Speakers for Barn
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New member Username: FoxtPost Number: 1 Registered: Nov-07 | I have a barn / timberframe greatroom within which I would like to place speakers for audio (no home theater). This would be for both background music while entertaining, as well as kicking back and listening to a variety of music. I have no idea what I need to do for speakers in this room. Here is why ... the footprint of the room is 26 wide x 50 long; the walls of the room are 20 feet high, leading to a vaulted ceiling that runs along the long axis and reaches a height of 36 feet at the peak; the short axis on one side is filled with windows, on the other site it's filled with a staircase; it's post and bean construction, wood floors, so there is wood everywhere, and the ceiling is lined with 1x8's for the full length; about half of the footprint is covered with a loft that reduces the first floor in that area to 10' high ceilings, and the space above the loft is open to the ceiling; the main siting area is located in the half of the room that is clear of the loft (i.e the ceiling in the sitting area rises to 36 ft). My first thought was to admit defeat before I even start (too big of a space, lots of reflective surface, etc), and just put in a pair of decent floor standing speakers with a 2-channel receiver and live with it. Then I stumbled across this site, and thought that folks here would be up for a challenge. I have many questions: 1) I'm thinking that I first want to decide on the best speaker solution for the room, and work my receiver solution around that - is that a reasonable approach? 2) should I set up two systems, one for background music, one for something more hi-fi 3) how many channels should I be considering? 4) would there be advantages/disadvantages to placing distinct components at different elevations in the room (subwoofer on the ground level, elevate the other channels somewhere although placing them in the ceiling is not an option) Or should I just stick with my first thought and stick my old cerwin-vega's in a couple of corners and live with it? I am in way over my head when it comes to the audio system for this place ... |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 2637 Registered: Dec-06 | WHOO! Barn Speakers! I can't really say much without a budget, except that there's a program you can use to calculate reflections, yet I cannot remember it off the top of my head. This is not at the level where you would need top-of-the-line audiophile quality, but there's still a certain level of quality to be desired. I tend not to like CW too much. Budget? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9117 Registered: Dec-04 | Keep what ya got. Maybe big Klipch LaScala's for cheap. Hang dividing curtains to control the space. Good luck. |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 2641 Registered: Dec-06 | And stick a sub somewhere because without bass, the world is a sad, sad place. |
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New member Username: FoxtPost Number: 2 Registered: Nov-07 | Budget for speakers would be $3000. If I were to just keep what I have an add a sub-woofer, try to co-locate all of those in one section of the room, or locate the sub centrally and focus the other channels on the sitting area? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1471 Registered: Oct-04 | A pair of Cerwin-Vega CLS-215 is a good starting point http://www.overstock.com/Electronics/Cerwin-Vega-CLS215-15-inch-3-way-Tower-Spea kers/2118904/product.html Reviews of the CLSC-215 (older model, just different grill): http://www.audioreview.com/mfr/cerwin-vega/floorstanding-speakers/PRD_322004_159 4crx.aspx Honestly, I'd start with a pair of these and go from there. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1472 Registered: Oct-04 | More reviews of the CLS-215 http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000EHWDQS |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2242 Registered: May-05 | Maybe a stupid proposition, maybe not... What about setting up a system for nearfield listening? Get a very good system for this. Keep what you have now for entertaining and background music. Or, how about a good headphone system? A dedicated headphone amp, good set of headphones, and a good CD player can sound better than the best systems in some scenarios, this possbily being one of them. It can also be significantly cheaper. Again, keeping what you have now for background and entertaining. |
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New member Username: FoxtPost Number: 3 Registered: Nov-07 | Christopher, thanks I'll take a look at those. Stu, that's what I was thinking in my question #2. Set up one system for what you called nearfield listening, make that high quality and try and manage the dynamics of the room. Set up the other system to just provide low-level background music. Doesn't seem too far-fetched, but I am wondering how to arrange the speakers for each ... |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 2643 Registered: Dec-06 | I tend to specialize in subwoofers so I can't really help much here anyway haha... Once I heard what a REALLY good sub can sound like, I couldn't go back. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1474 Registered: Oct-04 | Tom, if you wind up going with the C-V! , please make sure to check back, I'd love to know how they work out. You might want to consider to look at other models in the CLS series as well. |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 391 Registered: Feb-07 | I'm with Nuck on this one, I've always wanted a pair of LaScala's. They're just too damned big for my house. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1476 Registered: Oct-04 | I've been thinking about this a bit, and another option is to go with an omni-directional design like the Ohm Acoustics Walsh or MicroWalsh http://www.ohmspeaker.com/productline.cfm , or perhaps something from Mirage http://www.miragespeakers.com/v2/product_types.php?open=types . I've auditioned the Ohm Walsh and it is exceptionally adept at creating gigantic sound-field where the speaker disappears. http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/walsh/micro.html |
