I'm putting together a modest stereo for my bedroom, about 12' x 12' x 10'. I've all but decided on Energy RC-10s as the speakers, based mostly on the Soundstage review. Previously I had Axiom M2i speakers and I'm hoping these will be a step up. I haven't been able to find anything else that has received such praise around the $500 price point.
Anyway, on to the electronics. I've budgeted around $1200 for an integrated amp and CD player, meaning the more I spend on one the less I can spend on the other. I've been looking at the Music Hall A25.2/CD25.2 combo, but am getting the impression that I could do better in the amp department, especially if I buy used. I've been keeping my eye on Audiogon.
Yes! I'll make you a deal on it. It would be perfect for the bedroom. I've actually thought about keeping it for a second system, but you know how that usually doesn't come to fruition and is then talked about as the "second system that never materialized" Ever notice when sellers on Audiogon give that as a reason for sale of their wares? Funny. Let me know.
BTW, those RC-10's are awesome. Break them in for at least 48 hours to get the best sound. I auditioned a pair awhile back and was very impressed. A dealer near my home carries the Energy line.
Hi Uback, is it the newer A2 version or the older version?
I would definitely be interested, the thing is I might not have the money for a while. My last stereo was stolen so I have to wait for things to be sorted out with insurance before I can buy anything new. Once I am ready to start buying I will check with you to see if it is still for sale.
How does the Denon 2000R fare in the integrated market? I've noticed used models seem to pop up on Audiogon around the $500-$600 point, and Energy has recommended Denon integrateds as a good match for the RC-10s.
IMO- stay away from recievers, unless you want to get into home theatre. With all of the circuitry in one box it can make for a sound degradation. If you're only talking about doing 2-channel, then stick with an integrated amp of separate preamp/amp units. I personally think a lot of the Japanese stuff sounds a bit "anemic" especially in their lower priced stuff. Aside for the NAD receivers, one needs to go up into the higher priced recievers to get better sound quality- usually $1500 and up. This is just my opinion though. I'm sure that there are folks here that may vehemently disagree. The CA 640 amp is v.1 and is silver in color.
Unlike most on this forum I really like Japanese electronics. The Denon is a great amp with a big, sumptious sound, though a bit bass heavy. Powerful enough to handle many difficult speakers.
The looks are great too! Like most Japanese amps it has a 70's styling: big and heavy, a metal front in gold or champagne finish. Too many knobs you'll probably never use, but much better looking than European minimalistic styled amps. Yes I do love bells and whistles.
I stand corrected. I, have some vintage 1981 Yamaha components, The A-80 integrated, separate tuner and EQ. The sound from this vintage gear is on the bright side. I have never heard the 2000 Denon unit.
Two giant black boxes sounds great, but without any knobs?...I really need knobs Nuck, not to use, but to look at! At least give me some VU meters then...
I heard them at a store where they didn't have many good amps, mainly AVR's and where they were sitting they had the C series next to them. The Yamaha and HK AVR's drove the C series very easily and they sounded pretty good but when switched over to the RC's the sound just died... (HK's did a little better) I was sure that the RC's needed more current and low and behold as soon as we put a decent (Parasound I think) pre amp and power amp on them they really sang. Very neutral and easy to listen to. If you don't have the current they are a horrible combo of lifeless and strident..I know, is that possible, yes it is.
The reason I asked if Josh had pulled the trigger on the RC's is that I wondered why he wouldn't consider the Epos speakers if he liked their sound. I know I would rather have the Epos.
I haven't pulled the trigger on anything yet, just shopping around and asking lots of questions. When I listened to the Mira I also listened to the Apollo player and was so impressed by it I am doing my best to fit it into the system. This might mean picking up a used Mira 3.
I thought the Epos speakers sounded great, but they are twice the price of the RCs and I have a limited budget.
I heard the RC-10s today for the first time, and I came away entirely unimpressed. Problem is they were in front of an old Denon receiver and a Yamaha DVD player, so I've discounted the experience entirely. Unfortunately Energy's only dealer in the Seattle area is more of a commercial audio guy and I didn't get the impression that he knew much if anything about home stereo. He also is selling the RCs for their list $550, and I've heard several times that most Energy dealers will do much better than this. If I end up with the RCs I'll be buying them online.
Art - would you say a Rotel 1050 with 70 rotel watts a side and fair current suffice them. I am inclined to them as they are beautifully built and as Josh said can be discounted by the dealers easily even under 400 USD which makes them a bargain. And ofcourse the sound is well reviewed. The dealer i went to stocks NAD and uses a NAD integrated to Demo them and says the are a little less on details?????? I am pretty much thinking same as you that they need to be fed well with good current and have a feeling that they might just be the one for the RB 1050 for my bedroom. Any ideas? Cheers
saurabh, I ain't Art, but here goes... Yes, the 1050 will run them well. Yes, a Nad 162/272 will do better. A Rotel 1080 and 1075 processor will do better, best when running balanced.
Saurabh, you are running very close to a fully balanced system.
Aww, come on in, you will never look back.
All these guys on the Apollo forum, they don't know a balanced system.
Would you know of any other pre amp other than Rotel which might be a good option. What do you think of Tube pre Amp likes of Dared........ Or is it true that Tubes get serious only higher up. No particular goals in this exercise but love to experiment and want to find some speakers i can live with for a few years (not many).
What about the looking at the Epos M-5's I recently heard a pair that had been 200 hours broken in that sounded really great. They would be in your budget and would get you the Epos sound for less money. Give them a listen.
I sent an email to Andrea Sundaram, the SoundStage! author of their RC-10 review. His opinion is that the RC-10s are a more refined and neutral speaker than the Epos. Here I think he was referring to the M5 as he mentioned not having heard the M12.2. It doesn't hurt that the RC-10s are also a fair bit cheaper!
My biggest concern currently is that the RC-10s will sound too dull and boring in front of the Rega components I am considering (Mira and Apollo), as they are reviewed as a very neutral speaker. With the M12.2s in front of the Rega amp and player, I do recall thinking that a dull nature such as this would be possible. The thing is that the room I was listening in was of substantial size, and may have simply been too large for a bookshelf speaker such as the M12.2 to fill, causing them to sound slightly thin.
OK, Let YOUR ears be the guide. In YOUR system. There are a TON of variables to keep in mind when listening to speakers, let alone any other component. Where the system will reside in your home, is it in a big, small, medium, wood floors, carpet, windows, curtains, where will the system be sitting in said room, etc, etc, etc. The effect of acoustics to what you hear is huge. Another thing to keep in mind as well: Researching components and speakers in publications and web sites can also be variable. What I mean by that is that reviews are opinions. They too are conducted in environments where there are variables like I mentioned above. The reviews are in most cases conducted utilizing "reference" gear components. These components too have their own sound. At the end of it you are getting the interpretation, and opinion of the reviewer- these things all being influenced by the variables that most likely will not exactly match the variables that YOU will have in your home, i.e., your room, associated components, etc. Most systems need to be cohesive in nature and play well together to reach an optimum level of sound quality. Sound quality to YOUR ears. If there is a dealer(s) in your area that will allow you to audition gear at home, I highly recommend doing so. Leveling the playing field as much as possible will help you to pick the best speakers. Also, ask whether or not the speakers have been sufficiently broken-in. Some speakers such as certain models from Totem or Dynaudio need upwards to 200-250 hours to sound their best. My Era 5's needed over 175 hours to get there. Also, sometimes when I'm reading a review in Stereophile or TAS, do assume the speakers are broken in when they are reviewed, or are they fresh out of the box? Sometimes, they will mention in the review that they broke them in before discernable listening occured. Sometimes not. Lots of stuff to keep in mind! But, imo, it's what makes this hobby fun. Good luck
Well, one used Mira 3 is on its way. I'll probably pick up an Apollo this week, and take the two of them back to the Energy dealer and have another listen.
Really? I asked the dealer and he told me I could just spin a disc. Either way, one black Apollo is on order and should arrive at almost the exact same time as the used Mira I paid for a few days ago. Score!
I just saw that you posted in the Subwoofer section that yo were looking into sub/sat systems. The R1 would be my chioce and opinion as to where to start looking. The R1 is a great speaker, and priced very well for what they accomplish. They're about $550, give or take a few bucks.
My Rega dealer does not stock Rega speakers to the best of my knowledge. I will have to ask if he could get his hands on a demo pair of R1s. He does stock Epos, and thinks the M5s would be a good match for my Rega components.
I still want to audition the RC-10s. I'm also going to see if I can find some Paradigm Studio 20s, NHT Classic Threes, KEF iQ3s, and basically anything else I can demo around my pricepoint of $800.
You can't go wrong demoing as much as you can in your price range. I'm pretty surprised they don't carry Rega speakers. They've been getting some very good press lately. Most Rega dealers are great to deal with and will most likely get whatever Rega you want to demo so long as they know you're a serious buyer.
