Need help tuning/replacing/upgrading system!!!

 

New member
Username: Antman

Cape Town, Western Cape South Africa

Post Number: 7
Registered: Aug-04
Hi All,

Here is my dilemma:
I have what on paper should be a great sounding system, however I am just not enjoying it......
It can sound a little lifeless, hard treble, and sometimes just plain lose the plot on complex music pieces.
Basicaly I am looking for any advice on how to warm up and tighten up the system, even if that means replacing a component or two. I mainly listen to two channel stereo music as well as a couple of movies a week. I listen to anything from Norah Jones to classical to the Arcade Fire, Gorillaz etc....

My system

Marantz SR4600 AV Reciever (drives centre and rears)
Marantz DV-4610 Dvd player (conected via digital coax)
Rotel RA-1060 stereo integrated amplifier (drives fronts - connected to AV amp preouts with Qunex Qed 2)
Arcam CD73T cd player (connected to Rotel with Straight Wire Encore II interconnect)
Boston PV700 sub
B&W 601 S3 fronts (on solid granite and steel All Acoustics stands)
B&W LCR60 S3 centre
B&W 600 S3 rears
Straight Wire - Bi Wire speaker cable "Waveguide 3.5"

I have spent hours ensuring I can get the maximum stereo image from the fronts, made sure the room is not too bright and isolated the components on vibrapod sorbathane feet. All the electrics are running through a conditioner and filter unit.
It just doesn't sound expansive, sweet or big, my listening room is 3 meters by 7 meters, although, I only use a 3x4 section of that.

Any help would be much appreciated!

Regards

Anthony
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10676
Registered: May-04
.

"I have what on paper should be a great sounding system ... "


Can you explain why you think this group of components should be a great sounding system "on paper"?
 

New member
Username: Antman

Cape Town, Western Cape South Africa

Post Number: 8
Registered: Aug-04
Hi Jan,

I use the term 'on paper' quite loosley! By that I mean that as far as I have been able to research via magazines and the net, and from the small amount of demoing I have been able to do, the components look like they should work ok together.
I live in Africa, and I don't get much of a chance to demo a lot of the kit I would like to buy, most of the dealers here are very brand specific i.e only sell Rotel and Boston speakers or Nad and Mission. They are even reluctant to get in a piece of kit unless you pay for it upfront without ever having heard it!!! Absurd I know, but as I said this is Africa.
As a result it's quite difficult to put a 'seperates' system together so I have had to rely on 'on paper' (read reviews!) for much of my information, a bit hit and miss I know...
My main issue I suppose is to warm up the sound of my system and and tighten the sound more. I'm not sure if those are the correct terms, but best describes what I think is wrong..

Thanks for any help

Anthony
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 7698
Registered: Dec-04
Hi Anthony.
First, plug the amp into a straight wall plug, not the conditioner, and let me know what you think.
 

New member
Username: Antman

Cape Town, Western Cape South Africa

Post Number: 9
Registered: Aug-04
Hi Nuck,

It sounds the same, the conditioner is more for spikes and filtering emf, I must be honest in that I put it in more for protection of the system than improving the sound!

Regards

Anthony
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10679
Registered: May-04
.

AP - You've rather dodged the question, haven't you? I was looking for characteristics you read about on paper that made you think this kit goes together and plays well together. Collecting a dozen pieces of gear that sound good on paper to different reviewers with different priorities from each other, and probably from you, will not typically manage to make a good sounding system. So, I was looking for what you were after when you thought, "Well, this sounds like something I'd like." Tight, tuneful bass and clear mids - on paper - do not a system make. Other than "warm" is there a sound quality you want to achieve?


If "warm" is currently what you are seeking, I don't really know how to get there from where you're standing. We have had discussions on the forum regarding what the various terminologies used to describe audio performance mean and we've found very little agreement on the descriptives used to suggest this component does this or that. Most especially "warm" and "musical". Therefore the answer to your question could be to go up, down, back, forth or rub your tummy and pat your head. However, I personally do not remember ever seeing "warm" applied to the Rotel and B&W match up in any reputable review I have come across. "Punchy", "lively" and "likeable" are terms that seem to go together with that mating, but not "warm". Trying to get that combination to change its stripes without destroying its basic character is a difficult task. And quite honesly, IMO, asking for yet another opinion of what direction to head towards by buying yet more components is foolish if you can't hear the components as a system before blowing yet more cash on yet another idea of good sound from yet another bunch of hifi pieces.



What does the system sound like without the Rotel driving the B&W's? Better or worse? Why'd you add the Rotel? Was something lacking or you just read/thought this would be a good way to go? Did the Rotel add what you expected from it?


You say you've spent hours ensuring the best imaging from the speakers; how did you accomplish this? Did you use a particular set up method to achieve the results you have? Or was this done by ear and intuition alone? Is it possible you set the speakers up for imaging without paying attention to timbre? It is quite possible and highly likely that shifting the speakers to another location would make a dramatic alteration in the system's overall character.


Sounding "lifeless" is a common complaint of incorrect set up, in my experience. But again I have no real idea what that might mean in your situation. I would suggest that if you have the speakers tacked down to the stands, release them. Place them on some spikes on top of the stand or even just a thick book to hear if it makes an improvement. People tend to follow what they've read when someone claims great results with this tweak and the accept it as being a universal and automatically do the same expecting the same results. Tweaks are individual to a particular system and listener and should be done with an ear to the result not an acceptance that this is the only way to get good results. Now, that said, take this piece of advice; try setting the speakers up without any toe in. This will place you off axis of the tweeter and should calm things down a bit.


" ... hard treble, and sometimes just plain lose the plot on complex music pieces ... "


This is commonly the sound of (especially) a solid state amplifier that is struggling to do its job against an unforgiving load. Or, the sound of DVD played at any level. What sound qualities do you hear as different or, hopefully, better between your DVD and CD player? What is the best sounding disc you own and why?


Did you have any professional help compiling this system or was it all done through different dealers?



.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 7700
Registered: Dec-04
I wanted to check, Anthony, because a while back there was a good experiment with this very topic(not your system), but it helped a few lads.

Jan will ask you to death about what you now lack, how you listen, and what your reference is(usually live music), so I got to the punch first.
 

New member
Username: Antman

Cape Town, Western Cape South Africa

Post Number: 10
Registered: Aug-04
Hi Jan,

I have been a musician for over 30 years , so I quess my reference is live music, mainly acoustic with a rich vocal timbre. I suppose this is what most folk would call warm. The point I was trying to make is that living in a 3rd world country, we do not have the luxury of having access to much hifi kit and have to a large extent rely on what others have written.
I had been told by local professionals that rotel/arcam/b&w = warm (rich vocal mid range and no harsh or splashy treble!), having no reference point for this, you are rather on your own when it comes to system building. When you approach the dealers they shrug and suggest another component - which as you can tell I am a little sick of! There are very few 'proper' hifi shops in South Africa, with the vast majority being furniture type retailers dumping HT kit.
Quite often when it comes to buying kit here, you literally have to take what you can get or try and bring it in from overseas, again unheard.
The CD's I would enjoy the most would be Diana Krall, Norah Jones, largely acoustic music with a rich mid range as well as classical - Holsts Planets for example. I have experimented as best I can with the kit I have including taking rugs in and out of rooms, changing wall hangings.
I have also changed the position of the front speakers with relation to boundary wall reinforcment and only noticed a bigger bass (but boomy) when closer to the rear wall. I have another set of speaker stands so have tried those with spikes and without. Quite possibly the timbre of the speakers might be more affected by the acoustics of the room?
When it comes to amps, I suspect you are quite correct when you said that it might be a 'solid state' sound from the Rotel, when it comes to guitar amps I would't touch solid state, I have only ever used valve as they just sound, well..right, it's the only way I can describe it!
My Arcam CD Player is currently in for repair (under warranty) as I noticed when testing it on my Marantz AV amp that the attenuate lamp lit up, I was told by the dealer that it looks like the output stage is putting out too high a voltage and this might be a possible cause of the problems I am experiencing. Can't wait to get it back!
To sum up the sound I like, when living in the UK, I like Marantz components with Kef speakers, didn't seem fatiguing when listening for a couple of hours.
The dvd player just doesn't cut it when playing cd's - very dull, grainy and lifeless, a bit like the arcam/rotel/b&w only the dedicated cd player has far better detail, resolution and soundstage.
As far as professional help goes, it is available here but with a pricetag and again tied to specific brands, so where I am now is I'm afraid very much my fault.
However I enjoy reading the responses on this forum as it leads to enlightenment and enjoyment, and that after all is what we are here for.

