Whats better - Tube or Solid State Amp
|
Bronze Member Username: TomcatAllentown, PA Post Number: 48 Registered: Jan-06 | I have a pair of Ascent-i. I bought a cheap amp just to test speakers. I have checked several other forums and magazines and now wondering what kind of amp I should buy. The short list contains Tube Amp: Audio Research VSi55 or VS110 Quad's new valve amps Solid State Cambridge Azure 840a Rotel RMB 1095 or Rotel 1080 with 1075 Sunfire Cinema Grand 200Wx5 Aragon 3005 (price a bit higher) I have also heard that tubes have to be replaced after 5 years or so. Tube amps are also more expansive in general. Bryston, Classe, and Anthem P5 are too expansive. My questions are What would be the top two choices from above? Is there something better in the price range of above listed amps that I should seriously consider? I can't audition them side by side for comparison but someone else on the forum may have done that, please share your epxerience. |
|
Bronze Member Username: GamerdudeOntario Canada Post Number: 85 Registered: Apr-06 | have you seen/read about the sonic t-amp? google it adn read some of the review on it its pretty desent ask Jan about it |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4416 Registered: Dec-03 | kamran, There is a thread Tube Talk started by Rick Barnes. It is long but the earier archived part has some general discussion of tubes/valves compared to solid state. A number of us who posted there have moved over to tube amps as a result. I have an "entry level" PrimaLuna Prologue Two and like it. From your list I would consider the Quad Four/Forty but that's just me, since I believe the Quad ESL speakers to be the best on the planet for my purposes and I assume they have thought about compatibility issues. |
|
Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 206 Registered: Mar-06 | Wow, John, I had a look at the tube talk archive. Pretty informative, but I will need to go back to this later, as work calls me now. I find it interesting that you like tube amps, and also Quad electrostatics. This leads me to try to guess what your taste in music is. Let me guess, you are not Iron Maiden's #1 fan? |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomcatAllentown, PA Post Number: 49 Registered: Jan-06 | I am going through the tube talk link. It does have usefull information. But a lot of the Amps mentioned only have 50Watts or less per channel. How much tube power would I need to drive difficult speakers like Martin Logans that requires 200W+ of solid state amps. Don't I need at least 100W of tube power? Are there favorite multichanel tube amps at this power rating for under $4K? |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4421 Registered: Dec-03 | kamran, Let us hope you attract the attention of the real experts. The rated power issue has been debated many times. Somehow a tube Watt is worth more in sound pressure level than a transistor Watt. As I write now that seems absurd, but... Good guess, Rav, thanks, but Iron Maiden is a bit limp-wristed and laid-back for me. I prefer well-recorded heavy machinery, pile-drivers and pneumatic drills, that sort of thing, all without distortion. I heard and saw a guy switch on his car system in a multistory car park last weekend. He did it twice to show how the sub would set off all the car burglar alarms on the same floor. Nice. |
|
Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 36 Registered: May-06 | John, I thought that I read recently that it is the harmonics associated with tube amplification which add to the weight or volume being higher at the same power level of a transistor which suppresses much of the harmonics, 4th and above. I have been seriously considering Rogue Audio M-120 Monoblocks but am leaning against them as; 1. It is my understanding that there is more rounding off of the bass with tubes and it would lack some of the punchiness I get with my Carver M-4.0t. 2. The treble may not be as high as with SS. 3. Once I get the 2nd Carver M-4.0t refurbished and into my system it will make it difficult to turn away from bi-amping 375 wpc that I will be capable of. 4. The Rogue Audio Magnum 99 Tube Pre-Amp has provide me more sound satisfaction from my system. |
|
Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1670 Registered: Feb-04 | How's the noise floor on your Carver m4.0t? I have one on semi-permanent loan and don't use it because of the audible power-on hiss in my high-sensitivity speakers (104 dB/W/m). |
|
Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 37 Registered: May-06 | PG - I have the same hiss issue which is noticeable when power is up but no media is playing and also during the "space" between notes during a piano solo and such. Once I heard it I am now dialed into it.  I have not had the time to change out equipment or pull the RCAs to see if it affects the level or not. I have 2 Carver M-4.0Ts which I recently purchased from an old friend. They are about 15 years old, were heavily used for 9 years and have sat idle for the past 6 years. I have one Carver out for refurbishment. When the refurbished unit returns and I swap it into my system, I plan to send the one currently employed in my system out for refurbishment as well. My hope is the refurbishing will eliminate or at least minimize the hiss to palpability. Then I will be on the bi-amp path and one very happy camper. If the hiss persists I will redeploy the Carvers into my HT system and distress over Tube vs. Solid State...even though most of what I play masks the hiss, I will not, can not live with it. That or I will be attempting to entice Jan with an offer of multiple espressos at a Starbucks of his choosing, to lead me out of the misery I will find myself in.  |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3459 Registered: Dec-04 | Try try the Scotch route, Mike. |
