Amp or Receiver needed?

 

New member
Username: Phishdisc

Post Number: 1
Registered: Oct-05
I am a complete n00b when it comes to setting up a home for complete audio.

I have ran the wires for some speaker locations thorughout the house.

I will have one set of speaker wires go from a receiver/amp to a speaker distribution panel that will split it to three stereo inceiling speakers that can do 20-100wts with Impedance Matching Volume Control

My question is, do I need to run the speaker wires from the receiver to an amp to the panel? or can i get a receiver powerful enough to handle it all?

the speakers are Polk Audio RC6s, recommended amplifier power: 20-100 watts.

If I need an Amp, a 2 channel 100wt amp enough?

Thanks for your knowledge.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6247
Registered: May-04


You haven't told us what receiver you own or what you are considering. A receiver has an amplifier built into its functions.

And, I assume "a speaker distribution panel that will split it to three stereo inceiling speakers" means three pairs of speakers.


If you are looking for a new receiver/amplifier, the choice will be made primarily on budget for most people. A separate amplifer vs. a receiver will run into more money and more components as the separate amplifier will require a pre amp/processor or at the least a pre amp to supply signals to the power amplifier.

http://eli47.tripod.com/audiogloss.html

While costing the most money on average, the separate amplifier route will also provide what what is considered to be a higher level of performance and versatility. If listening critically to the system is important to you, the separates might be worth your money.

If listening is primarily background music or done while other tasks are being accomplished, the receiever will be adequate for your needs. Let the dealer know what speakers you are using and the details on the connection panel and volume controls. The dealer should then recommend an appropriate receiver with sufficient power and drive stability to meet the system needs. This will vary with how you intend to use the system and your volume requirements in each space.

Deal with someone who is familiar with whole house lay outs (probably the dealer who sold you the panel and vc's can help) instead of a Best Buy or Circuit City and you should be fine. They should be able to ask the apropriate questions to determine what amplifier/receiver will suit your needs.

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/119086.html

http://www.xantech.com/

http://www.inwallstore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=i&Categ ory_Code=_info

http://www.hometech.com/audio/

http://www.inwallstore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=i&Categ ory_Code=impedance

http://www.prillaman.net/ht_info_8-wiring.html





 

New member
Username: Phishdisc

Post Number: 2
Registered: Oct-05
thanks jan for the info.

I didn't deal with a specific dealer, unless you mean the website I bought the panel and volume control from (www.hometech.com).

The 3 pairs of speakers will actually be one speaker in each of the 3 locations with stereo input (bathroom, bedroom, kitchen). These are for music primarily.

The speaker panel is here, http://www.hometech.com/techwire/cvaudio.html#CV-C1001.

the impedience volume control here, http://www.hometech.com/audio/volume.html#VC5ADWI.


I have been looking at the Sony STR-DE898 receiver. Would this be enough to handle playing music in the home theater setup as well as the music through the speaker panel? Or would I need this and plus a 2 channel 100wt amp.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6251
Registered: May-04


Sorry, you've totally confused me with this; "The 3 pairs of speakers will actually be one speaker in each of the 3 locations with stereo input (bathroom, bedroom, kitchen). These are for music primarily." If I read that correctly and you have only one speaker in each room, you will be hearing only one channel of the stereo mix. That accounts for two of the three speakers, but not the third single speaker. If you are intending to hear the entire program material from one speaker, you will need to mix the two stereo channels into one mono output. That will require additional circuitry (usually a transformer) as I see nothing that will accomplish that task in the connection panel. You do not want to run one channel of an amplifier with an uneven load of speakers. If the signal gets mixed to mono, you will need an amplifier capable of distributing that signal. A receiver is not a good choice for that task. I would lean towards a multi-channel amplifier designed specifically for distribution purposes.


Additionally, if you are running a home theater off the same receiver as the whole house distribution system, you will either have to set up a second zone, not have the full program distributed to the rest of the house or listen only in stereo when the other locations are engaged and then have that mixed to mono for the single speaker distribution.

To set up a second zone where the home theater and the whole house will operate properly (not accounting for the stereo/mono problem), you will need a second amplifier and a receiver/processor capable of splitting the signal into a multi-zone (minimum of two zones)configuration.

