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New member Username: GuygadoisPost Number: 1 Registered: Apr-05 | Hello all. I received two quotes for installing a speakers in my home. I look to have a 5.1 system in the family room but plan on listening to music 60% of the time and 40% of the time listening to movies/tv on the plasma. I am also having speakers and volume controls installed in the dining room and living room. Here are the two proposals. Does anyone have any opinions on which one would be better suited for me? Proposal #1 - Klipsch Reference - Bookshelf RB25 - Subwoof RW8 - Center RC25 - Surround rears R3650c - Speakers in living room and dining room - CS650r - Wire with 16 gauge wire Proposal #2 Paradigm - Bookshelf Studio 20 - Subwoof 2100 - Center cc450 - Surround rears AMS-100r - Speakers in living room - CS-80r - Dining room - CS-50r 14 gauge wiring I would love to hear some opinions on the above. Thank you much. Guy |
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Silver Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 495 Registered: Jan-05 | Go with the one that's the best $$ value and sounds the best. Only you can be the judge. |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 351 Registered: Feb-04 | Hmmm. Lower end of the Reference series pretty much on both sides then. If you are in Canada, you'd probably get better value with Paradigm. If you are in the USA, you'd probably get better value with Klipsch. Both they sound different. I'd be surprised if you didn't prefer the sound of one versus the other if you auditioned them. Have you? |
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New member Username: GuygadoisPost Number: 2 Registered: Apr-05 | I have owned Paradigm in the past (and Energy) and have always liked them. I have yet to hear either one of these sets primarily because I live in a rural area and it makes finding someone to have them in stock ready to listen to. By the way I listen to primarily adult contemporary and jazz music via a Squeezebox (ripped at lossless rates). |
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Silver Member Username: Edster922Abubala, Ababala The Occupation Post Number: 109 Registered: Mar-05 | Personally I find Klipsch bright, so I'd take the Paradigms in a heartbeat. Given your musical tastes though I think you'd be very happy with Ascend Acoustics' speakers, plus save a ton of money. Do a Google search for them and you'll see tons of glowing reviews by both pros and consumers. (ascendacoustics.com) |
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jimvm Unregistered guest | I'd go with the Paradigm setup solely on the strength of the mains. The Studio 20's are amazing speakers for their size and price. But I must admit that I'm a Paradigm Studio 20 owner and do not particularly like the brightness of Klipsch speakers. Also, I think you're getting a better sub with the PW-2100. And, all things being equal, 14 ga. wire is better than 16 ga. A suggestion -- if you go with Paradigms, you should go with the SA series in-ceiling speakers; their drivers will match up better with the Studio series mains and center (which, by the way, is CC-470, not 450). |
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Bronze Member Username: ClaudermilkPost Number: 71 Registered: Sep-04 | I'll weigh in with edster and jimvm. I love my Studio 20's. Don't recall what Klipsch I auditioned, but IMHO the Paradigms blew them away. |
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mauimusicman Unregistered guest | If you want a real speaker, the GMA Europa is the best you can buy for under 4k. They are time/phase aligned putting them in a class ahead of Paradigm. They also have resonance free cast marble cabinets, and pure silver internal wiring. You can go with Paradigm or Klipsch, but you wont really be hearing what the artist intended. For reviews check out audiogon and 6moons.com |
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jimvm Unregistered guest | Maui - you need to re-read the threadstarter's question. He asked which of the two proposals he listed would be better. He did not ask for suggestions regarding other speaker setups. |
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mauimusicman Unregistered guest | If you saw someone eating dog poo, would you just let them jimvm? |
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jimvm Unregistered guest | Probably, if they looked like they were enjoying it. |
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mauimusicman Unregistered guest | Fortunately for you, I wont let that happen. |
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jimvm Unregistered guest | I'm so lucky! Please spare me. Like I've said before, you'd have much better success getting people to give GMA's a chance if you'd stop trashing other speakers. You may be knowledgeable about speakers but you obviously have no clue about dealing with people. |
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Bronze Member Username: VoriandPost Number: 14 Registered: Feb-05 | I am partial to the Paradigms. I too feel the klipsch are very bright. Focal JMLabs and Paradigm are my favorite companies for speakers. |
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jimvm Unregistered guest | Guy - I apologize for digressing; I did not intend to take your thread in a different direction. |
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schouse13 Unregistered guest | I have the Klipsch RB 25 system which is very similar to what you are looking at. I have been very pleased with the system thus far. The horn loaded tweeters are crystal clear and sound even better at higher volumes. These speakers are very efficient and need little power to push because of the horns. As for being too bright, it all depends on your receiver. I chose a Marantz receiver and it sounds very nice. I am not familiar with Paradigm, but I understand it too is a very good speaker. Good luck in whatever you choose. |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 354 Registered: Feb-04 | Listen to them forr yourself before accepting from others that Klipsch are too bright. To each his own. I don't know the Reference series but some people say the same about the Heritage series and I love them... (I've already said they sound different! :-) |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 355 Registered: Feb-04 | As for the sub, get a Hsu or SVS instead for a better sub for less cash. There's no need to timbre match it as you do with the other speakers. |