I haven't heard them together, but Epos should be a great match.
They're very tough to beat dollar for dollar. Just be forewarned, their sound isn't everyone's cup of tea. People either love them or hate them, even people who love the rest of Rega's gear.
The NHT's will eat the Energy's alive... with the 20's a second... If you're in the market for spending $800 on speakers, the NHT 3's and Era 5's would be on my shortlist.
I've only heard 3 speakers connected to the Mira. The were Rega R1, R5, and Linn Katan.
Look around and see if you can find some of the following brands -
Epos Totem Linn Quad PMC Spendor Neat
These companies have a wide range of types and prices for speakers. I have no idea how they actually sound together, but I think they probably should sound pretty good. Try auditioning the other bigger and more available brands such as Paradigm, etc.
There's not much information out there regarding Rega amplification and speaker matching.
You best bet would be talking to your dealer. If they don't have anything you like, they should be able to tell you what other brands will do well with it. Most Rega dealers are very good.
Josh, although they don't get talked about much around here, I have Boston Acoustics VR2s hooked up to a Mira and think the sound great (but take it with a grain of salt as I haven't tried anything else with the Mira).
They would go well with the types of music you're talking about.
Also look at Triangle's "Heliade" speaker. Small floorstander that sounds very good. Stereophile rated "Class B" and you can get a pair for just over 1k. Check em out.
I know this is off topic but just how good are those nht classic threes??? for what i'm hearing about them and the price??? they sound like a real steal. i love the what i' hearing about the eras and david solomon was extremely helpful with info on the eras. plus real wood veneer. But for music with a modest amp. which of these three will shine the best in your opinion guys the nht 3's the 20's or the era's d4. I'm looking at imaging, bass response and that wow factor..........
you're going to have to step up to the D5's I know their more money, however, the bass response is so much better than the D4. I want to mention something here that I have noticed of late with my D5's: I recently upgraded the interconnects between my 540d player and 640A to Nordost Blue Heavens and they added another dimension of bass to my system and rendered all music from the blackest of backgrounds I have ever heard. The interesting thing with this combo, is that while my 640a is about a 81 watts into 6 ohm (the Era's are 6 ohm speakers) with the Blue Heavens, what I felt I was missing by not having dymanic power with the 640a -is no longer missed- I cranked the unit up and everything seemed to "bloom" a lot more with the Nordost's. To make sure that I was not talking myseld into some psycho-somatic-derived sound increase, I put my signalcable interconnects back into the system (the Analog 2's) and while they sounded really good, they dont emphasize the low end like the Nordost. Great interconnect, but maybe not the best for my system. I've learned that part of the fun of this hi fi "hobby" is carefully placing gear together that will play well together. A system is the sum of its parts. Overall sound and cohesiveness is what I think we are all striving for. I also, about a month ago replaced the stock power cord to one of PS Audio's inexpensive upgrades. Power Punch ($50 at Audio Advisor) This upgrade along with Nordost, along with the Mrytlewood blocks that support all of my components, together have made it sound the best IT can sound. For those naysayers that say cables and power cords do not make a difference in sound, think again- While one can spend a fortune on these kinds of things, you don't have to in maximizing the sound of your system. Besided its fun ripping apart your rack to install cables and then quickly reinstall others to facilitate comparisons!!
Yeah right....I've been doing it for weeks and the shine is just about worn off it for me.
I totally agree with you UB, except about the fun part, my back is feelin' the strain. When my wife hears me groanin' and moanin' while fussing with the cables she says "I'd think you were in distress if I didn't know you were having so much fun".....ah boy.
Absolutely not wanting to start another debate over "Do cables make a difference".
But i cannot agree more with UB - Changing Power Chords to Merlin Tarantula, changing cables to Kimber 8tc and VDH interconnects have made so much of a differene sonically for me that i couldnt believe it. Small changes, but they all add up. Its painfull, time consuming and difficult to get it right in one go, but rewarding at the end.
Just got back from a session with the Epos M5, M12.2, M16 and Rega R3.
The Rega is an interesting animal...it is very direct, somewhat harsh at times, but always lively. Listening to Dire Straits' Sultans of Swing, the Regas were far more energetic than any of the Epos offerings, although I can't say I enjoyed their tonal balance as much. Bass was heavier than with Epos, and not as articulate. Trebel was more crisp, but not as smooth.