I don't know the Sony you're looking at but I doubt it has multi-zone capability. Secondly, Sony receivers would be a less than ideal choice for whole house distribution if you choose this route. I really have no idea what each receiver out there does in terms of multi-zone and so forth. I would suggest you look at the Harman Kardon line to start and possibly Rotel or NAD. These are likely to be more expensive than the Sony but their build quality and overall sound quality justifies the price. Even with that, you have some issues to deal with that should be resolved by a dealer available for on site evaluation of your wiring if need be. Is there a dealer you can use?


 

New member
Username: Phishdisc

Post Number: 3
Registered: Oct-05
In the bathroom will be one speaker that accepts stereo input( the left and right channel) as well as the one in the bedroom and the one in the kitchen.

The speaker panel will take a Single two-channel (L/R) audio input and distribute it to the 3 speaker pairs.

 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6256
Registered: May-04


Yes, and how do you get the two channels input (L/R) to be output as one channel of mono? The speaker panel will take a single two channel audio input which means it will take the output from one (single) stereo pair (L/R) and distribute that as stereo information to one left speaker and one right speaker per pair. If the left channel speaker is in the bathroom and the right channel speaker is in the kitchen, that will make for an uncomfortable stereo sound. What you will be hearing from the speaker in the bathroom will only be the left channel information - no right channel. The kitchen speaker will be playing what is on the right channel - no left channel information. Unless you mix it down to a mono signal somewhere along the line. From what you are telling me, it needs to happen before the connection panel. I see nothing on the information provided that says the connection plate will do any mono mixing and it will only pass right channel information from the amplifier to all the right channel speaker outputs of the panel. Same for the left channel.


From the product blurb:

Speaker distribution of one pair in and 8 \b[pair} out.



http://www.hometech.com/technews/2005-04/technews.html


You can check with Hometech, I'm sure they offer a stereo to mono transformer; but I see no indication this connection panel will do what you are expecting.




 

New member
Username: Phishdisc

Post Number: 4
Registered: Oct-05
jan thanks for taking the time to help me on this. but i believe i am even more confused.

The product says Single two-channel (L/R) audio input distributed to up to 8 rooms. Which is 2 Pair In,8 Pair Out (which it states this on site). The installation guide even shows the left and right channel coming in. and coming out going to 2 speakers (the left and right channel)

Also the speakers will be Polk Audio RC6s, in-ceiling stereo input speaker. Which I thought means the one speaker takes the left and right channel pairs.

Or Am i totally off on all this?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6263
Registered: May-04


Yep.


Single, in this case, means one pair. Look at the picture of the panel. (http://www.hometech.com/techwire/cvaudio.html#CV-C1001) In the center you will see the inputs for your single pair of speakers. It is a left/right input from a single output of an amplifier. If your amplifier had A/B switching on the amp itself, you would run one pair of speaker outputs (speaker A, for example) to this single pair of inputs. The remaining connections are for the eight speaker pairs that are the outputs from the panel. They are stereo pairs (L/R).

Your speakers may be a stereo speaker but that only means they are meant to be used in a stereo pair with another speaker similar to that speaker. A stereo pair would be two speakers in each location. One speaker in each room will only be receiving the information from one channel - either left or right but not both.

Unless you mix it to mono somewhere before or after the speaker distribution panel.

The speaker panel, as I see it, only outputs stereo. Look at the instruction sheet and you will see four wires going into the panel (L+, L-, R+ and R-) and four wires going out to the volume control which then sends the signal to a stereo pair of speakers. (http://www.hometech.com/acrobat/cv-c1001.pdf)



 

New member
Username: Phishdisc

Post Number: 5
Registered: Oct-05
But The speakers I am getting accept the stereo input which is L+, L-, R+ and R- . so that instead of needing 2 speakers, you can use one speaker.

 

New member
Username: Phishdisc

Post Number: 6
Registered: Oct-05
so the 3 single speakers, will be just like having 3 pairs of speakers.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6266
Registered: May-04


OK, I didn't realize the speaker is a dual voice coil design, That will accomodate what you need in the way of stereo hook up to one single speaker.

Now go back to my post from Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 04:17 pm: and see if you have the other issues covered.


 

New member
Username: Phishdisc

Post Number: 7
Registered: Oct-05
I haven't decided on a receiver or an amp yet. I am trying to figure out if I will need both or not.

I'm not an expert on any of this, so I assumed I will need both.

A receiver that has ofcourse the home theater setup (7.1) as well as the multi-zone capability. Now multi zone is needed if I want to hear music in one room, while home theater is being used, correct?

So as an example lets use:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-A02W52pVTZS/cgi-bin/ProdView.asp?g=10420&id=morepho tos&i=158STD898B&pi=2&display=XL#Tab

So would it be the speakers from B go to an amp and then to the speaker panel box?

I think the multizone is throwing me off.

Also, if a 100wt amp is sent to the speaker panel box, how does it distribute the wattage? divide by 3?

thanks again jan.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6274
Registered: May-04


With the Sony as an example, you have the ability to choose how you want the system to operate. Speaker "B" will distribute anything that is also playing through speaker "A". The speaker outputs are wired in parallel and can only get the same signal feed. Stereo sources such as your tuner, VCR, two channel CD or DVD, cassette deck - anything with no more than two channels - can be distributed through all speakers with no problems.


Using speakers "A" & "B" however, will only play the front L/R source of a multi-chanell home theater source such as a Dolby Digital (5.1) surround DVD or High Definition TV broadcast from the speaker "B" output. You would loose information in the other rooms with these formats since the center channel, which carries substantial information in a 5.1 set up, would not be included in the speaker output from speaker "B".


If you used this and only wanted to distribute stereo sources to the other rooms it would be considered "multi-room". Multi-room allows the same source to be distributed to any or all rooms. The Sony can do this mulit-room system with no additonal amplifiers.




If you want to have the ability to play the home theater in the main room and the tuner/CD/tape, etc., in the other rooms, you will need to use the multi-zone function. This becomes and either/or situation where the HT system can be playing in one room and the tuner in another - but not a mix beyond that. The HT cannot be playing in two rooms and the tuner in two rooms. (That's a different hook up and combines multi-room with multi-zone distribution.)


So think of multi-room as the same source distributed to any or all rooms.


Think of mulit-zone as the ability to send two sources to two "zones"; one zone being the main HT room/area and the second zone is the rest of the house system.


For multi-room only, the Sony will allow you to run all the (same stereo) signals from the Speaker "B" outputs with no other amplifier.


For multi-zone you will use the "2nd zone" outputs. (The Sony might be somewhat confusing to look at since they did not group "ins" and "outs" together for a clearer idea of what is going where.) The "2nd zone" outputs are pre amp outputs which will require a second "power amplifier" for the second zone speakers. If you don't know, a power amplifier is just the wattage section of a receiver and they are sold separately as stand alone units.

http://eli47.tripod.com/audiogloss.html

http://diyaudiocorner.tripod.com/def.htm

http://lp2cd.com/audio_terms/a/index.html

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/119086.html


The Sony will use simple interconnect cables to connect to the power amplifier from the "2nd zone" pre amp outputs to the main inputs on the power amp. The power amp's speaker outputs will be what feeds the speaker distibution panel. Neither the speaker "A" nor "B" from the Sony will be connected to the distribution panel.



You will still be able to play the tuner/tape, etc. through all rooms in both zones. You will not be able to play multi-channel (5.1) sources anywhere but through the main HT area/zone.


Using the speaker panel you have, the amplifer will see a more or less constant impedance no matter how many speakers are put into play at any one time. The power distribution works to essentially halve (not quite but close enough)the available power as each new speaker system is added to the mix. If you begin with 100 watts to one stereo speaker system, you will have (with the impedance matching vc's in the circuit) 50 watts available to two pair and 25 watts to three pair. If you have only one stereo speaker playing and then switch on another speaker, you will hear a slight volume drop. Even at 25 watts per speaker you should have sufficient power to get reasonably loud volume from the second zone speakers. Buying volume with more power is expensive as the amount of increase with each doubling of the power is only about 3dB. That is an amount that is slightly noticeable but not enough usually to warrant extremely high power output, if the only goal is volume level. Even a 40 to 50 watt power amp should be sufficient to drive all three Polks at the same time.




 

New member
Username: Phishdisc

Post Number: 8
Registered: Oct-05
thanks jan for all the help and patience.

I think I am all set now.

jeremiah
 

New member
Username: Phishdisc

Post Number: 9
Registered: Oct-05
I am thinking of getting harman kardon 335 receiver and hardan kardon pa 2000 for amp, any bad experiences with either?
 

New member
Username: Phishdisc

Post Number: 10
Registered: Oct-05
or do should I go with the pioneer 1015. seems like this one gets some great reviews. It seems they both will do waht I need, preamp out for multizone.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6326
Registered: May-04


Jeremiah - I don't normally make recommendations on the forum for reasons I've spelled out several times. I like the HK product and have owned at least one piece of HK for over thirty years (the same piece actually while others have been put into the systems I own); but you should decide which is perferrable to you.




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