Epos ES-11 to Epos M12.2 ?
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New member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 5 Registered: Mar-06 | Hello, I have my ES-11's for 15 years now. I always liked their sound, only they are a bit short of strong bass. I heard that the later models have a bit more bass, but also some changes in mid and high freq. Anyone who knows more about this ? I am not looking for really deep bass, just a bit more, and tight. Since 1,5 year I use an Audio Innovations Classic 25 valve-amp which gives great sound. Only that lack of bass! Could otherwise the Monitor Audio Bronze 2 with a bigger frequency-response do the job ? How is this well known speaker doing in mids en highs ? Thank you for replying |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1789 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter The ES-11 is not a particularly forgiving speaker and it's also not particularly easy to drive. The Audio innovations is a lovely amplifier but it prefers to drive easier speakers than the ES-11. The MA is easier, but it's not such a big difference to the ES-11. really and truly you should be looking at something like Audio Note AN-K or AN-J which sound great with the Classic 25. If you wanted a punchier faster solution you'd have to change the amp in order to drive the ES-11s. This most likely would mean solid state and EPOS were designed with Naim amplifiers in those days. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks Frank, But I am, as many, addicted to the valves. The mid's and high's sound very well with this speaker/amp combination. Do you think the qualities of th AN's are of good level in this department ? Regards, Peter |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1797 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter, Absolutely. I lived with AN-E/SP speakers for 10 years and could not find anything to beat them for the last 3 years of that. The AN speakers are far more capable than the ES-11s in many ways including mid/highs. That said, they do have a different voice to the EPOS speakers. FYI, the man in charge of Audio innovations during the days of the Classic 25 was Peter Qvortrop who is now the man in charge of ... Audio Note! He was using Voyd turntables and Snell K,J and E speakers when he was running Audio Innovations. After selling the company to Richer Sounds he setup Audio Note UK to make amplifiers. Some time after Snell changed their lineup designs significantly, Peter started making Audio Note speakers in a similar design to the old Snells (they look virtually identical). Snell attempted to take Peter to court over this but it never got anywhere. Peter eventually bought out Voyd and Helius (tonearms) and Audio Note UK became a fully fledged manufacturer of all components in the HiFi chain (inc CD players/DACs, amps, cables). Subsequently Peter bought Systemdek and modified that design for a more entry level turntable. Now I'll be the first to admit that the AN speakers are not the prettiest in the world, but in terms of performance they're difficult to beat in my opinion. The extra benefit is that they're a piece of cake to drive (92 - 94db/w/m depending on speaker, and the bigger ones are the easier ones to drive) so your amp will thank you for an easier life and breathe better. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 8 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks again Frank! But what is the different voice of the AN's ? The ES-11 was known as setting totally new standards for the money. Their mid and high has been compared to electrostatics and is sometimes even better. It is very dynamic and open, yet mild too. So: hard to beat. Beside that I am a bit afraid of too much low end with AN's. I think in my room ( 6 x 3,5 m.) it will not be tight. Not to speak of neighbours. The AN-K would be a possible choice but seems to be less good than the bigger ones. One other aspect is the price of course. I could try to get them second-hand. First I will try to hear them somewhere here in Holland. Regards, Peter |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1802 Registered: Sep-04 | The only place where AN-Es or AN-Js could lose out to ES-11s could be timing, but I can't imagine you're getting very good timing from your 11s with a Classic 25 driving them, and even then I wonder if the J's or E's would be better than the ES-11s. The ES-11 is a peach of a speaker, very well priced with many positive attributes. However, you need a different type of amplifier to really be able to extract that performance. You need an amplifier with far more grip and control than a Classic 25, or indeed most tube amplifiers. The Audio Note speakers are more forgiving of amplifiers. They offer a very easy load, so the amplifier is under less strain and the system has more bandwidth. I know the Js and Es go very deep. They are truly full range speakers, but they are not bass heavy (well maybe the E's are a bit, but not much if at all). I do not recall the Ks since it has been a long time since I heard them. Either way the Js and Es have a very sweet midrange and treble with very few things wrong. I know what you mean about electrostatic midrange. I would not claim the Ans have that kind of clarity, but then I would not claim the ES-11s have that kind of clarity either - and the AN midrange is absolutely beautiful with better contrast and resolution than the ES-11s. Give them a go if you can, preferably with Audio Note speaker cable. Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 10 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks again Frank, I will surely keep the things that you said in mind. I think I have the opportunity to listen to the new Epos M 12.2, nearby, as I found out today. I will give this a try first. Reviews say that the bass has improved in the newer models. I know the amp is not an ideal match for the Epos. I only use it for 1,5 year now. All the years before I have used a Harman Kardon amp which sounded to aggressive/direct. 1,5 year ago I bought a second hand MIT-3 speakercable. Together with the AI valve-amp which I already had, it really stunned me because of that beautiful soundstage and not even bad bass. One line of your reply I did not understand: " and even then I wonder if the J's or E's would be better than the ES-11s " Could you explain that to me ? Regards, Peter} |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1818 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter, The ES-11 has a great sense of timing, but it usually takes a powerful amp to get it out of them (otherwise they just sound a bit lazy and slow). The AN speakers have fairly good timing, especially considering they are part of the high efficiency brigade which are renowned for their dynamics and contrast but not for their timing abilities. The ANs are miles better in this respect than things like the Impulses, Klipsch, etc., which is why I lived with mine for so long. In my view, the M12.2 is a fantastic speaker, particularly when on its own open frame stand (the more usual pillar stands 'kill' the speaker). However, it is actually more difficult to drive than the ES-11 and I wonder if the Classic 25 would be worse off in this respect. You really want a solid state amp to drive the EPOS (Naim is the classic combination), or change the EPOS to something more sympathetic for the Classic 25. What you have is a mismatch in my view. Both excellent components, just not designed to work with each other. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 11 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks again, Frank, You seem to know very much about this matter. The same goes for me, but in another way, with other accents. I agree with you that my components are no ideal match, but a mismatch ? No. If you just knew how breathtaking guitar and voices and all details of a complex Mahler-symphony sound here. Of course the speakers lack some bass, and the amp lacks some bass too, and some dynamics. I tried a lot of amps with it (Audiolab 8000C/P, Cyrus 5, AMC 3030, Arcam Delta 90). None of them worked well. The Naim will give better timing, absolutely. But I could never live again, without the broad soundstage that my rather cheap valve-amp, together with these speakers, gives me. I just am looking for a tad more bass, and a bit tighter. So I was wondering if the new Epos M 12.2 has just that, without any loss of the good "old" sound. Unfortunately the shop in town, where I found them, will not let me take them home for a weekend or so. So I have to look elsewhere. Reviewers of this speaker no longer complain about the shy bass as they did earlier on the ES-11. Can you tell me about the difference between them ? For the moment I just keep the AN's in mind, as they also are much more expensive. Regards, Peter |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1825 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter I actually love both items you have, just wouldn't put them together. I know all the amps you tried (I have sold every one of them at some time, sad to say). In fact, in our workshop part of the shop, we have an Arcam Alpha+, Delta 90 driving ES-11s! But this is not for serious listening, just background (and testing of components). Correct me if I'm wrong but of the ones you tried, the Delta was probably the best match, if a bit warm and soft. The Audiolab would have been like watching paint dry. The Cyrus would not have had the grip and control and sounded a bit brittle and the AMC would have sounded warm and cuddly with no real grip again. I should point out that i have never really been bothered by the 'lack of bass' with the 11's or 12's. I appreciated much more the sense of cohesive timing that both these speakers delivered. The M12.2 is a bit better, but it's still not big in the bass (in my view, a good thing). It is still recognisably an EPOS but it is closer to the ES14 in sound than the ES11. It's got more scale, better definition and body, and better resolution. I have always really liked the M12 and M12.2 and think they have been overlooked partly because they only really work well on the EPOS open frame stands which makes them very unattractive nowadays - too 80s. I just don't think they're the correct choice in this case. I appreciate that the J's and E's are too expensive, but the entry level K's should not be... I hope this helps! Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 12 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks Frank, I really appreciate your comments! I might as well conclude you work in a hifi-shop or so ?! I agree with most of your thoughts. Your conclusions about all the different amps, I tried, are exactly like mine. Only for the Arcam: I found the soundstage almost 2-dimensional instead of 3-dimensional. It bored me. One thing made all the trying clear to me: The Epos-speaker is an exceptional good one, showing very clear the differences between the amps. So that's why it is not easy for me to part with them. Also it is not easy for me to part with the amp, as I built it myself 13 years ago. As I saw the cheap sale of the new Epos M 12.2, it gave me thoughts that way. As you say the M 12.2 is more like the ES 14, with more body, it still could be just what I am looking for. I am just looking for that little bit more and tight bass. My music goes from (alternative) popmusic (incl. reggae), to singer/songwriters, to classical, and a lot of worldmusic too. Even, I play some mix of world and dance too, with a lot of bass. That lot of bass in that music is enough for me through the ES-11. So because of this I do not want more deep bass. As you compare the ES-11 to the M 12.2, how is the character of the sound ? Is the M 12.2 more forward sounding, as I have heard of the ES-14 too ? I would not like that. The AN-K's would be an alternative. I think they will have a stronger, tighter, low end, because they are a closed system. But I also heard that they sound a bit shut in. In combination with the amp that could kill dynamics ?! What do you think ? Regards, Peter |
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Bronze Member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 13 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks Frank, I really appreciate your comments! I might as well conclude you work in a hifi-shop or so ?! I agree with most of your thoughts. Your conclusions about all the different amps, I tried, are exactly like mine. Only for the Arcam: I found the soundstage almost 2-dimensional instead of 3-dimensional. It bored me. One thing made all the trying clear to me: The Epos-speaker is an exceptional good one, showing very clear the differences between the amps. So that's why it is not easy for me to part with them. Also it is not easy for me to part with the amp, as I built it myself 13 years ago. As I saw the cheap sale of the new Epos M 12.2, it gave me thoughts that way. As you say the M 12.2 is more like the ES 14, with more body, it still could be just what I am looking for. I am just looking for that little bit more and tight bass. My music goes from (alternative) popmusic (incl. reggae), to singer/songwriters, to classical, and a lot of worldmusic too. Even, I play some mix of world and dance too, with a lot of bass. That lot of bass in that music is enough for me through the ES-11. So because of this I do not want more deep bass. As you compare the ES-11 to the M 12.2, how is the character of the sound ? Is the M 12.2 more forward sounding, as I have heard of the ES-14 too ? I would not like that. The AN-K's would be an alternative. I think they will have a stronger, tighter, low end, because they are a closed system. But I also heard that they sound a bit shut in. In combination with the amp that could kill dynamics ?! What do you think ? Regards, Peter |
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New member Username: RgaPost Number: 1 Registered: Jan-07 | Basically you have to simply audition Audio Note to really know wha you are getting. I have Audio Note and I am hugely biased towards them and I am a little surprised that anyone could call them shut in - but I suppose that can be true depending on what is connected up and how they are positioned. The K/Spe with Odyssey in a session I had early last year came of incredibly open but many in the room found them bright. Changing over the Musical Fidelity and the K was shut in and thumpy sounding - a complete transformation. The silver wired versions do not like much of the SOlid State amps - I had good luck with the Sugden A48b but this is valve sounding SS amplifier - more valvy sounding that some tube amps out there. They are fast punchy sounding speakers with impressive dynamics considering the small size -- I ended up buying the K over the Reference 3a MM De Capo and B&W N805 and every other $2-3k standmount I heard. I would still have them but I was able to get a slightly out of date J/Spe at a reduced rate as well as 100% of the money I paid for the K to put toward the J. So I opted for the better speaker. The thing is you clearly like Epos and screwing around with something you have liked for a long time is not always the best idea - that sonic flavour is in your head -- Audio Note will not sound the same - nothing really sounds like Audio Note. By all means do your best to audition a pair preferably in the same room with the Epos. It is all about system matching - Audio Note does all that for you which is why the AN K depending what was connected could really be a turn off. With ROtel it was brutally lean, with the oddysey bright but open, with the MF a boring frequency dullish sound with the AN OTO integated (or Soro) Open non fatiguing and "right" sounding. This reviewer turned dealer may help explain the AN K speakers better relative to some others. http://www.amherstaudio.com/ |
