Speedbox for Xpression 11
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1658 Registered: Nov-05 | Okay, I'm at the point where I'm getting to the limit of Mrs Rantz's patience as far as audio spending goes. So, the big question is: will it be worth her berating me [grin] if I buy a Project speed box for $159AU? For those who have got or had one, what will it do for my T/T? Yes, I've read reports, but I'd like to hear it from those here who would never, ever let me spend unnecessarilly LOL! Thanks |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5543 Registered: Feb-05 | The Speedbox takes that table to the next level by stabilizing speed, bass is tighter and better defined and you get better dynamics. It's a good upgrade. Don' stop there, you're only a Herbie's mat away from nirvana...lol! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11667 Registered: May-04 | . Motor controller's are almost always worth the money. That is, of course, depending on how much money is involved. If you're not listening for what the controller improves, then you've wasted your money. But you should hear the benefits of correct speed and more stable speed with a motor controller in place. Stand alone motors also make similar but typically larger improvements. There will be a deeper silence to the background noise of the table. It will not eliminate pops and snaps, that's a different function of the table. Groove noise will be lowered due to less random motion in the platter. If the music you listen to doesn't rely on silence, this may escape your notice. The stop/start thing should improve and bass will improve as a natural result of more consistent speed. Timing of the players will come closer to real. A bit more tapping of the toe. Other improvements come with speed stability too. None of these benefits are knock you down and make you pay attention as you might find with a new amplifier unless your AC is very nasty, in which case, you should be dealing with that overall problem. Start with a solo piano holding a chord. If you hear the notes wavering, there are improvements to be had. If you hear a stable sound on the piano sustain, there are still improvements to be made but they will be more subtle in nature. The noticeable improvements of a controller are the result of a motor that moves with less vibration in the whole unit which, through the belt's filtering action, moves the platter less by no more than a few microns. The motor moves more smoothly as the cogging of the motor is smoothed which in turn makes it more consistent in its rotation and less affected by stylus drag. Consider the many things that can make the record/stylus less consistent in its movement before you decide to buy a motor controller. But the improvements of a controller are very real when you consider the amount of movement in the stylus relative to the groove. If you're not paying attention to these qualities though, you'll find a motor controller is a "Huh?" kind of improvement. And there are usually more dramatic improvements to be had elsewhere if you're looking for dramatic differences over subtle improvements. Mats make larger "differences" as a rule. Where you begin the upgrade path on a table is up to you. I don't know the Herbie's mat. There are plenty to choose from and each table/system will prefer one mat over the other. I would advise against Sorbothane as it tends to deaden the sound. The Ringmat does a good job in most systems. And a very good record clamp will make more improvement than either the motor controller or a mat though it's benefits are even more subtle than the controller in most systems. But, if the record isn't flat, you'll hear the effects of the warp frequency without fail. Just watch your woofers when you play LP's. You won't know what you are hearing until it's not there. I would suggest a suspension system also. The type MW and I use is quite effective and quite cheap but not all that attractive as it comes from the "factory". If you're playing rock or anything at above a whisper level with a non-suspended table, it is a must IMO. I would actually begin with a suspension since it will remove the largest amounts of random motion in a non-suspended table. I think MW decribed it in another thread. It all comes from the sporting goods, plumbing and lumber departments. All total it should run less than $20. Rantz, have you admitted your addiction? . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2229 Registered: May-05 | Rantz, Jan described it better than I can. Better PRaT, cleaner sound, better focus, and darker backgrounds. The most immediate difference to me was the bass seemed rolled off at first. After a few minutes, I realized it was deeper and tighter. The change in bass was actually cutting the flabbiness. Without the Speed Box, the Xpression is a decent table. With it, its a phenominal table IMO. By far the best $120 'tweak' I've made. Herbie's Way Excellent Turntable Mat is a great improvement as well. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1659 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks Art! A mat is definitely for another time. See below. Rantz, have you admitted your addiction? LOL! Thanks Jan for all that info. I rang the on-line dealer and he's promised my money back if I'm not satisfied with the benefits of the speed box. He described just what you two have as well as the benefits of a mat, especially the one shown in the link below. I should have the speed box today if his service is as good as when I bought the brushes. http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/prod238.htm A mat (especially the one shown) would be very hard to explain after a speedbox. Maybe thin cork matting from the hardware store, but almost $300 - she'd really think I've flipped. If I haven't already. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1660 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks also Stu. I shall report once tried. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2230 Registered: May-05 | $300 for a turntable mat? Wat too much IMO. This is the one I use, and Art uses/used - |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1661 Registered: Nov-05 | That's more like it Stu. But one thing at a time for now (if I know what's good for me). I would suggest a suspension system also. Would that really apply to an Xpression 2 as the three specially designed feet seem to act as a sort of suspension in themselves? Nudging the plinth creates a 'floating' type movement. I discovered the rear foot needs to be unscrewed a little to keep the deck level - Stu and Art, did you find the same with yours? I think the weight at the rear of the deck on only one foot causes this. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2231 Registered: May-05 | We have/had the 1Xpression, which has different feet and captive interconnects. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11675 Registered: May-04 | . "Would that really apply to an Xpression 2 as the three specially designed feet seem to act as a sort of suspension in themselves? Nudging the plinth creates a 'floating' type movement." It will cost you about $20 USD to find out. Ask MW who placed this suspension beneath his Linn LP12. You cannot, at this time,find much more of a suspended subchassis table than a LP12. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11676 Registered: May-04 | . When shopping for a mat, remember you must maintain the same relative geometry of the orignal mat/tonearm height. If you change this relationship, the sound can begin to change with the altered VTA of the stylus. This might actually improve your sound quality or it might not but there are better ways to alter VTA than with the relative unknown of a mat. Try a few stick on cork discs the same thickness as your current mat scattered about on the platter in a pattern that might slightly resemble an undulating snake. Remember to not place anything at the label or the edge of the LP's contact area. Or the no slip rubber mats used under cutting boards and carpets can make an effective change. You'll find out that most anything you place between the platter and the LP will affect the sound in some way. The one statement I've read from the Boston mat is the idea that less than computer designed mats will cause the vinyl resonance to "release into the air". OK, what's a better insulator than air? Only a vacuum as far as I know. . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1662 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks for that Jan. I've no intention of getting that Boston mat - not at that price. I'll see if I can find the info on MW's suspension. The sound now is quite good, however there is a very slight rumble/hum that gets a little louder with volume, but only really evident in quite intervals. I heard the speed box aleviates this, though perhaps more suspension and or a mat might help. |
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Silver Member Username: Malco49Baltimore, Maryland Usa Post Number: 130 Registered: May-05 | speed box ll from pro-ject-as soon as i played my debut lll TT i noticed an immediate difference for the better.most clearly the bass was fuller and the sound overall more balanced.the music sounded "more alive,and real.i realize that aint tech talk but it was $120 well spent and i recommend it highly. i was turned off from mats due to price and concerns over how it might affect the cartridge and tonearm alignment.along with the speed box a record clamp( i have a michell version which cost around $50).it just seemed to make sense that having some records clamped to the TT would make a difference. these two additions,i think,will improve your listening experience. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11680 Registered: May-04 | . Here's an editted bit from the note I included with my HW19 when I sent it off to Nuck. The HW19 sounds best when it is well isolated from external feedback. There are several ways to go about isolation. A massive and highly rigid stand is one option though this sort of stand is usually rather expensive and not always accepted into a domestic setting. As you might remember, I've got my table located on top of a large Boos Block butcher's block with ten inches of end cut maple (over 200 lbs.) under the table. The legs are then spiked to the floor. Dedicated turntable stands are available from companies such as Sound Anchor. Lead is a very effective isolation device and I've done very well with the HW19's TipToes sitting on five lb. diver's weights. My first stand for the table included six inches of MDF panels (with rubber damping sheets [the type used under kitchen cutting boards] between each panel) sitting on spikes on top of a spiked concrete filled stand. The diver's weights (with small ball bearings glued to their bottom) sat on top of the MDF and the VPI sat on the diver's weights. There was quite a bit more to the stand than just this but that was the basic shelf under the table. It was very heavy, very dense and very rigid with each layer decoupled from the one beneath and above. You can create a very simple air type suspension with a few parts from the hardware and sporting goods stores. What I'm using under my Scout and what I've suggested to Mike is a set of tennis or squash/racquetballs under two or three MDF panels. (The type of balls you choose do sound different from one another.) Allow one ball for each ten lbs. of total suspended weight. Adding or removing a ball from this ideal weight combination will slightly affect the sound. The "perfect" set up gives the shelf only vertical motion when you push down on the table. You can buy the balls in mesh bags which will keep them in place if you want to try the simplest application of this suspension. If this shows promise, you can head to the plumbing department of the hardware store to improve on this basic suspension. Buy enough 2" Kwikcaps to go under each ball. Kwikcaps are black Neoprene caps with a slight depression in their top piece. Place a ball in the depression of the Kwikcap with the flat edge of the cap sitting on the base shelf. The MDF panels will sit on top of the balls. I would rather have the HW19 suspended in this fashion than I would care to rely on the springs under the sub-chassis. As an additional note to MDF panels, VPI and several other companies bind their multiple layers of plinth material together on tables such as the Scoutmaster and the TNT with GE silicone sealant. The thin layer of silicone provides one more layer of damping to the mix. I have found the thin rubber non-slip mats do just as well and can easily be placed and removed to "tune" the suspension. . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1663 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks mwf. And thanks again Jan for more very informative advice. I was going to send an email off to Mike tonight and now you have saved me the trouble. It's funny, I was thinking a platform of sorts on squash balls myself earlier. I was also thinking a sheet of bubble wrap. Experimenting may be a little fun - and so may watching the expressions on my wife's face. I got the speed box this morning (great service from this guy - he does have a good rep) and while it did not make an earth shattering difference, it did tighten things up a little in the low frequencies and may have increased fine detail a little. But it made the music move along a bit more smoothly I feel. However, there is still a tad of rumble/hum noise in the breaks, better but not gone. I guess the suspension/isolation may help with this though it really isn't a problem. It looks like my dealer may upgrade my cart as I have seen prices for the 2m Red and they didn't correlate to the deal he offered me. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9074 Registered: Dec-04 | Oh yeah...my wife is just going to LOVE this, hehehe.  |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11682 Registered: May-04 | . Nuck - She gets to use her power tools. What's her beef? Rantz - Rumble and hum are two distinct problems and a suspension is unlikely to solve either. The suspension I described will deal with acoustic and mechanical feedback. Have you discussed this rumble/hum issue with your dealer? Have you tried moving the table to minimize any hum pickup? Are you certain the main bearing is properly lubricated in order to deal with rumble issues? Is there more to the table than just dropping the main bearing shaft into the bearing well? Say, a small ball bearing that must be fitted to the bottom of the sleeve to minimize friction between the shaft and the thrust plate? . . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1664 Registered: Nov-05 | Jan, the rumble/hum is very slight and only becomes evident when played loud. It's not what I call a problem, just something I feel should not be there. Should there be dead silence between tracks? It's not there with the arm lifted. I don't know if what you suggest applies to this table but I shall have a word to the dealer. The table is earthed to the amp. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11684 Registered: May-04 | . Rumble is rather low pitched and sounds just like "rumble". It's a mechanical noise that is similar to a bearing not riding correctly in its well. If you can change the speed of the table between 33 & 45, the sound of rumble changes with the speed. Hum is obviously electrical in nature and doesn't change with speed. It can be caused by an assortment of problems but is typically related to grounding problems. Try attaching the grounding lug to various parts of your pre amp, lifting the third pin ground on a three conductor AC plug or reversing the polarity (turning the plug around) on a two pin plug. Having the table too close to the power amp or a TV can cause hum problems also. Some cartridges have a grounding strap that connects to the body of the cartridge and a ground pin on the back of the cartridge. It can be removed to eliminate hum. . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1665 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks Jan. Funny, I changed the speedbox to 45 and the noise disappeared. Back to 33 and it was back again. I'll see what I can do with a bit of experimenting, but changing t/t locations away from the other gear is out of the equation at present. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9076 Registered: Dec-04 | MR, would the same noise come/go with the tables speed selector, sans speedbox? Too late to try? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1666 Registered: Nov-05 | I'll disconnect the speedbox and try changing the pulley later today Nuck. Good idea, but I don't think that will make any difference. It's really not a biggie though as I seldom play records loud enough for it to interfere with the music. Then again, a dead silent background would be benefical I guess. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11686 Registered: May-04 | . I don't know the table well enough to make anything more than a guess at this point. The Speedbox is, as I understand it, reshaping the AC wave that comes into the table's motor to affect the speed change without moving the belt on the pulley. This would make you think the problem is electrical in nature. Try changing how you have things plugged in to the AC outlet. Reverse the plugs or change the position of plugs on a strip or conditioner. Lift a ground if need be. Simply moving the table temporarily will help in the diagnosis even if the table must reurn to the same location. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9080 Registered: Dec-04 | Or, MR, in the same location, place the table on some wooden blocks, across each corner at a 45, to lift the table. Any wood block will do. This leads into the whole isolation thing, but a very simple check. I am following your lead on the new vinyl thing, Rantz, with great interest. A 2 prong extension cord(lift ground) would be a quick check as well. I do wonder about the speed change... |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1667 Registered: Nov-05 | I put the table on a thick timber slab today. It made no diference with the rumble. I tried it first with a sheet of bubble wrap beneath it but it made the bass sound a bit flabby. But I will try what you say although the feet are a special floating design which must have been included for a isolation reason. But stranger things etc . . . Apart from all that - it does sound very good with decent condition albums. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9084 Registered: Dec-04 | It's the vinyl thing, MR. Have fun, if it doesn't drive Mrs. Rantz to fits. Oh, and do up the dishes, hehe. I recommend The Travelling Wilbury's on vinyl. Fantastic album! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1668 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks Jan, I missed your last post. Yes I'll try that today also. With or without the speedbox, the power connection is a 16V transformer which is maybe why the noise can be evident regardless. Thanks a lot guys I'll report back once I've tried things you've suggest. Nuck, am I glad I got a turnatable? LOL! I recently got the Wilbery's on cd, but I picked a few more albums yesterday including one of the big O's. I'll post in the music selections thread later. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1671 Registered: Nov-05 | Okay, I moved the table off the rack - no difference. Next I used an extension lead to an outlet in another room - no difference. Then I unplugged the speedbox and plugged the 16v lead directly to the T/T - still the noise persisted. I then manually changed the speed to 45 and yes, unlike with the speedbox the noise persisted. So the only difference was no noise on 45 with the speedbox and noise on both speeds without. I did take the earth off the connection to the amp and touched a couple of other spots, but still no difference. I haven't got a 2 prong lead to try at present. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5554 Registered: Feb-05 | So the turntable is not near the amplifier? When I had my ProJect near the amp it hummed pretty good, quit altogether when I moved it. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1673 Registered: Nov-05 | Art, when I moved the t/t is was still within a few feet of the amp because of the interconnects. I'm trying a few more things this afternoon to try and remedy this - I've already done a couple of things for a bit better and a bit worse. The amp is sitting 3 shelves below the T/T btw. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1675 Registered: Nov-05 | I've tried 2 slabs of timber (thick cutting boards) with different dampening materials between them or none at all and nothing makes much difference. I've even changed the earth with bare wire connections and interconnects from the stock ones. Lastly, I cut out a section on a single cutting board to inset the speedbox (more for neatness sake) and screwed rubber feet to the underside where it sits on the top glass shelf of the rack. As I tap each layer, the glass shelf is only very, very slightly microphonic (sound coming through the speakers with stylus sitting on record), the timber slab a bit more noisy and the plinth seems quite microphonic. Is this normal anyone? Anyway, I think you are right Art about proximity to the amp or other components, but the set up now is about the best I can do within exceptable limits for the WAF. Jan, I may try your other suggestions in time (so wife doesn't send me to the funny farm) but I have a strange feeling they may not solve the slight rumble issue. See the pics thread for setup. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11697 Registered: May-04 | . If the noise disappears when you switch speeds at the motor controller, I don't believe you have a "rumble" issue. The problem would appear to be electrical. Tapping closer to the stylus with your present arrangement will make for louder signals at the stylus, so what you described is correct though not always desireable. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11698 Registered: May-04 | . I should clarify what I just posted. Tapping a solid plinth table anywhere will produce a signal at the stylus when the arm is in the play position on a disc. Only when you are using a suspended sub-chassis table would this not be true. A suspended sub-chassis table such as the Linn LP12 is taken from the classic example of such a design, the original AR turntable. The arm and platter are connected together to maintain stylus geometry. This is typically done by joining the two components together on a "T" shaped sub-chassis. The sub-chassis is then suspended by way of springs or another form of elastomer. The sub-chasis is what makes this sort of table unique compared to a suspended plinth design such as my old VPI HW19 which sat the entire plinth on the suspension system. Both systems isolate the arm/platter system from the motor which sits on the base or main chassis. Tables such as the Rega and its variants are considered non-suspended tables and they rely on the feet of the table to provide whatever isolation from external forces is possible. Siting such a table is more critical since the isolation provided by the feet will be minor compared to a suspended table. Non-suspended tables such as the Rega also tend to have little isolation from motor vibration since the motor is often loosely attached to the chassis along with the arm and platter/bearing assembly. More expensive designs will incorporate a stand alone motor meant to remove the motor vibration from the main chassis of the table and sink this movement into a well designed support shelf. Tapping on the support shelf or plinth of a non-suspended table will cause large signals at the stylus when it is in its play position. The same is true when tapping the plinth of a table such as the VPI HW19 where the arm/platter are part of the main plinth. You shouldn't hear anything with this table, however, if you rap on the support shelf. A selling technique of the original AR table (and copied by Linn) was to rap on the plinth with a hammer while playing a record. The suspended sub-chassis isolated the stylus from shock. The trend today is away from the suspended sub-chassis tables - Linn is the only high end design that still employs this style of design to my knowledge - and toward tables with higher rigidity overall. This places more emphasis on a top notch support system as any signal reaching the support shelf will be transmitted to the stylus. . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1678 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanx Jan. Maybe it's not a rumble and more of a hum, seeing as it's a constant tone. I tried to find a 2 prong lead to try, but it doesn't seem one is available here unless it's made up. One thing I haven't yet tried is disconnecting the other components including the television to see if that makes any difference. Although it's no great problem but I'd like to beat it if for no reason other than curiosity. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1683 Registered: Nov-05 | (Edited) Jan, using the speedbox means the motor revs at different speeds depending on platter speed selection (as the same belt pulley is used - the small one) whereas without it the motor keeps the same revs regardless of changing the belt pulley. So the noise is only evident when the motor runs at the normal speed or when 33rpm is selected with the speedbox. This would indicate that interfence of some type is not the culprit would it not? As the noise is a constant pitch (without the speedbox) regardless of the pulley selected, this would also rule out the bearing, I think you indicated this earlier. So the noise is evident only when the motor is at normal revs and not at a higher speed when the speedbox is used for 45rpm. I tried turning off all other components except the T/T and amp, but nothing changed. So has something been narrowed down here? Could it still be anything other than a faulty motor maybe - like it's causing some vibration at normal speed and not at the faster one? I hope I'm explaining my drift here. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9109 Registered: Dec-04 | So the noise would be coming from the motor only at the set speed where it has run all it's life, as the speedbox 45 is the only setting where the speed of the motor is changed. Brilliant, Holmes! Now is it mechanically harmonic or electrically based? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1684 Registered: Nov-05 | Exactly Watson! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11701 Registered: May-04 | . You've narrowed down that the noise doesn't change with a constant motor speed, i.e. moving the belt to the 45 R.P.M. pulley. That would indicate to me, from what I'm reading, the noise is not a bearing problem. If it were the bearing in this case, the noise would remain but would change its nature - literally sounding faster and higher pitched. I'm not sure what the Speedbox does to affect a change in motor speed but I suspect it changes the apparent c.p.s. of the AC line. A synchronous motor, which I believe is on this table, manages speed by synchronizing with the oscillation of the incoming AC line frequency, either 50 or 60 Hz. At the correct 50/60 Hz oscillation the motor runs at a certain speed. Change the number of cycles per second in the incoming AC line and the motor moves with the change in frequency. This is what appears to remove the noise from the motor. Is it that the noise is removed by something extraneous to the AC line frequency, or is frequency to the table and another component, such as the amplifier, no longer in synch? Find that, I would say, and you'll have your answer. How to find it? I haven't a clue at this point since I don't know this motor controller at all. My guess would be one of two possibilities. 1) the table needs to be moved away from an offending source of interference. Most components have trickle voltage through their power supply even when they are "off". This could be the problem. Unplug all but the amp and table and check for any changes. The table and amplifier should be plugged into the same outlet with no intervening AC strips or conditioners. At three shelves away from each other, the amp is probably not be the problem but if you can swap out to another amp, you might learn something about the MF amplifier. Otherwise, try moving the table as far to the side opposite the MF's power transformer as the cables will allow. If the amp is the problem, there's a good chance moving the table closer to the amp will make an audible difference. The other item I might suspect is the AC line running to the motor. There is probably a small capacitor in line before the motor to smooth the incoming AC. There's the possibility of a bad cap but more likely I would guess at a bad solder connection. Or a connection that should be shielded but isn't. I don't remember if you said the noise is present even when the arm is not in the play position. There's a possibility the bad connection is in the solder joints or plug in spots of the tonearm but I'm not big on that idea. At this point, you've gathered enough information that your dealer should be able to help if this is a common problem with either the table or the amplifier. Have you called to ask? . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1685 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks Jan, I will talk to the dealer, however, I don't think he's an expert in such matters. But I shall see. And there is no noise at all until stylus touches vinyl. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11702 Registered: May-04 | . If he's a good dealer, he should have the resources to help you track down this problem through his network of factory reps and manufacturers. The Ortofon is a new model and possibly they are sorting out problem with this cartridge. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11703 Registered: May-04 | . "And there is no noise at all until stylus touches vinyl." What happens if the stylus is resting on the LP and you switch off the motor? Does the noise sound as if it is running down with the motor? What happens if you unplug the motor with the stylus in playing position? Switch speed through the Speedbox? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1687 Registered: Nov-05 | There is no noise until the stylus is actually in the groove. For example after the last track where the space between the groove widens, when setting down the stylus, it is quiet until it goes in the groove. And that ain't groovy man! I saw my dealer this morning and told him everything I had done and he asked if I had moved my speaker away from the T/T - nope about the only thing I hadn't tried and when I did - nothing changed. If the stylus is resting without the motor going - no noise. While the stylus is tracking and I turn off the motor, the noise stops at once. With the stylus resting on the record and I turn on the motor, the noise starts at once even before it reaches the 33rpm which only takes a second or a bit more. My dealer is upgrading my stylus to a 2M Bronze as he had made an error in the value of the red with the deal he gave me. As soon as it arrives and I change it I shall see if the noise persists. If so, then we have a problem Houston - er I mean Dallas. I can't think of anything else to try until then (but I'm all ears) even moving the T/T further away from the amp from what I tried is not possible with the cables I have. Unfortunately my NAD is away getting a switch fixed or I'd try it with that. Maybe it will be back soon. I know I'm making this more a problem then I should, but I like things to work right - especially when that's what I pay for. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11704 Registered: May-04 | . Does the dealer have another table you can try for a night? Or can you bring your table to him for comparison in another system? The last thing I can think to try is removing the belt from the pulley and switching the motor on. If the noise is present when the stylus is in place but the platter isn't spinning, the problem is obviously electrical in nature. If the noise is consistent in level from the leading edge of the disc through to the lead out groove, I would guess the motor or its capacitor (or other component that might be unique to this table) is at fault - or the solder connections as I've suggested above. If the noise rises in level as the arm approaches the motor, the problem is likely in the cartridge. I've never known an Ortofon to have noise issues with motors however. Otherwise, about the best I can offer is to wait for the new cartridge and hope it solves the problem. I would hope your dealer is being somewhat aggressive about helping you solve this issue. He should be calling a rep to ask questions. You might want to egg him on about doing so or ask for phone numbers to do so yourself. Possibly suggesting you'd like to call the manufacturers would get some action out of your dealer. Or, maybe not. He might be glad to have the problem out of his hair. . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1689 Registered: Nov-05 | I'm sure he will help solve the problem once we have discounted the existing cartridge. The noise will not appear unless the groove is actually moving across the stylus. It's not even evident when the stylus is moving across a non groove section until it "clicks" into the groove. I turned the motor off and manually turned the platter - no noise, but I don't know the rpm doing that. He doesn't have another Xpression at present only a Debut 3. They were the only two he carries. Other dealers locally carry only Debut3's bar one who has one budget Rega . Vinyl is not yet big here again as you can guess by that. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11705 Registered: May-04 | . "The noise will not appear unless the groove is actually moving across the stylus. It's not even evident when the stylus is moving across a non groove section until it "clicks" into the groove." ? So, if you place the stylus on the blank, uncut portion of the disc at the lead out groove, the noise won't appear until the stylus gets caught by the groove? Are we talking just plain ol' groove noise? Some cartridges are more susceptible to this noise. Is this a constant noise when playing a disc that changes quality and amount with various records? Some discs are better than others in this regard and groove noise varies as you go from one LP to the next. . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1690 Registered: Nov-05 | That's right, it's only when the stylus is actually in the groove. But, no I really don't think this is "groove noise" as it seems constant no matter what record or condition. It does the same with a well used album as it does with a brand new one. I may get a pair of alligator clips and test the wiring as described here: http://www.kabusa.com/setup.htm) |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1691 Registered: Nov-05 | And it's more a hum than a shhhhhhhpopshhhhhhcrackshhhhhhclickshhhhhhhit. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5565 Registered: Feb-05 | Wait a second I think there was a complaint about this noise from a reviewer relative the the cartridge. I believe they did call it groove noise. I'll see if I can find that article this weekend. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1692 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks Art. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9115 Registered: Dec-04 | shhhhhhhpopshhhhhhcrackshhhhhhclickshhhhhhhit. I think I saw that in a Dr. Seuss table troubleshooter guide. Lemme look... |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1693 Registered: Nov-05 | I had a feeling you still read Dr Seuss Nuck. lol! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5569 Registered: Feb-05 | I think you're developmentally disabled Nuck.... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5571 Registered: Feb-05 | and having too good a time......lol! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9118 Registered: Dec-04 |  |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1708 Registered: Nov-05 | I still have not received my replacement cart, but I hooked up the T/T to my NAD C162 and used the pre-outs to the A5. The 'hum' condition still exists. So I wait. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1710 Registered: Nov-05 | I got the new cart. I knew my dealer had made an error when he said he'd ordered the bronze 2M. I got a Blue 2M, but I'm not complaining, it sounds even better than the red - considerably - more dynamic, clean, and spacious. But the cart did not fix the hum problem. A brand new Xpression 11 however did fix the problem. Yippie kai yay! Maybe it won't take too much of a better table to beat the CD5i after all - this sounds just great. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1711 Registered: Nov-05 | Also the dealer I purchased the Xpression from is a man of his word. Great dealer - I didn't even have to ask for a new table. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11734 Registered: May-04 | . Sounds like you should both keep on keeping the other happy for a long time now. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1713 Registered: Nov-05 | Anyway, I appreciate all the advice. Even though the problem was a faulty t/t at least I learnt a few things. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9203 Registered: Dec-04 | me too! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5618 Registered: Feb-05 | Excellent interaction with your dealer. I'm glad you got it worked out and are experiencing the joy that comes with playing vinyl!!! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1714 Registered: Nov-05 | Well I am now Art! LOL! I must say that I've been spoilt by cd's etc, as you can skip, repeat, program etc without leaving the chair, though there is a certain emotional thing happening playing lp's. More about the 2m Blue cart - I may have overstated its virtues a little as I have to admit I have not heard the 2m Red on the new t/t, so the noise may have gotten in the way a bit even though it was not really audible until the quiet spaces. But I do believe the Blue is definitely an improvement all the same. The table is making some very good music and I have ordered a clamp which I think has finished my spending on hardware for quite some time. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2515 Registered: Sep-04 | Once run in the Blue ought to make the Red sound like the scrappy alternative... As with all ortofons, the Blue takes a while to run in - say about 100 hours. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1715 Registered: Nov-05 | Frank. I listened to a fair selection of vinyl yesterday and I really think the Blue is a real improvement. So I'm pleased it can only get better. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11739 Registered: May-04 | . Has anyone marketed a high end stop watch to time break in periods? It should have a count down and a count up. One so you can tell when you're getting near the predicted magic event and one to tell just how long before things are broken in. One digital and one analog. With a 3/4" thick faceplate of brushed aluminum in a modest gold tone. I'm undecided on a replaceable power cable. If you replaced the power cable, you would have to break it in which could get rather odd. If it kept time correctly, wouldn't that indicate the power cable is broken in? If it didn't keep time correctly until the cable was broken in, how could you tell how long that took? You could have the extra cost option of running off a SLA battery. Spikes, though, definitely spikes. Unless you need Sorbothane. . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1720 Registered: Nov-05 | By George I think Jan is having a go at someone. However, I do believe the magical word was 'about' and a watch would only measure an absolute. Would it not? Also, it has taken me over 50 yrs plus to run in - right when I'm just about run down. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11741 Registered: May-04 | . No one in particular. The hobby does seemed obssessed with things running in. If you can sell a $400 stylus alignment guage, a $300 stylus pressure guage and a specialized wrench just to tighten binding posts there is a market for things we have yet to imagine. |
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New member Username: Zoney99Post Number: 9 Registered: Nov-07 | Yeah there is certainly a market for everything. As in "there's one born every minute!" So I spend $700 for a turntable but wait......I find out it is assembled with a twenty five cent 3-pole Chinese motor in it with a wow and flutter of 8.5 instead of .03 it should have!!!!!! I neeeeeed a Speedbox! It will open up the entire soundstage, bass is deeper, treble is more pronounced, mid range is sweeet. Oh by the way, check out Parts Express - they have a Watt Gate $142 "audio grade" receptacle to plug it into!!!! OMIGOD, give me a break, a small little break. Here's a deal for the Speedbox guy: buy a speedbox and you get a free green pen to mark your cds with!! NOW THAT SHOULD SELL LIKE HOTCAKES!! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1722 Registered: Nov-05 | Okay have a break. As in "there's one born every minute!" Yeah, and unfortunately you were one of them. |