|
Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 38 Registered: May-06 | Do you think I should be enticing Mr. Jan with Oban? I found a new one I like, Tomatin, from the Highlands Region, Speyside (Findhorn) District, but alas this is not the correct thread for this. Cheers! |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3460 Registered: Dec-04 | Uhh, every thread is correct for a fine single, Mike. Yup! The shop mailed, I can pick up on Saturday. So long as I return to my own country in time, I shall have the gear! Whoop! I shall provide good ss info then. As compared to the great tube info already here! |
|
Gold Member Username: Rick_bOrlando, FL Post Number: 1401 Registered: Dec-03 | Listen and decide for yourself. You all know which way I vote! |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomcatAllentown, PA Post Number: 50 Registered: Jan-06 | From what I have read the sonic-t is only good for speakers with sensitivity of 87db or below. So far, I think I will get either of the two below Rotel RMB 1095 or Rotel 1080 with 1075 Sunfire Cinema Grand 200Wx5 and add a tube later to bi-amp the fronts. power the panel with tube and woofer with SS. Is there a good tube 3 chanel amp? |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3470 Registered: Dec-04 | kamran, if you scroll down to 'tube talk', you will be amazed at the quality and quantity of info. Bring a snack, it's long. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3471 Registered: Dec-04 | I tried to delete the previous post but could not. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 8886 Registered: May-04 | . "The rated power issue has been debated many times. Somehow a tube Watt is worth more in sound pressure level than a transistor Watt. As I write now that seems absurd, but... " I would seem impossible because it is impossible. A watt is a watt and can be defined by simple parameters and measured with basic mathematics. And little of that has to do with what happens when an amplifier has to drive music through a loudspeaker. What you are discussing, John, is not the number of watts an amplifier can produce but rather how much voltage an amplifier can produce into a resistive load and, more particularly, what happens after the voltage limit has been reached. Tube amps are often less offensive than a transistor amplifier when either begins to clip the signal waveform. A softer clipping action allows the listener to tune out the momentary bits of mostly even order distortion as the average SPL gets higher. Since your "loudness" is usually judged by the average, and not the peak level, tubes seem to play louder because you can run the average level higher while ignoring the mild and often less offensive amounts of clipping distortion. This is true in general for tubes, though any tube can be designed and manufactured to clip harder or softer. Any circuit can be made to do likewise. Therefore, tubes can go into hard(er) clipping and solid state devices can have soft(er) clipping characteristics. " ... it is the harmonics associated with tube amplification which add to the weight or volume being higher at the same power level of a transistor which suppresses much of the harmonics, 4th and above." Several reasons for "tube" sound and "transistor" sound have been floated for decades without any solid proof of their existence or their effect on what we hear. The issue of harmonics seems to be almost everyone's favorite when discussing vacuum versus sand. But, it too is simply too broad to be the only reason the two devices have been regarded as sounding unlike one another. The issue of harmonics only just scratches the surface of how the two devices differ in the broadest terms and ignores the most recent solid state devices being manufactured. Virtually all reviewers would agree tubes and solid state "sound" much more alike than different in today's market. And companies which manufacture both types of equipment seldom express a preference for one device over another. But, generally agreed upon theory says tubes produce more even order harmonics which tend to be similar to what nature creates. This would give tubes the edge in that even order harmonics seem to add a "sweetness" to the music while the more predominant odd order harmonics of transistors are not duplicated anywhere in nature. The unnatural distribution of harmonic distortion product during normal usage tends to make solid state equipment more difficult to tolerate and more amusical for many listeners. But, these are broad sweeping statements which tend to paint all tube and solid state devices with the same brush. Surely bipolar transistors do not reproduce a signal with the same distortion product that FET's will add to the signal. And, triodes will not have the same power or distortion components which you would achieve by using a beam power tetrode. So, while it is convenient to hang a simple explanation on general perceptions, there is much more to the manner in which all output devices reproduce a signal. . |
