What the...? Beyond strange, this is...

 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 108
Registered: Jun-05
Ok.. I'm running six 12's, and a JL 13W7.

The 12's are all powered by a Hifonics 1600 rms, and the W7 is being powered by a PG Xenon 1200RMS (at 1-4 ohms).

Set my bass boost to sound good with the 12's. However, then, when I turn the bass boost up on my PG amp (both using wired remotes) the bass almost vanishes, even from the 12's.

What the heck is causing this...?? Anyone help?

Seth
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9835
Registered: Dec-03
-cancellation
-possible inverted phase on the 13W7
-lack of current maybe?

why do you need 6 12" subs with a 13W7?
that 13W7 should be plenty for SQ and a lot of bass with 1200 watts going to it.
is it ported?
 

Silver Member
Username: Southernrebel

Monroe, Louisiana USA

Post Number: 941
Registered: Mar-04
dear sweet jesus...lol

why do you have all those subs? are you the guy w/ 3 bandpass boxes? you prolly have VERY big cancellation issues as well as nowhere near the current needed to drive those amps.

prolly the best advice that anyone can give you is to build a nice ported box for that 13w7 and just get rid of the 12's and the hifonics amp. that way you will have some cash to get a HO alternator. I'm not being mean...just sensable. a well-built ported box and that 13w7 on the PG amp will hammer...a promise you!

 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 109
Registered: Jun-05
It's not lack of current. And the box is very large, built into the hatch of my firebird, and yes, it's slot ported. (built by a JL authorized dealer). My alt is 200 amps, 14.4v. It's not like cancellation..I mean the bass almost totally stops, and gets very muddy what little is heard...it's very odd.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 110
Registered: Jun-05
Not sure why you assumed I didnt have a HO alternator.. :-) lol. Running a pair of 0 gauge back, one going to a 20 farad capacitor, then a 4 gauge from that, to my PG amp (and another 4 guage going to the dist block that my 2nd 0 gauge splits at) my other 0 gauge, is going to a dist block, then from there, a 4 gauge going to the other input on my PG amp, a 4 gauge going to the hifonics, and a 4 gauge going to my 4way amp.. (MB Quartz midbass, RF tweeters frontstage, pioneer REV series 2way rear quarter panels). 0 gauge wire from engine/chasis, batt/chasis, and alt/bat.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4620
Registered: May-04
Assuming these amplifiers provide their true RMS power, you will have a total 2800W RMS. Divide 2800 by that 14.4V, and you'll get 194 amps of draw, assuming that the amplifiers are 100% efficient, which they aren't. They'll be closer to 80% efficient, which would be 242 amps of draw assuming an 80% efficiency. Add the fact that your car has to run accessories and control systems, like the computer, headlights, radio, A/C, ignition system, etc., which can consume 50A or so depending on how many accessories you're running, end result is that you'll be drawing substantially more current than even that HO alternator is capable of providing.

If you want to test this, though, do this at night and watch the headlights. If they get drastically dim or nearly go out, you definately have a current delivery problem.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4621
Registered: May-04
AND you have a 4 channel amp? That's even more current draw.

Honestly, though, I agree with Glasswolf, I wouldn't even bother running 6 Dual 12" subs in a bandpass box if I had a 13W7 in the vehicle. It kind of degrades the purpose of a high quality sound system. I'd personally try to sell all of those and invest in some really nice front component speakers or something.
 

Silver Member
Username: Southernrebel

Monroe, Louisiana USA

Post Number: 946
Registered: Mar-04
^^^ yea, what jonathan said

yea...i did assume you didnt have a HO alt, but then again 9 out of 10 people that ask questions on this forum dont have one. Use a DMM and see if your voltage is dropping when you turn it up loud. With both of those amps running, and your car sitting at idle...your not gonna have anywhere near the current you need.

oh...and you know that that word ASSUME does, dont ya? it makes an A.$$ out of U and ME. :-)
(my grandpa always used to tell me that...lol)
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 111
Registered: Jun-05
Heh. Actually...that brings up my next question.. My alternator is regulated, and kicks on at 900 rpm..how do I raise my idle? It idles at about 650, and would like to change it to idle higher.. When I'm driving, my voltage gauge barely even flinches on the loudest bass notes, but yes, if I'm idling, it drops, but still refils fairly quickly.

And honestly... I'm very impressed with these duals. I'm definately not a dual advocate or anything...tried a lot of their other products and they were horrible.. But the dual 12s they sell in a bandpass box are actually impressive, IMO. (in both quality, and SPL). Will try switching the phase of the W7 in a few minutes, see if that's my problem... But, I'd honestly say that 4 of the duals would EASILY be louder than the W7 from what I've heard in my vehicle.. 2 would be a close call. If I had a place to post a video, I'd link to one I made, with just the 6 duals, of me turning on my radio, walking into the house, and the vibrations in the BACK of my house being strong enough still to rattle weight lifting equipment, and mirrors/windows. It's funny, lol. (With my windows up though, hear almost nothing outside the car... like 4 gallons of edead liquid completely covering it...

Upload
Upload
Upload
Upload
Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Justintoxicated

Post Number: 153
Registered: Jan-05
Check the wiring on your bandpass Subs also, if one is reversed somewhere it will create a HUGE phase issue in a bandpass box.

I used to have a Bandpass and the SQ blows. It is very loud and clear at certain frequencies but really sucks at the majority of them.
My gues is one of the subs in the bandpass is out of phase. They basicaly cancel each other out if this happens. Otherwise maybe the JL sub is out of phase with yrou bandpass. try reversing it.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 112
Registered: Jun-05
Heh...the bandpass sound GREAT without the bass boost on the W7 turned up, Justin. They're in phase for sure.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4629
Registered: May-04
I would hope that 4 12s in a bandpass box would be louder than a single 13W7 :-).

Anyway, another possibility is that you have some of your subs wired in series. The problem with wiring in series is that there are unavoidable differences between drivers, be they slight ones, and the fact that there is a high chance of uneven loading between different speakers in the car. Due to the mechanical differences, the speakers will modulate each other (affect one anothers mechanical performance). The problem will worsen as more power is applied. There is also a phase shift that occurs from wiring multiple drivers in series. Speakers are inductors, after all.
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9840
Registered: Dec-03
I'm still thinking cancellation ro phase inversion
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 113
Registered: Jun-05
Nope... Subs are wired para. Each sub is 8 ohms, wired internally to one single 4 ohm output. 4 ohm / 4 ohm / 4 ohm, all in paralell with the hifonics amp which is 1 ohm stable. :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9845
Registered: Dec-03
if you end up discovering a sub was out of phase somewhere, I will find you and kill you. know this. :P

disconnect the hifonics and see if the JL functions properly by itself
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 114
Registered: Jun-05
GlassWolf! Pleasenosir. lol. I havnt tested the phase on the W7, still thinking you might be right, and the person that built the box wired it, with the red attached to neg. It's kind of a pain to get to those wires tho, so havnt tested this yet.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 115
Registered: Jun-05
Also, not really important, but Jonathan, at 2 ohms, the hifonics is 1100 RMS. at 1 ohm, it's 1600 RMS. The 4/4/4 config I have, equals out to be a 1.33 ohm load. The hifonics is not CEA rated, either... So should be around in reality, 1100 RMS I'm betting at the ohms I'm running.. (*Should* be a lot more, but I dont think hifonics actually put out what they're rated).

The PG amp is CEA rated at 1200, and my 4way is CEA rated at 60x4. So 240 / 1200 / 1100 = 2540ish, leaving plenty of spare room for accessories. My lights only dim when I'm idling.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Spyder

Eglin AFB, Florida USA

Post Number: 60
Registered: Jun-05
you know i wan't to know what you run on a spl meter.....just out of curiousity. you tell me what all those subs pull and i will let you know what my single 12 did in a vented box with my new zapco amp at the last show i went to. give you a hint i took first place in 0-15!
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9854
Registered: Dec-03
Seth, no need to pull the sub, just swap pos and neg wiring at the box terminals or amp. takes 1- seconds.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 116
Registered: Jun-05
Glass, I know that..heh heh. But the wires are behind my quarter panels.. (the box is built into my hatch, and the wires go out the sides of the box on the bottom underneath the lip. Will check for this as soon as I get back from the dentists. :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 117
Registered: Jun-05
Well, not built into it...but lays down into it, and the sucker is heavy as hell, but not perma attached or anything..just a pain in the butt to get to the wiring. :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 118
Registered: Jun-05
Just re-read your post glasswolf...I have no clue why, but it never even occured to me to swap the wires at the amp. I'll go do that right now, and let you know when I get back from the dentists if this fixed the problem. :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 119
Registered: Jun-05
Ok. Back from the dentist. (ugh, numb face, yay) Switched the phase.

Thanks Glasswolf, havnt messed with the bass boost yet, but overall the system sounds 100% better.. The sound quality alone blew me away. Will post later on today with if the bass boost still effects it the same way..but it dosnt even really need it, lol.

Another question for you Glasswolf. My system is MUCH louder (or so it seems) with the windows down...bass hits harder, etc.. However, I really dont like bothering people 3 blocks away.. Any way at all to vent to the outside of the car to gain the same effect of airpsace etc, increasing the volume, without actually having bass pour outside my vehicle?
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9868
Registered: Dec-03
it was a phase inversion issue! woo! I was starting to think I'd lost it.. hehe

as for venting th cabin, part of the problem is the number of subs, and as a result, the air volume you're compressing and rarefying with 7 subs in that car.. Some time try pulling the fuse on the Hifonics amp to disable the 6 twelves, and just run the 13W7 by itself on that PG amp and see how it sounds to you. It really may be all you need in that car, and going to a single vented enclosure without the 3 bandpass enclosures may solve part of the problem.
Otherwise, in those cars I might look for a spot behind the rear wheel wells in the trunk, or in the drop section to cut an farily large opening, fiberglass around it, and put a filter mesh in place to act as a screen to keep dirt and water out but allow air coupling. Otherwise, the windows are about it..
either way it's going to be heard outside the car since you need to couple a fairly copious amount of air to eliminate the problem entirely.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 120
Registered: Jun-05
Ok, with just the W7...(pulled fuses on hifonics)

Wow. The SQ at all frequencies, without a doubt, sounds so clear, and the bass really does still shake things up, rather nicely.

I was really starting to wonder what all the fuss about W7's was, and why the hell I paid $900 for it from an authorized dealer that dosnt do refunds.. Was really disappointed before switching the phase.

But all in all, definately going to be keeping the bandpass boxes, too.. The SQ on them really is pretty nice, especially on those notes they're tuned for.. and the added SPL is very nice.

Glasswolf, bandpass adds what, like 6db, and ported 3? Really would like to get rid of the dual's, and move to something with better SQ...(becoming more a fan of SQ than SPL over time) Was thinking about having a box custom built so it looks cleaner, and having maybe 5 12" subs to replace them (can have the box made into somewhat of an upside U to fit behind the driver/passenger seats...something like this.

O O O
O . . O

(the bump being because there is a hump between the space where I took the back seats out, that goes between the driver and passenger seats as well. (The console sits on it, as well as the shifter cover, etc)

What I wanted to know is... Since 3 DB takes double the power... What kind of subs I would need for that setup, as well as how much power, would I need..? (Assuming I wanted to improve SQ, but keep the same SPL?) Still would be looking probably for a SPL sub, or SQL, just something better than dual's..

A lot of people are like "oh that's easy", etc...but losing 3db due to box design (going from BP to ported), as well as 1 less 12" subwoofer.. Without spending thousands and thousands of dollars on the project, do you have any recomendations?

Also...If you wanted to get together with me to help me out with this project, I'd be more than willing to pay for your expertise/time in actually designing it, and drawing out the specs/measurements of the boxes, etc...

Seth
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9882
Registered: Dec-03
I'd go with better twelves yeah.. maybe something from RE or Elevation or something like that, and read jlaudio.com's pages (under mobile audio > support > tutorials > bandpass boxes or magic box articles) about single and dual reflex boxes. The gain from a bandpass box can vary a lot.. from +3 to over +12dB compared to sealed in fact. It really depends on the box and what you are willing to compromise in power, space, and SQ/tuning range.

"Since 3 DB takes double the power"
ehh to clarify, +3dB is "equal to" twice the power from an amplifier (as opposed to twice the audible volume.) The box is actually louder with the saem amount of power due to an increase in efficiency from the enclosure itself.

"A lot of people are like "oh that's easy", etc...but losing 3db due to box design (going from BP to ported), as well as 1 less 12" subwoofer.. Without spending thousands and thousands of dollars on the project, do you have any recomendations?"

well, in a sense the answer itself is easy :-)
you need higher quality, higher output subs. that along with a possible increase in power, or the same power with fewer subs and more efficient enclosures will yield equal or better results in teh same amount of space in the car.

get better subs, put them in better custom boxes with the same hifonics amp, and you'll get better end results without giving anything up really.. and you can sell those three Qlogic boxes with the subs in them.. ya won't need them any longer, and the money will help cover the upgrade cost a bit.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 121
Registered: Jun-05
Glasswolf, to clarify, they definately arent Q-Logic boxes...the boxes were made for the subs..(came pre-loaded).

Upload

Specs:

Pair of 12" subs, bandpass box
600 watts RMS handling (300 per sub)
Injection-molded Polyproplene cone
Neodymium poly-treated foam surround
Low-Q optimized drivers
4-port (4" each) dual-chamber design
Frequency Response: 24 - 180Hz
Sensitivity: 89dB
15" height 18" length 28" Width
48 lbs
38 oz Neodymium magnet
Stamped-Metal frame



That's what I have 3 of in the firebird, with the 13W7. What would you recomend as far as replacing them?

Do you think the upsidedown U design would be efficient, and if so, should each sub have it's own sealed chamber, or should they share a chamber, etc? A lot of questions about the design.. That's why I offered some cash for your professional advice / help with designs.. :-) Seriously, if you're willing to help, I'll paypal half the $ upfront..can discuss how much..
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4636
Registered: May-04
Me personally, if I were in your shoes, had the money, and wanted more output, I'd sell those and save up enough money to do a W7 duo, with the necessary power for them. I can't imagine many people wanting more output for a daily driver unless they compete on the side, which W7s can compete well as long as it's not a professional competition or anything. Depends on $$$ though, but 5 good 12s are going to run you at least $500 if you're getting a good deal, not counting the effort or money that has to be put into the enclosure(s) for the 5 twelves, and the necessary amplifier power to get them moving. You could get really trick and get someone to fiberglass the enclosures and flush mount everything for a clean look as well. You'll get a 3db increase just from porting your W7, and another 6 if you were to add another and give it equal power (general rule of thumb).
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 122
Registered: Jun-05
I really dont think a single W7 could come close to replacing all 6 of the 12's, though. The one in my hatch, is already slot ported, by the way. (can see the slot in the picture I posted, towards the back)

I realize that it's going to be pricey to replace them all with decent equipment, but I've already invested quite a bit into my car (Custom paint, underbody white neon, red neon interior, re-did the entire carpet, changed interior to white and black, from grey and light grey, replacing the stock 16" rims with 20" DUB edition black gloss rims, etc) So by my statement of spending "thousands and thousands", I meant I'm just not super-rich, and gonna go get five 12W7's, lol. If I could get 5 12" subs for $100 each - and they'd actually slam louder than these 6 in a BP box.. I'd gladly pay 3-4 more hundred for a custom built ported box (which is what I've been getting a guesstimate from at the shop I bought the W7, for the price).

