To be up front, I'm not an audiophile though I'd like to become more of an avid listener to higher quality music while also getting the best of a HT setup. I am one of those folks who just bought the best of Best Buy (pre-Magnolia) a few years ago to "put my toes in the water", but now want to do something pretty darned nice.
So I am moving up from a setup of a Kenwood VR-6070 receiver, Onkyo changer (died), Zenith B32A24Z (32" tube tv via S-Video) with Bose AM-15 Series II 5.1 speaker setup. Ok.. stop heckling me about the Bose....remember I am already past step one on my 12-step program, I have admitted my problem and am asking for help.
Having come to eCoustics and reading many, many a thread, I have made the following start on my system to be (note my comments as to why on each):
Denon AVR-3806 - quality for dollars with focus on HT capabilities (HDMI switching for instance)and pretty good darned sound capabilities in a 7.1 including ability to have 2nd speaker setup via analog cables for music (if I find the Denon-link is not to my liking).
Denon DVD-3910 - For the amount I can afford just about the best DVD-centric unit with DVD-A and SACD, though with that known issue of having to run multi-channel audio via separate cable set. Base management maybe a help.
Sony Bravia XBR KDL-V40XBR1 - I don't need/want a massive display, as I want it to fit to already in place cabinet setup, so 40" is great and this Sony is so sweet looking. HDMI all the way from DVD to AVR to Sony is reported to be so very, very nice.
So what do I need..why REAL speakers of course. I know to give any advice, folks need to know the room layout.
My room is a bit challenging though, so that may be the rub. Front is flat wall 15' across. Left side is basically flat 24', with 80% being window or sliding door, but all behind two layers of fabric sliding panels. Back is 22' across.
It's on the Left side I have the fun for design... left from back out 10 foot is half a level split (bottom there, top reaches to other room in higher level of house 30 foot to front). Left then has a supporting wall showing 6" of face to room, and then a up/down stairway, mostly open to 30+ foot to next wall. Then 8 more feet of hard wall back to front wall. So that whole right side is pretty much "not there" so little reflection coming there.
Primary seating is a L shaped couch running long side on left wall and then across room. While I don't have walls to mount anything on left/right of primary seating, I can put speakers on stands there just equal to or just behind the seating. Front is no problem giving a flat face or putting wider to corners aimed in to seating for better spacing for music setup (if I chose that). Back wall I can do wall mounted or stands.
Front and back walls have some cabinets with some flat faces, other parts with shelving, so not too bad on the reflections. Eight foot ceilings.
Easy huh?
So what I am looking at is spending between about $2,500 on full speaker set to handle both HT and music. Yeah, I know I may yearn for better that I could get for just a couple grand more, but that's not in my budget after the rest I've done. And isn't that what upgradebugitis is all about in a year or two.
I'm crawling with the current setup being replaced, yet I still need to walk a bit before I run, so $2,500 is the real target to spend with limit of $3,000.
What I've read through a few hundred threads on ecoustics.com leads me to best value for quality may be one of the following:
(1)Ascend Acoustics CMT-340 fronts & surrounds, 340c center, VTF-2(3?) sub.
(2)Axiom Audio M22ti fronts, QS8 surrounds, VP150 center, and EP500 sub.
Of course I've heard a LOT of others put out there, especially if I was more into 2 channel music centric listening, but that's not likely me going to get all the extra amps, filters, etc to really go audiophile anytime soon. Yet, I do want my HT-cake and to eat musically too, so maybe there is a mix setup that is even better than these.
Is there? No need for a Axiom vs. Ascend rant, but looking for reasoned ideas, alternatives, explanations.
YES I know if I just order a pair of each I can pick the one I like and send back the other cause it's my ear in my home that matters -- gosh THAT thread horse was just pulp regardless of if I lived in Oregon, Texas or Witchita!
On the AScends- you can get the less expensive surrounds without much loss of performance. There is really no need for 340s as surrounds. Also, I would take the Axiom EP 500 sub over the HSU anyday. This is not a close matchup to be honest. Although you would be happy with either. AS you know, AScend is in the middle of a model switch. The 340s are becoming the 340SEs and there are very real differences in cabinet design and drivers. So pay less for the old or full for the new, but not full for the old. Your system should be very nice. Take that Axiom EP 500 sub though.
David - The above equipment that you mention is decent. The 3806 is plenty powerful for a myriad of applications. What size speakers are you looking at placing into the room? How high is the ceiling and what kind of floor do you have i.e. hardwood or carpetting? On wall, in wall, bookshelf or floorstanding up front? What about the back of the room and are you concerned about the asthetics of a sub showing in the room? As for the Axiom vs. Ascend, let's get real. These speakers are made from parts bin OEM manufacturers and lack cohesive R&D that other brands will offer you within your price range. Think B&W, Dynaudio, Totem, Klipsch Refernece-----all great manufacturers with real laboratories and a ton of R&D time. Please, no more "me too" products. Think Infiniti, Polk, Cambridge. If you are considering the HDMI route for wiring the system, are you adding a cablebox to the mix? You may find that the HDMI output on the cablebox does not work well. Our market (Philadelphia) consistently displays synchronization problems between audio and video. Think bad Kung-Fu move with English voiceover. Your receiver may offer time delay features. Admittedly, my familiarity with the set up of the AVR3806 is limited. Feel free to contact me if you need more information about the system design.