In the end I preferred the Epos sound, although I can't say I didn't enjoy the R3s on certain recordings. I have my eye on a pair of M15.2s.
Well I found a great deal on a new pair of M15.2s at $890, so I snapped those up.
I loved the M12.2, and would assume the M15.2 will sound very similar as it is the same speaker in a larger cabinet. I've read that the M15.2 isn't as snappy or airy as the M12.2, but hopefully either that isn't the case, or my ears aren't good enough to notice a difference!
Bah! FedEx tracking says the speakers were delivered last night at 6:00. Our front desk (I live in dorms currently) says they don't have them and they couldn't have been delivered last night because they close at 5:00 and nobody would have been there. Tracking usually states if an attempted delivery was made, so I'm a little worried about my speakers!
Josh, they sound pretty good...but I think I'll keep my 5's. What time would you like me to bring them back...honestly hope everything is alright. I hope Stu is right and Nuck is wrong!
Hi Art, thanks for breaking them in a bit. If you could drop them off tomorrow morning that would be great. I take it you'll be in the white FedEx truck?
Stu, it's possible they were delivered somewhere else, although our dorms do have a dedicated shipments office, they aren't open past 5 on the weekends.
Fingers are crossed that they arrive in good order tomorrow. I won't have my Apollo until the end of the month, but an iPod will suffice until then.
I have left the Cambridge Audio stuff behind and have graduated to the next tier of Audiophiledom:-) I have joined the Rega crowd and have just purchased a Rega Apollo -Wow! That thing is incredible. My cd collection just got better. Also rounding out the upgrades is the addition of a Jolida hybrid integrated amp- 1051RC. It's 100 wpc and blows away the 640a it has replaced- The transparency and smooth delivery of this unit is just incredible. It's a lot better of a match for my Era 5's
I'm thinking about trying a tube pre-amp this summer. My current Apollo/Mira/Epos M15.2 setup is lacking a little something that my previous stereo, at 1/3 the price, had.
Right now it's set up in a small room and everything is still breaking in, so I'm hoping by the time summer rolls around and I can get everything moved into my intended listening room (bedroom, same place my old stereo was), things will sound much better. If not, I have a friend who is extremely knowledgeable regarding tube guitar amplifiers, and is just getting into stereo stuff. He's restoring a pair of Eico mono-blocks currently, and I might see what he could come up with as a pre-amp to play around with in my setup.
give the Epos about 100 hours of break-in. Leave them cranked pretty loudly with some dynamic music: Metallica, Jazz, anything that will exercise them and get em loosened up. Case in point: My Era 5's took over 200 hours to get there. I left them for 2 weeks in my attic, facing each other, one wire out of phase, under a lot of blankets,blaring away to a 5 disc cd changer. The difference after this time period was like night and day. I have a dealer here in Columbus who sells Epos and he told me he takes breaking in of all speakers very seriously. He even does this before actually selling the speakers to customers. Smart move. Let me know if you have any ?s
place the speakers together facing each other (drivers to drivers) about an inch apart. Now wire them up like you normally would, but in on one speaker reverse the wires plug the red in to black and black into red. Do this on only one speaker. Wire the other speaker as you normally would. Do you have 5 disc changer handy? If so load it up with some dynamic music and put it on repeat (all 5 discs) Crank the Mira up to 11'o'clock on the dial and let this sit for days on end. Placing a bunch of blankets on the top of the speakers along with one of the speakers wired out of phase will help to contain the volume. If you're in a dorm, I would put the set up on your bed and when you're at class, let it go....keep track of the hours. After 100 hours, give them a listen with a recording that you know pretty well, or a recording that you noticed that didnt sound very good. This will allow you to hear the progress of the break-in. I think with Epos, you're going to need 100 hours break in - that should do it. Some speakers like Dynaudio's or Triangle's need double that and quadruple that, respectively. Break in is a necessary evil to getting the most out your set up and makes a difference. We're going to talk power cords, interconnects, and mrytlewood blocks next! Talk about taking your kickbutt Rega/Epos system to the next level!! Enjoy the system for now.
Thanks Uback, I will be sure to do that. Is there any advantage to having each speaker wired out of phase for half of the break in while the other is wired normally, or is it just as effective to keep the same speaker out of phase the whole time?
Proper break in will have to wait about 4 weeks until school is out and I can get everything home. The Epos currently reside in my girlfriend's house, and I don't want to intrude too much by creating a cacophony of noise!
