Stereo vs mono bass, using 2 subs
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 287 Registered: Jun-05 | this is not the often asked question of 1 vs 2 subs. i have 2 subs, one sitting next to each speaker, and was wondering if i would see any improvement feeding them a stereo signal. at the moment they are receiving the same summed signal from the same plate amp. going stereo would require me buying another plate amp. crossover 80-100hz. thanks for any opinions Bevan |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7427 Registered: Dec-04 | Bevan, the signals sent from a LFE source are in mono below about 100 Hz. If you use high level inputs, then you 'might' isolate the left and right channels a bit. Plus the 2 amps for power. Are you looking to improve the musicality of the system? That would be the only reason, and only by a widget. The idea is to create a bass environment without directionality, yes? To create big bass stereo, the 2nd amp, in stereo seems OK. |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 288 Registered: Jun-05 | Yeah Nuck, hoping to wring the last widget of musicality out of the system. I'm figuring that if bass becomes locatable above 80hz(according to common wisdom) than there would be audible, directional output up till at least 150hz where it might be 12db bellow if were a 2nd order slope. So a bassist recorded hard left at say 85db would have him also playing dead centre at 73db. Possibly enough to pull him out of position or just blur him a bit, dont you reckon? I just read somewhere that vinyl is cut with bass in mono bellow 50hz (to avoid stylus jumping out of groove I think). There might be good reason they dont sum it any higher than that. $150 for a widget is tempting. Extra headroom also wouldnt hurt with the amount of eq these dipole subs need. Two amps would also let me run them at speaker level (currently using pre-outs) with tripath amps. (using speaker level hookup to a single sub will usually destroy a tripath amp) cheers b. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 613 Registered: Apr-06 | Have you considered crossing around 40Hz? Your speakers shouldn't have too much difficulty handling it, and that would certainly help nix directional bass. FWIW though, I am a fan of stereo bass, and tend to rely upon full range speakers for music rather than a subwoofer. However, in my own setup, I haven't noted any performance loss by crossing in the sub down in the 40-60Hz range (albeit with a 24db/octave XO) |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10494 Registered: May-04 | . There is no such thing as "stereo bass". Signals are mixed into mono with a gradual slope (like everything else in the low frequency region mono bass doesn't suddenly happen at 50, 80 or 100Hz) that will be determined by the recording engineer. You are going to have mono bass no matter what you do other than record your own material. While two low frequency drivers will feed the room in such a fashion as to be generally more agreeable than a single subwoofer likely could, the quality of bass you hear is a result of the room's workings more so than the quality of one or two low frequency "channels". Bvan, if you must spend money, spend it on a better crossover for the LF system be it for one, two or four drivers. * "I'm figuring that if bass becomes locatable above 80hz (according to common wisdom) than there would be audible, directional output up till at least 150hz where it might be 12db bellow if were a 2nd order slope." Then don't use a second order filter. As I said above, some of the "bass" you hear at that 150Hz is still mono due to the recording techniques employed. * "So a bassist recorded hard left at say 85db would have him also playing dead centre at 73db. Possibly enough to pull him out of position or just blur him a bit, dont you reckon?" No, you aren't using your head at all in this case. Firstly, positional signals are perceived by where the upper harmonics of the signal reside. The fundamental in low bass through midbass has significantly less energy than the second and third harmonic of the fundamental frequency. Therefore, a signal played at 60Hz will have as much as ten times more energy at 120 and 180Hz harmonics as at the fundamental of 60Hz. (The exception to this rule is found in purely electronically generated signals which can be only the fundamental frequency if so desired. This seldom occurs, however, since most composers realize the strangeness that a solitary 60Hz fundamental would have to the listener. But, should this sort of material encompass a large portion of your library, you can discount the rest of my comments in this paragraph.) Where those higher frequencies exist as far as your ear is concerned are the responsibility of the satellite speakers. Even with a 12dB roll off applied to the LP/HP filters the satellites are still producing full energy at the higher frequencies and they will be the dominant source as far as your ears are concerned for locational cues. Should a bass instrument appear off center, not all that infrequent an occurence in classical symphonic recordings, your ears will determine the instrument's location by hearing where the upper harmonics reside, not where the lowest bass fundamental sits. If you doubt this, place your subwoofer behind you (or in an adjacent room) and play a symphonic performance with deep bass instruments ("The Planets" by Holst will do nicely and you should have this composition in your library anyway). With the sub crossover adjusted properly you should hear the bass instruments in front of you and not behind your listening position or in the living room sofa. Secondly, the room is the largest contributor to bass quality. Passively dealing with this component of your system in an effective manner will reap far more benefits than adding more electronics and transducers to the already stirred up jumble of resonances and null points, slap echo and standing waves. If you haven't invested in passive room treatment devices, you would be foolish to buy more low frequency amplifiers until you resolve any problems within the listening space. After the passive room treatments are finished, you should turn your attention to active devices to further benefit the "musicality" of the system. A parametric EQ, whether free standing such as the Behringher units or included in the better subwoofer crossovers, would be my first suggestion. After all these improvements have been made, then and only then should you turn your attention to the sort of compliment of bass drivers that would make Andre, Andy Summers (et al) and Kegger wet their pants. . |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 289 Registered: Jun-05 | Thanks Stephan. My speakers dont even get down to 100hz I'm afraid (open baffles on a pretty narrow baffle) And thanks for the edifying answer Jan. My reasoning though still tells me that in the case off a bassist playing his lowest note left of stage, the 3rd harmonic at 160(?)hz will be in theory locatable as coming from centre stage with dual mono subs, which will be at odds with the higher order harmonics coming from the far left speaker. Or am I still confusing myself. I think I'll have a hard time wringing out more significant improvement elsewhere in the system. I have corner bass traps up till the ceiling, diffusers on the front and side wall and roof, a Behringer parametric EQ (DSP1124) on the dipole subs and another one on the sealed box sub I have sitting in the corner. And the whole system is playing through a a third digital equalizer (DEQ2496) I could always lower the crossover on the stereo subs and fill in the saddle with the DEQ. Its a good thing I have EQ to draw my own crossover slopes as the generic ubiquitous Partexpress plate amps have thoroughly uselss crossovers. With the crossover dial set hard left to 40hz I can hear quite intelligible female vocals coming out of the sub in the rear corner of the room. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10498 Registered: May-04 | . "Or am I still confusing myself." Yes, you are. Firstly, let's start with the basics. Please introduce me to a recording which has the sort of "hard left" bass you are thinking of. You cannot create something that doesn't exist. You can't move a bass line by adding another sub or amplifier. Bass lines on modern mulitchannel recordings is in virtually every instance recorded as mono or near mono. Even if a bass line tracks from side to side, a properly set up system will follow the signal with ease. To attempt to rectify a situation that does not exist is a bit ridiculous. Secondly, this alteration you desire has nothing to do with the "musicality" of the system. Passing the signal through multiple EQ's might, however. I have one recording which was done at the advent of stereo when hard left and hard right with nothing center stage processing was the norm which places the bass line anywhere but at relative center. I have one subwoofer located to the side of my main speakers and the effect is as intended by the recording engineer. If you are hearing vocals from the sub, you have problems with the sub's crossover and adding another sub amp will not change that fact. I hestitate to say this, but you don't suppose some of the lack of musicality relates to passing the signal through several EQ's, do you? A parametric EQ cannot effect a true crossover so I'm not certain just what you're attempting there. . |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 620 Registered: Apr-06 | I think the problem he is having isn't with the bass per say (which is non-directional), but the higher, directional frequencies that the subwoofer produces. I've found that a high crossover (even 80Hz IMO) will cause a small bit of smearing of the image. As he has it set up (already with two subwoofers), he is trying to feed a left signal and a right signal into the appropriate subwoofers so that those higher frequencies they will end up producing are for the appropriate channel. The best solution obviously would be a steeper crossover. However, since his mains don't dig deep enough for even the standard 80Hz XO, this might create a significant dip in response. So that brings up the two plate amp solution... Not ideal by any stretch, but who knows, it might help. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7447 Registered: Dec-04 | Active crossovers and bypass the plate amp ones? |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 290 Registered: Jun-05 | To clarify, by "bass line" I mean a bass guitar or similar recorded to the left or right, as in the case of classical music you mention. Is my terminology causing confusion here? Also, I am not having any problems with the musicality of my system, in fact I'm pretty ecstatic over the music it makes. Rather I'm thinking of ways it could in theory be playing sub optimally (and that could be improved upon without spending too much) There was a problem with the plate amp, all of them in fact. I've used the parametric eq to create a suitable crossover but it took a few steep filters to do, not ideal but as that sub only plays bellow 30hz and rolls off at over 30db/octave I think damage to the signal is limited. The dipole subs have two gentle filters applied, one to relieve them of sub 30hz bass, and the other to increase their high end roll off slope to ±18db/octave rather than the plate amps useless 6db or whatever it is. The DEQ compensates for the speakers natural roll off filling in from 300-150hz, and for some mild speaker anomalies in the last few octaves. Amp to driver direct, no crossover components anywhere. I feel I've done as little damage to the signal as possible while still achieving a flat FR. I''ve often been able to pinpoint corner placed subs in other peoples HT systems (i.e 80hz crossovers). Having a sub beside each speaker it's not going to be as obvious of course but it still seems to me that in theory there could be some smearing of the directional upper bass frequencies and therefor of a bass instrument recorded anything but dead centre. I'm content now though to sleep easy with the system as it is. That would be ideal Nuck, something like the DEQX to do the slopes, FR and time alighnment. And toss the plate amps in favor of some cheap old NAD or Rotel power off ebay. But DEQX way to expensive. The affordable option would be the Behringer DCX, which a lot of hifi enthusiasts use happily. I think though(could be wrong) that is only does crossovers and not EQ as well, and it would be doing the D to A conversion which might be sub par (relative to the nos dac I'm currently using) The ideal solution which I see somewhere in my future is a pc based system where all the crossover slopes, fr compensation and time & phase coherency is done by the computer which then spilts the digital signal multiways to feed any number of external dacs. This seems theoretically perfect, even eliminating jitter issues. There's just the hardware cost of setting up properly (wirelessly with the pc in another room I reckon) got to get to work now, cheers b. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10503 Registered: May-04 | . "The best solution obviously would be a steeper crossover. However, since his mains don't dig deep enough for even the standard 80Hz XO, this might create a significant dip in response. So that brings up the two plate amp solution... Not ideal by any stretch, but who knows, it might help." How, I ask. What will another amplifier do to problems created by a poor crossover? Amplify the signals the poor crossover allows to pass. That is all an amplifier can do, pass whatever signal you feed it. I give up! "I feel I've done as little damage to the signal as possible while still achieving a flat FR.' You are certainly free to feel as you wish. I don't think you would get everyone in a hifi salon to agree however. This is a system that despite its good qualities is not well integrated. The main speakers don't reach down to 100Hz and the subs become increasingly directional as the frequency rises to reach the mains. The solution is not more amplification. However, ... "Also, I am not having any problems with the musicality of my system, in fact I'm pretty ecstatic over the music it makes. Rather I'm thinking of ways it could in theory be playing sub optimally ... " Oh, GoodLord! In theory?! You've thrown theory about the window with this system and now you're worried that in theory it might be made better?!!! In theory the main speakers play lower than the LP filter crosses. Without EQ that sends the main speaker's drivers beyond their linear range. I've given my advice, you seem dedicated to worrying about theoretical problems that don't exist while ignoring real problems that would appear to be present. My current opinion is you are throwing gnats at the front grill of the car to stop it from rolling backwards uphill. If you are ecstatic, stop worrying! You do not have to spend money for something that, at best, would represent one per cent of your music library. If you don't listen to classical music with any bass recorded off center, there is no problem. Pop, rock, jazz, etc. bass is recorded in mono. Period! Spend your money on something useful, not this. I suggest you rethink your system. If, as you say, the mains are drastically frequency restricted and the low frequency drivers play midrange when they shouldn't, there are problems another lousy plate amplifier will not solve. However, this seems to be something no one is going to dissuade you from accomplishing. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10504 Registered: May-04 | . Stephen - What subwoofer, or subwoofer set up,are you using that allows 24dB filters at 40Hz? |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 621 Registered: Apr-06 | As far as I'm aware, the bass management in most receivers these days feature a 24dB/octave XO. Correct me if I'm mistaken (either way with sub crossed that low, it should produce minimal output above 120Hz). "How, I ask. What will another amplifier do to problems created by a poor crossover? Amplify the signals the poor crossover allows to pass. That is all an amplifier can do, pass whatever signal you feed it. I give up! " Yes, but with two plate amps, you can split the signal from mono to right and left. While low frequencies won't be affected as they're mono anyways, frequencies in the 80-160Hz range would be, no? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7461 Registered: Dec-04 | B, how about a CX3400 active XO? The time alignment and slopes are there, mono is fine as well, with a sub function built in. It might even best the EQ for sloping,as this one can do 48db in some cases. B"My speakers dont even get down to 100hz I'm afraid (open baffles on a pretty narrow baffle)" I don't see how the crossover is muddied(aside from the plate amps)as the mains aren't even playing the Hz that the sub is. I just want to throw that in there. It seems like a big hole would show up, with over an octave roll off from the sub, before the mains deliver what they can. SM, yes, the lows should split at the frequency that the engineer wants,that's why I asked about the object of the game(big stereo speaker type sound) but B's full range baffles aren't rolled in by then, I bet. Maybe the hole in delivery is exposing a nasty response from the bass??? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10509 Registered: May-04 | . The spec is not provided in most cases but I believe "most" receiver's bass management will still use second order 12dB filters. Most plate amps are 12dB filters for LP and HP. Digital LFE bass management in a receiver is fairly accurate with the knee of the filter occurring at approximately the frequency chosen. If I remember correctly, the THX spec for LFE output requires a -24dB LP filter. That is, however, only applicable to THX certified components. The analog filters in most plate amps are not very accurate and typically begin rolling the signal at higher than expected frequencies. "Correct me if I'm mistaken (either way with sub crossed that low, it should produce minimal output above 120Hz)." " ... with two plate amps, you can split the signal from mono to right and left. While low frequencies won't be affected as they're mono anyways, frequencies in the 80-160Hz range would be, no?" Correct me, but aren't you contradicting yourself with those two statements? If there is minimal output through the 120-160Hz range, does it really matter if the signal that is 12-18dB down in level is in mono or stereo? Your ears will hear the more dominant signal from the main speakers which will be in stereo as much as the signal affords. Keep in mind that most modern recordings isolate instruments to a specific channel during recording and production. Not every signal at 120Hz will be blended to mono. Only those that reach further into the bass region will have any mono blend applied. Vocals and other instruments that never reach beneath 100Hz or so will remain as a stereo mix. " ... the mains aren't even playing the Hz that the sub is. I just want to throw that in there. It seems like a big hole would show up ... " Yes, as I implied, I see this as a problem. Without sufficient EQ, there would appear to be missing frequencies that must either be made up by the sub, which will then be more and more directional. Or, the mains must be EQ'd to the extent the driver's are being pushed beyond their most linear operating range. Bvan states, "Extra headroom also wouldnt hurt with the amount of eq these dipole subs need." It's not my system, so I can't say what should happen but large amounts of EQ to achieve balance is never the most desirable approach for home audio. There would appear to be more pressing issues here than another plate amp will solve and despite the good qualities of the system, there are issues I would address before buying another amplifier. But, I've not heard this system. This argument for why another plate amp will benefit the system just seems to be chasing chimeras. If this idea of a plate amp is to be pursued, this would be the direction I would take the system; http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofer_amplifiers/adire_ad a/ As is, this would be my substitute for the "lousy" plate amp that is currently in the system and allowing midrange to pass through the subwoofer's filter. "Many customers use LFE signals that already have a low-pass filter on them, but a large percentage use full-range preamps, and wanted a high order crossover roll-off. The solution? Give everyone what they need! Adire used cascaded second order Butterworth crossovers, each independently adjustable from 35 Hz to 110 Hz. You can select one, both, or neither of the crossover stages for maximum flexibility. And with independent adjustments on the two crossover points you can match the roll-off to just about any speaker out there. But the most impressive feature of the preamp section is the EQ provided. Two full parametric EQ bands devoted strictly to the subwoofer range. Many bass EQ problems can be properly addressed with just a couple of EQ bands - rarely are more bands needed! Each EQ band can range from an ultra-narrow 0.3 octaves (just a single 1/3rd octave EQ band) all the way to an extremely wide 2.5 octaves (the entire bass range). Gain is adjustable over a full 24 dB window: ±12 dB. And the center frequency for each EQ can be swept from an ultra-low 16 Hz to a high end 80 Hz. Now you can tame your room modes with ease! And there's more! The preamp includes a full Linkwitz Transform circuit that also functions as a dipole equalization circuit. These circuits are laid out and ready to roll - simply choose your resistor and cap values (small 1/4W and 50V units), stuff them into the board, and open up the jumper that normally bypasses these circuits." This design seems custom made for Bvan's system. . |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 291 Registered: Jun-05 | Found this $50 device to change 2-channel amp into subwoofer amp. Adjustable 4th order slopes (and high pass feature as well which may or may not be a bonus) Getting good review over at Audiocircle http://www.reckhorn.com/index.php?ln=en&prod=f1 Jan, the Adire amp is also an option. Not to labour my point but hopefully to clarify my thinking, the answer to my initial post depends on two things, the frequency above which bass becomes directional, and the frequency above which bass get recorded in stereo. In my situation with a crossover at 100hz, and what appears to be a slope in the order of 6db(or misslabeled crossover points), output of energy at 200hz is going to be down by lets say 6db. This is certainly directional and I think its safe to say could well be recorded in Stereo. This would cause a phantom centre image (all be it 6db down) competing with the stereo image of the bass instrument that may well be recorded left or right of centre. The stereo image will be dominant as you say, but at only 6db down the centre mono image is not completely insignificant by my reasoning. Perhaps this is not going to be at very critical to the location or focus of the bass instrument, none the less I think it is worth a thread. "How, I ask. What will another amplifier do to problems created by a poor crossover? Amplify the signals the poor crossover allows to pass. That is all an amplifier can do, pass whatever signal you feed it. I give up! " "This is a system that despite its good qualities is not well integrated. The main speakers don't reach down to 100Hz and the subs become increasingly directional as the frequency rises to reach the mains. The solution is not more amplification. However, ... " I'm still not sure you understand why I would want to use two amps. It would be to have >150-200hz in stereo, to overcome the possible smearing of focus that may or may not be audible. I made out the plate amp crossover is shite, and you seem to agree, but there is nothing necessarily wrong about a ±1st order crossover provided it is implemented right. And that is all I'm trying to do. It's not "more amplification" but rather to completely overcome the problem of the subs becoming "increasingly directional". I think stereo is the correct implementation for any driver playing this high, and for $150 I dont think it's an unreasonable idea to go stereo in this region. Alternatively I could bring the mains down to 50hz and have the subs take over from there, in which case the extra headroom another plate amp will add to the dipole subs might be welcome. Your fears of me overdriving the mains is not warranted. Putting them back on to my older bigger baffles will naturally bring the crossover down to about 50hz, no headroom lost. Alternatively I could digitally bring the mains roll-off point down from 150 to 50hz without problem because firstly, I never play above 80db(ear damage) and these B200 drivers can hit 100db without any stain so I've got a bit of headroom to spare, and secondly I ran the sealed <30hz sub at +15 db before digitally equalizing the entire signal, thereby relieving the the main drivers to of any real work bellow 30hz, so adding even more headroom, should it be needed. ±3db@ 50hz would not require much equalization anyway as open baffles only roll off at 6db/octave from their admittedly high roll off points I think your frustration is stemming from some wrong assumption, which is understandable given the slightly unusual implementation of all my eq devices and drivers as well as my unique listening habits. Its a bit of a frankenstein system I admit, and I havent even got into my rear tweeter implementation. Funny given I recently started pursuing the simplicity of a full-range single driver. None the less every mutation has been a definite improvement and I've still got something of the original purity, still having a single point source playing from 100hz to 17khz, and with no passive components at all in that frequency range. If you could only hear the system Jan I dont think you would be as critical as you are on paper of my recent addition of a digitally flattened FR down to 20 hz and the, IMHO, tightest most accurate bass I've had in my system yet. cheers b. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 624 Registered: Apr-06 | "The spec is not provided in most cases but I believe "most" receiver's bass management will still use second order 12dB filters." From what I've read on places like S&V's bench testing of receivers, the speakers roll off at 12dB/octave, but the sub rolls off at 24dB/octave. "Correct me, but aren't you contradicting yourself with those two statements? " Yes and no. The problem is that B's mains don't go low enough to avoid a hole if he were to set his XO at 40Hz. As such, the sub may well still be the dominant signal at 100 or 120Hz. In that case I think it could be beneficial to have two plate amps. Of course ideally I would recommend getting rid of the mains and getting something a little more robust, but that is up to B. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10515 Registered: May-04 | . No, I haven't heard the system but "in theory" I agree that a SDFR combined with all the cables and signal paths required for everything else you've thrown into the mix certainly qualifies it as a Frankerfurter system in my book. Whether you sit and mentally scream, "It's alive!!!!", every time you listen is for you to decide. I'm not a fan of EQ'ing for truly flat frequency response so once again we seem to depart on opinions. You are probably misjudging the filter order on your plate amp in order to justify the mental contortions you've devised. I've not come across a plate amp with less than a second order filter for LP and HP. Minus 12dB for a hypothetical signal that you can't find an example of seems sufficiently low in level that personally I wouldn't be concerned. My point remains that you are fixing a problem that doesn't seem to exist. If you do not at this time have a recording that presents hard left or hard right bass; what makes you think you will find one anytime soon? If you are not certain you are hearing this "smearing" of the bass image that you speak of, what makes you obssess over the idea it "might be happening"? There are more relevant things to be concerned with, most of which have nothing to do with image smearing. However, we have devolved to the point where I feel we are arguing just how many gnats it will take to stop that Buick from rolling uphill. The crossover unit you linked to looks interesting and possibly promising. It is your system and your cash. So, grab a bag o' bugs and aim for the headlights. . |
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Silver Member Username: BvanCape Town, Copenhagen,... Post Number: 292 Registered: Jun-05 | I'm happy to leave it at that, and my system as is. I wasnt obsessing just trying to understand the theory and have you understand the question and where I was coming from. It gets difficult and long winded arguing the finer points back and forth. one can never type out the whole story to due to time and space and so wrong assumptions are inevitably made. For example when I say "flat and "flattened" you assume "truly flat" when I am using eq to compensate for speaker deficiencies inherent in open baffle mounting and this particular drivers design, as well as room nodes bellow 200hz, leaving the majority of room induced FR fluctuations above 200hz i.e bellow 200hz flattened from the listening position, the rest flattened to a minor measured just in front of the driver. And when I say flattened bellow 200hz that does includes a mild 'house curve". All this is a bit much to type in the initial posts obviously. I'm not feeling defensive about my system, merely making the point that our positions are not as divergent as you maybe assume they are. I think your implicit assumption that most people on this forum dont have a clue what they are doing is often though not always justified. cheers Bevan |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10520 Registered: May-04 | . I have never assumed most people don't have a clue. I give them ample opportunity to prove it. |
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New member Username: BikestrikeschoppersFt myers, Floida US Post Number: 2 Registered: Jun-07 | Very simple answer... one sub. posibility of 2 different frequencies if run in stereo.I have read through some of the other responses...Not all, you recieved quite a bit of input on this one. While some good points were made, the thing to remember is how the speaker works with other speakers. It is always best to run them mono. You will get cancellation if it is run in stereo and you have opposing or different frequencies produced through the subs. A sub woofer works on the principals of moving air basicaly. If one speaker is moving at a different speed or one is moving out while the other is moving in, the cause cancellation. The only cure if run stereo is to have 2 Subs, 2 Amps and set the crossovers on each so that one frequency starts where the other ends to avoid cancellation. But this would defeat the purpose of 2 subs. I have experimented many times in the past with several subs run mono, stereo and crossedover at different freq, as well as mixxing woofer sizes. All have failed and phyisics prevailed. Im not sure if I got off base or am missing somthing with what you are trying to accomplish but from what I can see, you will be better off remaining in mono. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10526 Registered: May-04 | . "If one speaker is moving at a different speed ... " Just how would that happen if both speakers are reproducing the same frequency? I see this as some sort of Einstienian problem that postulates one subowoofer sent into space and remaining in rotational orbit for a month will return to Earth several seconds younger than its Earthbound sibling satellite speaker. Or, should that be the other way around? Satellite is sent into space, subwoofer stays here? Whatever! How do speakers move at different speeds? 60 cycles is 60 cycles; no? . |
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New member Username: BikestrikeschoppersFt myers, Floida US Post Number: 3 Registered: Jun-07 | If you can guarantee they are moving at the same cycles, there will not be a problem. But there lies the problem. Im not sure what you are using for a source, It could be a dvd, cd, radio our a band using instruments. I am reffering to home use. Ther are many times that there are different fequencies at different cycles when playind a dvd or cd on stereo mode. If you have a diffent sound coming from the left and right and you have run this into a sub in stereo, it will only confuse things. Unless you are producing your own sound, there is no guarantee the cycles will be the same. I have 2 subs in my home and it gives a option to run each sub stereo which is not recommend but the option is there. But from what I understand, you want to run each of your subs as both a left and a right. Thus creating subs in a stereo configuration. That is what stereo is, differences in sound coming from opposing speakers. That is why they created stereo sound but yet everyone runs there subs in mono.It produces sounds at different frequencies and cycles from opposing sides. I am not say running them in stereo wont work as well. Im only implying that there can be times that a stereo configuration can cause cancellation which ussually is not even noticable in most cases. I have competed in Iasca and usac wich if you are not familiar with them, they are car audio competitions. When competing, the best way to produce maximum SPL sound pressure levels with minimal disstortion was to run all sub amps crossovers and speakers mono. One thing that would help is if I knew exactly what you are using the subs for.....Home, music play back, home theater a band or in a car. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10530 Registered: May-04 | . Oh, MYGOD!!!!!! I'm sorry, I looked at your profile and it states you have 16 years of AV industry experience. And that's the answer you give to, "60 cycles is 60 cycles; no?" I honestly don't know where to begin other than refer back to my earlier statement regarding assumptions. What in the world do you do in the AV industry? I would truly like to welcome a new member to the forum but, "If you have a diffent sound coming from the left and right and you have run this into a sub in stereo, it will only confuse things. Unless you are producing your own sound, there is no guarantee the cycles will be the same", is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. But, "That is what stereo is, differences in sound coming from opposing speakers. That is why they created stereo sound ... ", is running a close second. . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7501 Registered: Dec-04 | Welcome, JF. Meet Jan. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10531 Registered: May-04 | . "One thing that would help is if I knew exactly what you are using the subs for.....Home, music play back, home theater a band or in a car." Hey, Nuck, do you know what section of the forum you're in? . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7502 Registered: Dec-04 | The boom boom civic. Where y'all at? JV, us regulars gotta have to learn too, y'know? Cut the non-educated a bit o' slack as we try to learn on the fly. Sorry, as I learn on the fly. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10533 Registered: May-04 | . Nuck, he says he has 16 years experience with this stuff and that he works in the AV industry. Is this the sort of advice you want from a "trained professional"? I bet he's got a certificate of some sort that claims he knows what the hell he's talking about. I got one from Pacifc Stereo the second day I worked there. It was for stacking five pair of Large Advents together in a straight line in the stock room. "Ther are many times that there are different fequencies at different cycles when playind a dvd or cd on stereo mode." Many times, huh? Like, uh, what, ... dozens? Hundreds? But only in stereo? And what do you suppose a "finatic" is? Yeeesh! . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7504 Registered: Dec-04 | "If I claim to be a wise man, it surely means that I don't know" |
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New member Username: BikestrikeschoppersFt myers, Floida US Post Number: 6 Registered: Jun-07 | Jan, apparently you are one of those people who decide to try to pick everything apart. I am so sorry to have stepped on the audio gods toes. but you sir are a azz. I try to explain things in a manner that all can understand instead of getting extreamly technial where some people may not understand. And as far as my explanation goes, it does not matter if it is freqencies or cycles or you moronic explanation of satellites. There is a reason all run subs in mono and cancellation is the reason because music in STEREO can have different LOW FREQUECIES and CYCLES coming from each side where they are out of sync and I am reffering to perhaps situations where you would have a 32 through the left sub and 45 through the right. This would cause serious cancellation WOULD IT NOT EINSTEN??????????? IF YOU SAY IT WOULD NOT THEN YOU HAVE NO BUISNESS WHAT SO EVER CRITISING MY EXPERIENCE. And as far as certificates I have been certified by MECP (it was required by a employer before I started my own buisness) and I have a general contractors license and electricians license in the state of Florida. I own a car audio shop which is also the base for my sister company until I can find a more suitable building which we do dedicated home theater rooms in new construction homes. Does that answer your question as to what I do in th A/V industry Jan? WHY DO YOU THINK MODERN RECIEVES WITH SUB OUTPUTS HAVE ONLY ONE OUTPUT or if they have more than one they are not labeled as left and right STEREO????? I will tell give you a hint.........I have said it several times before........give up????? its called cancellation. Yes I know there are tons of different frequncies being produced at one time but it is the low frequencies that you have to worry about and cannot have differences in them as you can have in a stereo cofiguration. Is this starting to make any sense to you yet oh brilliant one? Im so sorry I do not try to get as technical as you do, but I was only trying to give advice and make it understandable to all with out trying to act like a rocket scientist. If you cannot understand the principals of what I have said about this subject then it is you sir that should not give advice. This is simple logic for someone who claims to be as good as you are. My apologise to you Nuck. Never ment for this to turn into a pissin match. But I will not be craped on by some padantic fool who just runs around trying to dazzle everyone while getting stupid with people for no reason. I never insulted you Jan but you decided to start throwing insults when you dont have clue what you are talking about. I thought this was somthing to touch base with you on since I have had some experience with this in the past. I also compete in auto competitions and always run all subs in vehicals in mono as well. We may run our subs in a stereo configuration but they are provided from a mono signal to insure all amps and subs are provided the exact same output so all subs are timed perfectly to insure there is never any conflict between them. I also make sure all wiring for every amp and sub is the same length as well. While this is good practice, it is not necessary for all to do so. This is for extreame situations such as competitions where every little tenth of a decibal counts. Even though the acoutics of a home are far different than a auto, the same principals apply when it comes to a sub. Fortunatley, they are much more forgiving in a home when it come to cancellation because the area is greater and the subs are ussually much further apart. Many songs and movies will have the lower frequencies fade from one siide to another or only on one side or not as loud on one side wich can cause cancellation. Jan tried to say 60 cycles is 60 cycles. Yes it is but if one side is not timed perfectly with the othe in a stereo configutation, your subs could be just sucking wind. As I stated, there is a very good reason why reciever do not have a left and right stereo configuration for the subs if you were running 2 subs. You can run them in a stereo configuration from the amps using one amp per sub but bolth amps need to be fed the same signal from the same output to avoid them cancelling each other. The other key factor would be what equipment you are using. I noticed you said you are using a plate amp for one sub. If you are using a Stereo output from one side of your sorce and dont have a sub output, then I can understand why you would want to run stereo subs to insure you are getting all of the low freq since there are many times that one side may not be putting out the lows while the other side is. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 218 Registered: Dec-06 | Isn't the audiophile finatic that green furry guy with the funny nose that shows up at the Phillies games? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10536 Registered: May-04 | . "And as far as my explanation goes, it does not matter if it is freqencies or cycles or you moronic explanation of satellites. There is a reason all run subs in mono and cancellation is the reason because music in STEREO can have different LOW FREQUECIES and CYCLES coming from each side where they are out of sync and I am reffering to perhaps situations where you would have a 32 through the left sub and 45 through the right." Please, explain the difference, as you see it, between "frequencies" and "cycles". Exactly what "moronic explanation of satellites" are you referring to? I don't believe I explained satellites. How can "music in STEREO ... have different LOW FREQUECIES and CYCLES coming from each side where they are out of sync"? Why only stereo? How can "situations where you would have a 32 through the left sub and 45 through the right" cause cancellation effects? How can 32Hz and 45Hz cancel one another? If the signals are out of "sync", is it still stereo? What is stereo? Have you read the thread at all? It is agreed by everyone involved that low frequencies are recorded in mono. That is not in dispute as it is a fairly well known fact of the recording industry. You need only listen to a stereo recording to verify such information. How can you have 32Hz in one channel and not in the other? That, sir, is the essence of the thread, not how loud your car stereo can play. "This would cause serious cancellation WOULD IT NOT EINSTEN??????????? IF YOU SAY IT WOULD NOT THEN YOU HAVE NO BUISNESS WHAT SO EVER CRITISING MY EXPERIENCE." Why can I not criticize wrong headed information? If I am right and you are dead wrong, why can I not say so? And, I was not criticizing your "experience". I was questioning exactly what your experience was since there seems to be a vast wasteland which you believe is your "knowledge". If you were some fifteen year old kid who was just learning about audio, I would be more than happy to help you understand how all this stuff actually works. But, since you take money from people in exchange for this stuff you call information, you have opened yourself up to being challenged. If for nothing other than your spelling prowess. "Yes I know there are tons of different frequncies being produced at one time but it is the low frequencies that you have to worry about and cannot have differences in them as you can have in a stereo cofiguration. Is this starting to make any sense to you yet oh brilliant one?" Not even remotely. High frequencies cannot cancel? How about mids? Only lows? And only in stereo? Are 32Hz and 45Hz different frequencies? Or different cycles? How so? What exactly is a Hertz? "Im so sorry I do not try to get as technical as you do, but I was only trying to give advice and make it understandable to all with out trying to act like a rocket scientist." In my experience that almost always means "I have no ability to give technical information." "This is simple logic for someone who claims to be as good as you are." No, it is not. My knowledge has nothing to do with this. It is not logical at all. "I also make sure all wiring for every amp and sub is the same length as well. While this is good practice, it is not necessary for all to do so. This is for extreame situations such as competitions where every little tenth of a decibal counts." How would another few inches of additional cable on one side affect the SPL of a low frequency system utilizing two drivers? What logical forces of physics are at work to make this happen? Does it have to do with frequencies or cycles? After you measure the length, do you have someone else cut the cable? Are you allowed to play with sharp instruments? "Jan tried to say 60 cycles is 60 cycles. Yes it is but if one side is not timed perfectly with the othe in a stereo configutation, your subs could be just sucking wind." I didn't try to say it, I did say it. If 60 cycles is not 60 cycles, what then is it? How did it become not 60 cycles? Please explain "timed perfectly". Or, let's return to the explanation of "one speaker is moving at a different speed." If two drivers are reproducing identical frequencies in mono or stereo, how does one driver move at a different speed than the other? This is what really fascinates me. 60Hz is 60Hz; is it not? You never answered my intial question. "You can run them in a stereo configuration from the amps using one amp per sub but bolth amps need to be fed the same signal from the same output to avoid them cancelling each other." How is it "stereo" if it is only one channel? So, if I understand what you're posting, it is merely being fed an identical signal that makes the speakers not cancel? Nothing else would affect this "cancellation" you speak of? Not running 32Hz and 45Hz simultaneously? Through one speaker or both speakers? "The other key factor would be what equipment you are using. I noticed you said you are using a plate amp for one sub." No, I'm not using anything here. It is not my system we are discussing. If you had bothered to actually read the thread before spouting off, you might have noticed that. But, still, maybe you wouldn't have. How exactly would the choice of equipment affect "cancellation"? How do you choose equipment in order to avoid cancellation caused by the equipment? "If you are using a Stereo output from one side of your sorce ... " How can one channel be "stereo"? What is a "sorce"? " ... you would want to run stereo subs to insure you are getting all of the low freq since there are many times that one side may not be putting out the lows while the other side is." In a two channel music system, how can that be since low frequencies, as we all agreed within the thread, are recorded in mono? Are we all stupid? After all, you know, "there is a very good reason why reciever do not have a left and right stereo configuration." Feel free to take your time with your answers and get as technical as you feel necessary. I can take it. Thanks! . |
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New member Username: BikestrikeschoppersFt myers, Floida US Post Number: 7 Registered: Jun-07 | OK, let me try to answer some of this again since you are deciding to twist my words as you see fit I did not disputing a differences in frequency and cycles. You made that assumption by misreading or just trying to twist things againg because its all you are capable of. By the way...A hertz is a cycle per second to answer your question. Second, you are trying to turn everything around that I said. Such as how can stereo be mono?? I did not say it was mono, I said you can run a stereo configuration fron a amp but with a mono input. This is the easy way of say using a left and right channel but a single signal to you amp inputs from the source. SO SORRY I FORGOT THE U IN SOURCE EARLIER. And as far as wire lenghts. I did not ever imply that them being different lenghts would change the frequency. My reason being that is to insure all drives are recieving the same power since the longer a wire, the the greater the resitance. As I said it is only in extreme situations where everything counts. They judge those with a spland real time analization mic ya know, not by ear. And yes, all frequencies can cancelling each other. but a 2.5 khz freq cant be detected by the human ear because it is to minimal at to where 40hz can easily be heard be the human ear and very noticable. The greater the excursion of a speaker, the greater the ability to cancel. Also I know that this is not your equipment we are reffering to but you stuck your nose in. I mistook it for beings Nucks but realized it was BVAN. Regardless the remaider of the previous post was directed towards him not you. As far as the equipment goes, I never implied(once againg...you putting words in my mouth) that the equipment would cause cancellation as I do not know what he is running. I only reffered to his equipment if you will read it properly that he was running a amp to his sub and I reffered to wether or not he had a sub output one his reciever. But as i clearly stated..... I dont know what his reciever is. Wake up and quit trying to act so pro-dominat. What I stated is not a myth, in certain situations it can occur. As rare as they may be, it is possible. By the way, there is no law stating that the thread must be recorded in mono. It is just standard practice.Therfore there is no guarantee that everything you purchase will always be mono. As I stated, there are many recordings that travel outside the box and try to do things for effect. I have ran into this several times. It may only be a breif period in a track but they do exist and thus causing cancellation. You can pick every word apart all day long because this forum is obviously your life....Pathetic if you ask me but to each his own. The simple facts are, you have danced around my response all day long trying to reword me statements . Are you telling me it is absolutley impossible for cancellation to occur if the subs were run in stereo. THIS IS A QUESTION!!!!!!!! NOT TO BE ANSWERED BY A QUESTION OR WITH MORE GARBLED CRAP AS YOU LIKE TO DO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Think hard before you answer foolishly or attempt to get off the subject by picking apart my statements. I believe you know it is fully possible but have backed yourself in a corner with your mouth and cant back down because you act like a pitbull with rabies By the way, FINATIC is the way my 5 year old son spells fanatic but he likes it that way because he is a little miami dolphins fan and came up with FINATIC instead of FANATIC. Wanna pick a 5 year old apart too while your at it. Nah, he would eat you alive. Hope this answers the audio gods questions to his satisfaction. God knows, I couldnt go on another day without your approval. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7506 Registered: Dec-04 | I try to explain things in a manner that all can understand instead of getting extreamly technial where some people may not understand. Uhhh, were here to learn, Ja? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7507 Registered: Dec-04 | What exactly is a Hertz? It is a rental, picked up at O'Hare. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 219 Registered: Dec-06 | Is it Hertz? Not exactly |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7508 Registered: Dec-04 | but a 2.5 khz freq cant be detected by the human ear because it is to minimal at to where 40hz can easily be heard Nope. A short thread here recently ran through a supertweeter element a while ago, and a lot of links from there, as to why the bone of the human ear registers vibrations as sound, and the effects on musicality(and personal happiness). Who cares in a car anyhow? The space is so limited, zero seperation(like stereo) except in an ideal position. I've been to a few car Contests, and it's an engineering experiment, not a musical event. Kinda like Dr. Hyde pummels Elvis over the head with a 7-iron. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10537 Registered: May-04 | . "Are you telling me it is absolutley impossible for cancellation to occur if the subs were run in stereo. THIS IS A QUESTION!!!!!!!!" Funny, I was taught to place a question mark at the end of a querry. How then can this be a question when there is a period at the end of the (dare I call it) sentence? Nonetheless, let's pretend it has been presented more properly than the original and it (still) reads; "Are you telling me it is absolutley impossible for cancellation to occur if the subs were run in stereo?" The answer, of course, is, no, I have never implied that to be true. Please show me where I stated any such thing. What I am interested in is why you think a "32" and a "45" (Hz? I will assume so.) will cancel when they exist at the same time. Let's just suppose for the sake of argument they are not recorded in mono and they do exist as discrete signals with one in a single channel and the second in the other (not "opposing") channel. How could those two frequencies, or any similar set of two dissimilar, unrelated frequencies, cause "cancellation"? Please, include your theory of speed in drivers and how the system could get "confused" by two different frequencies existing at the same time. These really were my original questions which you have never answered to anyone's satisfaction. "I did not disputing a differences in frequency and cycles. You made that assumption by misreading or just trying to twist things ... " Ahem, " ... music in STEREO can have different LOW FREQUECIES and (my emphasis) CYCLES coming from each side where they are out of sync ... " I am at a loss as to how I possibly could have misread or twisted the word "and". This "sync" (sic) thing though is at the heart of the matter. Isn't it? "Second, you are trying to turn everything around that I said." No, sir. If you'll look again, you'll notice I repeated your exact words. That's why they're inside quotation marks. " ... all frequencies can cancelling each other. but a 2.5 khz freq cant be detected by the human ear ... " It can't? Are you sure of this? Maybe I'm just not catching what you really meant to say here since what you really posted is all but indecipherable. "The greater the excursion of a speaker, the greater the ability to cancel" Oh, I see. Not really!!! I just thought I'd make you feel good for a moment. "Also I know that this is not your equipment we are reffering to but you stuck your nose in." Uh, excuse me, but I was already here when you showed up. (Psst, it's "referring".) "Regardless the remaider of the previous post was directed towards him not you." Yes, but I read it and wanted to clear up several, though not all, of the mistakes you had made. "As far as the equipment goes, I never implied(once againg...you putting words in my mouth) that the equipment would cause cancellation as I do not know what he is running. I only reffered to his equipment if you will read it properly that he was running a amp to his sub and I reffered to wether or not he had a sub output one his reciever. But as i clearly stated..... I dont know what his reciever is." I clearly don't know where to begin addressing that group of letters. I'll try this ... Let's say you do know what equipment "he" is running. How would "that" cause cancellation? (You get to pick the equipment to be "that".) "Wake up and quit trying to act so pro-dominat." I have never been referred to as "pro-dominat". Is that good or bad? What is a "dominat"? And is it possible to be anti-one? " ... there is no law stating that the thread must be recorded in mono. It is just standard practice.Therfore there is no guarantee that everything you purchase will always be mono." Thread? You're just messing with me there, huh? Standard practice vs. no guarantee? OK, I'm going to need some help with that one, guys. This sounds like legal terminology to me. "As I stated, there are many recordings that travel outside the box and try to do things for effect. I have ran into this several times. It may only be a breif period in a track but they do exist and thus causing cancellation." "Travel outside the box". ? "I have ran into this several times." ????? OK. If the "recordings" cancel, wouldn't that mean you cannot hear them? How then could you? For only a "brief" period even? If not, what exactly is this "cancellation" to which you constantly return? What exactly occurs during cancellation? Is there a shaft of white light? Do you go into syndication? Does anyone really know what happens at the moment of "cancellation"? "The simple facts are, you have danced around my response all day long ... " Wrong again! I have stomped that sucker flat!!! "I believe you know it is fully possible but have backed yourself in a corner with your mouth and cant back down because you act like a pitbull with rabies " I fully believe many things are possible but I doubt that I believe anything you believe. I do not type with my mouth and I am not, as you can see, backing down. You get paid to provide accurate information and, so far, this has been pathetic. "By the way, FINATIC is the way my 5 year old son spells fanatic ... " You have a son? Don't tell me, you intend to teach him everything you know ... on February 15, 2020 at exactly 3:10 P.M. What I'm very much interested in is what I have asked previously and have repeated at the top of this post. "What I am interested in is why you think a "32" and a "45" (Hz? I will assume so.) will cancel when they exist at the same time. Let's just suppose for the sake of argument they are not recorded in mono and they do exist as discrete signals with one in a single channel and the second in the another (not "opposing") channel. How could those two frequencies, or any similar sets of frequencies, in that situation cause "cancellation"? Please, include your theory of "speed" in drivers and how the system could get "confused" by two different frequencies existing at the same time. These really were my original questions which you have never answered to anyone's satisfaction." Could you possibly just resolve those few issues? Get as technical as needed. Have no fear, I will muster the courage to attempt an honest comprehension of the material. Thank you. . |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 658 Registered: Apr-06 | This has been some entertainment to be sure... But Jan, I am pretty sure he's right. There is no law that states that states "should somebody make an audio recording of this thread, it must be in mono". And for more random information, this time from our buddy at McIntosh, Roger Russell... http://www.roger-russell.com/truth/truth.htm#twosubwoofers All that concerns me is... "If you're using full range speakers on the left and right front channels and no mono subwoofer, you got it right!' Thats how I roll. |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 2524 Registered: Dec-06 | Yeah I just played a 32hz signal in the left speaker and a 45hz signal in the right... I heard distinctly two frequency and could not tell *distinctly* that there was bass coming from a particular spot. I was able to tell, however, that there was a higher frequency on the right side of the room compared to the left side! Yeah that's true all you should need are speakers that go deep enough...of course that sits for the people with the $$$ haha....unless.... DIY Speakers! Now there if you design them right by picking the right XO, box sizing, drivers, and materials; now power them with enough GOOD power and they should eliminate the need for a subwoofer!  |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10539 Registered: May-04 | . SM - I'm sorry, but I believe you're wrong. The quote is, to be exact, "... there is no law stating that the thread must be recorded in mono." I hesitate to ask because I know who will answer first, but have you "ran" into a stereo thread? If it does not exist, should we consider that to be a "law" or merely a convention? Let's say you've never been in two places at once (Lord, I'm opening myself up on this one), can we therefore conclude there is a "law" which (at least) suggests this is an impossibility? Or, is this merely an issue of "standard practice"? Do you require a "guarantee" you will not wake up in two places in order to sleep well at night? We may be parsing words here, but since no stereo thread has ever been displayed and I certainly require no guarantee one shall ever appear, well, I go with "law". OK, Andre; how'd you run two signals through two speakers? How many signal generators do you have? . |
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Gold Member Username: Arande2Rattle your ... Missouri Post Number: 2525 Registered: Dec-06 | NCH tone generator, don't yaaaa know? You can run one right one left, two right, two left, up to 16 a channel. You can also have white noise, square waves, and the like. I only ran one per channel though so there wouldn't be any cancellation within the electronics. That way any cancellation that occurred would be acoustical! Of course, I didn't find any cancellation; harmony at best.  |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 416 Registered: May-06 | This beats the pants off of anything I could have watched on the tube, surfed for, or read in the newspaper. Thanks. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10541 Registered: May-04 | . Andre - Possibly your gear is one that doesn't get confused by two frequencies ocurring at the same time. We'll have to wait for clarification from our erstwhile comprade regarding this phenomenon he calls "cancellation" before we can begin to determine whether you have the magic non-confusable equipment or you just flat lucked out. Or, possibly you have made an error and didn't really hear what you clearly heard. A room is far different than a car, you know? Possibly you cut the wires just right to allow for both frequencies to exist simultaneously. Increased resistance, don't ya know? Maybe you need to "judge those with a spland real time analization mic ya know, not by ear." . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10542 Registered: May-04 | . Bvan - I do hope this portion of the thread proves my post of Friday, June 01, 2007 - 05:33 pm is accurate. |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 662 Registered: Apr-06 | "I hesitate to ask because I know who will answer first, but have you "ran" into a stereo thread?" Once. Minor side effect from alcohol. " If it does not exist, should we consider that to be a "law" or merely a convention?" " Let's say you've never been in two places at once (Lord, I'm opening myself up on this one), can we therefore conclude there is a "law" which (at least) suggests this is an impossibility?" I take it you've never been to 4 corners? I'd say a convention. A law has to be written down somewhere. Having done a search last night through all law books of every nation, there is no law that specifically states anything about threads being recorded in stereo or mono. "Do you require a "guarantee" you will not wake up in two places in order to sleep well at night? " No, but I'm pretty lax. I'm sure there are others who do worry about it though. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10543 Registered: May-04 | . Nope, never been to four corners, though I can see them all from where I sit plus four more at the bottom of the room. Seeing and being, however, obey two different laws. You misunderstand my use of the term "law". I was referring to rules of non-legally binding nature. Rules, or laws, such as gravitational pull, every action has an equal ... , don't go swimming for 1/2 hour after you eat and "If you kids don't settle down back there, I'm going to turn this car around ... " I do think non-stereo threads easily fall into that category of "laws". . |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 663 Registered: Apr-06 | What about people that have dual monitor setups that have the thread split between two screens? |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 220 Registered: Dec-06 | Sometimes when the wife starts gettin' on a little long about somethin' I shoulda done I take a trip to the other side of town for a beer. (Thanks John Prine) That leaves me in two places at once. But I always wait at least 30 minutes after eating before hopping in the pool! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10544 Registered: May-04 | . "What about people that have dual monitor setups that have the thread split between two screens?" Well, there should be a law against that. But, ... The signal is still from a mono feed, therefore, ... . |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 664 Registered: Apr-06 | But it could be possible! Stupid, sure, but possible to make a stereo thread. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10563 Registered: May-04 | . YOOOOHOOOO! Oh, I say, YOOOHOOO? OH, MISTER FINMAN? MISTER FINMAN, ... IS YOU BE HERE, MISTER FINMAN? . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7545 Registered: Dec-04 | Slow day Jan? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10564 Registered: May-04 | . Looking for entertainment. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7559 Registered: Dec-04 | Psst, lower your fly while you troll along... |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10569 Registered: May-04 | . I haven't tried a fly. I was hoping a simple lure (a spinner maybe) would net him. Really think I need to set out a trolling line? That seems a bit overboard. I'm just still curious about 32's and 45's cancelling one another. And I'm still not sure we're not talking firearms here. That would seem more logical than Hz. . |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wiley, Tx USA Post Number: 427 Registered: May-06 | Let me clear that up for you Jan. The 45 will cancel out a 32 everytime. Much boomier and if someone with a 32 comes up against someone with a 45 it is advised that the someone with the 32 turn tail and head for the hills. As to sound, the 45 is has much nore presence and provides more audible fill to the room. While the 32 is easier to handle, it lacks the kick of the 45. Anyone who hears the 32 would not be impressed. It lacks compression therefore comes off rather flat. 22 = pop pop (for comparison sake) 32 = bang bang 45 = Boom Boom 44 Magnum = KABOOM KABOOM (for comparisons sake) Of course I am discussing bookshelve models here, not the longer floorstanders. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7570 Registered: Dec-04 | The 22 has the handy opion of a screw-on muting circuit, yet retains the attack speed. Ideal for near field. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10571 Registered: May-04 | . But as I suspected, a 32 and a 45 don't cancel each other out. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 7586 Registered: Dec-04 | Depends on how you look at it. If the proponants of each meet at a transfer at 3am, and things do cancel each other out, then no-one hears the tree fall. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 10577 Registered: May-04 | . Ahh, Nuck, you've never watched "Homicide, Life on the Street". There's always somebody who hears the tree fall and it's usually somebody stupid who made it fall. |
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