And lastly, for all of you who try to circumvent the retail establishments by coming into our stores and begging for information. Stop wasting your time, seasoned veterans see through your intentions immediately. Everything in this world has a price, dedicated professionals to this industry train hard to stay abreast of everything pertinent to making educated recommendations for their customers. When the purchasing community finally gets their head around that, only then can the relationship of give and take occur. I feel sorry for the masses who subscribe to these threads only to hear recommendations of regurgiated reviewers who have been paid for their product endorsements. Get out there and listen for yourselves. Believe it when I say, even someone who claims they have a tin-ear can hear the difference between faithful music reproduction and cheap Taiwanese crap that is shelved at your big box retailers. Lastly, spare me the retorts about pricing. In the end you get what you pay for. Just because you saved 25% off the already ridiculous price of an off-shore manufactured speaker, doesn't mean you got bargain. It means you paid 75% of the asking price for a piece of crap. Happy Listening, 12yrindustryveteran
Marc, 12Yr... thank you for your comments. Good questions too.
Q. What size speakers are you looking at placing into the room? A. I'm open to some re-arrangement of room to accomodate, but the most likely most asthetic allows me bookshelf up front, floor standing in back, and bookshelf/smaller on sides.
Q. How high is the ceiling and what kind of floor do you have i.e. hardwood or carpetting? A. Ceiling is 8' with parquay wood floor 75% covered with medium pile rug.
Q. On wall, in wall, bookshelf or floorstanding up front? A. Per above, up front bookshelf would work best with current furniture arrangement, floorstanding might be done with re-work.
Q. What about the back of the room and are you concerned about the asthetics of a sub showing in the room? A. Since the back of room is a bit behind everyone by 6' it's visually "neglegted" and so no problems with a sub showing there. Current sub is tucked into bottom of corner cabinet in front i modified for it's height.
Cable box actualy will come out component video with coaxial audio as that's what Comcast uses here. I have one today and it's sub-par but perhaps mostly due to really long wiring runs I have here to four TV's which I am addressing separately. I believe if I pester them I can get DVI for video but not HDMI. I am considering a switch to DirectTV (even with their compression) and just this week can now go FiOS (FTTH setup by Verizon) with HD as well, but just don't have any experience there yet to know what they really do.
As to the retail vs. other -- I use both according to the support recieved. My Sony XBR and my AVR-3806 came retail, the DVD-3910 is from on-line (authorized) retailer. I am asking advice here to *augment* and as a probable pre-cursor to retail shopping as well. As a user forum I'd figure it makes sense to ask those who know a heck of a lot more than me! Since this is all pretty knew to me, prior to reading a lot of these boards the names B&W, Dynaudio, Totem, Klipsch Reference were all new to me (but for Klipsch I know from the low end 5.1 setup I got for my personal computer for gaming in low fidelity!)
Generally I am with you 12yr that a relationship matters and so when I find a good retail shop that aids me I generally purchase there. I'm that guy who comes in and says he's learning, asks 10 decent questions, says he has to go think about it, then comes back in 4 days later asks for that salesman and says, "Thank you for your help the other day, I'll take the following 10 items". Sometimes I can really brighten a salesman's day. <grin>
Back to the speaker question. With all honesty, my experience so far with shops has been they show me a variety of wonderful sounding units in their room and I just don't feel I have the trained ear (?) to differentiate at the level I am thinking for speakers. Ok yes, I can definately tell the crud ones (aka "cheap Taiwanese crap"); I really can tell they stink. To me it's like when I started to actually learn how to appreciate finer wines...there were certain ways to approach the wine other than "which one tastes better to you".
Are there listening queues, methods, approaches I should be seeking out?
if you appreciate jazz music, like myself, one of the best ways that you can audition a speaker is with a sparsely recorded jazz album such as Diana Krall's "Love Scenes"
This album has Diana on piano and vocals, a bass, drums, and a guitar. The quality of the recording is totally stellar.
Pick it up, familiarize yourself with it on your current equipment, and listen for subtle differences when you audition new speakers, such as the dampers in the piano, which you won't hear on your bose.
Gavin... yes bookshelf up front and floorstanding in back is totally backwards. I was answering what is my most likely physical possibilities not what is most likely the best plan or the one I'd do. I am considering re-arranging and changing out furniture for this though!