock covers too much territory to confine into one easy to describe category. Elvis, Pink Floyd and Ted Nugent are all "rock" in my book. The system you would put together if one was your single reference would probably be reasonably different from another system based on another choice. I hear that between my system and Mike Wodek's. Our choices in "rock" are not the same and our systems sound relatively different to reflect those preferences in music. What Mike requires is not what I value in many cases. I appreciate his priorities but they are not always the same as mine. And the other way around also.


I suspect metal also has more flavors than I care to consider. But let's just take "metal as a big, inclusive group and think about what you might hear when you use "metal" for demo purposes. If you take "metal" into a demo room, what do you expect to hear and what relevance does it play in your decision regarding which component to purchase? Can you buy a system that sounds good only on metal?


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Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 9260
Registered: Dec-04
Point of reference are a bit dificult, to be sure.
Between 'rock' and 'metal', I might pick Rush Moving pictures or permanent waves and Judas Priest 'brittish steel'.
YMMV.
I heard a Linn Uni player with Linn amps and Boston speakers years ago that just HAMMERED Priest!
So who knows?

I do know that Gallo 3.1 speakers can rock. Hard.
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