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Bronze Member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 14 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks for explaining, Richard. But I do not just stick to the Epos-speakers. Since 1,5 year I use the AI valve-amp with them. So only from then on, they really showed me their real quality in soundstaging and non fatiquing. This I never had before with any other transistor-amp. Sometimes I can even forget about the lack of bass, and dynamics. Frank is right in his view that the Epos has excetional timing. Beside that it is analytical and very musical too. Then again I am convinced by the 2 of you, to go listen to some AN's. I surely will! Regards, Peter |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1830 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter, I work in a HiFi shop on Saturdays. During the week I am a Software Support Engineer. in my opinion the M12.2 is a more balanced presentation than the ES-11 which can be a bit of a plodder by comparison. The M12.2 also improves on the presence range with far better contrast and resolution. It does not have the awkward load of the ES-14 and it is also better balanced than the ES-14. However, this doesn't make it easy to drive. It just makes it a bit easier than earlier EPOSs. I still think that if you like reggae and rock and music with drive, then you should really be looking at a good rhythmic solid state amp like a Naim, which does give a fairly good soundstage (just not holographic). If you want the 3-D soundstage effects with fabulous midrange, pinpoint accuracy and truly remarkable dynamics then stick with the AI but go to AN speakers. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 17 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks again, Frank, I do like some "heavy" music stuff at times, but mostly I play more "listening" music. I do not have any lack of loudness, since I do not listen that loud any more. So the soundstaging, and dynamics, are the most important to me. I think the Naim will enhance the very good timing of the Epos, but will disappoint me in soundstaging. Because of finances, I could, at the moment, only afford AN K's, and then only second-hand. I could ask for them on a Dutch hifi-site. Do you think the K's have a bit more, tighter, low end then the Epos's ? I just will try to hear them somewhere! Regards, Peter |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1840 Registered: Sep-04 | Well, at the least the Ks should come across as more dynamic. They have a sealed cabinet which aids tight bass. The 8" main drive unit is much larger than the one in the ES-11 (and M12.2) so it can move some air. They just won't produce bass which isn't in the signal. Good luck, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1484 Registered: Jun-05 | You will be fine with the M12.2s,but they work well with Creek which they are voiced on,since Mike Creek bought the company.The old Epos(ES11 ES12 ES14)were voiced on Naim as Frank stated earlier,both old and new Epos are amp and source dependent the old ones play best on Naims,the new ones play their best with Creek,unless you match them accordingly they may never sound their best and the open fram stands means a ton,so good luck! |
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Bronze Member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 18 Registered: Mar-06 | Thanks for replying! But I think i stick to valve-amplification, rather then a transistor-amp with valve-like sound. My valve-amp has moderate dynamics and - low end. I could do with a better one. There should be cheap ones too, or second hand. Any ideas ? I heard about Cayin which is an American brand ?! I still have to compare the M 12.2's with the ES 11's, and hear some Audio Note K speakers. I have the (original) open stands. |
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Bronze Member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 19 Registered: Mar-06 | Can anyone help me on my last question ? Thanks |
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New member Username: Golden_earPost Number: 4 Registered: Mar-07 | I bought the new Yamaha HS50M active studio monitors to mix my music. Man these are better than any Hi-Fi speakers I have ever used (I used to own Epos ES11s). They are designed by the legendary designer Akira Nakamura, the man behind the legendary NS1000M and NS10M monitors used in recording studios worldwide. This year Yamaha HS series was awarded a Technical GRAMMY along with NS10M monitors. The price for a pair is around $400 but these are bi-amped active monitors so you won't need a power amp(and speaker cables). You can feed them directly from the outputs of your CD player and they will sound very dynamic and transparent with deep accurate bass and smooth silky treble. If you get a pre-amp they will sound more agile. I'm listening to jazz on them, they sound like $5000 pair electrostatic speakers, they are that good. Yamaha also makes matching powered subwofers for HS50Ms and I am thinking about adding 2 subwofers(one for each channel). |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1543 Registered: Jun-05 | Actually Robin Marshall was the cheif designer and owner and founder of the company,before that he was with BBS and he was a important part of the design of the great Rogers and Sterling recording monitors. |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1544 Registered: Jun-05 | Of Epos..... |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1968 Registered: Sep-04 | Peter, Your valve amp has excellent dynamics and a good bass end. You just can't hear it because your ES-11s have heavy drivers and are making the amp work hard just to reproduce the midrange! Regards, Frank. |