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New member Username: FunkmeisterPost Number: 10 Registered: Nov-07 | This will sound harsh. But anyone who would spend $3000 for speakers for a barn has a lot more money than (s)he has sense. Get the cheapest you can buy, particularly if they will be exposed to the weather. Otherwise, buy some decent outdoor speakers, if there is such a beast. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1479 Registered: Oct-04 | If you bothered to read the OP & not just the title, you'd know the barn/timberframe room is a home Jimmy, hence, The Great Room, and not a word about a pig trough or hay loft. |
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New member Username: FoxtPost Number: 4 Registered: Nov-07 | Those Walsh or Micro Walsh's look interesting. Thanks for the link, I sent off an email with details on my situation and will let you know what they come back to me with. Their site leads me to believe that the model that would be appropriate for my situation (I read it to be pointing me to the 300-s3's vs. the Micro's) will be over my budget, we'll see what they say. The Mirage's don't look at interesting, but I only took a quick look ... |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1480 Registered: Oct-04 | The MicroWalsh are interesting, let us know what the guys over at Ohm recommend. |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 2646 Registered: Dec-06 | You guys are making me feel like you don't know what a subwoofer is.  |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9139 Registered: Dec-04 | Oh but we do Andre, we do. That is why some listeners do not need one. Some speakers negate the need for one also. Believe it or not, Ripley, hundreds of years of music have been made without a dedicated bass unit. Some stuff even impresses with 80-140Hz. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 693 Registered: Jun-07 | I agree with Nuck- a lot of music, if you have the right speakers, sounds faster and more accurate without a sub. If your listening to crap rap music or rave stuff, most likely a sub will do its justice. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9140 Registered: Dec-04 | Tom, in a space that large and for enjoying your music, it might take some mighty sub. Like, ohh, a REL StentorII or so. Ohm will call you back, guaranteed. Whether or not you like their stuff, well, let us know. They are a very customer focused company. |
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Bronze Member Username: FunkmeisterPost Number: 14 Registered: Nov-07 | Andre, a sub is not the panacea for all audio woes. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9153 Registered: Dec-04 | thank goodness! Sometimes, I gotta say, long live the BBC! |
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Silver Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 130 Registered: Aug-06 | Long live the BBC! |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1483 Registered: Oct-04 | ...wha? |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 2647 Registered: Dec-06 | I'm only suggesting a sub because it's a large space.  |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9157 Registered: Dec-04 | Andre, look again at the area/power ratio. The bass waves are going to fall off in such a large area pretty quickly. Stay with the tour kid. |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 2649 Registered: Dec-06 | Just stack about 10 Worxaudio subs there hahaha There's your 150dB at 25hz. Obviously the budget is 3k, not 80k. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 996 Registered: Nov-06 | again... a PA subwoofer system array is not the end-all, be-all... In a room that size, I also have to agree with the LaScala suggestion. The horn loaded bass bins will load a room that size without issue. The bass won't be super deep, but it will best what a sub will do both in sheer output and quality (especially at high SPL in a large room) |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 997 Registered: Nov-06 | WOW... I just re-read your room dimensions... that is HUGE! Even the LaScalas may have issues with the entire room :-), but a pair of klipschorns on the other hand?? K-horns use the same drivers, but dig a tad lower in the bass. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9175 Registered: Dec-04 | Or band stuff, some good pieces available. Kind of off the beaten path here, but it is like a gymnasium... Tapestries. |
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New member Username: FoxtPost Number: 5 Registered: Nov-07 | So I heard back from Ohm. They recommend a pair of Walsh 5 S-3 Sats sitting on top of a pair of their SBS-12's, 12 inch stands that include a sub .... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9190 Registered: Dec-04 | Do you have any idea at all how the Ohm's perform, Tom? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1491 Registered: Oct-04 | Is that within your budget, because if it is, I'd say that's your best bet. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9191 Registered: Dec-04 | Do they come packed in tapestries? Sorry, man, just keeping the room treatment thing in your head. Another post here has a fellow with a perfectly good stereo and a cruel room. The listening area is 50% of the experience. The music is 100% of course. The gear is 37.65%. That adds up to like 3800% or something, which is exactly how much fun this should be, I figgur. Are you getting excited yet? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1492 Registered: Oct-04 | Nuck's right, if they're an option, wall & floor treatments will go a very long way in improving SQ. |
