Why does revciever need phono input?

 

New member
Username: Meecha

Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2004
Hello all,
I have heard that in order to add a phono player to my reciever, I need to have a phono input on the reciever. Why cant I just put it in to auxillary or something like that. Why does there have to be a ground. I just have a phono player from the early 80's and it just has rca plugs coming out of it. Maybe only expensive phono players need a special input? I dunno, sorry Im just a newbie,

Thanks
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 171
Registered: 12-2003
The output from a moving magnet pick-up cartridge is very small compared to that of a CD-player, tuner etc.. If you connect to a standard input, like Aux, you might hear something, but will not get reasonable volumes. The output from a moving coil pick-up cartridge is even smaller.

So, if your receiver/amp does not have a dedicated phono input, you need a phono pre-amp to amplify the signal before you can give it to "Aux".

Grounding. Cartridges are low-voltage electromechnical devices and very susceptible to induction of a signal from electromagnetic fields. So you have to make sure the cartridge is not part of the route of the current to ground, otherwise you hear hum. Turntables have to be connected to the same ground as the amp to take the cartridge out of the path. You can usually just connect a wire between the turntable chassis and the amp chassis. An amp-receiver with phono input usually has a spade terminal to allow you to do this. If it does not, you can just connect a wire between the turntable/pickup ground and one of the screws holding the (metal) amp chassis together
 

Unregistered guest
I moved to the UK from Canada and took my Technics turntable with me. However, I lost my little static-wire and the Sony amp I bought here didn't have an input for one anyway. Howevver, I thought it would be OK as all UK electrical sockets are grounded and I was running the turntable off a transformer on a 3-pin trailing socket. However, the static hum was so bad I couldn't even turn up the volume on my records. I've just followed John A's advice above by connecting a piece of speaker-wire between the static-wire input on the turntable and a screw on the amp and it works brilliantly. Thanks! Many thanks!!
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 197
Registered: 12-2003
Thanks for the post, Ian.

The excellent UK three-pin sockets with universal main supply grounding (called "earthing" in UK) do not help this problem, as you have found. They may even make it worse - you might get LESS hum than your heard at first if you remove the mains earth temporarily. But what you have now done is to give the turntable and amp the same ground/earth relative to each other, so there is no current flowing between them. That is always the best solution, whether the mains supply is grounded/earthed or not.

It is a pleasure to be able to help!
 

Unregistered guest
hi!
can you please give me the definitions of the following things, please!

Turntable...
Torn Arm...
Cantiliver...
Stylus...
Cueing Level...
Counter Balance...
Anti Skating Control...
Speed selector Sweitches...
Strobe...
Pitch Control...
Mixer...
phono input...
line input...
mic input...
gain control...
up fader/channel fader...
equalisation....
cross fader...
channel....
channel input selector...
main output...
Booth output...
record output...
cue assign output...
cue level control...
cue and program control...
master level control...
Booth level control...
master balance control..
level meter...
level meter selecter switch...
channel mode...
upward mode...


thank you,bye for now.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 350
Registered: Dec-03
You need to do your own homework, as all this info is readily available online on a simple google search. If you need to know what a turntable or what a phono input is, you need to find another hobby:-)
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 440
Registered: Dec-03
Gregory is right, sihle. You ask much. You could also try a dictionary. Google will helpfully suggest "Did you mean: Cantilever", and you probably did. "Torn Arm" is distinctly off-topic unless you leave out the space, and even then it could just be a spelling mistake.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 354
Registered: Dec-03
In my dungeon Goth set-up maybe I should change the SME arm on my turntable for a "torn arm", with a hypodermic needle hanging out to play Monster Mash on my old 45's:-)
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 443
Registered: Dec-03
Bliss. Careful with the hypodermic. One slip and you could get cantihepatitis.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 356
Registered: Dec-03
True--and who would ever believe how I contracted Hepatitis C? I guess I won't get a new "torn arm", unless I have it installed at the hospital:-)
 

turbodog
Unregistered guest
Something I didn't see mentioned: Due to physical limitation in the size of the groove, and freq response limitations of early recording equipment, phono records are not recorded with 'flat' frequency response. Highs are boosted compared to lows during the record cutting process. So, to compensate for this there is a dramatic equalisation filter in all phono pre amps. 20 khz has nearly 40 dB less amplification than 40 Hz in a RIAA-spec phono preamp. Even if you didn't need the extra signal boost, if you plug a phono into the 'aux' input, you'll have very tinny sound with no bass.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 621
Registered: Dec-03
turbodog,

I never knew that, but I am quite sure you are correct, and it agrees with what remember hearing from my various systems over the years.

Thank you!
 

hokman
Unregistered guest
i have an old philips receiver with 8 track and a crappy broken turntable on top all in one machine. However this receiver only have aux and I want to connect my dual 510 to it. Can I take out that included turntable and attach the left and right wires that are connected to it to the dual turntable?
 

hokman
Unregistered guest
i have an old philips receiver with 8 track and a crappy broken turntable on top all in one machine. However this receiver only have aux and I want to connect my dual 510 to it. Can I take out that included turntable and attach the left and right wires that are connected to it to the dual turntable?
 

Jan Vigne
Unregistered guest
Probably not, the Philips piece more than likely had a ceramic cartridge and will not accept the input from a magnetic cartridge that would be used in the Dual. Try to identify the cartridge make and model.
 

Anonymous
 
I was recently hooking up my record player and the phon wire was not long enough. The wire itself comes straight out of the player, it does not plug in. Is it possible to lengthen this by cutting it and attching it to another audio wire? Is there another way to lengthen the phono wire?
Thanks
 

hokman
Unregistered guest
I'll install a audio technica at12e soon, is that ceramic or magnetic? yea, i think the philip's cartridge is fixed. And it makes noise when i put my finger on it.
 

bran
Unregistered guest
can someone suggest a good free phono-preamp design? preferably with pcb layout as im too lazy to plan out the schematic.
Im trying to hook up a turntable to an amp with no phono input.
 

rictom
Unregistered guest
I also have a phono I want to hook up to my new reciever that doesn't have a phono input. I still have my old receiver/preamp so I want to go from phono to old receiver, old receiver to what? in my new receiver? I have to ground the phono to the old receiver (lost the wire or something when moving the new receiver in)first I guess. Question is do I use rca jacks from the old receiver to what input on the new receiver?
Thanks
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1321
Registered: Dec-03
rictom,

As long as your old receiver/preamp has "preamp out" you will be OK. Any spare input stereo, analogue, to your new receiver will probably work fine - check the spec in the manual. You end up with two volume controls (I use my old NAD 1000 stereo pre-amp). Probably just leave the first at 12 o'clock or what used to be your normal listening level. A good pre-amp does not degrade the signal; it is just a source selector with a volume control and maybe some filters (best left off).
 

rictom
Unregistered guest
John: thanks for your info. My old receiver does not have a preamp out though. It only has phono in, aux in; tape rec, tape play, and speaker inputs. I figure I need to connect speaker wires to the speaker inputs on the old receiver and then with rca jacks on the other end of this cable plug into vcr2 or main or almost any other Input on the new receiver. Which I've tried but it's not working. I easily could be doing something wrong wiring wise or something. I'd like to find a straight forward 1 2 3 4 step program to do this right.
I can always go to radio shack and get a preamp I guess if I can't make this work.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1326
Registered: Dec-03
rictom,

A speaker output is a massively bigger signal than a pre-amp output - you could well blow the pre-amp input stage of your new receiver. The "headphones" output might just work OK; you would need a cable connecting a headphone jack to twin RCA plugs. You would need to be careful - start with the old receiver volume right down to zero, raising it by small increments, slowly and carefully, to hear what you can hear.

There are dedicated phono pre-amps and this would be the best way to go, really, missing out the old receiver completely. It really is too bad that phono inputs are not provided on some amps and receivers these days.
 

rictom
Unregistered guest
John: thanks for the quick reply. I think I will probably get the preamp. Checked online for Radio Shack and it's only $25 and that's worth it. I wouldn't want to do anything to wreck my new (though technically it's "last year's model") Yamaha rx v640 receiver of course!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1333
Registered: Dec-03
rictom,

Also consider NAD P(twice)-2 Phono Preamplifier. I have not tried it, but most people, and reviewers, agree that it does a great job at little cost. It is what I would consider if I did not already have a good pre-amp with a phono input.
 

New member
Username: Suspecterrain

Woodland, MI US

Post Number: 2
Registered: Jun-04
I used the $25 unit from Radio Shack before with a cheap shelf system; it worked, but they're priced right where they should be. A proper phono stage is worth at least 100 bucks.

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
You should try going from the turntable to the old reciever then use the "tape rec", which is tape out, to the tape in on your new reciever. You have to select phono to tape out as the source, if that is an option on your old reciever and tape in (or aux) on the new reciever. This gives the simplest signal path (no volume control in the path that has fluctuating voltage levels and can load the input improperly). If this doesn't work for you get an outboard pre amp.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1335
Registered: Dec-03
Jan is completely correct. I forgot that. You usually do not even need to select "Tape out" - the signal is there all the time, as a monitor for what the tape machine should be recording, if you have one (you do not need to).
 

