Designing for Imaging & Stoundstage

 

Silver Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY USA

Post Number: 236
Registered: Oct-04
This question goes out to all of the accomplished and/or aspiring speaker designers & spec-heads in our midst.

· How does one go about designing a speaker as it relates to qualities such as imaging & soundstage?
· Are speakers that accomplish these things well "happy accidents"?
· Are these desirable traits in your opinion?
· Are there trade secrets that accomplish these things?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6605
Registered: May-04


Two words: point source.



How these feats are accomplished is not a matter of "do this and that". Since there are more than an adequate number of speakers of all types, shapes and sizes which can reproduce the "soundstage" we assume is in the recording, how this is accomplished is as varied as the many ways designers find to put together a speaker. Surely what is done with an electrostatic panel is not the same as with dynamic drivers.


Unless we take the simplest concept of "reproducing what is in the recording" as the path to success, we will find there are no "secrets" to achieving the stated goal. Broad dispersion or narrow dispersion. Each has its proponents just as each has its detractors. Even in the simple pursuit of verisimilitude there is substantial disagreement as to what consitutes accurate reproduction. I contend the signal is corrupted as soon as it passes through any type of transducer (microphone) which imposes its own character on the waveform. The recorded signal is therefore no longer an accurate reproduction of the performance before we ever get to hear it, no matter what we do on the other end.


And, of course, we have to agree on what constitutes acceptable imaging and soundstaging. That debate could go on forever. The recording engineers all seem to have different concepts of accuracy in that area. Most listeners have different concepts of what is acceptable. Personal experience tells me the same recording can sound very dissimilar in terms of imaging and soundstaging over two different speaker systems. That is most particularly true since stereo cannot reproduce any significant amount of height information. How then can the depth and width information be taken seriously when the third dimension is all but absent?


For those who listen to mono recordings, the failures of stereo reproduction are all too obvious. The comb filter effects and phase distortions of a minimum of two microphones create a soundstage that is far from the reality of many performances. Adding more recording microphones does not make the situation any better. And, for many of us, adding more channels to the playback schematic also makes matters worse.


The question then becomes not how do we get the "image" out of the system at the playback end; but, rather, how do the recording engineers put the image in there in the first place.





 

Silver Member
Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA USA

Post Number: 644
Registered: Dec-03
I've never gone into a design thinking "how am I going to get good imaging and soundstaging?". Those should be the natural results of a good design. My process, these days, begins with trying to recognize a demand in the market and trying to fill it as best I can. If I select the correct drivers, design a good enclosure, drive myself to the brink of insanity tweaking the crossover, and get all the pieces to come together I'm going to have good imaging and soundstaging as a result.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6611
Registered: May-04


Sure, make it sound easy!
 

Silver Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 370
Registered: Dec-04
That's it?
Pshaw!

Hehe

Hey Jan, you made the news!
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2005/11/17/1311106-ap.html
 

Silver Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 371
Registered: Dec-04
Heres the new one.
 

Silver Member
Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA USA

Post Number: 645
Registered: Dec-03
While the Dallasauras is ubiquitous in Texas, especially West Texas, I can say that Jan is not one.
 

Silver Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 374
Registered: Dec-04
saw Dallas and Jan popped into my head.
Boring on the road, no offence intended, of course.
I shall further refrain.

Jamie

Unless it's REALLY funny
 

Gold Member
Username: T_bomb25

Dayton, Ohio United States

Post Number: 1250
Registered: Jun-05
Very well stated Jan,and your right Tim a good design should be able to image and soundstage natuarlly.Companies like Audio Phycic set out to make that a priority above all else,and still they are not one of the best I've heard at this aspect of musical reproduction,but is it a aspect of musical reproduction?Or is just a audiopthile artcifact?Their are unanswered questions to be answered on this subject,as we all know their are 2 sides,2 camps if you will on this subject,but thats a whole other can of worms.The Audio Phycic Virgo 3 for instance,is supposed to be one of the top 3 soundstaging champions in the buisness,but from the my experiance,gets totally destroyed by a pair of Pro Ac Tabblelite Refferance 8,by a long and rediculous margin.So if a company like Audio Phycic who puts soundstaging and imaging above anythingelse in their design,is it wrong to design a speaker on those principals above all else?
 

Silver Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY USA

Post Number: 237
Registered: Oct-04
Are imaging & staging different from neutrality? Are all of these descriptions different aspects of accuracy?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6615
Registered: May-04


"I call him Jan," said Ross McMillan, the ponytailed sculptor who worked with Polcyn for months to construct the lifelike model. "When you look at his face, doesn't he look like a Jan?"


Very funny.


 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6616
Registered: May-04


Actually, you can't have imaging without accuracy but you can have inaccuracy with imaging. Once again it depends on your definition of both.


 

Silver Member
Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA USA

Post Number: 646
Registered: Dec-03
I've heard good imaging from speakers that weren't necessarily accurate or neutral.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavincumm

Post Number: 363
Registered: Feb-05
I might get shot for this but certain Bose speakers (201 when tweeter pointed inward) can image well, but they are far from neutral.

I have to agree with tim on that one.
 

Gold Member
Username: T_bomb25

Dayton, Ohio United States

Post Number: 1256
Registered: Jun-05
Well Jan,you know where I stand with this,on the otherhand I have heard speakes that image good,but are not neutral,and accurate.But I've said before,you a good,and imaging to create a believable midrange.
 

Silver Member
Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA USA

Post Number: 647
Registered: Dec-03
"I might get shot for this...."

Hold yer fahr men!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 6633
Registered: May-04


http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=121.0
 

Silver Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 418
Registered: Dec-04
Jan has more tools in his belt than Batman
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