I just dont want to invest another $1500 on equipment that random people on these boards say will slam super-hard, have everything put together and put in, just to end up being unsatisfied, and having had a louder setup previously with the dual's.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4638
Registered: May-04
Alright, here's what I'd recommend.

First thing, spend the money to go and have your system metered. Most audio shops will do so. Doesn't have to be the best meter, as long as it's off consistently :-). Try to get at least an hour of their time. Anyway, compare the output of the entire system, over the entire bandwidth (play different tones, ranging somewhere from 80hz down to 20-30hz or so, perhaps in 10hz increments). See what your SPL is, take the peak, then get an average. Now, just do the W7 in itself and repeat the same. If you had the time, I'd recommend trying the W7 with all those bandpass boxes removed to see if things improve, as those bandpasses have to take up a ton of space in a Firebird and will take a large effect upon the cabin gain of the vehicle. Compare results, and remember that a 2nd W7 would net a 6db increase (as long as you applied the same power to it as you did the first). I'd bet two 13W7s properly implemented would take at least 4 of those Duals in SPL, especially over an average.

Next thing to think about is that the general 3db and 6db rules won't apply to your multiple sub combination because of the fact that there are so many of them, I'm not guessing, I'm guaranteeing you there is some degree of cancellation occuring in your system with 7 subwoofers, especially with their locations and how they're loaded in relation to one another. Just because you lose 6 subwoofers doesn't mean that you're going to lose a substantial amount of SPL. And you're going to get a substantial increase in SQ by doing so.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4639
Registered: May-04
I must admit, you are the first person that I've encountered that upgraded to a W7 and had difficulting letting go of some cheapie budget subs in a bandpass box. You, sir, are a tough cookie to crack :-).
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 4199
Registered: Nov-04
Speaker junkie?
 

Silver Member
Username: Riebread77

Post Number: 609
Registered: Jun-05
seth, you probably have a crimped wire...check to make sure that your boxes aren't laying on one of the wires...I had that problem once in the same car, in the same hatch...found where it was crimped and fixed the problem.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Gavbo211

US

Post Number: 71
Registered: Jan-05
I dunno about the rest of u but i want to see a picture of the 3 bandpass boxes in there lol. im not doubting u at all i just think it would be a cool looking setup. although i agree with what has been posted definatley upgrade to some nicer 12's or another 13W7.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 123
Registered: Jun-05
Gavin, I've posted pics before...It's not a great-looking setup (just loud). Uhmm... will check in a couple of minutes for some pics I have that show all 3 boxes. :-) I dont have any recent ones, but probably can find a couple showing the boxes..
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 124
Registered: Jun-05
Upload
Upload


This was before the W7 was in the hatch...the wires are now hidden, as well as the quarter panel put back on the inside..
 

Silver Member
Username: Southernrebel

Monroe, Louisiana USA

Post Number: 952
Registered: Mar-04
So you have all those subs firing in different directions?

You must have some insane cancelation issues man...
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 126
Registered: Jun-05
Actually, the subs on their back in that picture, are now sitting on their bottom..So all six are facing forward, just at different angles. (Dont think the angles really hurt anything, since they are uhmm...round and all. Maybe I'm wrong because the ports, dunno...But everywhere I go I get asked what I'm running in it, etc.. It's probably not as bad as you imagine.

Then again, maybe it's worse. I dont know. heh. I do have the boxes supported now, so they wont just rock forward, or to the sides, etc..and it does look better & definately more professional this way, heh.
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9898
Registered: Dec-03
ok I'm noticing that I repeat myself a lot with Seth till things sink in, so we'll stick with this approach :-)
I agree with Jon, and two 13W7s will have far less cancellation than you have right now, and far less than you'll get with a U shaped box as well. You never want to fire subs at each other that way because you'll run into all sorts of issues with the cabin and wave cancellation, which you already had a taste of with the 13W7 to give you an idea of how bad it can get.
Your problem is one I had to overcome myself when I was very young and just getting into car audio.. that's the "More is always better" approach to a loud car. Trying to figure out how to stuff more speakers into a car to make it better isn't a good approach.

I could to two or even four vented 13W7s with a 1000/1 (or one of your PG amps) on each sub, and you'd never want to go back to those bandpass boxes. Tuned properly, you can hit pretty much any frequency range you want nearly as hard as a 4th order box, while retaining the ability to play more deeply than a 4th order box can. You also end up taking less space, having fewer drivers for a more elegant less cluttered look, and less issues with absolute phasing and cancellation as a bonus.