Uback - 11 o'clock? I can have the volume knob at that position and the speakers really aren't very loud at all, even in the small room they're currently in. Could just be that the Epos are a bit difficult to drive?
Josh, out of phase is for the break-in period only. It allows for having the speakers close together to reduce the sound pressure level(loudness)of having the speakers blaring away(the cacaphony of noise you mentioned!) It also prevents the woofers (which are facing each other) from hitting one another when producing bass heavy sounds. With one speaker out of phase the woofers are both firing inadvertently- like a "push-pull" with the out of phase speaker's woofer protruding in, rather than out. Oh, before I forget, considering your Mira does not have a "mono" button and the unit is in stereo, go to Radio Shack and purchase a 2 male rca to 1 male rca adaptor. Plug the 2 sided rca into the amps inputs and the 1 side male in the left or right out put of the cd player. This will force the signal to mono. I know this makes no sense- just do it-- There's a method to my madness and would take a lot more time to explain than I have at this moment In regards to the speakers not being very loud-at the 11 0'clock position- it's all relative as to when the level that is needed to sufficient break-in occurs. Considering what you are doing during the break-in, which is exercising the woofer surround rubber (think breaking in the leather on a pair of shoes) and exercising the tweeter to allow it to reduce some of the associated harshness found in most new tweeters. Considering the specified power of the Mira is 61 wpc, I would say to crank it up a bit more when you're doing the break-in, but use caution as not to put over drive the amp into distortion. I would say about 12-1 o'clock as a guesstimate. Also keep in mind that all of the Rega gear needs break in too. Having fun yet? Hopefully, I've answered your questions. My ph. is 614-204-1946 - if you need further explanation.
Thanks Uback, I appreciate the information. I understand the advantages of connecting one speaker out of phase during break in, I am just wondering if connecting the other speaker out of phase half way through the break-in process and connecting the original out of phase speaker normally has any advantages. As in, for the first 50 hours speaker one is "pushing" while speaker two is "pulling" but for the second 50 hours, speaker one is "pulling" while speaker two is "pushing". I suppose the surround is going to loosen up either way.
Forcing mono makes sense as it would have each speaker producing the same musical information during break in, which would exactly match one speaker's push with the other's pull.
The reason that 11 o'clock isn't very loud is because the Mira uses a passive pre-amp. I don't know why, but I've noticed that passive pre-amps tend to need more of a twisting from the volume knob than active pre-amps. Also, the volume control in the Mira isn't like most others. Correct me if if wrong, but I thought I read that if you push the volume button on the remote quickly and release it, then push it again it'll be more of a fine volume control, whereas if you hold the button down, it'll be a course adjustment. That was a mouthfull. Hopefully I explained it right.
But again, 11 o'clock on a passive pre-amp not being very loud is normal in my observation.
It is normal Stu. I believe there are 3 settings for the Mira 3 and you are supposed to let your Rega dealer adjust it if you want it adjusted. I turn it past 1 o'clock with vinyl and with the new cartridge I'm getting it will likely be 3 o'clock. Don't be afraid to use the volume Josh. Same rules apply to it as any other. If it distorts you've gone too far if not you probably haven't. I've never come close. I had a dealer use most of the volume control without a problem.
OK, that makes me feel much better. The volume knob on the Mira itself provides much finer adjustment than the volume control, although I wasn't aware there was a 'secret' way to get fine adjustments with the remote. I'll have to give it a shot.
Art, what are the 3 settings you speak of? The sensitivity of the volume control, or the position of the ring of red light relative to the volume?
61W into 8ohms: Gain range or level 1 sensitivity = 870mV Gain range or level 2 sensitivity = 220mV (Factory setting) Gain range or level 3 sensitivity = 150mV
My last post conflicts a bit with the one before it. The sensitivity mentioned in the Rega manual that Art speaks of is not related to the sensitivity of the volume knob. As I understand it, it simply affects the volume for a given position on the dial.
I haven't been able to follow Uback's break-in procedure yet, but continued listening has the Epos sounding much less constricted. I am very happy with the way the sound is progressing.
In reading the last few posts, I think I made a mistake. I think the volume tapping thing was the Naim Nait 5i, not the Mira3.
As far as break in is concerned, I just let the system play and listen. I don't leave it running while I'm not around.
Looking back, I think you originally were looking into a Music Hall and Energy system. What you've got now is nothing like it. IMO what you've got now is so much better.
Josh, Casually listening over time will get you there as far as break-in is concerned- The method that I recommended just gets you there quicker. Glad you're digging the system.