|
Silver Member Username: RavbainsMelbourneAustralia Post Number: 211 Registered: Mar-06 | Hi Jan, I read what you have said with interest. My only comment is that I think that Lavardin, the French amp manufacturer are really on to something, when they talk about memory effect in transistors. Now they seem to shroud some of their work in secrecy, which I find a little suspicious. I have read reviews of their amps, and seen reviewers comment that line level circuitry is often potted, and output devices have had their identities removed. But the only reason, why I hold Lavardin's work as being credible, is that their amps definitely sound different (and IMHO better) than the bulk of solid state designs I have heard. I have listened to the IT reference integrated amp, and for me it embodied the best of both worlds of the stereotypical virtues that people typically associate with both tube and SS amps. Very nice indeed. The IT Reference is definitely an amp worth seeking out. cheers Rav |
|
New member Username: SolarCanada Post Number: 2 Registered: Jul-06 | You can always if you're going to listen to TUBE AMP, try the Jolida Line. I heard a lot about them lately and i'mon the verge to buy after i will listen to them, i heard they are wonderfull |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 3488 Registered: Feb-05 | Jolida amps have reliability issues. They are poorly built. I would look at Cayin or Prima Luna. Both well constructed and sound excellent. |
|
Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1747 Registered: Feb-04 | My hope is the refurbishing will eliminate or at least minimize the hiss to palpability. Then I will be on the bi-amp path and one very happy camper. Michael, did you get the Carver back? Is the hiss gone? If so, you'll have to tell me what you had done to it! |
|
Bronze Member Username: Mike3Lewisville, Tx USA Post Number: 60 Registered: May-06 | Peter, To avoid doubling down on some folks, please read my posts regarding the Carver on "Hierarchically Upgrading My Components". On a seperate post under "After much soul searching" I provided this post; ""Tomorrow I will post on Hierarchically Upgrading My Components as to how it is coming with my refurbished Carver. Peter Galbraith send me a PM should you want specific information as the what the refurbishment entailed. The reason I think you may want to know is that when I wired only the speaker cables to the amp and turned it on I had a serious hiss on the left speaker and a noticeable hiss on the right speaker. I turned off the amp and connected the RCAs and dead silent. I turned on the pre-amp waited for the warmup stage and then turned it all of the way up. Nothing, dead silent. I had to look again to see if I remembered to turn the amp back on. It was. I called the repairman about the hiss without the RCAs connected but he said it is to be expected. He explained why, though I did not understand. All I know is that it needs RCAs in for it not to hiss."" Tonight I will send you the specs of my refurbishment. |
|
Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 3703 Registered: Dec-04 | Peter, I will forward, if my mail ever opens again. |
|
Bronze Member Username: TomcatAllentown, PA Post Number: 56 Registered: Jan-06 | Just to update you, I finally ended up getting Parasound A51 with C2 controller. After using it for 2 weeks the sound quality is just absolutely amazing. I will revisit tube later for bi-amping the fronts. |
|
Silver Member Username: Rick_rossPost Number: 373 Registered: May-06 | yo |
|
Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 1767 Registered: Feb-04 | Rick is trying to get his post count up? |
|
New member Username: SciPost Number: 5 Registered: Sep-06 | The post by Dr. Jan Vigne is the most informative I've seen in a long time. Thank you sir, for expanding my horizons. |
|
Bronze Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 67 Registered: Aug-04 | For future reference, you may want to consider Butler Audio's Hybrid TDB 2250 (they also have a three channel and five channel version) amp. http://www.butleraudio.com/tdb2250.php Van Alstine's FET Valve Ultra (Hybrid) amps or their OmegaStar solidstate amps. http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/amplifier/fetvalve_350ex.htm Both make excellent, no nonsense, high quality amplifier designs, which are very musical and have more than enough power for most speakers. In fact most of us will never need or use all the power available from these designs. Both handbuild each piece of gear. In my opinion, these are some of the best amplifiers out there. |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics