24bit dac !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

jah
Unregistered guest
Hey ,is there any major significance to the 24bitdac because i realised that many head unit have this in them but i am yet to see any alpine with a 24bitdac.Does this mean alpine is lagging behind in technolgy and hence their sq is not fantastic or the 24bitdac is irrelevant in the sq of a head unit .Can someone help me out here
thanks
 

Silver Member
Username: Vinnyqh

Portland, OR

Post Number: 129
Registered: Nov-05
it is, and it isn't. some people like the 24bit DAC some like the 1 bit (if you don't believe me ask some home audio guys). alpine does have 24 bit DAC i believe in their 9855 and their 9853.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kd7nfr

Montpelier, ID United States

Post Number: 1310
Registered: Apr-05
Alpine doesn't offer 24 bit DAC. Maybe their F1 Status does, but they're showroom models don't.
 

jah
Unregistered guest
Thanks jake ,but does this mean an alpine would not sound as clean as say the new sony gt 300 because it has a regulated 1bit dac while the sony as a 24bit dac
anyone got an answer to this?
another thing i am curious about is the signal to noise ratio, sony is the best in this department @120 db for the cd section,and yet i see alot of people thrash sony on this forum .Are sony`s firgure false and just a way to sell their products or this is just not an import aspect to look at when choosing a head unit
Thanks guy i would appreciate any kind of help here
 

Gold Member
Username: Illuminator

USA

Post Number: 2409
Registered: Apr-05
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~erick205/Papers/paper.html


quote:

The number of bits in a DAC is a poor method of determining its performance and accuracy. A better measure of performance is the accuracy of the actual bits themselves. Under ideal circumstances, a 16-bit converter would exactly convert all 16-bits of the sample data word in a linear fashion. However, this is seldom possible. In practice a 16-bit DAC is less than sufficient for accurate conversion.

The error in a 16-bit (or any multi-bit) converter relies on the accuracy of the most significant bit (MSB) of the data word. Inaccuracy in this bit can result in an error of half the signal's amplitude--a significant error by any measure. This in mind, manufacturers reasoned that converters with high bit rates could overcome this shortcoming along with others through sheer numbers. In addition to ensuring the accuracy of the MSB by having more than 16-bits, they can also improve quantization performance by adding 2x-16 more quantization levels than a 16-bit converter. Now, any nonlinearity in the conversion process would be a far smaller fraction of the overall signal and the more quantization levels result in a greater S/E ratio by virtue of Eq. 1. The extra bits used by these converters may be either thrown away, be left unused, or be put to other intelligent uses that will be discussed later. Unfortunately, it is a misconception that the use of an 18- or 20-bit DAC gives true 18 or 20-bit audio performance.

Despite the fantastic performance benefits of these nth generation multi-bit converters, they are still plagued by many errors. Linearity was already mentioned, but they are also plagued by gain error, slew-rate distortion, and zero-crossing distortion. All of these error and distortion types introduce severe harmonic distortion and group delay; thereby perturbing signal stability, imaging, and staging.

Two methods of output reconstruction have been used with the multi-bit DAC's. The first of these employed the use of the "brickwall" filter. These filters had a very sharp cutoff characteristic and held the signal gain close to unity almost to cutoff. This was necessitated because the data was at a frequency such that aliasingand noise artifacts existed immediately above the audible band. The inherent problem with such a filter design was that they had tremendousphase nonlinearities at high frequencies, and high-frequency group delay--change in phase shift with respect to frequency. The second method of output reconstruction deals with an oversampling digital filter prior to the DAC and a gentle analog filter. By gentle, it is meant that a cutoff slope of 12 dB/octave and a -3 dB point of 30-40 kHz can be used. Its design then is noncritical and low-order--which guarantees excellent phase linearity. In fact, for most practical reconstruction filters, phase distortion can be held at ±0.5° over the entire audio band.




Basically, more problems are involved with more bits to handle. Alpine might be playing it safe by keeping it at 1 bit where there is less chance of error. Of course, this shouldn't dissuade you from getting a CD player with a multi-bit converter. They do sound better most of the time. You just have to remember: better sound=more money, regardless of how many bits a DAC has. Analog amplification and other stages of audio processing also have to be taken into consideration. Thanks to zx1100e2 for getting me the above link.


quote:

Are sony`s firgure false and just a way to sell their products or this is just not an import aspect to look at when choosing a head unit




Yep, don't go by their specs.
 

jah
Unregistered guest
Hey jexx
thank you very much for your input ,you have been very helpful
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 10826
Registered: Dec-03
my alpine 7990 has 24 bit burr-brown K-grade DACs.

anyway, there are linear 1-bit DACs that essentially process data in serial stream, and 24 bit DACs that process the two 8 bit streams of a stereo signal, and have an 8 bit comparitor "overlap" used for error correction.

Honestly I don't think you'll hear the difference, especially in a moving and running car. Most players with 24bit DACs are higher models though so other factors will make them sound different or better. Usually higher line voltages, signal processing, etc.
 

jah
Unregistered guest
hey glasswolf thanks for the info ,
i now know that for a head unit to sound good some other factor come into play and having a 24bit dac does not guarantee a better sq than a head unit with a 1 bit dac.
i stand to be corrected thou as i am new at this
i wld also like to know what to look out for when choosing a head unit in term of sq.
i ask you this question because for you to own the alpine 7990 you must be an audiophile and i am trying to be one as well
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 10834
Registered: Dec-03
4V line outs are great when using amplifiers.
the higher the line voltage (4V vs 2V) the better the signal resolution will be.. you'll get a cleaner, and more detailed signal at the other end of the line.

quality brands will have better internals and build quality as you go up in price and product line. There's really no set list of things to get to guarantee a good source unit though. A lot of it comes down to experience or knowing what companies' products sound like, or how different designs affect the coloration or SQ of a unit etc.

Aside from just getting a decent solid head unit with good line outs, look for the features you want, like mp3 support etc. outside of that the head unit is the least of your concerns for good SQ.
the speakers, placement, and amplification are far more vital to the end result.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kd7nfr

Montpelier, ID United States

Post Number: 1321
Registered: Apr-05
Glasswolf is still alive and kick'in! Did you find a woman or something? Just wondering where you've been. You better have a good excuse... Heh.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 10840
Registered: Dec-03
does cataract surgery count?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jkidder

Spring hill, Florida Usa

Post Number: 24
Registered: Nov-05
now ur GlassEye ahahaahahah.. no offense
 

Gold Member
Username: Kd7nfr

Montpelier, ID United States

Post Number: 1328
Registered: Apr-05
What kind of corrective surgery was it? Was it a major problem or did you just get sick and tired of wearing glasses?
 

Silver Member
Username: Audioguy22

Post Number: 194
Registered: Jul-05
For the most part, its all about marketing! The SQ is mostly in the Analog output stage. Old 16 bit DAC's with a Discrete analog stage will sound a lot better than 24 bit DAC's with op-amp analog stage.

 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 10847
Registered: Dec-03
lens replacement for cataracts.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kd7nfr

Montpelier, ID United States

Post Number: 1334
Registered: Apr-05
Ouch.
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