Best tweeter placement ???

 

New member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 1
Registered: May-04
Just got a new set of diamond hex's. I need to know where I should put my tweeters. The factory placement in my car is all the way in the corner dash. As a result the imaging is out of whack. Any recommendations on placement ? Thanks
 

Anonymous
 
Probably in the kick panels. Even if the woofer is in the door location, the kicks will be close to on axis with the woofer, then you can angle them for the best imaging. You could also try flush mounting beside the woofer in the door. Move the tweeter around in the car in different locations (preferably as close to the woofer as possible), make sure the crossover is set to flat, then judge what sounds best to your ears. Make sure to fold up masking tape, tape the tweeter in temporary places, and judge from the DRIVERS seat. This should solve your problem. You could also try cutting the tweeter down on the crossover or reversing polarity. Hope this helps
 

New member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 2
Registered: May-04
O.k. I put the tweeters really close to the mid range. But they are not in the door I kept them in the car,about 2 inches from where the door shuts and to the left of where the footrest is. Does it matter that I have it angled up towards me or does it have to fire the same direction as the mid ?? Also What would be The "Flat" setting ? I have mine at -6 on the crossover but there are other setting . (I have MB quarts) Thanks for all the insight.
 

Anonymous
 
Angle it towards you. They don't have to fire exactly with the mid, but being close allows the levels to blend together better, because the phase. If the tweeters are too far from the midrange, such as high in the A pillars or on the dash you'll hear the tweeter faster than the mid, which will take away from the midrange. This is what reversing polarity helps (sometimes) because it slows the tweeter down just a tad. I can't remember what the HEX series crossovers look like, but you'll see pluses and minuses, whichever one does not say +6 or -6 is the flat setting. Basically, it doesn't attenuate or boost tweeter level. Does it sound a lot better?
 

New member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 4
Registered: May-04
my speakers do sound ALOT better after putting the crossover at -2 it also has a 0. I don't have diamond crossovers I had bought the Diamond components without the crossover for cheap. so I am using my old mb quart crossovers. The guy said it wouldn't make a difference in sound that I mix brands. What do you think ? Also, I wanted to ask about the crossover setting on the amplifier. Should it match the seperates setting ? I have an xtant a4004 4 channel amp. Although it does not state any numbers on the controls. Any tips on amp settings gain etc. ----Really appreciate the education on on this website.
 

Anonymous
 
Well, it probably won't matter too much. The crossover frequency is the same, there may be a little difference, but not too noticeable. No, the crossover setting on the amp is a high pass filter, to keep subwoofer frequencies out so that the components will not bottom out and will sound cleaner. What I usually do, after setting the gain on the amp (I explain this below) I turn the system up very loud, and if the speakers bottom out, I turn the crossover up until it sounds clean. If they don't break up, you could leave the crossover off or you could turn it up more and more until you notice a difference, then back down a bit. This way you know you're not damaging the speakers. As far as setting gain, the gain matches the amps output power to the input signal from the head unit. If you have a high voltage preamp from the head unit (such as an Eclipse, which is 8 volts) then the gain will need to be turned down. Pioneers, Sony's, Kenwoods, all that are lower line head units will put out less voltage, and will need a higher gain. Basically, turn the gain all the way down, the speakers should be barely audible. Turn the volume on the head unit up until you hear distortion, then, when you hit that mark, turn it down to just where the distortion stops. This is the maximum signal to noise ratio from the head unit. Then, turn up the amp's gain until you hear distortion from the speakers, then turn it down until it stops. I usually turn it a tad further down than that for safety measures, because by that time it's so loud that I'll never listen to it at that level anyway. Hope this helps.
 

New member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 5
Registered: May-04
Great post anonymous. Your no-rookie. Allright so I have went out and purchased that eclipse 8ohm receiver yesterday (8454) you spoke of, it is top of the line- so clear. And the bass is more tight as well. I also did some tweaking thanks to the last post. The gain has to be way down for that deck. The only thing I don't like is the lack of xm radio capibility & mp3. But it has great sound. Thanks again
 

Anonymous
 
I love the 8454. It's a GREAT head unit and has features that are out of this world. Have you tried E-iSERV yet? it's a great feature. Glad you're happy. I was going to get an equalizer before I got mine, but I've put it off for now thanks to the features of the head unit. Just awesome, I'd recommend it to anybody.
 

