Why arent the harman kardons thx certified?

 

Bronze Member
Username: Iamdickie

Post Number: 17
Registered: Jun-05
why arent the harman kardons thx certified?
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

The Land Dow...

Post Number: 1927
Registered: Aug-04
Because they're not certified does mean some models wouldn't pass the criteria needed for a THX label. Maybe they just don't see the value in adding the extra cost to their units to pay for certification.
 

Silver Member
Username: Johnny

Missouri

Post Number: 540
Registered: Dec-03
Whenever a brand wants to become THX certified, they have to pay a fee to do so. My guess would be that HK simply didn't want to pay this fee. NAD is another one that is in the same category. With the quality of their products, neither brand should have any trouble becoming THX Certified (their are much worse receivers who are THX certified), so this leads me to believe that the issue came down to money.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 3942
Registered: May-04


And whether THX even means anything to the person who is not going fully THX from source to screen. A THX certified receiver with non THX components will not get you THX performance in most cases. Besides what does THX actually mean in an amplifier? That it can maintain 115dB SPL on a continuous basis when used with THX certified speakers is the essence of the certification. Is that something you really want to pay additional money to do? Couldn't you be happy saving $300 and playing at 114dB?




 

New member
Username: Thunder18

Post Number: 6
Registered: Jul-05
There are a couple of worthwhile test done by THX. One that I feel is probably important is the ability to drive speaker down to 3.2 ohms. My current receiver won't drive anything less than 8 ohms which really reduces my speaker shopping list :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4355
Registered: May-04


The ability to drive low impedance loads is not, however, restricted to THX certified products. As a general rule of thumb, HK can handle low impedance loads as well or better than its competitors.




 

Gvenk
Unregistered guest
The fee to be paid for THX certification is not a barrier for NAD or H/K or any other manufacturer.

However, there are several reasons why manufacturers may not want to (other than egotistical ones)

Unlike units built after the THX certification was defined and designed for it, not all of their equipment would necessarily pass every one of the tests. This is not to imply that their equipment is unsuitable for H/T use, just that the design goals were different from what the certification is about. If a manufacturer has some that can pass the test and some that don't then it is a huge marketing problem of the ones that cannot be because the perception will be that they are not good enough and so it will eat into the sales of such units. They would much prefer not to certify any of them if they have a good enough reputation.

Note that THX certifies by quantitative performance not qualitative perception so a non THX one can sound better than a THX certified one. All that THX certification looks for is that the content is delivered to the speakers in a reasonable proportion without some artificial "clipping" or "hiding" or introduction of excessive distortion.
 

Unregistered guest
Kudos to Gvenk's rational response.

NAD does produce the THX certified S170i preamp and S270 power amp; apparently it's not an issue depending upon whether or not NAD opts to meet the stringent THX guidelines on their other products. Go figure.

H/K, by published tests, will drive 4 ohms and maintains the power to do so. Yet, their manual/service manual only rates power into 8 ohms as is also stated on the back of the AVR.

I may not be the brightest person in the world, but if I was heading H/K's Marketing Department, I would know darn well that driving 4 ohms (and 6) is a concern of many, and gee, I would sell alot more AVR units if it was confirmed accordingly. Or, maybe, the design engineers are not communicating the facts persuasively to the marketing gurus. If that's the case, then H/K is running an awfully inept Business Model. Or, maybe, the amps do spec out running 4 ohm loads, but driving this constant over a 2 year period just won't cut it.

Also, H/K has no problem with a marginally functional HDCD license and, so far, does scoff THX.

Many people simply have a predisposed prejudice against any license developed and owned by any large and successful company. Whether it provides a benefit or not, they don't like it because of the owner. Now, that's a model of logic.

No, H/K and NAD just don't like American Graffiti or Star Wars.

