Hey all! Been scanning this forum quite a bit and decided to ask a question.
So, I was planning to buy a setup of 2 12"IDMAX's when I get my first car. (Hoping to get a used 350z!) Powered by either a AQ1200D or AQ2200D. I am also open to a Sundown Amp suggestion, but I haven't looked into them yet seeing as I think Audioque is sufficient. I also wanted to get these subs in a ported box tuned to 25hz because I really want these to pound the lows. I was debating on getting the box tuned at 28hz though seeing as it would get loud while maintaining some lows. For reference: I listen to dubstep and was hoping to get like a 02,04 or 06 Z, and am holding off on advice for Amps and Boxes until I have a car.
However, now I hear Image Dynamics might not be making these anymore?! So my first reaction was to want to buy the 2 12's and just store them until I can get my car, but I decided to come on hear and ask for advice. So what do you guys think of my planned setup? I was hoping to really hit the lows and have nice SQL subs so I can have the sq I want while having them get loud. Say I get my car and these subs are no longer being made new, do you have suggestions for subs that are similar to this in SQL while hitting the lows? Or do you guys think I shouldn't worry about this and the IDMAX's will be available well into next year? An amazing deal has my eye on these ID's right now though... Just so you guys know, I also plan to check out local audio shops to further familiarize my self with subs and setups. And a sub I also looked into was the Fi Q, but I am certain with the IDMAX's as of now.
Ok Bo I recently did a comparison on a few outstanding subs, take a look:
All subs 4.7 cuft@28Hz
3 TC Sounds Epic 10" (white) Each sub on 500W RMS (1500W) 2 Fi Q 12" (green) Each sub on 1500W RMS (3000W) 1 SSA XCON 18" (yellow) Each sub on 1750W RMS (1750W) 2 iDMAX 12D4 V3 (orange) Each sub on 1000W RMS (2000W)
Wow, it's too bad I probably can't fit an 18 in the car! lol Thanks for the response man, I can now rest assured and not make an impulse buy on the ID's. haha It's just that around $270 each is too good to pass up! And I know I won't have to worry about this until the future, but i'm still wondering...am I going to need to do any upgrades to the car to support the 2200 amp? I'm assuming doing the big 3 is common sense, but i'm wondering if i'll need like an alternator upgrade or battery in the trunk etc. So many questions haha but i'm trying to learn all aspects of the sound system seeing as i've only been learning for maybe...3-4 days? lol
Yes and alt upgrade is a must. That amp needs around 200 amps on its own and your devices in the vehicle, such as ECM, PCM, wipers, blower motor, etc. will need (depending on vehicle) around 100-120. Capacitors are not worth the money and a second bat or two can only help with the supply of power. I would recommend a HO alt and bat. That amp makes great power but "to make great power, you need to supply great power. You could probably get away with stock but you will never see 2200 rms and the amp will get very hot trying to do so. Clipping could also result which in turn will damage the equipment. JMO
Okay, so i'll also need a High Output battery/alternator. Got it, had to do some quick Googling to figure out what HO meant. lol I guess i'll wait to get help on those until later(brands, models etc), but i'll look stuff up. And I have no idea what 0ga means, but i'm guessing it's what you will use to hook everything up? Thanks for the help so far Joe and Sin, i'm learning alot. haha I really want to get this set up right so my system can last and not worry about damaging the equipment through clipping and things like Sin mentioned.
Oh I got it now, the gauge refers to the size and you want maximum flow. haha So in the big 3 you use the 0ga, cool. So is this pretty much all there is to a system done right? Subs in a good box, powered by sufficient amp, big 3 upgraded car with upgraded battery and upgraded HO Alternator? Not sure if i'm missing anything, if I am let me know. If that's mostly everything what i'm left with is how i'm going to wire the subs. I want them to last and perform great so i'm thinking 2ohms, is that good? Or would 4ohms be the optimal route in my setup? Again, this is pretty much uncharted territory for me, but i'm trying to grasp it for a sweet system haha
Yeah good point, that's more along the lines I was getting at. Like what I listed is the basics, then from those you branch off. Was wondering if there was something in the big picture I was missing. haha So according to this it's better to get the D4 as opposed to the D2's then right? And yeah...i'm not sure this is going to be done 100% by myself lol Definitely would have to learn everything from the bottom up. I was hoping to find a good shop over the course of time and see how much it would run, and if it's too expensive I can always try and learn it. I mean i'm not sure I could do an alternator swap and I would have a LOT to learn on wiring everything correctly. I've never dealt with anything like this before. And i've been wondering...what are the benefits of different ohms besides the power the sub can recieve? I thought it had to do something like the lower the ohm the less quality power or something the sub was getting...and maybe that it caused heat issues? I read this on another forum and I want to make sure exactly what effect ohms have haha Like if it's smarter to run at a lower ohm just for more power to the sub.
Most amps above 1kW are rated at 1 ohm, if you intend to use 1 sub you pick a DVC 2 ohm and parallel to 1 ohm, if you are using two the DVC 4 ohm makes sense. If your amp is designed to work at 1 ohm nothing will happen to it as long as the power you give is solid, if it is not then it can overheat in serious cases, that includes bad connections. Also not all amplifiers are as efficient as others so you may get more heat on some of them AQs are very efficient. So you should not be concerned about any of that. Just the install has to be perfectly done.
Man Joe, thanks for all your help, I appreciate it! I will now shoot for Dual 4ohms. I'm glad I don't have to worry about the amp too just the install, and learning about all this is fun. So speaking of fun...I think it's time I stray away from set up really quick and ask a quick fun question: with this set up (besides great sound) can I expect to do things like piss off neighbors or set off the occasional car alarm? haha And running ported would you hear me down the block aways or not really? I mean, this isn't the goal by any means, but it's the icing on the cake if I feel like doing a demo. lol Just wondering because who wouldn't want to show off their amazing system...
Well, thats why it's all done for. Yes that setup will pretty much shake up your car, and will be enough to inflict some damage all around, no need to worry about that. Also worth reading is the following speaking of shake ups:
just so you know what you can look forward to, I am running 2 idmax 12's in a temp sealed box that is too small for them. they are getting 600wms each and get surprisingly loud. they hit very, very clean. I ran one 18" q prior and in my opinion they do sound better. I can't comment on low extension since the enclosure sucks at the moment, but it isn't half bad. I haven't found a track with dual bass drums that they haven't been able to keep up with. feeling every single individual hit still amazes me. keep in mind though, these are sq subs, so don't expect a ton of output. il let you know how things go when I up the power and put them in a ported enclosure.
Alright sweet guys, that's what I wanted to hear. haha And Eric I know these are sq subs but I believe they're also SQL so i'm going to be happy no matter what. If I wanted spl I could just get two of those subs, but I want sq with some loudness not straight up loudness. So Eric how do you plan on getting your box done? For me, I believe I need 2.5 cu. ft per sub so i'm guessing I would need a 5cu.ft box tuned at 25hz. I know this won't get as loud as a higher tuned box, but I want lows. Look forward to hearing your update in the future though!
So Joe, I should also plan a dynamat install in the car for better sound? If so, what places would you recommend...i'm thinking trunk and doors if I do it.
Dang Joe i'd appreciate that. And what do you mean by Vb and Fb? I've never come across those terms before. Once I know what that means hopefully I will know how to help the Fb unless you want to throw out a quick tip. And dang, I think this box will take up the whole trunk! haha Don't need one of those anyways haha
Vb = Net Volume of the box, this does not include displacements such as the port, wood thickness', and the sub itself. It is simply the volume of air inside the "chamber".
Fb = Box tuning frequency, this is a function of Net Volume, Equivalent Port Diameter, and Port Length; as you probably already know the tuning frequency plays a massive role in the frequency extension and general response of your system.
That being said, 25 Hz is crazy low, there is nearly ZERO musical content that low in the frequency spectrum, tuning at 28 Hz should suffice for just about anything you throw at those beasts... but hey if you want to do 25 Hz more power to you, if you find music with content that hits that low you will definitely blow people away with that setup.
Assuming you put a full 2kW to these bad boys you are going to be looking at a pretty large port and inturn a pretty huge box, id say between 5.25 and 6 cuft net. You should plan on the EXTERNAL gross volume of the box to be between 7.5-9 cuft.
Wow...this box is turning out to be huge! So basically i'm going to need to make sure a box of overall 9cuft can fit in the car(i'm thinking when you say net it means inside, while External means the actual box)...if it won't i'll just look for another car.(hatchback preferably) But yeah, I do plan on the full 2k. The amp and subs will support it so as long as I get a good HO Alternator I will definitely run them 1k each. And how can I find out if the music hits that low? I tried looking for a frequency analyzer to no avail. But I listen to dubstep and it pretty much revolves around deep bass lines and bass in general. And yes...i'm definitely planning to blow myself away with this setup when I first install it. haha
As far as finding music that hits that low, you do need a frequency analyzer or maybe a nice LOW tuned home theater system and a well trained ear or if you want to get fancy... some math/engineering CAD software that is able to preform Fast Fourier Transform on a sampled mp3 file. Mainly content that goes into the high twenties and low thirties is rap, some dubstep too. If you have any specific songs in question I would be glad to give them a listen and try to get you an answer.
One of the main reasons I suggest 28Hz tuning rather than 25Hz tuning is because of space. Given an equivalent Net box volume and port diameter, a lower tuned box is going to need a longer port and inturn the entire GROSS volume of the box will then end up being larger. The one problem with tuning a little higher is that you end up getting a bit peaky at a higher frequency, for example 40Hz may sound louder in a box tuned to 28Hz than a box tuned to 25Hz... ofcourse the transfer function (aka cabin gain) of the vehicle used will affect this aswell... trying to get a nice flat low extension can be a bit of a pain sometimes.
I was also going to suggest using aero-ports (like joe suggested) if space was an issue, typically if you can get your hands on flanged pipes to use as ports they will take up much less space than your slotted counterpart.
Just an FYI, in my car I run a pair Image Dynamics IDQ10v3's tuned to 30Hz on 1000 watts... sounds sexy and gets PLENTY loud for me. I can only imagine how a pair of 12" IDMAX's on 2000 watts would sound... brutal may be a good description.
Thanks for those Joe! And I have a quite unfortunate update: I went down to a car audio shop and found a guy with experience with 350z's today. I asked him about the setup I have here and he said good luck getting 2 12s in there...he also said that if I really wanted to get them in there I would need to make a "false floor" or something which involves taking out the spare tire and lowering the floor. He said that would run me about $600. The problem is there is the strut bar that seperates the front from the trunk which limits space. So basically I guess this hatch can only fit 2 10's good, but that's about it. And I really want the 12's so I guess I have to start looking at small SUVs(which he also said)...on a side note I also learned this car has 6 6.5 speakers I believe and that a HO Alt upgrade with 250 amps runs about $350 installed from another guy at another shop. (I might be able to install it myself though which should save some cash) This news really sucks though because I really want a hatch back 2 seater. haha So is there any questions I should maybe ask the guy about a custom enclosure, or is it time to look at new rides...(or maybe 10's? but that's at a desperate measure) I'm appreciating the help btw guys
I want to clear something up for you gr33n: The ohm rating of ur amp states the impedance of the outflow of elictricity from the amp that your amp can handle. A 1 ohm (mono block) amp is more efficient and will be stable freely pushing massive power with little impedance(resistance). If a mono block amp has 2 hookups and looks like 2 channels, it is merely another set of wire hookups to facilitate hooking up multiple speakers (such as 2x DVC 4 ohm subs= 1 ohm) because wiring in parallel, you halve the resistance of each sub (2ohm), then u add the other identicle speaker, it halves the resistance again to 1 ohm. A mono block amp is capable of pushing far higher ohm rating speakers (16), but the power will be reduced. A 4 ohm stabe amp can push 4 or more ohms. Any less and the amp is unstable and will fry. Think of ohms as the diameter of your arteries. If your arteries constrict (more ohms), your heart (amp) has to work harder to push the same amount of blood (watts) through your body (speaker's voicecoil)=(vc). If your arteries relax (lower ohms), your heart (amp) will push lotsa juice (juice) through the system (system). Ohms have no direct connection with sound quality.