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New member Username: Golden_earPost Number: 5 Registered: Mar-07 | Epos 11s are dated designs. They were good in the 90s but there are better designs today. Another thing with the Epos 11 was that their tweeter wasn't designed properly and would resonate and make quaky sounds with the recordings that have heavy treble energy. I wouldn't change my Yamaha HS50M for Epos even if they gave me $1000. Regards, Billy - Pianist,composer and Hi-Fi entusiast for 30 years (and still counting). |
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Silver Member Username: EldTexas Post Number: 190 Registered: Dec-05 | Peter, Seems like you are very happy with the sound of your current system, and all you are looking for is a little extra bass. Have you thought of just adding two small articulate subs to your setup, instead of going with something that might be a total tonal change? Might be worth investigating, especially when you can go passive and add any upstream amplification you prefer. Good luck. |
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New member Username: Golden_earPost Number: 6 Registered: Mar-07 | Peter, Get rid of your Epos 11s ASAP and get decent sounding speakers.And don't listen to these idiots here. Listen to me. I had my first Hi-Fi in 1977 before these idiots were even born. Good Luck Billy |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6454 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks, 'Billy'. What self respecting man calls himself 'billy'? In public. And calls others 'idiots'? Huh, Billy? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6463 Registered: Dec-04 | Listen Idiot stick, your 'hifi' since 1977 is about as lame as your attitude. I have GEAR older than you. So lay off the stupidity and contribute, or find another useful pastime. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6464 Registered: Dec-04 | Nice list of gear you have there Billy, afraid to expose yourself? |
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Bronze Member Username: PetherUtrecht, Utrecht Netherlands Post Number: 20 Registered: Mar-06 | Hello Frank, Are there (cheaper) alternatives to the (valve-friendly) Audio Note speakers ? Maybe some that sell in the shops, nowadays. I found out it is very hard to find some second-hand. And then i have to listen to them first. Regards, Peter |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6530 Registered: Dec-04 | Peter, I bet Frank will come up with some other makers, but AN really stand out. I heard(briefly) AN-K's with silver wireing option with a AN 6w SET, and it was fabulous. Simply fabulous. For like 10k, it had better be. The AN's, the J and K and very responsive, nearing 95db, I think. The bucks are cruel, though |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 1994 Registered: Sep-04 | Hmmm, the problem is it's not easy to make decent high efficiency speakers, which therefore translates into a cost issue. Audio Note themselves have something called the AZ-1 which is 91db efficient and retails for a lot less than the K's. There is also an AZ-2 which is 93db efficient. I haven't heard either of these so I don't know what they're like. There's the Focal 700V series which vary between 89 and 91.5db efficient, but their impedance drops a bit even though they're all rated at the nominal 8 ohm impedance. The models I would look at closely would be the 706V (90db, min 3.6ohm), 714V (better at 91db, min 4.2ohm), and 716V (91.5db, min 4.3ohm). I know these speakers well and find them very good. The floorstanding 714V or 716V would be what I would look at in your case. These speakers are similar efficiency to the AN-Ks but I think their impedance drops further than the Ks (which I think don't drop below 5 ohms). Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: Golden_earPost Number: 22 Registered: Mar-07 | I auditioned the Snell Type Js once and wasn't very impressed. They'r good for small scale music (jazz quartets, classical chamber music etc) especially when partnered with valve amplifiers. But I would'nt recommend them for somebody who likes dynamic music. Billy |
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Bronze Member Username: Shane24Post Number: 73 Registered: Mar-07 | hey billy, where u been, ur mates are missin ur expert guru threads, and posts... |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 6625 Registered: Dec-04 | Billy and Yorick... |
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Gold Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 1562 Registered: Jun-05 | Billy has to be a moron to say the ES11's suck,when you heard them you must have had cotton in your ears. |
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