If you're dead set on bandpass boxes (and dual, qlogic.. it doesn't matter.. its all prefab junk to be brutally honest) look at going with subs like the RE SX subs. They're about $250 each, plus $25 each if you want non standard coil configurations on the subs. They have great output and each one will take 1000 watts without batting an eye.

Personally I'd give up a slight SPL advantag to get ten times the SQ out of a system in my own car.. especially since you probably don't spend a lot of time with the volume at 100% anyway.. so you're rarely using the full output of the system.. thus you can push the W7s harder at lower volumes to get the same relative effect as having more drivers being pushed at higher volumes.

 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 133
Registered: Jun-05
Glasswolf - I'm not sure why you think you have to repeat yourself several times.. I understand you shouldnt fire subs at each other. The U shaped box, the subs would all be facing the same direction. Here are a couple .jpg's I made real fast to illustrate what I mean.

Top View:
Upload


Upload


Also - no, I'm not set on bandpass, hence why I asked what it would take to get the same volume, in a ported box, earlier. :-) And also mentioned having one custom built, heh. I'm desperate to get rid of the bandpass boxes, honestly, I just really dont want to sacrifice SPL.

I'm not sure if yer cranky, or just tired, but this is the 2nd post you've made in rapid succession belittling me, Glasswolf (first one, saying I've asked about the big 3 in several threads and you've answered in several threads? Which is untrue...now, saying you must repeat yourself a lot with me 'till things sink in', when I think you misunderstood my question to begin with. sorry to ruin your 'most recent post' markers - but if you dislike my posts, it's fairly simple to just not respond.

Do not get me wrong, I appreciate any input I get, and that's why I'm even willing to paypal you like $50 for some assistance / design idea's etc, as I'd rather pay $50, then have the setup fabricated / installed, then spend $1,000 - and learn the hard way my idea's were flawed.

Seth

(Btw:Jonathan, I'll look for a local shop that I can do your idea at, and let you know the results..thanks for the tip.)
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 135
Registered: Jun-05
http://www.realmofexcursion.com/videos/Various/dual12.1.wmv

They edited the video however, and FF'd through the part of it shaking my bowflex.. ;)
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9936
Registered: Dec-03
the repeating comment was in regard to this thread specifically.. like my saying two or three times that you had a sub out of phase, and you swearing they were all fine. Eventually, you found out what? Ah! A sub was out of phase! Ok that aside, I've also been saying you can do just as well just using two or four of the W7 subs in a good vented box. Especially since you want this for listening not strictly for SPL use.. but I figured if I just keep saying the same thing over and over you'll come around and give it a try.
Yeah I was in a bad mood this morning but I get tired of having to repeat myself and when I quoit doing it and go to a new thread, people just hijack other threads begging me to go answer them.. or they bump bump bump in the thread fifty times to keep it at the top of the list like I don't have new post markers for every new post in the forum. It gets a little wearing on the nerves.


If it helps I'll just leave this one for Jon to handle. He has more patience than I do I guess.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 136
Registered: Jun-05
Glass, I know how it goes.. I see people even posting threads with your name asking for help..

I never swore that the W7 was in phase..please check back, I had said that all the bandpass boxes were in phase, and even commented immediately that you might be right about the phase issue, and that I would try it as soon as I got a chance. You didnt need to repeat that more than once, heh.

Unfortunately, I cannot afford two more W7's..let alone 4, + the power supplies for each... (buying from an authorized dealer, that would be around $4800ish if I got 4 more PG amps from the internet) + the price of the box...

Would two 15" RE MT's be louder in a well-built box (not sure how much air space I'd need?) Or any other higher-quality reasonably priced speaker? (Do NOT want to go kicker L7's, yuck).
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 4209
Registered: Nov-04
There's a post already on RE MT under subs. I can tell you one thing, MT is loud. With a correct box, you will also get SQ.
It's half the price of JLW7, so you shouldn't have any problem getting 3 or 4 of them. Each one of them can handle 2500w rms, everyday use, and probably 5000w on periodic use.
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9945
Registered: Dec-03
what about going with one more W7 and another PG amp?
two subs should be all you need.
or you can go with SX or MT subs too.. the MT is a beast but it needs a ton of power to really shine
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 137
Registered: Jun-05
Hmm...is one of those 12" W7's in the high output box louder than 13 W7 in a slot ported, anyone know? Think I might see if the audio shop will let me throw in a 12" in a HO box and a 1000.1 amp to test it out with my setup and see how it sounds...

And those MT's do sound good... but... damn, I think I'd end up spending the money saved from buying a pair of W7's with two PG amps, on the extra amps I would need to power the MT's.. I'm thinking though that I'll save up until I have enough for one of the two setups, as I've gone through the entire "settling for less to get it right now" and wishing I had just saved up a couple hundred more and gotten what I'd have been happy with.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 138
Registered: Jun-05
By the way, earlier had said I hadnt tested the bass boost yet.. Well, I tested it.

Nice.

