Need some advice on speaker-amp pairing.
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 968 Registered: Nov-06 | As most of you remembered from my rant about my maggies not interacting properly with my new apartment, I have decided to put my beloved MMGs back in the box, and store them for future use. The dipolar nature of the speakers is not conducive for excellent sound where I need to place them. I'd be tripping on the stands late at night otherwise. I am debating on going back to Klipsch Reference, as I have always been fond of the sound. They have the speed and transparency that I came to admire from my maggies. For my question... I currently have an all rotel based system to run my maggies with. It runs a little hotter in the treble than I would like, paired up with the Klipsch RB-81 and RB-61, the two models that I am considering, unless I can find a great condition pair of RB-5II (had them and loved them). Driven with a Pioneer Elite intergrated, the 81 and 61 sounded rich and smooth, the nod going to the 61 for better integration IMHO. What I want to avoid is making a backstep in my components if I do decide to do this. Storage will not be an issue if I swap my components out. Not looking for validation, but rather components that mate well with the Klipsch. My dealer rec'd NAD, but that pairing didn't have the rich warmth that the Pioneer Elite pairing did. Any other suggestions, beside NAD and Pioneer Elite? I am looking for a rich, warm, and smooth sound, and will consider integrated amps and combos. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2193 Registered: May-05 | Adcom? B&K? Mac? |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 970 Registered: Nov-06 | mac is another obvious choice... forgot about that one. Not too familiar with Adcom. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2195 Registered: May-05 | I think its not as easy to find as it was before Rotel started making a comeback. I haven't heard it for about 5 years or so, but if I remember correctly its similar to NAD,but a little better sound and build quality. About half way between NAD and B&K. I don't know if they've changed the quality of their 2 channel gear since then. They've gotten into AV receivers that compete price wise with B&K I believe. They had a set of seperates that was designed by Nelson Pass, but I can't remember the model numbers. It was a passive/active pre amp, and a big power amp. They both had a gold plate with a switch on the front. Very good stuff, and can be found second hand. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2196 Registered: May-05 | GFP-750 Pre-amp,and GFA 5802 power amp. There's a few amps and one pre-amp on Audiogon now for about $1K a piece, which seems higher than I've seen them in the past. No idea on your budget and needs, but its Nelson Pass gear on a budget. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11586 Registered: May-04 | . I don't do product recommendations very often. And I'm not going to in this case. But here's my opinion of your post. "A rich, warm, and smooth sound" isn't much to go on, particularly if you're starting with a pair of Klipsch. I'm going to guess most people with some experience in audio would not put Klipsch in the "rich, warm, and smooth" group of speakers. So why start way back in the pack when it is easier to start closer to where you wish to finish? Personally, I find the idea of going from MMG's to Klipsch a bit difficult to imagine. I obviously don't have a clue what you consider good sound or whether you even have a reference for what reproduced sound should accomplish. But, to my ears, Magnepans do one thing and Klispch does something all together different. If you like the cohesion and transparency along with the speed of the dipolar panels, a boxed enclosure with horns is not where I would direct you. Particularly if it then involves changing all your other gear to accommodate what the speakers impose on the system sound. I would liken this to buying some tires you really like and then buying the car they fit on. This is approaching Wiley Coyote planning. There are much better ways to solve your speaker issues. But first you'll have to come up with a more complete reference for what you want to hear than merely "a rich, warm, and smooth sound." . |
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Bronze Member Username: MagfanPost Number: 33 Registered: Oct-07 | the original Adcom 555 200x2 amp was a Pass design. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11590 Registered: May-04 | . And sounded like little else Pass has ever designed. Pass was Threshold at the time and Threshold was pure class A operation. Threshold has as much to do with Adcom as Porsche does with Volkswagen. . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2197 Registered: May-05 | I don't know Pass's history with Adcom and what does and doesn't sound like Pass's signature sound. The only thing in this regard I know is that the pre-amp and amp I listed were designed by Nelson Pass for Adcom. I heard that the 5802 was also sold as a Pass Labs amp, with the only difference being the way the amp was biased. I remember a link to a webpage here by a guy who owns a repair shop stating this and rebiasing the 5802 to get the full potential out of it. But that's neither here nor there. I wasn't trying to make a specific recommendation, but a nudge in a general direction that I think Gavin hadn't considered. I don't think anyone here will doubt that he'll research a bunch of different things and narrow down his choices by hearing them. He's been around here for far too long to need to be told that he needs to audition gear for himself. BTW, the Porsche Cayenne is based on the VW Touareg. They worked together on it. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5497 Registered: Feb-05 | If you don't listen loud (which is hard to do with MMG's anyway) you may want to consider a tube integrated and a fast subwoofer. Magnepan recommends an 8 inch, I know this from many discussions I've had with the folks at Magnepan when I owned them (Maggies not Magnepan...lol). A medium powered tube amp would have enough power to put wind into the sails of the MMG's for high frequencies and mids and the sub can do the low frequency duties. If not tubes then a pre owned Mac SS integrated or receiver again with a fast sub...don't give up on your beloved Maggies just yet. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11595 Registered: May-04 | . "BTW, the Porsche Cayenne is based on the VW Touareg. They worked together on it." And the Porsche 914 used a "VW engine". Adolf did one good thing when he had Dr. P design the bug and another when he (A.H.) had the autobahn designed and built. Too bad he used slave labor (and then killed them) for at least one of those. . |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5499 Registered: Feb-05 | That would probably have been a couple of years before the Touareg/Cayenne. Just my guess. |
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Silver Member Username: JawPost Number: 139 Registered: Mar-06 | No surprise, VW will be Porsche: >As of July 2007, Porsche has borrowed 10 billion euros ($13.6 billion), in an intention to buy Volkswagen, and doesn't seem to be letting up on its acquisition of VW. The Stuttgart car-maker has tapped into a network of 37 lenders for a $13.7 billion loan to finance its purchase of VW shares. The money will go to pay for outstanding Volkswagen shares, since VW shareholders only offered up less than one-percent of their shares when Porsche offered them below-market-value sale prices. Earlier this year it was reported that of Porsche's 1.14 billion euro ($1.55 billion) fiscal profit in the first fiscal half of 2007, more than one billion ($1.36 billion) of it came from VW. In which case it would make sense to many observers that Porsche would do whatever possible to keep the two siblings together. PORSCHE and 914 were wholly mutually exclusive. That car was a VW in all manner, shape and form. As a Porsche, it was crap. FWIW, my first car at the time was a German built '73 Mercury Capri, a wonderfully refined little guy towards the end ,sadly, of the the auspicious US muscle car era. http://halifax.kijiji.ca/c-ViewAdLargeImage?AdId=14532681&img=http://kijiji.ebay img.com/i18/04/k/000/77/60/3726_18.JPG |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 972 Registered: Nov-06 | I know I shouldn't give up on my maggies just yet... but DAMN.. it is pizzing me off trying to place them correctly. I finally understand what all the dipolar owners have complained about. I have also thought about auditioning the MartinLogan Frescos again. Planar magnetic speaker, but not dipolar. The last time I heard them they were not broken in yet, and sounded thin as a result. My options are always open. Very rarely do I get one single idea in my head and run with it without considering other options. FWIW, the frescos use the same style panels as in the Mosaic (except direct radiating vs. dipolar). I liked the mosaic very much the first time I heard it. Had the maggie speed and transparency, but with b@lls. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 973 Registered: Nov-06 | "I wasn't trying to make a specific recommendation, but a nudge in a general direction that I think Gavin hadn't considered." that was actually what I was looking for. TY |
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Bronze Member Username: 007bPost Number: 38 Registered: Oct-07 | GFA-5802 is an exceptional piece of equipment. Pair it with an Adcom or B&K pre-amp and you can't go wrong. |
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Bronze Member Username: MagfanPost Number: 39 Registered: Oct-07 | Maggie placement is critical. I have owned a set for over 20 yrs and have had them in small rooms of 1000ft3 to huge, 2 story lr/dr combos of probably over 6000ft3. Try anything.....keep toe in, though, no matter what. Maggies to NOT like the back wave of being close to a wall or parallel to it. Some toe is necessary. Experiment with distance from wall, 18" to 3ft. I even swapped 'em L/R to straighten out an imaging probem once. When placed as marked, there was an annoying sound image up the the corner of the room! Swapping L/R fixed this. Install a nightlight if you have to! Jan, just noted the Pass connection to the '555 without editorial. They are, however still available on the used market and hold value fairly well.....Adcom also later issued a mkII version. Don't know enough about 'characteristic Pass' sound to make even an unintelligent comment. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11607 Registered: May-04 | . Pass is a very nice man from my limited dealings with him and all that I've heard from others. He is always spoken of as the quintessential curious inventor. (http://www.passdiy.com/) His designs have a signature but the price difference between the budget oriented Adcom amplifier and Pass's own Threshold products of the same time period would suggest the Adcom is not the same amp (minus a thicker face plate) that Pass was selling as his own. Having sold both products, in most systems I would not consider the two amplifiers to be interchangeable no matter how the Adcom is biased. Everyone would like to own that giant killer product that outdoes the expensive gear for minimal dollars. If cranking up the bias on an Adcom does it for you, and the amp survives the additional stress and heat, that's fine. I don't know the particulars of this modification so there's no more I can add other than most Threshold amps were factory built to produce sufficient current capacity to allow arc welding. Is this giving you any ideas, Gavin? A few votes for keeeping the panels and at least one vote for not buying the Klipsch. Still, I think you need to do some thinking before you invest in any new (or pre-owned) gear. . |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 974 Registered: Nov-06 | "Still, I think you need to do some thinking before you invest in any new (or pre-owned) gear." I certainly am. I don't want to have to start off at square one if I can help it. |
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Bronze Member Username: 007bPost Number: 42 Registered: Oct-07 | I have never liked Maggies paired with anything. On the other hand, I listen to much more than classical music where, in my view, they tend to excel. Never thought they sounded realistic on jazz, rock, R&B, etc. But if you like them, it shouldn't really matter what anyone else thinks. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 976 Registered: Nov-06 | Baxter... obviously you didn't read my whole post. I have had maggies for a couple of years, and love the sound. I also listen to just about anything and they have never ceased to amaze me. I'll admit that I wish they were a little more dynamic, but the realism of the sound is impressive, especially for the price. I am also powering them with a small rotel amp...no need to crank them, but I know a larger amp would allow for more of a dynamic swing, even at lower volumes. The reason for my post was because I moved, and am having a terrible time with them in the new room, and was asking for some advice. That's all... |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 977 Registered: Nov-06 | well... I could always replace my Maggies with a Bose Acoustimass system  |
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Bronze Member Username: 007bPost Number: 44 Registered: Oct-07 | Au contrare, I read your post but I still don't like Maggies, even when ideally positioned. But switching to Bose would be worse. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9026 Registered: Dec-04 | Ya think?!? |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 980 Registered: Nov-06 | lol |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 983 Registered: Nov-06 | Believe it or not, the inexpensive Pioneer Elite A-35R is sonically superior to my beloved Rotel RB-950 in my system. It has slightly superior low current drive, and a much smoother, more realistic sound. FYI.. the elite integrated is IMHO superior (and not slightly) to the receiver lineup, as it should be. The caps are quite large, as are the heat sinks (for a moderately powered device). I did not get a good look at the power supply. I was able to do an at-home audition of the A-35R and directly compare it to my current Rotel power setup. I purchased a Pioneer Elite universal player in the past few months, and that once again sparked my interest in the A-35R. Others on various newsgroups have categorized the A-35R as the sleeper of the integrated amps due to the relative unknown status. Great performance and great price. My maggies are starting to sing. The amp was certainly a part of the problem. Now to take care of placement issues... From what I have recently read up about my Rotel piece, I have been lead to believe that it was manufactured when Rotel had it's sonic "slump" in the 90's. It is in a total enclosure, with the air vents for the heat sinks on the sides. The "guts" look puny by the Rotel standards of today. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 984 Registered: Nov-06 | I was listening to Sarah Brightman before my previous post, and her vocals are no longer overly breathy, as they were when using my Rotel amp, both here and in my previous room. Not to mention no longer grainy. It still surprises me (and burns me at the same time) that this amp outperforms my old Rotel. My Pioneer NEW was less than that Rotel used. It may not outperform it in sheer detail, but in smoothness and listenability... I'll take it :-) And I was quite happy with my Rotel too... It was a step up from my previous kit. now it makes sense that some of you wondered why I would use a Rotel amp from that generation, paired with revealing speakers when I first mentioned it. That was right around the time I first started here. I have learned much sense then. THANKS GUYS!  |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9071 Registered: Dec-04 | Gavin, enjoy your smooth clear Pioneer. Let us know how your placement games come along, huh? |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 986 Registered: Nov-06 | will do. |
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