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New member Username: WongozPost Number: 1 Registered: Aug-05 | There's no such thing as dumb questions, right? Ok, here goes... I'm upgrading from a mini-system to a proper separates system. I don't have anything to reuse, so I'm looking at getting all necessary components, but as I'm a postgrad student, money is a big priority. I listen mostly to my iPod and CDs, but also radio on occasion. I also have an iRiver slim portable CD player, which could temporarily double as my CD input, but I'm actually leaning towards a DVD player that can do DVD-A as well. So my problem is... should I be getting an integrated amp or a surround sound receiver? From what I have read, i think the integrated amp is the best option, since I can get something like the NAD C320BEE or the Cambridge Audio Azur 340A for a good price. But i also read that DVD-A outputs only in 5.1 analog, and most IAs don't do surround sound. So what are my options for a receiver that could handle that? Besides the main amp/receiver and speakers (thinking of Axiom M3ti - any other recommendations?), i'm also planning on getting an Apple Airport Express so I can stream music from my laptop. I know that you can have both analog or optical out from the Airport Express, so I'm not worried about compatibility there. Thoughts and/or comments appreciated. |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 268 Registered: Mar-04 | well surround recievers aren't as bad as many seem to think they are. i LOVE my CHEAP 55wpc dts onkyo reciever playing STEREO with my NHT superzeros MORE than my dedicated NAD stereo reciever which is way too polite (even muffled sounding) in the treble fore my tastes with THOSE speakers. on the other hand, it sucks to listen to my already bright mission M71s on the onkyo. NAD is fine if you tend to prefer a warmer sound. i'm a bass hating treble freak, so onkyo works for me. if you DO get NAD... DON'T go for seperates eg. integrated amp/tuner as you'll be spending ALOT more for the same exact gear. remove a tuner from an NAD reciever, and you'll STILL pay the same amount. remove the preamp too... and you won't save a dime. if you're just starting out, i'd recommend getting a surround reciever even if you will only be listening in stereo to begin with. then, if you start watching DVDs with your system down the road, you won't need to scrap your reciever to get surround sound. you'll have alot more flexibility and most importantly, a subwoofer output which you often don't get on pure stereo components. you don't have to break the bank to get great sound on the cheap. there are some awesome $200 or so bookshelf speakers on the market. (love my discontinued superzeros). stereophile gave a great class-c rating to epos els-3 minimonitors ($330 pr.) over speakers 3 times their price. a pair of those, a decent $300 reciever and a cheap as $150 subwoofer, and you'd have a great start on hi-fi. axiom has minimonitors that are $100 cheaper that have gotten raves (read up right here at ecoustics) if you just take time to research (and train your ears to what you like and hate) you can easily build a pretty darn good system under $1000. a really good value for the money is magnepans which would be a good excuse for going with NAD as it's about the ONLY sub $1000 reciever brand that can handle 4 ohm loads. i like the sound of $1000 maggies BETTER than top rated $20,000 B&Ws myself. those 20k speakers do several things better, but the maggies are so much faster and "unboxlike" all around that they just sound more realistic to me. i want $500 magnepan MMGs soooo bad. i bet they can kick MANY $4000 speaker's butt's, ESPECIALLY with more treble extension than the $1200 big brothers that wowed me. find out what YOU like before you start buying gear. then you'll get the most value for your dollar. maybe you're a bass and dynamics freak in which case totally ignore anything i say. LOL try to go out and listen to some gear too. get some listening practice. |
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New member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 4 Registered: Aug-05 | with the maggies I have a primaluna one intergrated that clearly rocks,,especially live dvd's ,, peace |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 306 Registered: Mar-04 | hey... vince i'm lusting after MMGs and am thinking of getting my 25wpc (50wpc equivalent) NAD reciever fixed because it can do 4 ohms wher my onkyo won't. i know that maggies are power hungry and that they're recommended for 100wpc minimum, but i don't ever listen at full volume. even with my tiny NHT superzeros, i never push my 55wpc onkyo past 45 (40 usually) out of a possible 68. are maggies listenable at low volume levels? i'm thinking that their speed and detail would be even more of a benefit for low level listening. i don't have the heart to go back to my local shop that sells maggies to hear for myself when i intend to get MMGs which are mail order only. the shop's MG12s blew me away though. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1599 Registered: Feb-05 | MMG's aren't nearly as good as the MG12. I know I've owned both. The MMG's are listenable at low volumes but you still need a whole bunch of power to put the wind in their sails regardless of the volume. I finally decided that the compromises I had to make to own Maggies was not worth it and went back to dynamic loudspeakers and have not regretted it. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 847 Registered: Sep-04 | budget minded, Nobody in their right mind listens at full volume (well, nobody who's not deaf). The reason for the quoted 100w/ch is to allow for the current draw of the awkward load. At relatively low volume you can still run out of steam if the load is awkward enough. I don't know the MMGs, but from what I've read they need a bit more than your 25w/ch NAD can cope with, irrespective of how good it is. Incidentally 45 out of a possible 68 is pretty high, so it's more than likely that your amp would run out of steam. Sorry, Frank. |