Regards

Anthony
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10683
Registered: May-04
.

Certainly if the CD player is overloading the front end of the Marantz receiver, you will hear harsh, brittle sound. I would wait until this problem is resolved before I attempted any other fixes. It is going to be difficult to set up the system properly if the DVD player is not reproducing good sound quality.



"When you approach the dealers they shrug and suggest another component - which as you can tell I am a little sick of!"


Actually, the situation is not that different anywhere you go. I live in Dallas, the seventh largest city in the US, and the response from the few "high end" dealers (mostly HT stuff now) who exist here is very much the same. Most dealer's staff don't have a clue what they are doing and the choices are pitiful. I sold high end audio for many years and I have to suggest, at least, that taking a dealer's advice when they suggest another component can sometimes be your best bet. Not always. Dealers hopefully pick components they feel are synergistic with their concept of sound and mixing and matching from several dealers or stock the dealer doesn't readily carry can sometimes lead to a system that just doesn't work well together. On the other hand, I realize the frustration when you would like to hear "X" product from a part of the line the dealer just prefers not to stock. I have been told I am just out of luck many times. But synergy is the key to a system that works well together and dealers should be able to put together a complimentary system.


The Rotel and B&W match is very good but not what I would call warm. However, "rich vocals" and clean treble might vary between what I expect and what you've heard. We all have our own references and most often musicians who were used to hearing a performance from the stage had a little different concept of what they wanted vs. what I am used to hearing from the audience.


I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying regarding spikes. I generally agree spikes should go on the bottom of the stand. However, if you have the speakers BluTak'd (or similarly attached to the stand) try the seakers without the attachment goop. Let the speakers have some freedom rather than being damped by the stand and their fixation to it, and see if that doesn't actually give you a more lively sound.



You didn't answer my question about how you did the speaker set up. Did you have a method you employed? Yes, the room is the major influence on your sound quality. You will notice a distinct difference moving speakers from the long wall to the short and vice versa. I would suggest you begin with this method of placement; http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html It relies primarily on the timbre of the vocal range to get the speakers in the best position and can be performed even with a DVD player and a decent disc.


Until you get your CD player back, that's about it for now. Let us know what the results of the fix are on your system.


.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Nadz

California

Post Number: 40
Registered: Aug-05
Your Arcam is not at fault in this situation. The reason the Marantz pre-amp is being overloaded is it can only handle an input of 2 volts and the Arcam outputs 2.3 volts. I had the same issue with a Marantz receiver and my NAD C542 which outputs 2.2 volts.

Hope this helps. But it sounds like your Arcam is fine.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10688
Registered: May-04
.


So what did you do to remedy the situation and did it change the sound? 2.2 Volts is max on peaks, this shouldn't have had much affect on the sound quality.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Nadz

California

Post Number: 41
Registered: Aug-05
I ditched the Marantz receiver and ended up with a NAD receiver and then a NAD integrated amp. I only had the Marantz for about 3 weeks and never really liked its sound. To bright and forward for my tastes.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10695
Registered: May-04
.


And the NAD didn't have a 2.0 Volt overload?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Nadz

California

Post Number: 42
Registered: Aug-05
No. In fact I have never seen a receiver have this issue. In fact the Marantz has an indicator in the display that comes on when this happens. I have used HK, Yamaha, Sony, Onkyo, NAD, Rotel, Denon and none of them had this kind of issue.

I wonder if Marantz designs there pre-amp sections a bit diferent.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 10697
Registered: May-04
.

That doesn't mean the overload point of the other receivers wasn't still at 2.0 Volts. The Marantz just had the indicator light. Did you check the specs before you bought the NAD?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Nadz

California

Post Number: 43
Registered: Aug-05
No I didn't check the specs on the others. Most receivers don't offer this info anyways. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't overloading the pre-amp section.

I just mainly wanted to point out with my comment that his Arcam is probably not faulty. Besides the Marantz has a function to attenuate the overload. It didn't seem to affect the sound either.
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