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New member Username: Zoney99Post Number: 10 Registered: Nov-07 | Wait a minute! "Yes, I've read reports, but I'd like to hear it from those here who would never, ever let me spend unnecessarilly LOL!" You did hear it - and you didn't like it! I apologize I did not make the point more elegantly. What is it that you drink down under that cheers you up? Have one or two and be happy you can afford to consider such a device! } |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9229 Registered: Dec-04 | Geez, John...it could be the seperation of power supply and motor drive, just like vpi does with the enviable Scoutmaster. Or maybe every single master table maker in the world. It could also be the control over incoming voltage and frequency that a stand alone power supply offers, again, just like major table makers offer and recommend. Also like most quality makers offer for cd players and such. If you can't get your head around high quality offerings, maybe you should shop Toyota, and wonder where the great reviews likened to Lexus are missing in your ride. Oh yeah, they are at Lexus. Dude, pull your head oughta your socks and don't start as a knownothing. A great motor is nothing without great control. Synchronous motors notch at 60 Hz, steppers notch at 128 cycles, servos no not notch, but are greatly affected by environment, and affect the environment in pace. El cheapo universal motors run at a steady speed, but without torque (that makes the thing go around, BTW). So universal motors with a speed control, sometimes including start caps, are the normal option. If you have any options at the moment to offer, please do so. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5638 Registered: Feb-05 | John, the speedbox for the ProJect table is inexpensive...I know I used to own one, you can have a go at me if you like I spent several times that on my separate power supply for a Rega P5...Oh and it made a wonderful difference. And yes I feel blessed to be able to buy one, but not apologetic. My advice is that if you don't want to buy any of these devices...don't, we certainly won't care. Now with my blessing you may return to wherever it is that trolls come from. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2249 Registered: May-05 | Seperate power supplies don't just benefit turntables. Ever hear a Naim system with and without a seperate power supply in the chain? Ever wonder why higher end companies make two chassis components, especially with pre-amps? Wiley, is it you again? The language doesn't sound like you, but the tone is familiar. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11754 Registered: May-04 | . Geez, JG, with those responses to post #9 & 10, post #11 should be a doozey! Stick around. Things get better. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9240 Registered: Dec-04 | Pile on the Rabbit! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5639 Registered: Feb-05 | I'm sorry if I was a bit rude. It really gets me when folks come here and without getting to know anyone just start in on the attack. To know MR and Stu at all is to know that they don't make these purchases without consideration. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1726 Registered: Nov-05 | Thanks Art. In fact, I made a call to the owner of the business who sold me the speedbox. Turnatables is his specialty and, on the main, there's a lot in hi-fi tweakery he doesn't believe in and he's been a long time in the industry and is very well respected. He was very helpful and told me of the speedbox's benefits as others here did and also offered my money back for any reason if I wasn't satisfied. For the Xpression he highly recommended the product. I beleive the music benefits from the purchase so it stays. And JG if I came across as a bit rude to you - I meant it. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11759 Registered: May-04 | . ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Bronze Member Username: Zoney99Post Number: 11 Registered: Nov-07 | Wow this fun! I'm getting to know you guys and.....................I LIKE YALL!!!! Having a little bit of a temperment, fire and spirit is good for the soul. Oh, the name calling doesn't bother me a bit, nor does the rudeness so no need to apologize. Please, how about some reviews of of the Speedbox from actual consumers - not from dealers, resellers, manufacturer's friends, or someone who got one for free to "test." And if improving the power supply by 2% or 5% results in "unsurpassed highs, bottomless lows" etc, please be prepared for a little healthy skepticism! |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5644 Registered: Feb-05 | How about you go out and do some listening for yourself John. I'm not sure why you expect folks to justify their purchases for you when you aren't even polite to them. Perhaps if you take your unsurpassed bottom end out to do some listening you can come back with your own conclusions. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1727 Registered: Nov-05 | We haven't resorted to name calling JG - yet! Only giving back to you in kind. From Six Moons http://6moons.com/audioreviews/project/project_2.html It took me nearly three months before I experimented with the Speed Box to discern what effect, if any, it might have on playback. Truth be told, I really wasn't expecting much from this teeny weeny box and suspected I would not notice anything at all. Aye Caramaba! The wee Speed Box was a minor revelation. By removing the Speed Box and connecting the power supply directly to the 1 Xpression, the bass lost a significant degree of extension and fluidity. The mids and highs were slightly smeared and soundstage depth became shallower. Popping the Speed Box back into the chain made dynamics more incisive while the bass got back its extension and drive and the highs and mids smoothed out to become more defined and resolved. The sense of natural flow and drive simply increased. Could my AC suffer such voltage fluctuations as to cause such an effect simply on the motor that drives the platter? Even with a couple of thousand dollars of fancy power cables and AC conditioning, the Speed Box had a huge impact on playback. I guess the next time I spot ads for multi-buck turntable speed controllers, I won't react with a snide snicker anymore. Good grief, what more could the more expensive Speed Box SE possibly add? also - by JG: how about some reviews of of the Speedbox from actual consumers? Well, what are we if not consumers? Friggin' martians? |
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