All I can say. (Only turned it up around 20% or so...definately dosnt need more than that...dosnt even really need that).
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9954
Registered: Dec-03
two 13W7s with 1Kw each is really more than almost anybody needs for a drivable sort of car used for music listening purposes.. those will blow ya out of the car without much effort unless you drive something like a school bus.. lol

The older I get, the more I love simple systems..
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 139
Registered: Jun-05
So, I just went and had my system tested, I hit just shy of 145 dB. I'm taking all the 12's out, and am going to have it tested again in the morning with only the 13W7. (had it metered dB drag rules style.. actually a competition there tomorrow), and my loudest tone was 49 hz / 50 hz.

They recomended that I take all the 12's/extra amp out, and have it metered with just the W7, because based on the setup, the W7 alone might even be louder without all the cancellation going on.

Seth
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4660
Registered: May-04
That one W7 should be able to hit in the 140s being slot ported, but that will depend on the mic they're using, hopefully the new termlab for the most accurate results.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 140
Registered: Jun-05
I do believe it was the new termlab, it had two suction cups and they stuck it on the interior passenger side of my windshield. Not positive, though.
 

Silver Member
Username: Basshead86

Ocala, FL USA

Post Number: 931
Registered: Aug-05
i wish it was tomorrow morning already!

i wanna know what that W7 hits.:-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4665
Registered: May-04
It can be a huge variance, it's going to depend a lot on the car itself and the level of deadening used, a subs location, mic location. That thing will probably get pretty loud, though. They'll get really loud in a Honda CRX :-).
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 141
Registered: Jun-05
Jon, the W7 is in a custom box that lays down into the cargo area beneath my hatch. The mic will be attached to my front windshield, passenger side. I have a shitload of edead on the entire surface of the car, except for ceiling, (as you can see in the pics I posted), and am using a Phoenix Gold Xenon 1200 watt RMS amp (pushes 1200 RMS anywhere from 1-4 ohms, CEA rated).
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 142
Registered: Jun-05
If it even hits within 3 dB of my system with all the 12's, I think I'm just going to leave the 12's out, and probably have the place that's doing the monitoring, build me something custom and drop a RE MT into it.. (They sell RE at this shop...never seen a retailer that sells RE gear. Have the 18" on display, was surprised, to say the least...)
 

Silver Member
Username: Basshead86

Ocala, FL USA

Post Number: 933
Registered: Aug-05
how much does the Esotar 240 and the System 360 cost?
 

Silver Member
Username: Basshead86

Ocala, FL USA

Post Number: 934
Registered: Aug-05
they probably just buy a whole bunch of them... but how would they make any profit if they have to buy them for what you could buy them for online.

unless they have dealer cost terms. but i thought RE only sold from their website.

now i'm confused:-(
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4667
Registered: May-04
"how much does the Esotar 240 and the System 360 cost?"

I think MSRP of the 360 is around $1300, Esotar 240 is around $1600-$1700. It's been a while, though.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 143
Registered: Jun-05
The guy said that they were an authorized dealer.. They have like banners of the "RE" inside the shop, etc... Said that they were the only shop other than the Vegas facility he knew of that sold RE.
 

Silver Member
Username: Basshead86

Ocala, FL USA

Post Number: 938
Registered: Aug-05
why would the 360 cost less?

the 360 uses the mw170 8" woofer, a midbass driver, and the md100 sumthin tweeter.

the 240 uses the mw160 7" woofer, no midbass driver, and the top-of-the-line md330 1.1" tweeter.

is the 330 1.1" tweeter the reason the 2-way set is more expensive?
 

Silver Member
Username: Basshead86

Ocala, FL USA

Post Number: 939
Registered: Aug-05
where the HECK did Jonathan's post go???
 

Silver Member
Username: Basshead86

Ocala, FL USA

Post Number: 940
Registered: Aug-05
whoa......jonathan's post disappered, "I think MSRP of the 360 is around $1300, Esotar 240 is around $1600-$1700. It's been a while, though."

and then when i refreshed the page again it came back.


what is wrong with my computer!? lol
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4668
Registered: May-04
Yup. That tweeter in itself is extremely expensive, one of the most expensive tweeters in the world. Once you hear it, you'll become a believer :-).
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9964
Registered: Dec-03
I've actually been giving thought to trying a pair of the esotar tweeters with the system 360. see how they work together.

didn't I mention earlier somewhere in this thread that the six twelves may be bausing a lot of cancellation and actually hurting the system performance more than they help, with the W7 in there too? For some reason, I have this vague feeling of deja vu :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4678
Registered: May-04
If you can fit them, they work well if you match the level with the rest of the system. The tweeters are as big as the 5.25" mid is :-).
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9972
Registered: Dec-03
my car is bigger than some mobile homes I think. that's not much of a problem.
:-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Tdbdadrummer

Post Number: 115
Registered: Aug-05
So...instead of bickering and everything. Why don't you guys donate to the "Tyler needs a pair of JL 13W7's, and a couple of JL 1000/1's." This way, I could prove Glass's theory true, Seth would believe it before he goes and buys another JL, and I would have an AWESOME system! I think that sounds like a great idea IMO...
 