Try this trick: google this:: 350z trunk or similar and go to images. Try to find one with a license plate visible. It is almost exactly 12" wide, so measure that then measure width of trunk, devide width of trunk by width of license plate to get your trunk width in feet. U can get height too. Then find a alot of pics to guesstimate the depth and find ur volume. Just try to guess on the small side everytime so when u get the final volume u will know that it is not wrongly too big. Cuz too small is ok, too big is unacceptable. U will figure it out. Or just googl internal storage dimensions. I would think u can fit at leat 8 cubes cuz my vw golf hatchback has 8.5 gross cubes at least. With 4 seats. I could fold down the back seats and get like 30 cubes haha.
Yea, I don't mean to discredit whoever it was you talked to about the 350z but in this case, I would suggest taking measurements yourself and estimating the usable space in the trunk. I have never seen the trunk size of a 350z in person but just from looking at the pictures on google, that guy was probably right.
If you are truly willing to switch to a different car and you want to stick with a pair of 12's, I would still suggest a hatchback, just one with a larger cargo volume.
EDIT: I found this article on howstuffworks.com http://auto.howstuffworks.com/nissan-350z-design11.htm basically it says the trunk volume of a 350z is about 6.8 cuft which would be enough for your average schmo installing a pair of 12's... just not enough for this specific install.
Hey Alonzo, I didn't catch your first post about the songs and stuff. I wish I could of found a frequency analyzer haha but I could think of a few songs if you wouldn't mind checking how low they go and how much bass they have: Datsik-Jenova Project, Datsik-Swagga, and Downlink-Ignition. Just to name a few. There are so many different types of dubstep, but these are bass heavy songs once the bass drops. You'll see what I mean...
And slackin...thanks for that explanation, it helped alot. Before I was thinking the higher the ohm the higher the quality of power. LOL Now I know that it's kind of like 0ga wire in the fact that it flows the most current easily. Just to throw out the best example I can.
And Joe thaks for your suggestion, I just may do that. As much as it pains me to ditch these subs...I think i'm limited on space and I don't want to get the subs and not be able to use them to their full potential. So the SSA XCON 15" now has my attention. The Q seems nice, but I do want more SPL and LOWS while maintaining SQ, and from what i've read the XCON fits that bill! But now I have a lot of research to do again...how many watts will maximize the XCON? It has to be more than 1k. And 4cuft at 26hz? 26hz...I like haha So Joe I think you may have switched my sub choice, seeing as the car will be too small.
So what trade offs am I looking at switching to the XCON? Like how good is it's spl and sq compared to the 2 IDMAX12s. And will it's lows compete with the 2 IDs? And just fyi I would basically want the same setup from the sub...ported, tuned at 26hz and putting out its max thermal Rating. Also...am I now looking at a new amp? AQ1200D perhaps, but if the XCON wants the AQ2200D i'm more than happy giving it that (I can't find a car more sexy than the Z at it's price point and I want to keep it haha)
I have only heard great things about the Xcon all over the web, for loud lows ( SQL if u will). Get a D2 it will wire to 1 ohm on the audioque 2200. Maybe turn gain down a hair, will keep from clipping and/or wasting power. U can factor this wattage drop into ur electrical upgrades needed. But it still needs upgrading. O and them Xcons r sexxxxxxyyyyyyy as helll! U can pick em up fairly cheap too
The XCON is rated at 1750W RMS and will take 2K so the 2200 is still on, output will be comparable to the 2 iDMAX but I will model both later to get that in proper light, There is still plenty SQ on the XCON to like, the lows are stellar on high quality 15"s. If you want to sacrifice some output and extension, the Q may be better for SQ.
Now really hope you can take measurements carefully, maybe something bigger can fit, with accurate data is easier to make suggestions, estimate output and else.
So it took me a little bit to get the MATLAB code right... but Im 99% sure I got it.
At first I tried to run the code on an entire song... but my computer gave me a memory error and proceeded to lock up. So for every song I chopped a 20 second clip where I thought the bass was pretty strong.
Heres the results of the three songs you asked about.
You may say... "damn thats kinda weird that they ALL have a peak around 44Hz... there must be an error in your code!"
Well in order to verify I took a song that was edited by a guy named DECAF on the stevemeade forums. This guy edits rap music by slowing it down and cleaning up the bass to make good show-off songs. He also notes the peak frequencies in his songs... I chose a song called "Kafani - Feelin Like (35, 26)" The 35, 26 are his noted peak frequencies... so to check that my code worked correctly I would expect to see 2 peaks, one near 35 Hz and one near 26 Hz... here is what I got:
If you have any other songs you want me to try, feel free to ask.
