To choose a tube full or hybrid
|
Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 322 Registered: Jan-05 | This christmas, Im getting a new amp =D, Ive finally managed to find a company that ships Jolida to the UK. Ive got my eyes fixed on the Jolida 1501rc at £350. Then I realised, what about full tube, the 102b (25watts p/ch) or the 202a (40watts/p/ch). Arent tube watts 3 times the equivalent to a solid state? 2 questions: -Solid state or hybrid? -Someone in this forum said theres no point in having a tube amp if you dont have tube source, true of false? Cheers for you help! |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9370 Registered: May-04 | . Tube watts are the same as solid state watts. Ohm's Law says so and you don't screw with Ohm's Law. Tube and solid state watts are not made up of the same stuff, however. Tubes are voltage driven devices, as are FET's, while bipole transistors rely on current. The speakers you would choose to suit tubes might be very different than what you would pair with solid state for just that reason. Tube amplifiers typically have a higher output impedance than solid state, particularly direct coupled transistors, and you would pick a speaker with a fairly benign impedance load for tubes. Tubes also tend to clip differently than solid state and therefore the amp will run a higher average output level leading people to think the tube amp can play louder than the solid state amp. But watts are watts and how you design the amp is more important than what output devices you use. The question of where you use the tubes in a system is a matter of taste. If you use output tubes in a power amplifier, you will eventually have to replace tubes. That is seldom considered a bad idea since you then have the opportunity to alter the character of your system with new tubes. Low voltage tubes in a pre amp last much longer and cost much less to replace than output tubes. . |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4689 Registered: Dec-04 | I recall a post saying that many listeners enjoyed their amplifiers best, that they 'sounded best' as the tubes were old enough to give up shortly after. Does this ring a bell? As concerning tube longevity. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9377 Registered: May-04 | . For consumer audio, new tubes sound their best and slowly age and deteriorate from the first moment thay are in use. Guitar players often prefer tubes that most audiophiles would discard as completely worn out because of their softness, harmonic structure and clipping characteristics. . |
|
Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 323 Registered: Jan-05 | It makes sense then that many people mention that tube amps can be underpowered which didnt make sense to me. For your information Jan: My speakers, wharfedale diamond 8.1 86db sens. 6ohms (i will be keeping these) Im pretty sure I'll be purchasing a Jolida 1501rc with subwoofer output come early next year. Then attaching a 50watt subwoofer; the minotaur from bkelec. The 1501rc is a hybrid so will be using pre-amp tubes. As you rightly mentioned tubes offer the tweaking ability so I think I'll be looking at some JanPhilips 12ax7 tubes if I can get my hands on some. My fear is that 86db sensitivity is too low for a tube amp, or does this not matter since the power section is ss. Logically, I find it very unbelievable that a tube amp/hybrid would have no difference in sound quality if the source wasnt tube. Would I be right, because naturally how is the amp going to know if it has tubes inside, it will follow the same sort of circuit whether it be voltage or whatever solid state uses and output sound dependant on the QUALITY of the amplifier-of which tube amps have a different quality build and therefore sound output about them. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9382 Registered: May-04 | . I've tried to follow what you meant in that last paragraph a few times now, but you lost me with your logic. If you mean the amp is a collection of inanimate objects and therefore can't know what parts are being used in a purely metaphysical manner, I would have to agree. But since tubes operate in ways that do not approach the techniques of solid stage gain stages, in a more generic sense, the amp does "know" what parts are in use and you will know when you make a wrong decision of how those parts go together. Much of this is still distilled down to Ohm's Law. Voltage and current function as two distinct properties in getting work done. High impedance and low impedance much be matched for a successful circuit operation. Gain stages, distortion and noise are all inter-related. Describing the differences between tube and solid state, specifically bipolar transistors as FET's tend to work more like tubes than transistors, is a bit more than this thread requires. But reading your comments I would say a hybrid amp is a good place for you to begin. Matching of these functions will be performed by the designer and you can sit back and enjoy the music. When you say "tube source", are you referring to a phono section or digital player with tubes in the circuit or do you mean a tubed pre amp section? There are reasons to pick which type of gain device you either need or require in all cases and saying you need one or the other is absurd. The success of the system depends on synergy and all components operating to achieve one overriding goal. Often the characterisitic sound of a tube circuit is not in synch with the nature of a solid state circuit and pairing the two, no matter where in the system, can lead to a disasterous mishmash of competing interests. Which gain device you choose cannot be boiled down to throwing the dice and hoping for blind good luck based on what you read in magazines. I'm concerned about a few statements you have made in your last post. Tubes are not by their very nature built to a different quality standard than transistors. Tube circuits are often times more simple in their signal path than transistor circuits but even if that is the case in two competing amplifiers, it constitutes one part of many, many things that can contribute to the "sound" of a pre amp or power amplifier, or a simple buffer stage for that matter. I do get bothered when I read someone is expecting a "sound" from tubes. Not to get too esoteric but all electronics have some inherent sound and