Silver Member
Username: Ucfsaxman

Oviedo/orlando, Fl

Post Number: 126
Registered: May-05
Seth what did the one W7 get on the mic?
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 145
Registered: Jun-05
Ok. Did multiple tests today... And got my amplifiers tuned MUCH better (the one pushing the W7 AND the hifonics). Anyone elses W7 have a wierd smell? Not necessarily burning voice coil..but a definite odor? Mine is still pretty new so I'm hoping it goes away with time.. ;)

W7 alone:
Loudest Hz: 43
dB: 139.5

Six Duals:
Loudest Hz: 49-50ish
dB: 143.8

Combined:
Loudest Hz: 48
dB: 146.7

Getting the amp fine-tuned really helped things a lot, also, they recomended slanting the subs in the back more, so they were firing more up-forward instead of just straight forward, to point in a similar direction as the W7. After doing all this and working with things a couple of hours.. Wow.

It's honestly amazing the difference in noticeable volume between the 144.3 I hit yesterday, and the 146.7 I hit today.. just by changing some settings and slightly modifying the direction of two of the dual boxes...

So...think I'm going to keep this setup, until I can actually save up to probably get either another W7, or thinking maybe even a pair of 10W7's, or a pair of 12" RE MT's.. Dont want to settle for less than my final goal..

Thanks Glasswolf/Jonathan/Isaac. :-) What's really crazy is, not only did I gain over 2 full dB, but the actual sound of the bass is easily twice as good, the directional thing they said really helped, as I guess cancellation not only makes it not as loud, but also was making it a bit muddy? I dont know..not even going to pretend to understand all the variables at play in my car..but I do appreciate the help/input/idea's you three gave me/suggested. Also, didnt get to the tournament today.. :-/ But with my current setup, I'd be in the Super Sreet Class 5+..think in the future, I'm going to ditch the 12's, put in the back seat (cause no mods to seats etc are aloud in lower classes), and just compete in the Street B class.. (up to one 15", or two 12's)

Thanks again.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 146
Registered: Jun-05
By the way - the car was running for these tests.. I guess in Street B Class you use just the battery? I dont know, but in super street 5+ you can use the car turned on.. So they were getting a 14.4 volt charge (held the RPM at 2000 during the testing, max aloud in dB drag)
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4691
Registered: May-04
Glad you got good results :-). Not too surprising, but impressive that the W7 hit only 4.3db lower than all 6 of those duals, and at an enclosure disadvantage, from an SPL standpoint anyway. Add another and you'll be knocking on the same SPL as all of those duals, with much improved SQ. I'd do that, but that's just personal opinion. What is your W7's ported box tuned to?
 

scb
Unregistered guest
Six 12s + a 13W7 and only 146.7 dB.

I've seen better than that with two 12s.

His system probably cost more than yours though.
 

Gold Member
Username: Invain

Michigan United States

Post Number: 3586
Registered: Aug-04
I hope your not considering competing with your setup? Hey, 146.7 db's is great, but wouldn't you get your azz handed to you if your competing with 7 subs? People can hit 146.7 with 1 sub...
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4696
Registered: May-04
You've got to remember that this isn't some old AC mic. To put things in perspective, people hitting 150s on the AC mic, will hit low 140s on the new termlab. It's that much of a drop. Most shops haven't upgraded mics because they are expensive. It's possible to hit that with two twelves, but they likely won't do it when using a SQ tune. It's also dependant on the car type, really small hatchbacks and compact cars with the rear deck vented or the back seat down can do really well in SPL. Honda CRXs are a good example, as were the early 90s Mustang hatchbacks and such.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4697
Registered: May-04
Usually, SPL is accomplished by

1) Having a good base car to do it with
2) A box tune slightly lower than the peak cabin gain (resonant frequency) of the vehicle
3) Everything is BIG. Big boxes, big slot ports (big enough to stick your head into), big amplifiers with big power output

The rest falls in line with proper positioning, box construction, basically factors that are beyond the scope of an audio forums' recommendations.
 

Gold Member
Username: Invain

Michigan United States

Post Number: 3594
Registered: Aug-04
Where does it say that he used a Termlab? If those are tl numbers, than I'll give him more credit.

I still think he's an absolute fool for trying to compete with a W7 and 6 Duals...
 

scb
Unregistered guest
Vans are a good SPL vehicle too. Perhaps better than than the smaller cars IMO.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jonathan_f

GA USA

Post Number: 4701
Registered: May-04
"Where does it say that he used a Termlab? If those are tl numbers, than I'll give him more credit."

Just assuming he's right. Plus the fact that he stated that they have competitions there, and that they go by db drag rules, I'd just guess their mic is up to date.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 148
Registered: Jun-05
Yes, they used a termlab. the west coast semifinals are there on the 18th. Here's the link.

http://www.termpro.com/asp/members2.asp?Who=13&MemberID=8094
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 149
Registered: Jun-05
SCB, the person that won the competition in the class I'd compete in today (Street Class B - if I removed all the 12's and replaced the back seat for the event, which is no sweat..) hit 151 dB with two 12's. Then again, he's also running 10,000 watts using 2 different amps, heh.. All six of my 12's, are run from the hifonics, so around 1100-1200 rms to them, and 1200 to my W7... Keep in mind, I dont own a stereo shop, and am not sponsored...heh heh.

I have some money to burn, yes, but not THAT much lol...but I also have a wife.. (I.E. not enough money to burn to go nuts on 5,000 watt amps, lol)
 

Gold Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 9998
Registered: Dec-03
if you hit in the 146dBA range with a pair of 13W7s and 200 watts of PG amps, and it's tuned for SQ, you should clean up in IASCA events as a novice. You'll do very well for SPL, but you'll slaughter the SPL kids in SQ scores.
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 150
Registered: Jun-05
Going to try something a bit later today.. Going to wire my W7 parallel, to make it a .75 ohm load, and hook it up to my HiFonics, and adjust the gain so hopefully it wont be making it unstable (It's 1 ohm stable..I'm thinking with the gain turned slightly down, that it should be just fine at this impedance).

Then use the Phoenix Gold amp to power the six 12's..

My reasoning is... The Duals end up being a 1.33 ohm load.. at 2 ohms, the hifonics is 1100, at 1 ohm, it's 1600. So I'm figuring that ends up being roughly 1430 RMS (so they claim, but I'm pretty sure the Brutus are overrated). Probably ends up being around 1100ish RMS in reality.

Now, if I hook up the hifonics to the W7 at the .75 ohm load, and adjust the gain carefully, should be able to get the full RMS of the amp, which I heard was around 1300-1400 RMS realistically (again, 1600 claimed RMS) going to the W7. It can handle up to 1500 watts RMS before the warranty is void.

Then, also, not only would the W7 be getting more overall RMS wattage, but the six 12's, would be getting 1200 RMS, since the PG amp puts out 1200 watts RMS at anywhere betweeen 1 and 4 ohms..

---------------------

Also - GlassWolf/Jonathan/Isaac do you know any subs comparable to the W7 in SQL, that perhaps are a little friendlier when it comes to wiring? Something that could be dropped down to 1 ohm, and use the Hifonics for it? I know the MT's come in a variety of configs, but only with .7 and 1.4 ohm VC's... Would like to get *A* sub, or even a pair of subs, that I can config to 1 ohm to get full use of the HF amp, and then be able to spend more on the setup etc, from the cash saved with not requiring a new amplifier..

-------------------

Isaac, a question for you (blah this post is getting long, lol.)

If I were to get a 15" MT, with dual 1.4 ohm VC's, how well do you think a pair of the Brutus 1605's would do going one to each VC? Would that be enough power for the 15? And would it be louder, to just get a pair of 12's, and run one Brutus 1605 to each sub?

Seth
 

Silver Member
Username: Fandim

Reno, Nevada United State...

Post Number: 151
Registered: Jun-05
Ok - another question..

When first turning on my system, it's nearly ear-splitting. To the point where I simply cannot take being in the vehicle, and when I was hitting at the dB testing, it didnt really bother me...

It's like this for about 5-10 minutes, and it (at least it seems like) gradually gets quieter. granted, it's still VERY loud, but it dosnt cause that pain like it does when I first turn it on.

It's not the voltage, because I can completely turn the system off, and make sure hte battery is more than 100%, etc.. and make sure the alt is running at the 14.4 volts and such, and turn it back on a few minutes later, and it's still not that "woah" when I first turn it on.

Since I know it's not an electric current problem, (also have 20 farads worth of caps, just so no one suggests I need a cap) I was wondering if...

A. It's just my ears adjusting to the sound.. And after a break of a couple hours, they've reverted...

or

B. Could this be a heat issue? Would my amplifier getting hot, reduce it's efficiency to a level where the volume of the system would be noticably quieter?

or

C. <fill>

Seth
 

Gold Member
Username: Carguy

Post Number: 4235
Registered: Nov-04
Don't do it. Hifonics is not a quality amp at all. It's okay for Kicker/Sony subs, but not the W7.
On paper, .75ohms is close enough to 1ohm, but it's enough to blow the amp or the sub. If you had an amp like Zapco/Orion HCCA, then sure you can take your chances, but not Hifonics. It will NOT handle it. Plus, they overrated their amps anyhow.
The MT VCs were suppose to be 1.4ohms, but mine was exactly 1ohm. So it worked out great for me.
If you have the space, I'd go with 2 12" MTs. If not, 1 15" MT should be enough to handle 1200w rms per VC.
Whatever you do, DO NOT use cheap amps for it. As you get higher in power, the clipping/distortion gets magnified. At 200w, it might not be much to blow a sub, but at 1200w or higher, it will destory it.
I would recommend you first get a great amp that will put out the power you need without clipping/distorting. Hifonics aren't one of them.
There is Zapco C2K 9 amp on sale for $1000. That will be an excellent match for W7 or MT.
All I can say is, you will not be able to use the MT for everyday driving. It is just too loud.
« Previous Thread Next Thread »



Main Forums

Today's Posts

Forum Help

Follow Us