Thanks for the suggestions and help guys! And slackin, good input! I like sexy things haha And Joe great stuff, I don't think I will sacrifice the output and extention for more sq though haha I should be happy with the XCONs sq, I would rather be able to feel some lows and have greater output to be honest. But quick question, I know by output you mean the XCON will be louder, but what do you mean by extention? I was thinking frequency extention but i'm not sure. And i'm not sure how much of a difference in sq I would get when the XCON can hit better lows and is louder. Sounds like it'd be awesome. And i'd wire it at 1ohm with 2k then since that sounds good. I look forward to seeing that chart though, should put things into perspective for me. I'll get back to you on the measurements though, that sounds tougher haha I'd have to go to a dealership or something and figure out what to measure. (i'm guessing there is a guide on what and how to measure on this site somewhere...) Hoping it isn't that complicated to measure and I could just use a tape measure or something then type the results into my phone. It's definitely worth that better advice just for me to go on over to a dealership and measure it out.
And alonzo, great work! That's cool to look at haha, didn't expect to see those results. I'd like to see some more representations if you don't mind haha Let me see if I can think of 3 good ones...Datsik-Gecko, Niraya-Smphony of the Night and Borgore-Guided Relaxation Dub. But after seeing that last chart i'm going to search youtube/google for that track! haha I want to hear what a song with that much deep bass sounds like.
The song in that screenshot is in Zip #25 and is called "Kafani - Feelin Like (35, 26)". Honestly this isn't my genre of music, out of the 100 or so songs I have downloaded of his... I have only found 1 I actually liked, but a few of them are bareable enough simply because the bass sounds so low and clean.
As far as the ones you asked for, Borgore-Guided Relaxation Dub didn't really have a single frequency that stood out, I may have missed a part of the song that had strong bass because i kinda just skimmed through them. Heres the results:
If you want me to do anymore, It would make it easier for me if you told me a 20 or 30 second section to analyze, for example just gimme the name of the song and say something like 1:00 through 1:30 or something. That goes for anyone too lol, MATLAB is a program I use for school and any practice I get with it is a good thing for me, I don't mind doing these.
Arlright cool Alonzo...i'll be sure to keep you busy then! haha It's pretty cool seeing those, but maybe we should do it in a different thread. lol I was just about to seriously scour the web so I can do it myself and not have all these charts filling up the thread. Since it doesn't have to do with the XCONs or other subs. haha But i'll give you a time frame on the next few songs. And dude...after listening to that one rap song it made me realize I don't listen to music that goes THAT low, that's super deep. What i've been giving you and will be giving is a good representation of what I listen to. I think i'll just start up a new thread and call it something that has to do with your name and "frequency analyzer." haha Good practice for you, and cool charts for me.
And guys, I plan on checking out a dealership that should be pretty chill this weekend. I'll get the trunk measured up, and the area behind the two seats. With that info hopefully we can get the best setup going for what I want, but from what i've read the XCONs may do the job. I'm still open to suggestions though as always. Went from 2 12's to 1 15, who knows what else could work...
Ok, the XCON lives happy in big enclosures and low port tuning not so the vast majority of the subs. I think that nothing more than a tape measure will be necessary to get your dims, one important thing is that sometimes the box fits but it gets stuck in it's way in.
FeelinLike(goingBoom).wav LOL.. try that one on an improperly loaded sub!!
Lol... yeah, my sub at home is very small (small apt room) and is tuned in the upper forties... it doesn't take to kindly to low notes lol. In order to make sure a song is hitting low notes (cuz I can't really hear them on this sub) I just leave the volume REALLY low and put my fingertips on the cone of the sub... on songs like that one the cone just dances. It would probably bottom out mechanically at like ~10% volume... but im not gonna try it
Okay, XCON it is!! I should be able to update this thread sometime this weekend with the needed specs so we can figure out the best/biggest enclosure for the install with this sub. I just hope it wouldn't get stuck going through the door if I put it behind the seats! haha Trunk should be good, but i'd imagine it'd be a pain assembling the box from inside the car because it wouldn't fit...lol