Anonymous
 
By the way, I forgot to mention. When you're checking the imaging of the tweeters and mids, I find it best to listen to a FEMALE vocalist, mainly because a female's vocals go to a higher frequency and often require the midrange and tweeter to have to blend in to get the vocals. If your image is right, the females voice will sound like it's coming from a single point. As far as equalization and imaging, that Eclipse head unit is fantastic and you'll have a lot of options from what to do. The memory stick is nice to plug to your computer and use E-iSERV for optimum sound. With the combination of time correction, equalizer controls and E-iSERV, your system will sound the best it ever has in no time.
 

Anonymous
 
By the way, 8454 can play MP3s and WMA's.
 

New member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 7
Registered: May-04
yeah your right it can. I thoght I needed an adapter. Any tips on the EQ/crossover settings, as there are alot of them to configure. I also did the signal to noise test you recommended a couple of posts ago, but there was no distortion at all when I turned my amp all the way down. very nice radio. It will take a while to learn everything, but thats the fun part right. I don't mind rush hour as much now. LOL
 

New member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 7
Registered: May-04
Finally got a screen name. The Hex series have a really nice, smooth frequency response, and really the equalization is your preference. If you like a smooth, flat response (my preference, I think the music should determine which frequencies to prioritize) E-iSERV is a very easy way to get it. It also explains the adjustments and what they'll do, in which I'd have to post a page to list what all the features do. go to www.eclipse-web.com and click on E-iSERV for a tutorial and intro, they have a pro and easy mode. Even if you don't like a flat response or the sound it gives you, it'll still explain to you what everything does. It's free, all you have to do is register, and is probably as close to perfect as you're gonna get w/o getting a 30 band equalizer.
 

New member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 8
Registered: May-04
oh, Do you own a similar deck ? If not what kind ? I have figured most of it out. A little trouble calculating the time correction in pro-mode. Also no treble or bass controls but I guess thats why there's and EQ. I will check out that E-iSERVE site.
Wish I could hide the radio some-how despite the internal security feture.
 

New member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 10
Registered: May-04
I have that head unit. It's great. It took a day to orient myself w/ the unit, but you'll learn. I spend a Saturday in my driveway and just tuned it one step at a time, no whimsical experimentation, just adjust each setting slowly and subtly until you like it. In my other car I custom made a lexan window and tinter it, then made a custom hinge and mounted it above the CD player. It looks great and covers the CD player up, it also helps the CD players lights appear better on sunny days.
 

New member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 9
Registered: May-04
John,


A tinted window
is a great idea. Unfortunately I don't think I have the ingenuity to complete that task. I wanted to ask about the time correction in Pro-Mode. I thought I calculated it right but it seems off. For my other deck the time correction feature had individual speaker (front right, left rear etc.) distance settings. This one has HI,LO Mid. for the settings, along with decible level. I'm guessing that it means the rca outputs taht I connected from my deck to my amp but i'm not sure because I have highs and mids and lows for all my speakers (front, rear and subs) ?
Also what kind of amp are you running your components with ? Thanks
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 20
Registered: May-04
Well, the 8454's head unit in Pro mode is mainly designed for 3 way component systems. The frequency of the crossover determines where the time alignment for hi mid and low are set at. Easy mode isn't bad, either. Check your crossover frequencies and tell me where they're at.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 21
Registered: May-04
Also, how is your system hooked up? do you have rear fill?
 