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New member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 6 Registered: Aug-05 | mmgs guy can adapt ,,just bring your amp back to store and hear for yourself,,maggies love tubes though,,I had a 25 watt intergrated for sale on ebay for 550 and it would easily drive the mmg,,but primaluna on audiogon you may find for under 900,,you'll love .. nad i have in home theater is 80 watts ,,and it drives them really well,,not sure about 25 watts though solid state,,hey art ,,which dynamic speakers did you go back to,,i like focus audio right now ,,but my maggies do so many things well with tubes,,and with the primaluna low level sound is awesome,, peace |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 323 Registered: Mar-04 | i've kind of given some consideration to norh 18wpc single ended tube amps with maggies as single ended is supposed to kick butt in the midrange which is also a maggie trait and are the best at imaging which was something that the maggies couldn't do anywhere near as well as my tiny superzeros can. i'm no longer an imaging freak. maggies are just so fast and coherent (and have tons of realistic "in room presence") that they sound incredibly realistic even if you can't precisely place every instrument within a centimeter. LOL i STILL think i'd prefer MMGs because they're rated for 2k more treble extension for anything under the 3.6 price range (thought the MG12s were just slightly polite) and because as the smallest model, they would seem to image better. the problem remains amplification. i'm still trying to find out how IRD 100w (200w 4 ohm) monoblocks fare as they've gotten some great word of mouth. make note... that my NHT superzeros are tiny inefficient speakers to begin with, and my onkyo reciever is only 55wpc rated which is really about what the NAD is rated after 3dB headroom is factored. i'm guessing that each notch in my onkyo's volume = about 1dB, so i'm roughly 28dB below my amp's potential. that equals alot of headroom by my math. i only listen at about "loud talking" volumes. heck... i might not even be breaking the 1 watt barrier. |
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Bronze Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 14 Registered: Aug-05 | wow guy,,you really mess with numbers guy,,i say try the mmg's ,,even if you can consider the tubes you say,,buy used here,,and what you don't like you can sell quickly here,,ird are they solid state,monoblocks I assume,,i would then try an inexpensive tube pre to match for beauty midrange,, try audiogon.com for used gear.. peace |
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Bronze Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 15 Registered: Aug-05 | I would go with my first amp choice here,,wait till you can afford it,primaluna one check reviews here http://www.upscaleaudio.com/view_category.asp?cat=36 sell your gear ,,amps,,and buy used ,,i did ,,and low level dynamics and tube magic with maggies really smokes box speakers,,planars are not speakers,,they are musicians standing right beside you in your room........he..he |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 325 Registered: Mar-04 | i'm not at all keen on "trial and error" upgrades. i want to keep whatever i get forever. i love my superzeros, but they can't compete with maggie's top to bottom speed, coherency and neutrality. if MMGs sound reasonably close to MG12s (which i've read all maggies pretty much do except in bass extension) then i expect that MMGs could be speakers that i'd be happy with for the rest of my life. look at my handle... "budget minded: cheapskate" i don't like the idea of wasting money one bit. i want to get it right the first time. i'm quite sure that MMGs are exactly what i'm looking for, but i'd like to already have the "perfect AFFORDABLE" amp on hand when i test drive them with the plan of keeping them. i wish i knew how good maggies are at low level listening. do they need alot of power to "open up"? that may be why i'm not keen on my zeros anymore... i never give them any juice. as detailed as the MG12s i listened to were full tilt, i would think that they'd breathe much life into my system at the lower volumes i listen to. i never go into loud territory. i never listen so loud that one couldn't hold a normal conversation. i definately agree that, at least at volume, maggies totally dissapear and sound like real vocals, pianos etc., but i'm not going to totally sell my gear either. i STILL want surround sound for movies. IDEALLY, i'd own a killer surround reciever (or preamp... but that = $$$) to swap to MMG (the cheaper one driver units) doing surround duty in full dipole mode with full range MMGs as mains. the 1st step has to be integrating a single pair into my system without breaking the bank. i was thinking of seperate 2 channel and 5 channel systems to start until i integrate maggies into my video which i can't do without turning my onkyo into a mushroom cloud. LOL |
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Bronze Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 19 Registered: Aug-05 | at low level i was just listening to patricia barber live on dvd from her website [purchased] and i have to say with my intergrated tube amp stated above ,,the low level; dynamics with my maggies nearly blew me away,, 2 channel intergrated on its own for this ,,but in surround mode i use the pre out on my surround reciever[nad] hook up the amp to drive my front 2 maggies and my reciever drives the rest of my maggies,,all i have to do is switch amp to aux and voila,,i am set 5.1 does your onkyo have pre out for front spk.. anyways if i were you i would get the mmg's ,,one always has that itch in the back of ones mind if you don't peace |