 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4361
Registered: May-04


Probably the bean counters and lawyers have told the marketing and engineering departments of HK the amount of repairs will go up if they state the amp will drive four Ohm loads. Most people don't realize a four Ohm load may dip well below that point. By playing a "four Ohm" speaker at extremem volumes, many amps can be damaged. By not stating the ability to drive four Ohm loads, HK can save some money on constant repairs and irate customers. My experience with HK indicates they are a reasonable company that will go farther than many other companies to satisfy a customer. But they have no control over how their product will be used. A little precaution goes a long way toward resolving sticky situations. Most people that have looked long enough and hard enough to have an idea what they are buying will know HK will typically drive four Ohm loads and will typically sound as good as a comparably priced THX certified product.




 

Unregistered guest
I think we both know that my Business Model litany on H/K was partly in jest. It is also partly pointed in that a Company of that substance cannot/does not/will not verify 6/4/2 ohm capabilities. H/K is either unsophisticated in marketing their AVR's in a very competitive segment and emphasizing of all their products features/benefits to sell more product or, in fact, does not drive 4 ohms over an extended period of time - for the reasons which you mentioned.

My 2 week home test with 4 ohm speakers would support the latter. This was a mid-line HK525; the unit was placed in open ventilation on top of the stereo cabinet. I realize they run warm, this heated to hot within 2 minutes. Could be just this unique Mid-West environment and run perfectly well in California, but I was not impressed or comfortable with that inferno on my cabinet.

Anyway, H/K's market share is on the small side, so is NAD's; so, maybe they could boost sales with THX, suggestions from not so bright people or any other brainstorms that marketing gurus are so well compensated for to come up with.

Unlike Sumner Redstone at 82, I'm not that bright, not a billionare; do have a pretty girl on my arm and so does he.
 

Lex vs. Kingpin
Unregistered guest
T omlinson H olman's e X periment - THX, interesting subject... Within a week I'll buy my first receiver, but now I am in the process of continuous forum reading!

I think I'll get a pioneer 1015. Being THX certified is definitely pushing me towards that receiver.

Some quotations from John Dahl - source: http://www.audioholics.com/FAQs/THXp1.html

To achieve THX Certification, home theatre products must meet or exceed our performance requirements under "normal" playback functions. For receivers and controllers, we also add patented post-processing features such as ReEQ, Timbre Matching, Adaptive Decorrelation, Adaptive Speaker Array and Boundary Gain Compensation. When a product switches video, we test it to guarantee that it does not degrade the signal. If a manufacturer claims that their product can switch HD, we test that, otherwise we test it for SD signals. THX Ltd. does not test for product longevity and we do not test "custom" or "DSP" modes such as Cathedral, Sports and room compensation.

All of our electronic specifications are what would be described as "good engineering practices." Taken one at time, none of our specs are too difficult to achieve by the manufacturer.

Today, THX Ltd. provides products and services that provide consumers with an experience "as the director intended."

Every THX Certified component is guaranteed to add to a system's ability to accurately present movies the way they were mixed by the filmmaker on the dubbing stage. Any piece of certified gear works perfectly well when used with non-certified gear. An image I like is one of a set of audio video windows between the consumer and the director sitting in the dubbing stage experiencing his finished work. Our job is to ensure each window in the chain is completely transparent.

The consumer experiences the work exactly as it was created. Some would say that their system is "better." We would say that a system can't present the content better than how the artist intended.

And he is also talking about spending 120-200+ hours for different tests before they certified the product.

As a customer I like the idea! Why H/K doesn't want to get certified - even relatively cheap 1015 does?

Perhaps many of you will disagree, however as an engineer, I believe this type of benchmarks have much more solid grounds than believing in pure brand loyalty. H/K is a GOOD! - doesn't require any certification, but why?

I think we should talk about the philosophy behind this benchmarks but not limited to THX...

Just my $0.02...
 

Gvenk
Unregistered guest
I don't think the issue is one of brand loyalty.

As I had posted in another thread, as a musician, I would like the audio system to faithfully reproduce exactly what was recorded, nothing more, nothing less and in that context I completely agree with the sentiments of THX that the system be able to reproduce exactly as the Director intended.