New member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 10
Registered: May-04
Yeah it seems to me easy mode sounds better. I know it's because I haven't tweaked it enough though. The hi frequencies are set at (4k) , mid (12.5k) and Low (64hz) I think.
My system has 2 10's in a sealed box facing the trunk along with 2 6x9's in the rear window. Subs are hooked up to a mono amp (xtant) and I have a 4 channel amp to run my hex's and rears (Boston accoustics).
I was thinking about running my rears with my receiver and bridging my xtant 4 channel to get more power to the diamonds. What do you think ? The subs sound tighter since the addition of the eclipse. But not alot of control over them through the deck as far as boosting the bass. I wonder If I could get a 4 inch diamond speaker to make it a 3 way set ? I think I need to get a second Job. LoL
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 36
Registered: May-04
Kinda long, stay with me. Don't get a 4 inch diamond speaker. I may have confused you. LO is for the subwoofer in your case, but on 3 way components, LO should be set to the 3 ways midbass. Your's is 3 way, but in a different way. Since your sub amp is mono, don't do time correction differently for separate channels. This will screw it up, because the signal coming to the amp will cause the sub to produce the sound twice. For two ways, set the Mid and Hi frequencies to match your components, then Low for the sub. In pro mode, You should set the high and mid frequencies on the crossover to match the crossover of your component system(ex. if your crossover is 3.5k, that's what the HPF on tweeter (high) should be set to. Then mid should be set to, say 100-3.5k.) Then set Lo to 100 hz. (make sure the sub amps low pass is set to 100, too) The reason for this, Assume your system to be the same as my previous example, If your crossovers are set to, say midrange HPF 100 and midrange LPF 5k, then tweeter to 5k on the head unit, and you've slowed down the tweeter more than the mid, then 3.5k-5k will be way out of phase and sound will be way off. Set the crossover slope to match the slope of your component system's crossover also, as it will roll off almost equally. If you try pro mode again, try that and see if it helps. Using E-Iserv will help, regardless of what you enter to start with, because the head unit will download the response of your setting and once you enter that online, it will be corrected for you. What does the amp put out bridged? If it's not too much, bridge it. If it's a little more than recommended, it'll still work IF you are very careful not to drive the speakers too hard. They'll sound a lot better with the optimum power.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 11
Registered: May-04
O.k. so crossover settings have to do with timing as well . When you say don't do time correction for seperate channels do you mean keep it at
0.00 ms for the highs and mids ? And what about the low setting for my subs.

I will try to match the HU crossover with my mb quart crossover but It is set to flat '0' ,should I switch it to FLAT '3'?

As for my xtant 4 channel amp it's says Bridged RMS Power: 200w x 2. What's the proper wiring for this mode? Should I use the rear channel too,when bridging ? I have -+ -+(FRONT) -+ -+ (REAR).

The mono sub amp is rated at 600 x 1 . However I looked at the website of my subs (Infinity) and it says to wire them in parellel for more power at a lower impedence. Is this recommended?
Would it mess with the timing ?

Again thanks for Knowledge .
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 41
Registered: May-04
No, the time correction is set for Left and right channels. Mid and Highs can be set to what sounds the best, but the subs are run off a mono amp, meaning if your left and right time settings for Lo (which is subs) are set differently, the mono sub channel will produce the sound twice because it produces what comes from both channels. The crossover is dependant on the frequency of where the mid and tweeter crossover at, many are 3.5k. Basically, the mid gets everything below 3.5k and the tweeter gets everything above. That's what you should match. Slope is how many decibels the crossover rolls off per octave (youll see 12db/oct, 24db/oct) Your crossover will determine that. You should look at a website and see what your crossover slopes at. Flat 0 and +2 settings have nothing to do with it, they just adjust volume level of the tweeter in relation to the mid. As far as bridging the amp, Diamond components take 170RMS, so 200 can be done IF you turn the gain down as to not damage them. The amp should have markings where to connect the wires for bridged mode, if not search for info on their website. also the front should get the left signal, and rear should get right, use RCA splitters to send signal to both inputs of each channel. The subs are totally dependant on what load you want to run. If they are Dual voice coil (I'm assuming they are) it is dependant on the impedance of the coils (2+2, 4+4) Two 2+2 subs should be wired in series at the coils, and the two subs in parallel to the amp. Two 4+4 subs should be wired the same way unless the amp is 1 ohm stable.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 65
Registered: May-04
Actually, sorry, Easy mode is all you can do. Pro mode is set for bi-amping. Meaning you run rear channels for tweeters and front for mids.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 12
Registered: May-04
Oh, I guess I should try bi-amping then. It would probably give me the same power as bridging right. Also my subs are single voice coil.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 68
Registered: May-04
Bi-amping them would be nice if you can. The front preout will be for highs, the rear for mids, the subs for lo. It will get rid of your MB quart crossover as that would be controlled by the head unit (crossover slope and crossover points I explained above), then with your 4-channel you could power the tweeters w/ the front outputs of the amp and the mids w/ the rear. The only thing is the tweeters will get the same power the mid will, but you can turn the tweeter level down by 10+ db on the head unit. It would sound great. It would give 100w per speaker if your amp is 50x4. That would allow you to time align all of the speakers individually, too. No, wiring the subs (assuming 4 ohm, so it won't have compatibility problems w/ the amp) in parallel won't mess with the timing IF it's the same for both sides. The mono amp thing I explained above, so you know what will happen if the timing's different. Sorry if I confused you above, haven't got a lot of sleep lately and don't use Pro mode a lot, but I got it now. Try that and see what you think.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 13
Registered: May-04
I probably can just use the 4 rear speaker wires that are ran from my head unit to the amp, as they won't be used anymore for my rears. That would save me time and money. I also noticed when I installed my hex mids, that the old mb quarts were hooked up with the factory wiring. Not the tweets though they have thick wire. Do you think I should run lower gauge wire to the door where the mids are or is it that important for mids ? I will try it. Thanks bud, and get some sleep.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 77
Registered: May-04
You could, I'd recommend RCAs with the 8 volt outputs, but it's up to you. They'll sound cleaner and have less distortion, and you also won't be able to use time correction and other features as you need the Preouts to do it. You could just do that for now and save up for RCA's. I'd run 14 ga from the amp to both the mids and tweets. 14 ga will be plenty, especially since the Hex can take a lot of power. Try bi-amping, totally eliminate the MB Quart crossovers, and set the head unit to the correct crossover frequencies. Then you can fool with time correction as now it will work correctly. Hope you enjoy it.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 14
Registered: May-04
John, I always assumed the components crossover would be a better choice (higher quality) then the deck's. I don't want to blow my hex tweeters. I read that the diamond hex crossovers allow for bi-amping and are built great. My mb quart cross does not allow for bi-amping. I will give it a shot though since I don't have the diamonds crossover.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 94
Registered: May-04
The Eclipse's built in crossover is a pretty high quality. Can't say it'll be on par with Diamond Audio's, but prob. better than the MB quart's, depending on which crossovers they were. Good luck with it.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Germanguy

Post Number: 32
Registered: May-04
sorry, maybe I didn't get it right, but the recommended locations in the beginning of this threat for placement of the tweeters are not correct.
the perfect location for an ideal front staging is above the dash board in the lower end of the A-pillar, irrespective of the woofers location. the door-woofer needs to be angled up a little bit towards your head as well to get the ideal range. the aiming of the tweeter then has to be done by hearing.
by the way, haven't seen any professional installation lately that uses another location than the A-pillar and I'm talking SQ.
 

Silver Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 248
Registered: May-04
The problem with mounting the tweeter up high in sound quality applications is the fact that the tweeter's timing is out of phase with the woofers, making the higher frequencies reach your ears first. You can't adjust the tweeters timing unless you bi-amp the system, which is difficult and requires perfect blending of power. As far as A-pillars, while good for added high frequency clarity, frequencies that require blending the tweeter and woofer (such as the typical female voice) will be off because the tweeter is heard faster than the woofer, making the soundstage less than perfect. Actually, competition winning vehicles usually use the component tweeter as close to the woofer as possible. This provides a centered soundstage with good blending of the drivers. Then, they may add additional tweeters up high and attenuate them just to raise the soundstage and give a bit more side to side definition. The reason "Professional" installations don't put them in places other than the A pillar is because most of them use factory door locations and use A pillars so they don't have to totally gash the interior to mount the tweeters, that and they don't often make kick panels. Mike started with the dash and didn't like it, so the A-pillars wouldn't be any improvement.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Snickerbocker

Post Number: 16
Registered: May-04
Jonathan,
I have noticed that my music "peaks out" sometimes. I can't reaaly explain it other then saying it gets noticeably louder in some songs during a chorus line or a change in beat, then goes back to normal. It doesn't sound natural and is sometimes earpiercing. It was much more apparent with my old pioneer deck, but have noticed it a little since the installation of my eclipse hu. I have a capacitor that I am not using and was thinking of installing it to my 4 channel amp. Would that help the sound crescendo that I experience sometimes ???? Or is it just for bass peaks ??? Thanks
 

Silver Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 298
Registered: May-04
Weird. Could be a power supply issue, but not likely if your lights don't dim. My guess is the input sensitivity can't go all the way to 8 volts, maybe with the volume up the higher signal (such as a signal with a louder chorus or a huge bass line) causes the amp to go into distortion (what you described as peaking). Turn the gain down and see if it helps.
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