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New member Username: NossusCT Post Number: 7 Registered: Nov-04 | What amp/receiver do you plan on using? Often, as in schouse13's case, a certain speaker matches well with a receiver. The warm sound of a Marantz receiver, for example, pairs better with the bright sound of Klipsch speakers than a Yamaha receiver would. I agree with others, that, if possible, you get a pair in your living room or at least visit a store for a listen to decide for yourself. If possible, bring your receiver with you to the store if they don't carry the make/model. |
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New member Username: Max190Maryland Heights, Missouri US Post Number: 7 Registered: Apr-05 | Guy, Only you can decide which are better suited to your needs. I have one question though, why are you running 16 ga for #1, and 14ga for #2? |
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Bronze Member Username: Divin11112000Michigan Post Number: 28 Registered: Dec-04 | If you like the forward sound (picture being in the rain with the wind blowing in your face) you'll probably like the Klipsch. I have the Rf35's and love them. I thought the rf25's didn't have enough bass. Not sure how they compare to the RB25's. Although best bet would be to listen for yourself, everyone has different tastes. |
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New member Username: GuygadoisPost Number: 3 Registered: Apr-05 | Thanks to all for your responses - well almost all :-) Receiver: Proposal #1 has spec'd out a Harmon Kardon AVR335 while #2 has a Denon AVR 2805. Note that Proposal #1 seems to be much more reasonable in price than #2. I also considered swapping out the AMS-100r for the SA10r but not sure if it is worth the extra $200. How much are the rear speakers used when listening to audio? How about movies? I guess it depends on what you are listening too and your settings but I am just not sure if it is worth the extra money. Input? As for wiring, I have decided to do that part myself since all the walls are open now and it should be easy. I can either do 14 or 16 guage. Any reason why I need to go to 14? The max distance to my dining room and living room speakers is 60 feet (they are the lowest quality paradigm in ceiling). Guy |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 371 Registered: Feb-04 | As for wiring... Any reason why I need to go to 14? Absolutely... because your wall are open! This is your one chance to get it right easily! :-) Get some no-name 14 or even 12 AWG wire from a discount electronics parts store and use that. I suppose I should also tell you that wire you run through walls should be rated for in-wall use for fire codes. |
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New member Username: MauimusicmanPost Number: 1 Registered: Apr-05 | Since we are talking lower end speakers here, this should suffice. http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=products&content_id=2&pagestring=Speaker& product_id=17 M.Musicman Ph.D. Musicology (Prince Style) |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 373 Registered: Feb-04 | Guy, Don't listen to (real or imposter?) maui. You don't need to spend $300 to wire your ceiling speakers! I was talking about a 100-foot $25 spool of 12 AWG! |
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New member Username: MauimusicmanPost Number: 2 Registered: Apr-05 | Peter, just because you are unable to hear the differences between regular 12 gauge wire and something as fine as Cardas doesnt mean Guy is afflicted with the same disability. M.Musicman Ph.D. Musicology (Prince Style) |
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New member Username: GuygadoisPost Number: 4 Registered: Apr-05 | thank Peter for keeping the discussion focused. I was looking at 14 gauge 500 foot spool at home depot for $79. |
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Silver Member Username: Stealth_cDublin, CA USA Post Number: 171 Registered: Jan-05 | For high end audio applications, some speaker makers state an impedance of 0.1 ohm for the speaker wire or less. To the best of my knowledge that is about 20 feet worth of 14 gauge wiring. So for any length 20 feet and under, 14 gauge will definately suffice and give high quality sound. You could probably even double the length without noting a real difference, but YMMV. As for the 60 foot run, again, you may note a difference with 12 gauge, you may not. |
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Silver Member Username: Stealth_cDublin, CA USA Post Number: 172 Registered: Jan-05 | I should probably reword that to say 20 feet of 14 gauge or less with probably suffice, not definately. Some people here have expensive taste after all. |
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Bronze Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 89 Registered: Feb-05 | Actually, Stealth the equalivalent DCR for 14AWG is about 2Ohms per thousand feet so the actual resistance for 20' of 14AWG would be approximately .04 Ohms. The home depot zipcord is a good buy, but you might also want to check Lowes if you have one in your area. The Lowes in my area has a 250' spool of 12AWG for $50!-a very good buy. Forget about the Cardas high end snake-oil BS, you won't be needing that. From what I saw it has a higher capicitance than zipcord anyway. E.Ramsey |
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Silver Member Username: Stealth_cDublin, CA USA Post Number: 174 Registered: Jan-05 | Out of curiousity what is your source for that Eric? http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/speakercablere viewsfaceoff6.php In this test not even the 10 AWG cables reach a DCR of 2 milliohms. |
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Bronze Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 90 Registered: Feb-05 | Stealth I said 2 Ohms per 1000', not 2milliOhms. i believe this figure was taken from an article on the AWG table. If you do the simple math 2/1000'=.002*20'=.04Ohms E.Ramsey |
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Silver Member Username: Stealth_cDublin, CA USA Post Number: 175 Registered: Jan-05 | Let me clarify myself, 2 milliohms per foot, which is 2 ohms per 1000'. Also, on the same article, the Axiom 12AWG wire has a resistance of 3.34 milliohms per foot, for reference. To get 0.1 ohms with that cable you would need ~30 feet. http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/speakercablere viewsfaceoff.php |
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Bronze Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 91 Registered: Feb-05 | Also Stealth this table is based on resistance per foot. I am talking about 1000 feet of wire. E.Ramsey |
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Silver Member Username: Stealth_cDublin, CA USA Post Number: 176 Registered: Jan-05 | 1000 ft * 3.34 milliohms/ft = 3.34ohms? |
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Bronze Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 92 Registered: Feb-05 | That's correct Stealth perhaps the 2 Ohm figure from the 14AWG is a little lowballed. E.Ramsey |
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Silver Member Username: Stealth_cDublin, CA USA Post Number: 177 Registered: Jan-05 | If youre interested, the 20 foot thing came from the Roger Russell site where he states that he suggests wire be no more than 5% of the speakers impedance and at 2 ohms (5% of which being 0.1 ohms) he listed the 20 feet. |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 378 Registered: Feb-04 | The tolerable resistance of the wire depends on the resistance of the speaker. An 8-ohms load is less sensitive than a 4-ohm load (percentage-wise). For what it's worth, Roger Russell advocates keeping it under 5% of the speaker load, and recommends a maximum of 50 feet for 16 AWG assuming an 8-ohm load. Note that most 8-ohm speakers dip lower at certain frequencies, and note that you probably won't be able to tell the difference using background music on ceiling speakers (so don't worry too much about it). (Eric, 2 milliohms per foot adds up to 2 ohms per 1000 feet; aren't both of you saying the same thing?) |
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Bronze Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 93 Registered: Feb-05 | That sounds reasonable Stealth, I would trust Mr. Russell. E.Ramsey |
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Bronze Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 94 Registered: Feb-05 | Yes it would appear that way Peter. Let's not inject the speaker into the equation though, let's keep it to just purely wire resistance. |
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Bronze Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 95 Registered: Feb-05 | The lesson learned: Any reasonable length of speaker wire be no smaller than 16AWG Not to excede 1000' is inconsequential, from a resistance standpoint. E.Ramsey |
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Silver Member Username: Stealth_cDublin, CA USA Post Number: 178 Registered: Jan-05 | Its that dip in the speakers impedance which is why some manufacturers just say to keep wire resistance to 0.1 ohm (B&W for example). I believe specifically some Klipsch speakers are known for dipping into the 2 or 3 ohm range at some points. So if Guy has a run of over 20 feet in his main system, it "could" alter the response of his system slightly if he used 14 gauge wire. If he used 16 gauge wiring he would probably not want runs over 12 feet for his main system. |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 380 Registered: Feb-04 | Stealth, yes, I've heard the flagship of the Reference series, the RF7, dips to 3 ohms. Remember guys, this wire is for ceiling speakers. But yeah, with that sort of bulk buy I'd get 12 AWG for just a bit more. (My 100-feet spools of 12 AWG cost around C$25, or US$20. At that price, I don't go without it.) |
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Silver Member Username: Stealth_cDublin, CA USA Post Number: 179 Registered: Jan-05 | Either way, its food for thought. I thought he was going to wire the main system with 16 or 14 gauge stuff too though. Ohh well. |
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Silver Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 381 Registered: Feb-04 | You're right. But he's looking at 14 AWG, which is not too bad. A 500-foot spool may be overkill! :-) I'd instead go for 250 feet of 12 AWG for the same price if they had something like that instead. Can't go wrong with 12 AWG! :-) |
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Silver Member Username: Stealth_cDublin, CA USA Post Number: 180 Registered: Jan-05 | It has no WAF to speak of, but in wall it doesnt matter. |
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Bronze Member Username: EramseySouth carolina United States Post Number: 97 Registered: Feb-05 | You right Peter, I got a 100' spool for my surround speakers at a local electronics supply store for $30. 16AWG will work, 14 is fine but 12 is great and it's only pennies more on the dollar. E.Ramsey |
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Silver Member Username: DmwileyPost Number: 421 Registered: Feb-05 | Paul's advice (and any that is similar) is what makes sense. Any thing else is totally subjective and may or may not correspond with your lisetening skills and preferences. |