The issue then boils down to ensuring how best that ideal can be approximated (it cannot be reached unless you actually build a cinema theater in your house). THX has identified a number of things that they believe will ensure this.

It is relatively easy to design and a build a system solely to pass the THX tests (and this is what most cheap systems will tend to do) and this is actually a good thing because it will ensure that there is a certain minimum capabilities (if not in sound quality) that is maintained by such systems since typically they don't spend a lot of money in the engineering of the product to excel in the reproduction.

But as we know from audio systems of the past 50 years, all designs are compromises and the other thread in this message board on NAD hissing is actually a very good example of the problems with something like the THX certification.

To see this problem clearly, let us hypothetically assume that there was an industry certification created that simply said, the audible hiss of any amp at idle (with no input signal) should be less than X. If I were to design a cheap component to certify to that standard, I would simply put a muting circuit that sensed when there was no input signal and muted the output completely.

Now, one might ask why NADs, H/Ks of this world wouldn't want to get certified to that hiss standard as it seems like a reasonable standard. The problem, of course, is that introducing such muting circuits results in a significant impact on the reproduction quality (e.g., dynamics when it cuts in and out based on the nature of the input content, isolation issues between the muting circuit and the signal path, additional components in the signal path, etc.). So while it is possible to design a system to certify to the hissing standard very easily, it is much more complicated to design to it AND maintain the sound quality that good components are renown for. The cheap pioneer that you mention has done the equivalent of adding a simple muting circuit. If it took them 120-200+ hours for testing, it might take a year or two for NADs or H/Ks to do a design that preserves the integrity of the sound that they have managed to achieve and also pass THX certification. Pioneer doesn't have that problem.

Having said that, I believe the major boutique audio manufacturers are woefully lacking when it comes to video and the issues that a video experience might require in a component. They all seem to think of video as a necessary additional feature of the a/v receiver designed for music rather than realize that a H/T system is all about video with audio to support that experience. In this regard, some of the THX certification metrics are a good thing.
 

John McA
Unregistered guest
Can I ask a silly question (and perhaps in the wrong forum), what is the benefit of a 4 ohm speaker? Why don't they make all speakers so that amplifiers can efficiently drive them?
 

Silver Member
Username: Dmwiley

Post Number: 886
Registered: Feb-05
The best sources for an answer to the original post would be HK and THX. Every thing else is speculation at best.
 

Gvenk
Unregistered guest
On why 4-ohm? The goal of a speaker is to get excellent sound reproduction and for this people have many different engineering designs (because they are all compromises and there is no one good solution). Each engineering design has its own charactersitics based on the material and components (ribbons, magnets, coils, etc.) and the efficiency of conversion from electrical signal to sound is very inefficient and varies. For example, the components for driving a large set of planar ribbons will have very different curent requirements than for driving large cones.

What you will find is that speakers at the lower price end are typically designed with large compromises in the sound quality but designed to be mated with most amplifies/receivers in the low-end which requires them to make them as efficient as they can.

At the high-end when speaker manufacturers can assume that their speakers will be driven by high-end amps, they can afford to just concentrate on the sound reproduction rather than the efficiency and not make any compromises in sound quality because of the latter.

Same reason why some cars give 20MPG while some cars give 30mpg.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 4372
Registered: May-04


McA - It would be better to ask that question in a separate thread. The answer involves more than a few sentences.
 

John McA
Unregistered guest
Thanks, Gvenk. That answers my question. Jan, I am not sure I need to know much more than that, but I would be happy to start up a thread for those who are interested.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rikmeister

Hometown, Pa Usa

Post Number: 17
Registered: Jun-05
i am not worried about thx certification just like i am not worried about having a 5000.00 rolex that is cosc certified. when in fact some none certified keep better and more accurate time. just a way to spend more of your hard earned money for a paper certificate. just because you have a college sheepskin does not make you smarter. I have many people i can point to to attest this fact. I would rather have better sound for less money .
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