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Bronze Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 20 Registered: Aug-05 | by the way if you get the amp i stated above with the mmg's ,,you won't be changing for a long time ,,i won't change anytime soon.. or this one will do too cheaper,,built from similar design but for 5.1 you would need a reciever with pre outs,,maggies really love tubes,,you think it sounds live now wait till you here them with tubes,,i am with both 2 channel and 5.1 |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 329 Registered: Mar-04 | i don't think i'd EVER feel inclined to upgrade if i got maggies. like i've said before... i liked $1200 MG12s on simlilarly priced gear better than $20,000 B&Ws on $$$ mcintosh gear. no, my onkyo DOESN'T have pre outs, but my NAD does. if you're saying that maggies are just as detailed at lower levels than they are at higher ones, then it sounds like it would be worth spending $100 to get my NAD running again. at 50wpc real world, it's only 3dB below recommended power, and i have no intention of listening at volume. obviously, i'd like to get rid of the NAD eventually as i'm not keen on it's sound, but just to get started out, it can handle 4 ohms safely and would be my cheapest route to start out with. even before i try MMGs (i want to sooo bad! LOL) i could put the NAD back as my sub amp for now and get rid of the junky old radioshack integrated i'm using with it's totally trashed controls. eventually, i'd like a full maggie surround system, but i'm looking to get there in little steps. i'd even considered using speaker to line level step down resistors to turn my onkyo into a preamp, but that isn't the most hi-fi solution in the world... 2 stages of preamp and amp. i could also use my paradigm x-over as a preamp as it has nice s/n ratios, but it won't send to mains at full range. 50Hz, 80Hz & 100Hz i think. i'd like to get rid of my sub. i like maggie lightning fast detailed bass and MMGs are only 5Hz higher rolled off than MG12s which were more than adequate for my tastes. thanks for your feedback vince. i'm taking my NAD in soon and trying MMGs soon after. planars have spoiled me for box speakers. LOL the thing i especially like about MMGs is that they are rated for 2KHz more treble extension than any maggies until you get to $4000 3.6s. if i thought there were anything wrong with MG12s, it would be that they could stand a more aggressive treble. |
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Bronze Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 21 Registered: Aug-05 | so bm when do you think this grand next step to the mmg.s occur? anytime soon,,my first step i did was get the maggies to colpement my room with the nad,,and it still sounded like magic,, its afetr that i mated it with a tube intergrated through the nad and amp on its own that the maggies truly blew me away.. all i am saying bm is when purchasing the mmgs listen to the mmg12 with a tube match in the store for yourself.. you'll see.. later |
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Bronze Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 22 Registered: Aug-05 | excuse the bad grammer ,,getting late bro... |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 333 Registered: Mar-04 | first i'll get my NAD reciever fixed so i'll have amplification ready to handle 4 ohms. after that, i guess it's just a matter of time dealing with maggie backorders. that, and the fact that i get distracted with spur of the moment purchases alot. i have no idea when it'll all come together, but the biggest stumbling block up till now was sweating amplification. who knows, i might even find the NAD liveable with maggies which surely have more treble speed and clarity than my superzero softdomes. i'll make a mental note to post a sound review once i get it all together. i'll have to mod my pin connector monster cables too. time to get the soldering iron out. |
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Bronze Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 23 Registered: Aug-05 | he he ,,bm forget monster cables ,,at least cheap audioquest,, man you should know.. later |
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Silver Member Username: CheapskatePost Number: 351 Registered: Mar-04 | i wasn't going by reviews. i was going by the best cable that was available in my town as in "right now". it was either that, or $150 cables (not me not ever) at the local salon. forget $40 audioquest... acoustic research makes a nice $12 cable. there are probably other great bargains out there. i've never really taken great interest in the cable subculture. alot of it is voodoo mumbo jumbo... like degmagnetizing CDs. LOL oh don't get me started on that one. LOL i got some awesome heavy duty generic interconnects that were every bit as good as the monsters and that gripped so tight, i could drag my DVD changer with them LOL. the monsters made a slight improvement over the factory stocks, but the 10 gauge monster speaker wire really made a difference. i'm not going to the salon and handing $250 over for that either. the next time i need speaker cable, i'm getting some cheap 12 guage OFC and my soldering gun heated up. LOL i'd rather put my time and energy into sources and destinations. interconnect and tweak of the week cults just aren't my thing. maybe it will make more of a difference when i have more revealing gear. |
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Bronze Member Username: Vm8444Post Number: 24 Registered: Aug-05 | yes on the last point,,peace |