just having tubes somewhere in the circuit doesn't guarantee anything. So, I'm not sure what you are expecting from your adventure with tubes. No amplifier can be "underpowered" for the needs of the speaker, and having too few tube watts still can lead to disappointment and blown tweeters. But in the case of the amp you happen to be considering, the fact it contains tubes in the pre amp obviously has no bearing on how the power amp will clip under the dynamic conditions of driving a speaker. We are once again venturing into an area that takes far more explanation than the thread allows but 86dB tells me nothing about what amp you might need. Your taste in music, the size of your room and its furnishings, how you listen, the actual impedance at various frequencies and the phase angle of the combined speaker components along with a few other facts would just begin to scratch the surface of guessing how many watts to buy and what sort of watts you should have. You can get an idea how loudly the system will play by adding up a few numbers but they generally don't tell you what you will get in the real world and don't take into account that song you really like after you've had a few beverages to relax. Already planning which tubes you'll substitute is surely putting the cart before the horse. I'm not at all clear on how you came to your decision but I would suggest you just listen to what you own for a while before deciding how to change it. I get the impression you are doing all this without the help of a dealer and based primarily on what you read. Tell me something that is not meant to be a trick question. Do you listen to live music? . |
|
Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 324 Registered: Jan-05 | First off I'll answer your question. Nope I dont, I have 1 or 2 live albums, Nils Lofgren is one and a few odd live songs. I must apologize for confusing you in my last post, reading the last part of it to myself, it actually doesnt make too much sense. I'll blame it on being tired and in a rush. Your explanation of inanimate objects is much better! "The success of the system depends on synergy and all components operating to achieve one overriding goal." I agree to this statement. To let you know my source is a soundcard, so this is solid state? Its a great emu0404 using the analogue outputs, left and right. I dont plan to switch from this either. I appreciate how you can get bothered about people expecting a certain sound from tubes, with the knowledge you have it must be annoying to see so many people wanting something they could hate. Myself, Im actually guilty for this, although Id like to think that I take it more seriously, not to mention that money is quite precious to me at 17. When I mentioned a tube source Im talking about digital player with tubes in, such as a tube cd player. What you said about tubes clipping differntly and blowing tweeters simply doesnt sound tempting. But I really dont plan to push the amp to its limit. If you must know, and I do like the sound Ive achieved after a lot of careful tuning, im running my diamond 8.1s from a subwoofer (and old cambridge soundworks fps1000). The bass and mid bass is tuned to come from the subwoofer and the (originally satellies, now wharfedales) delivered everything else. Hence why I had to tune using my soundcard hardware effects. The sound is a mixture of explanations, but to be honest its hard to put a direct finger on 'audiophile words' since I have nothing to compare it with. I suppose to be honest with you I want a tube amp to experiment and HOPEFULLY be pleased to keep it. There are limitations to my current sytem, the subwoofer is muddy and doenst hit hard enough although at the same time I like its laid back laziness. The system also isnt loud enough for times when I really want to rock out. (specs of the fps are 3.5watts per satellite, but the amp i think has some good headroom because it drives with some good oomph). For the parts I understand, music taste: metal, rock, some jazz and dance/house, odd thing here and there, room: 12ft by 9ft (roughly). Furnishings: painted walls, carpets, curtains, bed and a fair bit of clutter and junk! Although this probably means nothing as you rightly said there are too many factors to jump to a 'all sort and go' conclusion. You'd be right as I mentioned above, I am indeed basing my decisions on everything that I've read. Although I bought my wharfedale diamonds after hearing them on the walls in a cd shop in town and also based on reviews. At home, they sound far better, most likely due to a better source and because they're in a stereo arrangement. All im trying to do is fix up a system that will not bore me, last a good few years, make me feel I've got my moneys worth and at least meet the sound quality of my current system-which may seem like a blatent comment but I feel like I've put a lot of effort and 'love' into this setup. Its the involvement and emotion which is important to me in a system. My cambridge soundworks had a surround effect (hence the name fps1000) but this was in 2.1 setup which I do actually miss a bit but the roar quality of the diamonds have made up for this. A mistake I made some months back was purchasing some m-audio dx4 monitors. Although the imaging was surpsingly pinpointed, bass wasn't impacting and they didnt go loud at all nor was there the dynamic fun of the diamonds. Shame. Due to me being 17 and a student with no form of easy transport or any close hifi dealers where I can demo its tough for me to listen and make judgements.I wish I could take this hobby as seriously as you. Richer sounds I suppose will be a way of demo-ing the cambridge amps as this is 30 miles away and there may be a place 10 miles away which stocks some Jolida and NAD for me to make my own comparisons, although I think this demo-ing facility is the really expensive stuff (1k and upwards). I hope this is a more professional and understandable post =) JJ |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4708 Registered: Dec-04 | JJ, if you want an amp to play with, and you are on a budget, a cheap tuber might be fun. I have delivery of an 18w tube integrated waiting for me when I return home. I got it for 75$ on ebay.plus shipping from Hong Kong.Ouch. I am going to use it with low efficiency speakers(86). In fact, these are speakers from a poster here. Single driver bookshelves. I will source them from the pc, with a Creative Platinum Plus soundcard, cardas cables. This kit is meant for near-field listening, but I bet that a small room would be happy with it. $500.00 all around. How's that sound? |