Unregistered guest
This is a nice information board. I think I'll give it a shot. Being a minimalist, I'd like to get the least amount of equipment necessary to run my turntable. Why do all the recievers I see have to have 60 inputs and capability for video, CD, tape, aux, 20 speakers, etc. Isn't there a high-end/quality piece of equipment simply for running a turntable? I don't want to pay for all of that other stuff I don't need when all I want is somewhere between 400-700 watts and comparable speakers. Anybody with suggestions?
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Between 400 to 700 watts???!!! And just what are you going to do with that much power? Arc welding?
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1608
Registered: Dec-03
doosey,

Jan has a point. Surely you meant 40 to 70 Watts? Unless you have a very large room, amounting to a stadium, ballroom or banqueting hall.

A "receiver" was always multi-function, it was an intergrated amp incorporating a radio tuner. You have probably been looking at "Audio-Video" receivers, which have a whole lot more. They can still be "minimalist", but the temptation to go over the top with features is hard for makers to resist, they worry about their latest model not having something their competitors' has.

If you go to a good hifi dealer, you will still find plenty of "separates", they are also listed and advertised in HiFi magazines.
 

MikeyD
Unregistered guest
I don't think that 400+ watts of power is that unreasonable in a home setting, and a lot of power does not necessarily translate to high volume. Efficiency ratings vary a great deal in home speakers, a speaker with an 86 dB efficiency rating will require 4 times as much power to achieve the same volume as a speaker with 92 dB efficiency. Large amounts of power also virtually guarantee that you won't clip the amplifier, high powered amplifiers are actually easier on speakers than under powered amps. The downside of using high power amps is that they have a higher noise floor, if you listen to music with a lot of quiet passages this probably isn't for you.

In answer to doosey's question, for a really minimalist system you could run a phono preamp directly to the inputs of an amplifier as long as one or the other has a volume control. You probably won't get enough output from the phono stage to drive the amp to full power, but think of your 400 watt amp as a 100 watt amp with 6 dB of headroom.
 

Unregistered guest
Modern stereo (box with detached speakers) with only AUX (RCA) input.
Turntable with RCA out.
Good volume but distortion is occuring.
I know everyone says pre amp but with good levels and distortion is it possible that I need attenuation instead? impedence mismatch?
Thanks in advance for all advise.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 83
Registered: Sep-04
doosey,

Don't get hung up on power ratings. The important thing is how much current an amp can swing. You can get simple 2-channel amplifiers of very high quality from all sorts of makes and they can cost from $200 all the way to six figures. Many 2-channel amps have also stopped supplying a phono stage built in but there are still some that supply this as part of the amp. For example Rega supply their amplifiers with MM phono stage built in generally speaking.

With 2-channel amps, less is very often more. You get less features, some don't come with treble/bass controls, some don't even have a balance control (as with Rega) but the money saved on those extra bits is put into higher quality components, thus giving you better sound quality. A Rega Brio costs about $450, is only rated at about 40 watts/ch and can drive 4-ohm speakers like Dynaudio Audience 42's to good levels with very little trouble indeed.

If you decide on an amp without an internal phono stage, there are external phono stages that you can plug into any ordinary line input on an amp. A line input is one that expects a signal from something like a CD player, tuner (radio), tape deck, VCR or TV. Basically this is an input expecting a 2Volt signal. A moving magent cartridge typically generates only 2mV or so (1/1000th of the line input devices) and a moving coil cartridge only generates one tenth of that, and yet moving coils are considered higher quality than moving magnet generally speaking. All entry level turntables I've heard of are supplied with Moving Magnet cartridges.

Brent, it sounds to me like the input is too high for the amp. However, if the stereo says it's an AUX input, that should be more than capable of coping with whatever the turntable has to throw at it. Almost all turntables are supplied with 2 RCA jacks but this does not mean the turntable will supply a high enough signal. Most turntables simply provide the signal that the cartridge delivers. A very few turntables have an in-built phono stage and supply a line level input. We don't know what model your turntable is so we don't know what it's supplying to the stereo system.

Good levels of volume - is the volume pot all the way over when this happens? If, with good level of volume, you switch over to the CD player and play a CD is it much louder? If this is the case, the distortion you're hearing is because you're hearing what's on the vinyl rather than the proper form which is taken care of by the phono stage (see the RIAA curve discussion above). This would mean you'd need a phono stage between the turntable and the stereo system.

Regards,
Frank.
 

Anonymous
 
I have an old ('84) panasonic stereo and i want to hook up my guitar to it, but i can't get a sound. any suggestions?? thanks
 

Unregistered guest
I have a very similar problem to Brent's. I have a home-theater unit with no phono-in. I bought a $35 phono pre-amp but still got distortion. I replaced my high-output cartridge with a mid-output cartridge, but I still get distortion. Notably, when I hook up the TT to my integrated amp w/phono stage, I can still hear the output with the volume set to zero. So it would seem that the output is too high and the cartridge is not the culprit ($80 later, of course). The TT is an early Tech1200 with one pair of RCA's, and I have not noticed any pre-amp switch on its base. While it would seem a great reason to get a receiver with phono stage, what are my other option(s)? Using the int. amp is not an option.
thanks
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