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New member Username: FoxtPost Number: 6 Registered: Nov-07 | S-3's with SBS-12's would be $6500 - $6900, depending on choice of veneer. Yes, that is over my budget. Could drop it down to $4500 if I use the Walsh 200 s-3's with the SBS-12's, sacrifice controls that would let me tune to the room. Still over my budget. John at Ohm did confirm one thing, he'd go with two systems. He'd start with a system focused on serious listening first, and fill that in later with more gear to fill in the dead spots for background music ... I don't have any idea on how the Ohm's perform. I'd completely forgotten about them from earlier days in my youth when I spent more time on this kind of thing. There are several glowing reviews of them though. If I were gonna seriously consider that level of investment, I'd feel comfortable with giving them a try though, they give you 120 days for a home-trial. I agree that I need to do something with textiles to improve SQ. Area rugs are easy, wall coverings are more of a challenge. I'll have to think on that one. At this point I'm leaning to moving the C-W's in and adding a sub and give it a listen, then play with the textiles to see what kind of impact that various wall/floor coverings would play. Nuck may be right, I may get bigger bang for my buck out of some 14th century tapestries .... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9195 Registered: Dec-04 | Tom, for that $, I really gotta suggest a look at Anthony Gallo 3.1. Just take a peek. This means more power and room treatment for sure, and 14th century is overrated, IMO. Lots of reproductions to be had.However, when buying these repro's, it is highly advisable to hang them in free air for a year or so, as the gass-off of the materials used is nasty. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1493 Registered: Oct-04 | If you are considering the Klipsch LaScala II, here's a good link |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1494 Registered: Oct-04 | ...or http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem%26%26item%3D270184715151&ssPageNam e=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=017 |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithCanada Post Number: 2153 Registered: Feb-04 | A couple of thoughts... Klipschorns or La Scala would fill the room nicely. Klipschorns would need good corners (although false corners can be made to make placement easier) but if they could go in the corners of the 26-foot wall it would be near-ideal. Both those speakers image very well and completely disappear from the room, but of course you need to sit in the sweet spot for that to happen. This is in the crosshairs of the speakers, so seated at 13 feet from the front wall when Klipschorns are 26-feet apart. You would think that combining La Scala with a sub would give nearly-identical results than Klipschorns, but the upper-bass is smoother on Klipschorns so there is a little more to it than that. You can get used Klipschorns for around $2000 and La scala for a tad over half that. Of course. buying speakers that you have never heard is not usually a good idea. There a many Klipschorn and La Scala owners hanging out on the forums on the Klipsch web site, and perhaps there you could find an enthousiast near you who could give you an audition in his home. These horn-loaded speakers are a good match to your room because (1) they have very high sensitivity (105 dB/1W/1m) and (2) they are best when given lots of breathing room. You could also look at other horn-loaded speakers such as vintage Altec speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1509 Registered: Oct-04 | Any updates? |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1208 Registered: Dec-03 | I've always liked Mike's barn. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1552 Registered: Oct-04 | Tim! Great to see you back. I hope things are going well. What have been up to? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1553 Registered: Oct-04 | https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/407169.html |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1209 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks. I've decided not to go "big time" in the biz and have just been doing a few custom jobs for people. Much more enjoyable and it allows time for fun projects. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1555 Registered: Oct-04 | Good for you. Care to share any of those custom projects with us? Did the demise of Adire Audio factor into your decision? Have you seen the RAW SDX7 diver CSS is suggesting as a replacement for the Extremis 6.8? Any thoughts? |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1210 Registered: Dec-03 | I built some sealed two-way designs for a couple of local guys. Built a pair of ported two-ways for a retired professor in Sugar Land, TX. Been selling kits for my Aria and Rosa LCR designs to people in Australia and Canada. Dan closing Adire did have some impact on my decision but the biggest factor was whether to retire early or make a major investment of time and money. I chose the former. I have a pair of SDX7 that I need to measure and then put into an enclosure. I have an idea to use the FR125S on an open baffle with the SDX7 providing the bottom end. My initial impression is the SDX7 looks like a quality piece. Based on my familiarity with the materials chosen and the motor design I expect it to perform well. The Nomex cone will likely prevent it from playing mid-range like the Extremis but I wouldn't want to use it for mids anyway. I'm thinking the sub-1000 Hz performance should be exceptional. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 1556 Registered: Oct-04 | Sounds like good stuff. I can't say I know much about Nomex other than it's fire-retardant. Have you come across any suitable substitute drivers to replace the Extremis then, or not yet? I'm sure you've seen this http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=137 , AV123 is going to be using this driver (or a close facsimile) in there new line of X-Series speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9315 Registered: Dec-04 | Timmer, good to see you again! |
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Gold Member Username: Timn8terSeattle, WA USA Post Number: 1211 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks Nuck. I haven't really been looking for a substitute for the Extremis. The only real replacement would be if someone had some made to the original specs. I prefer to judge each driver on it's own merits and design accordingly. One surprise I did happen on is the Fostex FW137. Excellent mids and a surprising low end even though it has a a short Xmax, only 1mm. It just needs the right enclosure. GR makes high value products and incorporating the XBL^2 motor into their 137 looks great, though I can't say I've worked with it. Just a thought about the OP's question. For a space that size I'd think about some type of mini-line array. They tend to project better into a large space due to the side cancellation and lower SPL drop-off in the Fraunhofer field. |
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