|
Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 325 Registered: Jan-05 | Thats a good price on that 18w amp but Im looking for something I'll actually keep and use as a 'propa' piece. Hell, sometimes I dont know what I want. The creative platinum is on a par with audigy 2 stuff isnt it? What bookshelfs are they? Single driver and no tweeter? $500, so about £270, not too bad!! I spent £45 on a custom interconnect that I've hardly used in my system as I jumped the gun, otherwise my speakers and soundcard would add up to only £145. True bargain! I did nearly buy an amp on an ealier post from Hong Kong, but looked a bit naff. Warranty issues since its Hong Kong not to mention the cost of replacement tubes. I was thinking of getting the t-amp or t-amp 2 just to see for myself what was so amazing about the little thing. But the t-amp is impossible to find a power supply for. I think what I'll do before I leap to buying a Jolida I'll actually demo cambridge audio and NAD for what all the hype is worth and come to some solid conclusions. Maybe even Marantz too, for some reason I've put Marantz off! |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4714 Registered: Dec-04 | I have a T-amp for the singles. Ling speakers, from www.alegriaaudio.com Tim's company. Excellent fellow. Look for Timn8er here. The T-amp has a power supply available for 20 bucks. JV uses a small battery like in an emergency light. The Platinum card is among the best I could find. Also expandable with an outboard in/out module for the uberaudioweenie in me.I may get that one as well. Next weekend I will run Cardas cable to my DAC from the pc. Replacement tubes are a fact of life, I think, JJ, but that very issue means a chance to roll in different tubes and experiment with results, perhaps leading to a better informed decision on something a bit less kitch, and more investment like. |
|
Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 326 Registered: Jan-05 | Expensive speakers for my budget! How do you find them Nuck? As long as you like the soundcard, I remember when I had my sblive moving from it made me realise how awful it was for music. Yes it does mean I can experiment. In my position though without hearing any equipment I feel like I can get an idea of what I will like and wont like when I come to audition. Im looking forward to hearing the 540a from ca. People say its bass shy which imo would be good since I'll be using a subwoofer and I dont want loads of bass coming from the main speakers! |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4722 Registered: Dec-04 | Enjoy the ca demo, JJ. Be sure to do an accurate A/B as soon as possible with some other gear. Use your own cd's.Your music. Remember, the gear can be like s@x. Even if it is only average, somewhere someone will think it is the best ever. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9387 Registered: May-04 | . JJ - It appears you are still deciphering what sound you really want to live with for a long (?) period of time. I cannot discourage listening to a product before you buy. I would suggest that buying for minimal monetary loss means buying pre owned gear. Many pieces of equipment can be bought at reduced prices and re-sold at nearly the same price once you're ready to move on. This is a good way to hear various pieces of equipment without loosing large sums of money. Certainly a piece of equipment like a hybrid amp could fit into this plan. There are some dealers who still handle some trade in and consignment pieces so you can possibly invest with a bit more confidence by having the opportunity to hear something before making a purchase. If you go this route, let me suggest a few things. Try to cover your butt but don't get overly hinkey about the results of pre owned purchases. Most people are honest and are just trying to recoup some of their investment so you can usually buy without much concern. Most established on line sites have some guarantees of satisfaction and you can report violators of any on line policies. There are times when things don't work out for you, the buyer, and when that happens you have to assume some responsibility for you trying to save some cash. Don't try to get a better deal than advertsied but expect to get what's advertised. If you do go to a shop to audition some gear, please, don't then go to an on line source to save some cash. You are paying a few extra dollars for the expertise and benefits of the shop and when first starting a system, those advantages can come in handy. But, if you're still curious about something you can't find in your area, consider a good deal on something with some gentle care from another considerate audiophile as an option. . |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 4725 Registered: Dec-04 | Sage Advise, JJ. Please take it under advisement. I have an average setup, all pre-loved, and saved a lot. Find a dealer to spend time with. Listen and listen sommore. Ask questions. Come back to this(and other) forums.Listen. Your short thread has gone from a Jolida tube amp to ca540. In 12 posts flat. Husband your monies and trust your ears. |
|
Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 327 Registered: Jan-05 | Thankyou for you advise, it really is helpful. To be honest with you, I wouldnt really go online to save, I agree with buying from store for the expertise there. the ca540a is £250 at richers, good deal for a new one if you ask me. I know Nuck, quite funny that somebody can change their mind so quickly. The idea of buying pre-owned was as you said Jan, a little off putting but your logic makes sense. Ebay is in my head right now. I'll take a trip to richer sounds someday to see if they'll let me demo. Maybe I'll buy a second hand amp from ebay and see how much I like it. Dont worry I shall always refer to this forum, its currently the only forum I go on! Few months, I'll post back in this to say whats new! I'll always trust my ears Nuck  |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 9392 Registered: May-04 | . http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/fsb.pl |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics